dsoqueerious

It is curious to me that no one ever actually comments on Jeremiah’s new look in the show. Aside from one “pale imitation of Jerome” comment from Jim (the comedy of which kills me every time), it’s so irrelevant to everything else that’s going on. There are bombs around the city and this freak just blew the clocktower, who gives a shit if he’s wearing lipstick and has dyed his hair? Because he is definitely wearing makeup now, since his lips seem redder than in the graveyard (although that scene is admittedly pretty washed out…). I also love that he was vain enough to dye his hair, knowing that he probably wouldn’t be too intimidating looking like a ginger snowman.

It has been suggested by many people smarter than me that the gas provided a sort of queer awakening for Jeremiah - as he lost his inhibitions surrounding violence, he also stopped feeling the need to hide, in general, but also in regards to his queerness. Perhaps he played around with his mother’s makeup as a child, less and less as the years went on and masculinity forced its way in, before leaving it behind completely when he left the circus. He’s absolutely more prim and put together after the gas, and it’s no secret that he gained a certain level of self confidence after being ‘set free’.

Comparing the Jeremiah of ‘Mandatory Brunch Meeting’ and that of ‘Ace Chemicals’, they’re essentially completely different characters. He’s entirely lost any and all inhibitions, and is not afraid to be feminine to a degree - wearing much more makeup than before, as well as donning glittery suits and swinging his knife about without a care in the world. A lot of fun queer-coded villain vibes.

Much can be said about the writing between seasons, but S4 Jeremiah is much more understated and realistic, while S5 is more cartoonish and playful. Even in the makeup styles, initially Jeremiah seems to be accentuating his new features without appearing any more unnatural than he already does, perhaps a bit of lipstick, but that’s really it. In season 5 on the other hand (assuming that the prolonged effects of the gas hasn’t changed his appearance over time), Jeremiah is putting on a full clown face every day, on top of his already white skin. The brows, the eyeshadow - the fact that his hair is green now where it was black before, (i know there’s that one very cool shot from the end of season 4, where he looks very Joker-y, but i assume that’s more of a lighting choice and mise un scen than diagetically happening). He’s performing now, enjoying the art in a manner that is a lot more Jerome than what we’ve previously seen of Jeremiah. Ecco starts wearing clown paint to emulate him. And that love of makeup probably started with his mother.

Other matters:

He definitely figured out the father situation too, long before Jerome was ever told.

I like to think that a Post-Gotham Jeremiah/Joker would think fondly of Jerome, and have some level of gratitude for giving him the life he has now. Maybe reading his diary was what pushed Jeremiah over the edge of violence in the end, ‘well, if he thinks be can do that, i just have to show i can do it better’. Perhaps he showed more appreciation for Jerome’s schemes than he let on, finally able to see the chaotic mind at work. You can’t tell me that a modern Joker wouldn’t at least respect his brother’s visionary.

I kind of head-canon that Jeremiah has fleeting moments of lucidity, few and far between, over the years, where he really feels his sins and guilt, where the old (pre gas) Jeremiah slips through the cracks a bit. Maybe in the tears and confusion he visits Jerome’s grave every so often and reminisces on how badly he hurt his brother. He probably doesn’t remember these feelings once they’re done, and doesn’t like to think about it because it unsettles him. Bruce might witness one such moment and it causes him to hold out hope of rehabilitation, right up until Jeremiah kills Jason, after which he closes that off.

Getting really self indulgent here, but I adore the thought of Jerome and Jeremiah not really knowing their birthdate - Lila was too drunk of unbothered to remember - so they, at age four or so, decide that April Fool’s is their new birthday. The twins celebrated together until they were ten, even when tensions were high, and in the years following Jerome kept on, maybe wishing every year that his brother would return. Jeremiah probably abandoned the tradition, never actually forgetting but refusing to put any action into it. Perhaps he picks it up again after Jerome dies the first time, as a sort of guilt ridden apology. Maybe after the timeskip he takes a cupcake to Jerome’s grave whenever he’s out of Arkham for the beginning of April. Talking to a grave and bouncing ideas off of it doesn’t sound too out of character for a post canon Joker, even if he has abandoned the Jeremiah persona. Perhaps he gets picked up by Batman, or, better yet, the GCPD, and has to spin some lie or scheme to prevent them from thinking him sentimental. Ecco would know about the secret day, and Bruce could probably guess without being told, meanwhile Jim is splitting hairs wondering what brutal scheme is being cooked up that Joker would return to his ringleader brother’s grave on April Fool’s. Jeremiah never audibly tells anyone, because he doesn’t care, really, he’s not that person anymore, a stupid made up celebration doesn’t matter to him - but still he keeps quiet. On the rare occasion that he does think about it, he wants to keep it to himself.

Also would like to specify that I think rather than the code/algorithm determining things for him (how he acts and how he reacts) HE is the code/algorithm — if that makes sense. Even if he is just acting based on what his past self would have done that’s still… himself? AND even if it is a ‘simulation of life’ holograms have sort of reached that fantastical sci-fi stage where they have emotions, they are *living and sentient*. Technological life becomes so complex and advanced that it is essentially the same as organic life.

Obviously there are arguments against this — and there are in-universe signs that holographic human life isn’t viewed as on-par with organic human life (especially concerning the space corps directives and how organic human life is prioritised). But I think there is also a level of intrinsic base respect a lot of holograms would receive because they are “dead people walking”, rather than randomised AI models for example.

This is still based on their life before obviously, and is sort of ‘in spite’ of them being different *now*, but it’s close enough to human that the odd person probably wouldn’t blink. At least, that’s what’s implied from the first episode given you’ve got a holographic newsreader for Groovy Channel 27 and holograms seem to be fairly normalised (at least on deep-space faring ships).

I don’t think there is a situation where Lister in particular would view holograms as lesser-than — especially considering how he treats Kryten compared with other characters, like helping him find his individuality and break his programming. Lister still definitely benefits from Kryten’s programming, don’t get me wrong, and it’s not like they dive that much into the ethics of having him endlessly butler for them — but I see it as Lister accepting Kryten for a quirk of personality rather than explicitly “using him” for being a mechanoid.

Lister has to reassert to Rimmer that he is worth something more than once. I’m pulling from “Me^2” here where he quite literally states “you’re not a nothing”, then of course there’s the Moonlight speech from TPL. Lister treats everyone aboard with the same respect and courtesy that he would any human person — and views them as such. Regardless of the fact they *aren’t* actually human. I figure the only reason he would treat Rimmer differently is because he’s *Rimmer*, not a hologram!

I’m sure there are concerns about the fact that Rimmer is simulated — does he *really* mean this? does he *really* feel this? But largely it seems to be Rimmer existentialising over this and Lister pulling him out of it. Because he genuinely seems not to care — not in a negative way, but just that it doesn’t so much matter to him whether Rimmer is alive or holographic. Because he came to truly care for him when he was… well, dead! Plus, Lister is often very lighthearted about Rimmer’s death, sometimes this is a bit offbeat but I think that’s just more evidence, for example: “you’re *dead* but you’re not dead-dead” from the first episode. He still sees him as living. Death’s not the hangup it used to be, after all.

To Rimmer I’m sure its probably very strange to be around someone who acts like basically nothing has happened when he has literally just died. But on a ship with a computer that is also self-aware, where they’ve got a sentient (or at least, appearing ‘aware’) toaster and the skutters that seem to be randomly imbued with distinctive personalities it does make sense. Despite Red Dwarf being so technically devoid of life it is also weirdly teeming with it (especially later episodes with seemingly sentient dispensary machines?).

In terms of Rimster, I think any relationship there would follow the same pattern. Rimmer’s worries about his existence lumped in with his self-loathing, and then Lister who treats him the same, because he basically thinks of him the same.

It’s hard to divorce them from the circumstances of Rimmer being dead because that’s how we see them for most of the show and it is tied to the drive-plate incident which is the impetus for the show itself. But if Rimmer were to have lived through it (also put in stasis, perhaps) — and this is a boring suggestion — but I think they would be almost exactly the same as they are currently. With the friction of their two personalities and different outstanding viewpoints giving way to an unusual friendship and then something more as time goes on and they can’t really seem to disentangle from each other.

Lister wouldn’t be able to prank or irritate Rimmer in the same way he could when he was soft-light (though this might mean they’d be more physical oops) and Rimmer wouldn’t have that additional chip on his shoulder about y’know, literally dying. Also he wouldn’t have that disconnect and borderline body horror element of being intangible. I think Rimmer’s cowardice in this concept wouldn’t be treated so harshly if he were alive, especially being ‘the second human alive’. And these facts could be conducive to them actually becoming friends a lot sooner. Obviously this is all speculation but it’s really fun to think about!

Other than these facts and them physically being able to touch each other from the start (you can imagine where that would have went). Their dynamic in my mind would be the same as it is in the show.

I’m not entirely sure how they record the data that is used to create their holograms — so I’m gonna base this on the very vague use of the Hologram Simulation Suite in “Thanks for the Memory” where it’s just referred to as a brain download or somesuch and apparently you can just make a copy and offload your brain’s contents onto a disc. Howsoever Rimmer felt about Lister prior to his death was definitely recorded, whatever maelstrom of disdain, kindling friendship, unexpected rapport, outright distaste or perceived superiority that was. I see Red Dwarf as them — as corny as it sounds — falling into love over the journey that is the show but its entirely possible (based on the vagaries of the tech) that any aesthetic attraction or buried sentiment he felt pre-death was carried over considering he keeps his supposed feelings for Yvonne McGruder for example. Another BUT though, even if he wasn’t into Lister pre-death, it’s clear that his views on people, while still based on his ‘template’, aren’t forcibly stagnant otherwise we’d just have Season I Rimmer forever. Again, it’s been shown that he has the same capacity for growth as a human being.

I think ultimately it is the circumstances they were in that meant they were able to garner affection for each-other, rather than whether Rimmer was alive or a hologram.

I’m curious how it would have all played out if Lister was the hologram and Rimmer had been put in stasis though. Another AU to think about!

Anyway, that’s all folks — thank you so much for inspiring me like this I had a wonderful time thinking about it :)))

I think it helps that both situations have a level of inherent falseness and, although it’s framed as a somewhat selfish action, Rimmer knows Lister wouldn’t want to be living a lie. I would definitely deem it as saving him.

Although he’s seen to be “richer and happier”, it’s important that we were shown a glimpse of younger Lister earlier, not just for set-up but because of his moral standing. This better life for Lister has him literally become a cryptofascist, he’s having the royal family over for a visit! He’s the 1% a-hundred times over.

What he yearned for at the start was a normal life outside of the Space Corps; a job, a family… *People*. With the timeslide alteration he ends up in a mansion cut off from the very people he misses (moved brick by brick to get away from his neighbours!), penned in with staff that only appear to tolerate him.

It’s just plain wrong! On the surface it’s what anybody would want, to be disgustingly rich and famous. Just like, on the surface, fulfilling his father’s heteronormative copy-paste template of a family is what Rimmer thinks he wants/thinks he *should* want.

But both ‘lives’ ultimately ring hollow because it turns them both into something they aren’t. They don’t need these things to be happy! Lister just isn’t Lister and Rimmer is *miserable*.

In restoring the original timeline it also saves Lister from having essentially deleted the Cat and Kryten from existence. If there was any possible way of Lister knowing he had caused such a thing he would have done anything in his power to fix it. Since he can’t, Rimmer sort of goes to do it for him; saving Lister from himself. Albeit in part because he doesn’t want to be alone, but I don’t think that diminishes anything.