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I think the thing that makes me extra insane is that Jon wrote this.
He said: this is my interpretation of the character. Let go of comic book canon. Frank is in love with Karen. She is at the heart of his reality. Put Karen in Maria’s clothing. She is always there for him. She’s always with him. He’s physically drawn to her. The idea of her is going to save him from himself. Frank is in love with Karen, it’s not platonic, it’s not siblings, truly let that idea go he nearly kissed the hallucination.
Kastle is so interesting because it feels like a writing formula that is very common, but for some combination of reasons this one just hits the mark. Like, it seems realistic to me that these are two people that care deeply for each other but can’t be together at the moment. Have you enjoyed or disliked other ships that are similar on paper to this one?
i think the unique aspect of kastle as a ship was that, while it evokes some common tropes, it was really just an accident born out of two actors having insane chemistry. like peak "ship that should not have happened but did," and that's what i think makes it a particularly alluring example of that gruff-guy-and-kind-hearted-woman, beauty and the beast eque story. on the sheer basis of actor chemistry and a compelling dynamic established in dd s2 (karen seeing her own gray morality in frank and being unwilling to judge him a monster because then she would have to think of herself as one too, a storytelling choice solely made possible by her s1 plot of killing wesley and the alterations made to her backstory for the show), we've somehow landed in a reality where a woman famous only for being matt murdock's fridged girlfriend is dancing around a love story with the punisher. i would perhaps argue that their reasons for not being together, while having sufficient watsonian reasoning, are more clearly defined by the doyalist perspective: giving the punisher a canon romantic arc would be alienating to the male audience, who are always the most important to court for a comic adaptation, and thus it's become this long, drawn-out bait, primarily prompted by the actors involved who enjoy the dynamic and want to play with it. there is tension between the watsonian reason for their separation--karen, though tempted by the darkness frank lives in, is not willing to follow him there--and the doyalist. this is, um, unique and i can't say that any other ships really come to mind that mimic this particular situation lol. and, honestly, other dynamics that read the same on paper, ones that tick off the same tropes, aren't going to hit the same way because so much of what makes these two so good is actor chemistry and their specific narrative parallels. you really just can't get this stuff anywhere else!
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OKAY I COMMENTED THIS ON SOMEONE ELSE'S POST BUT IT DESERVES IT'S OWN IMO.
The reason every female love interest fits so poorly with Matt (possibly excluding Elektra) is because the man refuses to look for anything but the good in the women he dates.
Telling Karen "This isn't who you are." when she expresses aggression and basically ignoring Heather while in his relationship with her- he sees her as an aquaintance would see her, and he prefers it that way. With no grey area on who she really is.
All they want is for Matt to see the bad in them and to love them anyway. (AKA WHAT FRANK DOES FOR KAREN AND BUCK DOES FOR HEATHER!!!!!) But he refuses to do it.
Cupid lifts his beloved Psyche in a tender embrace, his face close to hers. Psyche lets herself sink slowly backwards. Languorously, taking his lover’s head between his hands.
//
Psyche Revived by Cupid’s Kiss - ANTONIO CANOVA
Karen Page & Frank Castle - VIRTUE OF THE VICIOUS, THE PUNISHER
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im gonna say something, and it's gonna be unpopular, but here it goes.
A lot of people complain about lack of chemistry between matt x karen, or want Elektra back or want Karen with Frank.
but the reality is, as far as the show is concerned, the best friends to lovers storyline with Matt and Karen is the healthiest thing for both of those characters.
aside from the shared trauma, they have shared backgrounds. The belief in operating within the justice system has always been the grounding force for matt. Karen is his connection to life outside of the suit, a life he desperately needs to hold onto in order to be able to be daredevil without letting his emotions send him down a dark path. Matt serves a similar role to Karen in that they balance each other out. When one is low, the other carries them. That is absolutely not the dynamic with matt/Elektra or with kastle.
here are tough truths for some folks:
Frank doesn't want justice - he wants revenge. He's not a hero, he's a vigilante. karen ultimately seeks justice, even when she gets frustrated with the broken system. Frank would bring out the worst in her, not the best. And it's not her job to "fix" him. Yes, he's hot, he's a badass, we root for him, but he's a lone wolf.
Matt and Frank stand at opposite ends of a spectrum. Frank thinks he and Matt are the same, but they're not. For Karen to be in a relationship with Frank, it would leave Matt even more broken than he already is. He wouldn't be able to reconcile that, and he would lose Karen in addition to already losing Foggy. He would be truly alone. That's tragic af.
A love of spicy fanfic can cloud your judgement when it comes to what is actually best for a character. Toxicity may equate to some hot chemistry in the bedroom, but doesn't equate to a lasting, healthy relationship. There's no happily ever after for kastle. Only some passion followed by inevitable death and heartbreak. Why would you want that for a character you love and admire?
Finally, go back and watch Matt and Karen in the rain. Their kiss on the steps. Hell, their scenes together last season! If you think there's no chemistry there, you're more blind than Matt Murdock. Yes, 10 years later, it would look different -- chemistry/tension looks a lot more like stability and familiarity the longer you're with a person. That doesn't mean the love is less - it means it's deeper and more transformative than physical attraction only. As is the case with any long term ship.
The best thing Born Again can do is to show Matt and Karen successfully navigating their relationship in a healthy way, helping each other deal with their grief, and finally growing together and becoming more powerful as a duo than they ever were apart.
In fact, exactly the same "obstacles" for Kastle works for Karedevil.
Matt is a broken man himself and it's not Karen's job to fix him. He will never stop being Daredevil, he will never stop being vigilante. Matt, under the guise of wanting justice, has a God complex. Matt wants to feel needed, he wants to feel important, and he puts that desire above the people he cares about.
Frank does act like he wants to die at every possible opportunity, but let's not forget that Matt is not immortal either and has already died once, leaving Foggy and Karen heartbroken. This is what life vigilante looks like, you may not come back.
It's a bit of an exaggeration to say that Frank would get the worst out of Karen, since we didn't really have the opportunity to check in which direction their relationship would develop. Personally, I think it was Fisk, Wesley or Bullseye who got the worst out of her, making her one of the best and most interesting characters in the series.
As for Matt and Karen's relationship, I think they had chemistry in the original series, and their scenes from season 2 were adorable. It's just that Matt and Karen were infatuated (not in love) with versions of each other that had nothing to do with their real image. Matt saw Karen as a damsel in distress whom he would be able to save at every turn. Karen, on the other hand, saw an incomplete picture of Matt, only the version he wanted her to see (and he had no problem showing his true self to Claire or Elektra). For three seasons, they only had the opportunity to talk to each other honestly ONCE. These are not the foundations for building a lasting relationship. This relationship always had problems that they chose not to see. The new season presents exactly the same. We don't solve problems, we just pretend they don't exist. Therefore, the involvement of fans of the series in this relationship is almost zero.
I have been silent for a while now on tumblr, but i'm pretty active on twitter, because this is where the most of Kastlers happens, ngl.
That being said, i think twitter is also the worst place to speak about the fuck is hapenning in Daredevil Born Again right now and the state of the ships, because there is SO MUCH to say !
(Beware very long post ahead)
Kastlers have been in the dark for more than 6 months, the end of season 1 promised us a love triangle between Matt, Karen and Frank, but in the middle of the year, we learned in a shaddy way, that the Punisher wouldn't be in the season 2 at all, despite the fact that everyone was pretty sure he would be in it - So much that, each time a big media would talk about Born Again s2 they would include a picture of him.
Not a single journalist asked WHY Frank wasn't included in this damn season, when part of the story revolves around him and what he represents. The cops are litteraly wearing his logo ?
It really looked like, NO ONE was allowed to ask any question about it at all, which is super weird?
And when more people started to freak out about Punisher absence, Vincent D'onofrio (Fisk) stepped up to say something about Jon being busy filming Spiderman when they shot season 2 (Except Spiderman started filming months later, but ok.)
So basically, once the news and the trailer dropped, we knew Kastle was kinda doomed.
I had months to prepare mentally for that season 2, not only because of KD but also because of Frank's absence.
And now that the first episode is out, let me tell you that i am kinda happy Kastle lost, because i think KD lost even more.
Imagine waiting so many years for your ship to finally sail only to be robbed of its best part?
I mean, I suppose people are satisfied with that, but if that happened to Kastle i'd have been so mad.
All that build up for so many years, only for the climax to happen off screen? lol I'd have burned the studio.
TBH, It's not like Matt and Karen had any climax going on to begin with, but that's not an excuse to put them together out of nowhere, because they dont make sense at all?
Ok imagine, for a second, that you don't know shit about Daredevil and you discover it for the first time with the series:
Daredevil Season 1:
Karen and Matt meet for the first time, because Karen is being arrested for murder
Matt and Foggy save her, and Karen kinda start pinning for Matt
Matt doesn't really give a shit about her because he is busy kissing Claire Temple
Claire Temple breaks up with Matt
Daredevil Season 2:
Matt is aware of Karen presence and starts flirting back with her
They get their first date and their first kiss and that same night, Elektra is in town reaching for Matt
Matt keeps lying to Karen to be with Elektra
Karen meets Frank Castle, and they both start bonding
Karen and Matt get their first argument based on a fondamental view of the world, one think killing is bad, the other one think killing is the solution (sometimes), but Matt gets very upset and Karen tries to minimise her thoughts to please him
Karen discovers that Matt hang with Elektra (who is lying in his bed) and breaks up with him
We learn that Elektra is Matt's first passionate love
We witness plenty of flash back of Matt & Elektra together, kissing, dating, having sex
Matt says to Elektra that he doesn't regret being by her side instead of trying to fix his mistakes with Karen
Karen starts to help Frank a lot and takes his side a lot
Matt hears Karen heartbeats and realises something might have happened between Frank and her (even if they believe Frank is dead)
Karen wishes to carry Frank's memory and starts writting an article about him to show who he really is
Frank even if pretending to be dead, still keep an eye on Karen and ends up saving her
Matt, who tells since season 1 he cannot leave hells kitchen because he swore to protect it, starts to ask Elektra to leave with him somewhere else so they can be happy
Elektra is killed and Matt is devastated (Frank helps him fight the ninjas by killing them and Matt doesn't even try to stop him)
Matt decides to tell Karen the truth about his superhero identity (on Elektra advices), they stay friends.
The Defenders:
Elektra is back from the dead, and we see Matt comiting one of the greatest sin in christianity, which is suicide. (he decides to stay with Elektra and die with her)
Until now, Karen still hasn't shattered a single bit his beliefs, but Elektra did 3 times already.
Elektra dies again, but at this point we're all aware she'll be back someday
Punisher season 1 :
While everyone think Matt is dead, Frank in the middle of his mission to avenge his familly, stops everything to rescue Karen: blows up his cover, take a bullet in the arm, another one in the head, dislocate his arm by jumping in a stair case, protect her from a bomb explosion and stays with her until he is sure she is safe, he waits for her approval before going back to his mission
Frank also considers Karen like his familly, his wife (his words not mine) - Smiles and doesn't deny anything when Micro refers to Karen as Frank's girlfriend.
Daredevil Season 3 :
Matt is alive and hide from Karen, while she still pays his rent
Matt rescues Karen from Bullseye, but instead of asking her if she is ok, blames her because he could have arrested Fisk instead
They end up friends at the end of season 3
Punisher season 2 :
Karen helps Frank escape from the hospital and asks him to chose love (her) instead of another war, but Frank refuses, Karen leaves heartbroken (so is Frank)
She Hulk Attorney At Law :
Matt dates Jennifer Walters
Daredevil Born Again season 1 :
Matt and Karen appear to be good friends
Matt cuts Karen from his life, after Foggy's death, leading Karen to leave for San Francisco
Matt starts dating Heather for a whole year, without trying to reach out for Karen
Matt makes a lapsus and calls Heather, Karen, while being half drugged at the hospital
Karen comes back from SF when learning Fisk wants to kill Matt and she calls Frank for help, implying Karen and Frank have been in contact this whole time
Frank makes himself pretty for Karen (never be not funny lmao)
Matt hears Frank and Karen heartbeats, and confirms they are both in love
Karen refuses Frank's coffee meaning she's still mad at him for rejecting her (in Punisher s2)
Frank, despite refusing to join Matt's war, still goes against Fisk army when he hears on the radio that Karen is in danger. He gets arrested and put in a cage (where he manages to escape)
Karen joins Matt's army to defeat Fisk
Notice that in this whole list, only 2 sentences are about Matt and Karen as a couple, the rest is mainly about Matt and his girlfriendS or Karen and Frank.
Also Matt and Karen have been a couple for only 2 episodes out of 48 (from DD s1 to DDBA s1), meaning they spent most of the series being either friends, ignoring each other or playing dead.
So imagine the confusion of many when the first episode of BA season 2 starts with Karen and Matt being a couple, when nothing predisposed that situation? As if nothing ever happened between them, as if Matt wasn't aware of Karen being in love with Frank; as if Matt did properly broke up with Heather?
I knew they would be a couple, or close to be one during this season, but i expected to see this relationship being developed in front of my eyes - I expected them to have a proper conversation, to address all those elephants in the room (Between Elektra, Heather, Foggy, Frank, their view of the world, her killing someone etc), to have some tension, SOMETHING that could have partially convinced me that maybe they could work? (even if my eyes would have bled immensingly)
Instead the writters got the bright idea to do that off screen and shove their relation into our throat.
Why?
We have been warned by Charlie Cox tho, during one of his interviews, he said that Karen and Matt got closer during this times of war, since they spent their days hiding... and dear God he wasn't lying because IT SHOWS.
It really looks like they end up together because they don't have other choices around?
Their kiss scenes are so bland and they lack so much of chemistry, even the fog surrounding them is more consistent than what they are trying to serve us.
I also know Karen is going to confront Matt about Fisk's fate and that she is tired of letting him roam around free, despite the fact that Matt put him in jail, not once but twice already and that he wants to do it a third time LMAO
I'm also quite sure, considering the state of the writting that it won't be a deal breaker and that they'll make it magically work- Which is concerning really.
What is more concerning is Charlie Cox forcing way too much the idea of Karen being the love of Matt's life, and that Elektra is too crazy.
I'd have understand that statement if the series followed the comics perfectly, but THATS NOT THE CASE AT ALL ?
Karen hasn't the same weight in Matt's life, than she had in the comics.
Elektra took that place.
Matt could do ANYTHING for Elektra, when it's not the case at all for Karen.
Also, Comics Karen and MCU Karen are completely differents.
It's like saying a recipe is the best you ever ate because it's noted 5 stars on that cooking website, but in reality your plate is awful because half of your kitchen burned during the process.
Charlie can scream all he wants that Karen is the woman of Matt's life, it's impossible to believe it because it is not demonstrated at all in the show, and it's painful to witness.
IF i have to finish that post on a bright note, i'd say:
The advantages of seeing Matt and Karen in the middle of that "romantic" relationship, is that there is a great chance we will see its dawnfall (for good this time, please, for the love of Marvel!)
Why?
First:
If the writers are not shitty at some point they'll realise it doesn't work at all.
Second:
Matt is a fucking WHORE, in the comics but in the series as well: Claire, Karen, Elektra, Jennifer, Heather - And soon to be Kirsten and so much more
Even is Charlie Cox is trying to maintain that delulu about Karen, he's still talking about his character romancing other women:
He litteraly said that he wishes to romance Black Widow next, while season 2 wasn't even out yet.
Dude isn't even letting KD fans enjoy the ship, he is already yeeting Karen into oblivion.
I had my doubts last year, but it looks like Elektra is about to come back: either in Spider Man Brand New Day (we can see The Hand in the trailer) or in Daredevil Born Again season 3.
As for Kastle, we still have the special to hold on to:
Jon Bernthal told to a Kastlers to wait for it, while giggling like a fanboy!
His stuntman did a video on instagram praising Deborah Ann Woll but deleted half of it before publishing it, saying it was too spoilery.
We still see some comunity manager (Canada to be exact) talking about Frank and Karen (for engagements) meaning they are AWARE of Kastle popularity.
So much popular, i have never seen the Kastlers being that much active on twitter despite the absence of Frank.
People are really starting to get tired of Karen and Matt, and not only Kastlers but also those who love Elektra etc
I really hope that gaslight will come to an end very soon.
Let's wait that special before screaming.
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Since Born Again has decided to completely rip off Kastle fans, Auntie Dab has decided to take care of you. Every week I'll be publishing a new installment of our favorite heroine's adventures.
The entire work isn't divided into chapters, so I recommend reading it in the "Entire Work" format. Currently, I plan on 15 parts, but the FF isn't finished yet. I hope you enjoy reading.
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