Think For Yourself

Right?! Same. Their relationship was 100% not healthy and not normal. It’s not a cultural norm either and that brush-off always drives me nuts. It’s a hyperbolic and intentionally toxic exaggeration of the norm. There is definitely enmeshment! But since when was enmeshment and codependency considered healthy? Haha. Qingxuan literally needs to make him/herself smaller and loses their free will. It’s gross.

I’m sure I have more theories because at the time I was only one step away from purchasing a cork board and some red yarn for a full on conspiracy map. But it’s been so long!

I recall going over He Xuan and the Shi Brothers timeline with a fine tooth comb and finding holes. Some things that I’ve come up with some blanks:

Shi Qingxuan was said to have a fate of wealth. Full stop. This is a fact. Born into wealth and privilege, living comfortably.

But He Xuan? He was born unfortunate. Since day 1 nothing worked in his favor.

The Shi family was fighting over inheritance money so Shi Wudu whisked Shi Qingxuan away to some random mountain so HE could cultivate (With who? Why there? So close to He Xuan..) and relatively quickly, the Reverend finds Shi Qingxuan.

Shi Qingxuan is again whisked off to the Middle Court for protection.

Suddenly.. things start drastically improving in He Xuans life. Like a complete 180°. He’s gaining wealth and prestige and things are going great! What a windfall!

Yet.. Shi Qingxuan has become an alcoholic and a layabout.

Again, it’s been a WHILE for me.. but I don’t think I found the answers to this question and settled on the idea that it was always Shi Qingxuans fate that was too monstrous to swallow and never Shi Wudus. So monstrous that someone other than the Reverend had to tamp it down. Disburse it. Dilute it.

That, or it was He Xuans which was the monstrous fate. He Xuan was the actual threat. Someone who wouldn’t bend or fall in line. And Shi Wudu’s greed and inferiority complex was used to manipulate him into doing what the Reverend couldn’t.

If it was always/only Shi Wudus fate that was so monstrous, and Shi Qingxuan only had a “normal fate of wealth” then why would the Reverend be so obsessed with Shi Qingxuan from the start?

Why did He Xuans fate suddenly become prosperous and Qingxuans suddenly disastrous?

I kiiiiiida think that the only thing monstrous about Shi Wudus.. was his ego. I think he tampered with his brother and He Xuans fate for personal profit and not benevolence. I think someone told him some pretty lies and got him to do their bidding. Maybe “your brother will ascend and leave you behind but you can ascend too, just do xyz” ?? Or something?

Did he strip Shi Qingxuans fate and give it to He Xuan because he thought that was the only way to keep him safe? Then take it back once Shi Qingxuan came of age?

Or was He Xuan always supposed to ascend as Wind Master after overcoming so many adversities, and Shi Qingxuan always supposed to be wealth (but was plucked at the root during the inheritance battle?) and, having already been stripped of the fate prior.. was then given He Xuans actual fate of Wind.

Ok this is a lot. One more time it’s been a while so my thoughts are scattered but I also vaguely remember He Xuan had a lot to do with the ocean. Wasn’t it a port town and didnt his wealth come from ships?

Yet Wudu is WATER and WEALTH? (While Qingxuan is destitute and needs to share a shrine to get donations, and He Xuan haunts the sea as a ghost capsizing boats and eating the souls of sailors) what a fishy coincidence! Always seemed sus to me.

So yeah, maybe the only thing “monstrous” about Shi Wudus fate was his ego. Maybe he’s an actual monster.

“Everything I have today, I fought for! I will fight for what I don’t have. I will change my fortune if fate denies me! My fate is up to me and not the heavens!” Shi Wudu’s last words, sans manic cackling and goodbye to his brother —Vol. 4, Ch.65

And maybe his need to keep Shi Qingxuan so small and obedient and beneath him started way before they ever knew anything about fates.

But just look at how many times Xie Lian says “I’m okay” or “It’s fine” when it so very clearly is not okay or fine. It’s a running theme of the book to be brushing off trauma and pain as just another Tuesday. Trying not to rant but there is a lot of disagreement about the book having an unreliable narrator and I’m firmly in the camp that it does. Both Xie Lians narrations and the separated 3rd person narrations (it slides between the two) are misleading. Soooo many times Xie Lian would be utterly devastated and the narrator would say “Xie Lian was okay with it. He understood.” Like WHAT? WHAT?

And this actually does confuse a lot of people into believing it was okay. Taking everything at face value without thinking about it critically. Which is why I think a lot of opinions are so divergent around Shi Qingxuan and Shi Wudus relationship. It’s reiterated and reinforced multiple times; “The Shi brothers were very close and loved each other deeply.” True.. but not the whole picture.

You don’t act like a whipped dog on a short leash around someone who loves you unconditionally. You don’t try to snuff out the light in someone you love and respect.

It’s also Shi Wudus obsession with controlling Shi Qingxuan that makes me certain the blackwater arc is obfuscated. He always needs her to be dependent, to act normal, to stop being herself. Shi Qingxuan has a personality larger than life. Imagine how far she could fly if she wasn’t tethered!

I’d bet everything that Shi Qingxuan could have ascended naturally and that Shi Wudu wouldn’t have, and I bet that ate him up. Instead, he had Qingxuan walk through life with “You’re nothing without me.” “I made you.” “Everything you have, you owe to me.” “I do so much for you, and you can’t even obey a simple command.” “You need me.”

For Hua Cheng, he teaches us that one’s love for another should be about who that person is, not who they can be to you.

For Xie Lian, he teaches us that one should be kind for the sake of being kind.

Feng Xin and Mu Qing are fighting over who gets to kill monster of the week? Thats fine, as long as you kill it. Roll dice or smth idc just help the villagers.

You can have 34 girlfriends at the same time, I guess, Pei Ming, but make sure you deal with whatever has been causing unrest in your territory meanwhile.

Everyone leave Ling Wen alone. Just leave her be.

Rain Master is allowed to bring in her farm animals to the great hall if she wants to i guess

Yes you can play music in the heavens but keep it low during night time

self-indulgent “Things to never say to someone who just came out” TGCF edition, happy pride month!

and spoilers for plot of tgcf:

Pure Donghua Battle Beats «— YouTube link to Yiling Patriarch shredding it on the ghost flute. 15 mins of unadulterated spook that only gets more intense as it goes.

ALSO. I’d like to say I think it’s a crime that the donghua flutist didn’t get credit. I could not find any information about who the actual musician was. However Qiu Niu who did the audio drama flute sounds a lot like the donghua flute so imma just put that out there.

Please point me in the right direction to confirm this.

There are many clues that suggest this is year 1, such as his first wake up scene where he’s surprised he has the shackle, the fact that he’d only had one incident of forgetting to eat which suggests he’s still freshly mortal, the displaced citizens. Then the more telling events like it being the first Zhongyuan to pass Xie Lian without him noticing. (Maybe he’d just been doing good with eating for a couple years and suddenly slipped, maybe the nightmare was so disorienting he forgot he has a shackle, maybe nobody was celebrating Zhongyuan during the wars aftermath.)

Conversely, there are things like the day his parents die is the day Yong’an completes construction of their palace in Yong’an (did they start building before Xianle fell? Or are they construction wizards? Or was it just remodeling?) and the fact that Lang Ying has a seriously progressed case of Human Face Disease. (Although there might be a time skip between the palace being built and the Xie Lian attacking)

And the fact that it says “a few years ago when Xianle fell” during the interaction with white no-face on the mountain (but define “fall” was it when the gates were sieged, was it the pagoda, the disease, or when the last soldier died on the battlefield?”

All this to say. Fuck it, I don’t care anymore.

🤔

Does that technically make fallen gods ghosts? Since they’re supposed to be dead but their existence is dependent on attachment? Fascinating. And Hua Cheng.. a ghost turned god.. oop that’s a tailspin, I’ll stop.

He’s so good at artwork and drawing, but soooo bad at calligraphy and the only reasons I could come up with were:

1) Writing (unlike art) is uniform, cold, and performative. It lacks expression(or is supposed to) and Hua Cheng is expression. His handwriting isn’t bad because it lacks anything.. it just has too much. Too much feeling. Too much expression. Too much artistic flair. Too much Hua Cheng.

2) He just wants gege to teach him, and refuses to learn on purpose.

And he did the last one in his sleep and had the nerve to describe it as “having weird dreams.”

So banished from heaven ≠ banished to mortality, unless you’re shackled and cut off from your power. *Or you have 0 believers left

Xie Lian was an especially annoying splotch for Jun Wu because Hua Cheng was a Grand Believer, so Xie Lian was technically never not a god.

If you derive your immortality and power from believers and faith, then once that power is gone.. why would you still be a god?

There’s a part that talks about how gods fall naturally and I’ll have to try and find it sometime because it’s probably pretty telling for these specific answers we’re looking for.

Problem is, I have no freakin clue which book it’s in because so much info is given by way of passing commentary 😂

As always, if it’s tgcf I will veer so hard off topic we can’t tell where we started and still be ok with it lmaooo I get lost in questions like it’s a hobby.

Also, it's the act of ascending that removes someone from the cycle of reincarnation, so even if Shi Qingxuan did have his godhood stripped from him, it seems his soul can't just be shoved back into the cycle. And I think that's the only true difference between heavenly officials and mortals/ghosts. Beyond that, they're simply humans with a whole lotta power.

From my understanding, the word "ascend" is only used for the first heavenly tribulation. Ascend is step 1. After that you have your "2nd tribulation" or your "3rd" etc. So when they say "He ascended again?!" in reference to Xie Lian, they are not thinking "He's had a third tribulation?" because that means something else. The tribulations following ascension bring more power once passed. The ascension (basically) just opens the doors to heaven and welcomes you to a new power source.

And this is perf because we have the receipts now:

"For example, a heavenly official who managed horses was likely quite comfortable in their position. People always needed reliable transportation, and they couldn’t very well leave the condition of their horses and carriages to the whims of fate; who wouldn’t want their horses to be strong and healthy, and their travels safe? Thus, this sort of heavenly official would always see regular devotion. "However, what if one day mortals discovered something completely novel that ran faster than a horse? When this new invention inevitably overtook horses, worshippers of the heavenly official who presided over horses would decrease in turn. Heavenly officials such as these made up most of the heavens, blinking to life and flashing by like shooting stars. "This was the cruelest way gods declined because the process could not be reversed. A heavenly official in that situation was destined to watch their own decline until they disappeared entirely—unless they jumped down from the heavens, returned to being mortal, re-cultivated a new path, and then ascended once more as a brand-new god. Not everyone possessed the courage and fortune to do something like that."

Vol.5 Ch.79 7s

I really feel like this is pretty cut and dry in terms of explaining what happens to gods who have 0 believers left. They will die if they don't figure out a way to ascend again. And when they do, it will be their new first ascension.

What I love that you brought into the discussion is the reincarnation. That is a part of tgcf I hadn't paid much attention to and how it ties in. I'll be looking out for it

And he did the last one in his sleep and had the nerve to describe it as “having weird dreams.”

So banished from heaven ≠ banished to mortality, unless you’re shackled and cut off from your power. *Or you have 0 believers left

Xie Lian was an especially annoying splotch for Jun Wu because Hua Cheng was a Grand Believer, so Xie Lian was technically never not a god.

If you derive your immortality and power from believers and faith, then once that power is gone.. why would you still be a god?

There’s a part that talks about how gods fall naturally and I’ll have to try and find it sometime because it’s probably pretty telling for these specific answers we’re looking for.

Problem is, I have no freakin clue which book it’s in because so much info is given by way of passing commentary 😂

As always, if it’s tgcf I will veer so hard off topic we can’t tell where we started and still be ok with it lmaooo I get lost in questions like it’s a hobby.

I probably won’t be rereading for a while (I tried and mq/fx actually started actively pissing me off enough that I stopped 😂) plus jjwxc locked me out of my account after stealing my money.

Currently, Jun Wu was the ruler, and hundreds of heavenly officials formed the Upper Court, making the current dynasty, and the government before them belonged to a different dynasty. Just as how regimes change in the mortal realm, the heavenly realm would also go through dynasty changes. Although the time it’d take would be very, very long, but fundamentally they’re the same. New worshippers would replace the old, and new gods would replace the old ones. Sometimes, the decline of a god wasn’t caused by any mistakes he might’ve done and was banished as a result, but because another, more powerful god had appeared, for no other reason than because people’s lives and beliefs gradually changed and no longer needed him. For example, a heavenly official who controlled horses must dwell very well because people couldn’t leave their horses and carriages alone when they were in need of transportation. Who wouldn’t want their horses to be strong and healthy, their travels safe? Thus, his donations would never cease. However, if one day mortals discovered something completely new that ran faster than horses, then when this new invention overtook horses, worshippers of this heavenly official who controlled horses would inevitably decrease. Such heavenly officials who flash by like shooting stars make up the majority of the heavens. This way of decline was the cruelest, because the process could not be turned around. Unless that heavenly official jumped down from the heavens and return to being mortal to re-cultivate a new path, to become a brand new god and ascend, then he would be destined to watch his own decline until he disappeared. However, not everyone possessed the courage and fortune. The gods of the previous dynasty were said to have faded thus, and some also said it was because they caused a great calamity, fought a chaotic battle, which was why they all fell from grace at the same time. But, it couldn’t be proven, and it wasn’t important anymore.

—Chapt. 151: Panic Left and Right; East or West Undecided, fan translation (@illuminatedferret I was too lazy to go through the volumes, but this is the the kiln arc when they're finding the murals in the divine temples)

"This was the cruelest way gods declined because the process could not be reversed. A heavenly official in that situation was destined to watch their own decline until they disappeared entirely—unless they jumped down from the heavens, returned to being mortal, re-cultivated a new path, and then ascended once more as a brand-new god."

Vol. 5 Ch. 79 7s

This part in particular. "Could not be reversed," Returned to being mortal," and "Brand-new god." in particular.

This is not a supplementation, a continuation, or a top-up. It is starting fresh. from ground 0, with nothing. And if they don't, then they die.

So I'm gunna have to hard disagree with the idea that "gods are always gods" especially since that passage is pretty explicit with saying they are not gods anymore once they lose their followers.