Sweet On The Outside Bizarre On The Inside

Envy relies primarily on trickery and shapeshifting, but they're really outclassed by some of the better fighters (Lan Fan for instance) and also seems to underutilize the potential of shapeshifting? "Oh noes I'm losing better go leviathan mode" but like

morph a bear. lion. heck they've morphed a horse in the manga and I know that could do some serious damage by itself! And Envy's used shapeshifting in battle before - they turned their arm into a snake to choke Ling for instance.

Envy must be so used to people falling for their emotional or mental manipulation that they are not used to having to endure long combat. Envy not being a good fighter doesn’t fit right to me and I think you’ve explained why—you’re canonically correct, they’re bad at fighting. But their abilities should let them be far better!

Someone else mentioned elsewhere that it is a running problem in various stories that shapeshifting abilities are underused by writers, so I’m curious if this was a conscious or subconscious choice in the story. Does Envy rely too much on mind games? Were they used to Lust being the killer most times and not practiced doing it themself?

The best example for this is in the final fight with Roy Mustang. Envy had JUST consumed a bunch of mannequins and should thus have the power of several Philosopher’s Stones. How come they were so easily defeated then?

It does seem like part of it could be Envy’s frustration and anger making them arrogant and sloppy in their fighting again (we’ve seen it before), but after the first few flame attacks, wouldn’t they adjust? They barely shapeshifted during the fight.

Mustang’s flames would become a problem in close quarters since he himself isn’t fireproof (as far as I’m aware), and we’ve seen Envy transform their arm into a sword before. If they cut Mustang’s hand or elsewhere to distract him or even remove a glove, the fight could have been so different.

Even in the running away, Envy could have changed into a mouse to hide, a predator with fangs, or really any other animal to run away. They would have easily outpaced Mustang then and gotten away.

Was Envy really in such a space they wouldn’t think to transform into anything else? Even with fight or flight triggered, they’ve been around for over 200 years and shapeshift CONSTANTLY, how would they forget? They had the energy for at least one change (pretending to be Roy), so being tired doesn’t explain it.

struggle to catch their breath

grab onto whatever’s close enough to ground themselves in reality

become nauseous / vomit

shake uncontrollably

sweat buckets

get a headache

things people do to combat having nightmares if they occur commonly

sleep near other people so they can hear the idle sounds of them completing tasks

move to a different sleeping spot than where they had the nightmare

leave tvs / radios / phones on with noise

just not sleep (if you want to go the insomnia route)

sleep during the day in bright rooms

things people with insomnia do

first, obviously, their ability to remember things and their coordination will go out the window

its likely they’ll become irritable or overly emotional

their body will start to ache, shake, and weaken

hallucinate if it’s been long enough

it becomes incredibly easy for them to get sick (and they probably will)

stay completely still until "danger" has passed; i.e. anxiety lessens

listen for something to ground me; e.g. a pet snoring or childhood clock ticking

Crying because you’re exhausted but your mind won’t rest

Trying to force yourself to fall asleep and laying in bed awake for 2+ hours

And if you want to add a second person without insomnia,

I have never liked the Raven Queen. The Matron of Ravens. I wanted to so badly! Her aesthetic? Iconic. The way she OUSTED the previous god of death? KILLED him? As a mortal? And she ascended to godhood? A total flex. Like damn fr. BUT

I can’t get over what she did to Vax. If she just hadn’t taken advantage of him, I could love her so much. But I can’t. My disdain has also grown the further into Campaign 3 we get and the more I read.

Some Reasons!

1. She took advantage of Vax when he was in a weak spot. He was struggling, depressed, and desperate at the sudden loss of his sister. She used this to make a deal with him.

2. She took Vax immediately after they defeated Vecna. Why could he not live out his life as her champion? (I do know that because of the Disintegrate spell, there was no body to revive him so this would kind of “go against” her rules?)

3. Why make Vax her champion? He wasn’t willing. Yes, he offered himself, but that was more so coercion. Consent should be enthusiastic! Vax’ildan was desperate and afraid to lose the ones he loved, so he made deals with a god previously unknown to him. We’ve seen that the Matron has MANY followers in Campaign 3. There were so many she could have chosen to be her champion. Who would have WANTED to be her champion. Why Vax? Are we to truly believe that in all of Exandria, no other follower of the RQ was fate-touched? (If that was her reason)

4. She also made him her *eternal* champion. (This is part especially where I’d love to hear others’ thoughts). Vax does not get to die. Not like most people. He is now stuck in that same limbo as the Raven Queen. Yes, he gets to shepherd souls to The Other Side. Purvan did. But Purvan GOT TO REST. He served his time, and then got to pass on. As of right now, Vax will never know rest, and I hate that she stole it from him. If Vax has died-died, eventually he would be reunited with his loved ones in the afterlife. Now, when they die, they’ll see him, but only briefly as he must go back to his ETERNAL DUTY. May I remind you that he did not ask for that position?

Also, doesn’t that kind of contradict her whole “death is a part of life” thing, having an eternal champion? Yes, Vax is now a celestial and he did “die,” but he never passes on to the afterlife. Some blurry lines there.

5. The Matron has punished Vax for visiting/“interfering” with his loved ones. In latest 4-sided dive, Matt clarified that the first attack on Zephrah/Keyleth, Vax showed up and saved her (that’s how Otohan knew he would come again). Matt continued that his actions were technically against the RQ’s commands, and that she punished him for it (we don’t know how). Now, Vax’ildan is stuck in a painful orb as a lens, and she has done nothing to help.

So that’s all I have at the moment. What do y’all think? Please share your thoughts or tag me in stuff cuz I want to read more on it. It continually bugs me that the Matron was lonely in her task (fair) and that she may have not realized that before ascending, but that does not mean that she should force Vax to the same fate/keep him to herself.

This is a little more interesting. Vex died. More, he was disintegrated and there was no body left. This wasn't the first time he'd died, mind you... and the Raven Queen allowed him to come back each time despite the claim she had on his soul. But this time he had no body to come back to. So she created a body for him and had him come back as an Avatar of hers - essentially a revenant, unable to die, until his mission (stopping Vecna) was done.

Again. He offered his life in exchange for Vex's life. She could have struck him down, let his sister live, and just left. Instead, she accepted the bargain and didn't even force his hand for much of his remaining life. His sister was dead. More, his sister was dead because these "heroes" were looting the tomb of the Raven Queen's Champion. They were stealing a holy relic of hers. And she went and allowed Vex to be restored to life and chose Vex as the Champion to wear her armor. (More specifically, in the game, Vex was given the armor and she gave it back to Vax. And he later took a level of Paladin worshiping the Raven Queen.)

How long is eternity? Honestly, we don't know how long he will be the Champion - it's until the Raven Queen needs a different Champion. It may very well be that she's keeping him as the Champion for however long Keyleth has left to her life and then will let him go so the two pass on together. We have no clue. Only Matt truly knows the mind of the Raven Queen and he's not telling.

We have no idea as to the nature of the punishment. We know that he's punished... but hell, maybe the punishment is that he and the Raven Queen dress up nicely and he's forced to go to the Celestial Opera where he'll be bored stiff. Or maybe he's washing dishes for a bit. There are multiple forms of punishment, and not all are torture. People are hearing "he's punished" and seem to assume that he's being zapped or something... but I am more than willing to bet that Ludinus is inflicting far more harm to Vax than the Raven Queen ever did to him in punishing him for manifesting without permission.

Vax made an agreement with the Raven Queen. Events then conspired to that resulted in his permadeath... and she then offered him a deal to continue fighting in exchange for becoming an angel of sorts and essentially continue doing her bidding.

He could have said no. He could have gone off to rest. Liam had a backup character (essentially playing the character who would end up being Will's father) already in mind, one who was a widower and would try to help Keyleth with her grief over losing Vax. But Matt went and offered a chance for Liam to continue playing as Vax for the rest of the campaign, knowing once it's done? Vax is gone.

Liam agreed to it. The rest is history. And eventually we'll get to see how the story is rewritten in The Legend of Vox Machina to flow more effectively in a new format.

The more I thought about it the more I realized I was okay with Vax dying at the end. Would I have preferred him to live? Of course! But having at least one of VM pass established stakes and made it feel more real. It also has allowed the beautiful story to develop! Plus, each of the members have had deaths that were shortly resolved, so Vax genuinely being dead reasserted that possibility. The key part here though is in Exandria, we KNOW there is an afterlife. We know Vax got to see his mother again, etc., so eventually, he would get to see all of VM again. But as the Champion of Ravens, he has a duty first and is unable to.

The part that gets me is the “eternal champion” bit. I don’t think it would be fair or right for the RQ to keep Vax as her Champion forever. This would deny him his “eternal rest.” If he is always working for her, what time does he get to spend with his loved ones who have past?*** As of what the content shows now (unless there is something I’m missing), Vax does not have a contract end date, and I resent that. He deserves rest at some point.

I also realized that with the addition of The Legend of Vox Machina into canon, we’re able to see a non-improvised version of the story. Others have pointed out that they do show more aspects and actions of the Raven Queen there. It’s so interesting to see what they add in, and it does seem at times that she has more selfish intentions (she had been watching Vax for a while…) that we didn’t originally get in stream.

Her lawful neutral alignment is also wonderful because it is so infuriating! It’s perfect! Death isn’t on anyone’s side, it just is. *holds in a Hamilton reference* But, with the advancement of C3, we’ve also gotten to see more and more of the characteristics and flaws of the gods, and how they are imperfect. I do still think The RQ was selfish at times and took advantage of Vax, but other times, Vax actively leaned in, too.

I do also want to make note too that though I dislike the Raven Queen ~emotionally~ she is also an AMAZING character. So well-written, the execution of her lawful neutrality, her loneliness and opening up to Vax, her kindness and letting him be a revenant and say goodbye, her punishing Vax for saving Kiki? It’s all so layered and complex and I need to stop before I just go off on how wonderful storytellers the entire cast of CR is.

Thanks again to everyone for your thoughts and discussions I genuinely do appreciate it!

***bonus thought***

There is a big difference between certain events in Campaign 1 and TLOVM which I think translates to a common feeling of the Raven Queen forcing Vax’s hand.

In C1, Vax chooses to put on the armor. Someone even pointed out that it was first given to Vex, but she gave it to Vax (I wonder if this influenced him becoming Champion/other decisions? But that’s for another day).

In TLOVM, the armor shows up on Vax. After he makes the deal, it vanishes from Purvan’s body and appears on him. He then can’t take it off. That part completely removes Vax’s agency, and even though he is able to make choices, his hand is heavily guided by the Matron of Ravens. Vax’s willingness and offerings are what make his fate in the campaign more agreeable, because HE chose to do it. Not so much in TLOVM.

So it’ll be interesting to see how it plays out with the campaign canon, especially considering the CR cast not only has been playing and telling the story all these years, but that they ALSO wrote TLOVM. They made editing and writing decisions. And tbh I think that opens a whole other can of worms thinking about what that means.

The other thing I remembered is that the Raven Queen CUT THE TWINS’ FATE STRINGS. NO. (I do love the golden thread imagery through the show and there’s good stuff of it in fan art too AHH) DON’T CUT OFF MY TWINS LIKE THAT.

^^plz note that’s not me trying to open a debate on the strings of fate bit there. I know why she did it and that the twins have separate paths, but I feel like they would have separate ones anyway? I just hate that connection being severed, even though RQ could never truly severe Vex and Vax 💙🖤. Especially considering once it was cut, Vex “couldn’t feel” Vax anymore (evidence: Briarwood Chenga Window Jump, she sensed he was in danger. When he was in the mountain with Umbrasyl, she couldn’t tell if he was okay).

I have never liked the Raven Queen. The Matron of Ravens. I wanted to so badly! Her aesthetic? Iconic. The way she OUSTED the previous god of death? KILLED him? As a mortal? And she ascended to godhood? A total flex. Like damn fr. BUT

I can’t get over what she did to Vax. If she just hadn’t taken advantage of him, I could love her so much. But I can’t. My disdain has also grown the further into Campaign 3 we get and the more I read.

Some Reasons!

1. She took advantage of Vax when he was in a weak spot. He was struggling, depressed, and desperate at the sudden loss of his sister. She used this to make a deal with him.

2. She took Vax immediately after they defeated Vecna. Why could he not live out his life as her champion? (I do know that because of the Disintegrate spell, there was no body to revive him so this would kind of “go against” her rules?)

3. Why make Vax her champion? He wasn’t willing. Yes, he offered himself, but that was more so coercion. Consent should be enthusiastic! Vax’ildan was desperate and afraid to lose the ones he loved, so he made deals with a god previously unknown to him. We’ve seen that the Matron has MANY followers in Campaign 3. There were so many she could have chosen to be her champion. Who would have WANTED to be her champion. Why Vax? Are we to truly believe that in all of Exandria, no other follower of the RQ was fate-touched? (If that was her reason)

4. She also made him her *eternal* champion. (This is part especially where I’d love to hear others’ thoughts). Vax does not get to die. Not like most people. He is now stuck in that same limbo as the Raven Queen. Yes, he gets to shepherd souls to The Other Side. Purvan did. But Purvan GOT TO REST. He served his time, and then got to pass on. As of right now, Vax will never know rest, and I hate that she stole it from him. If Vax has died-died, eventually he would be reunited with his loved ones in the afterlife. Now, when they die, they’ll see him, but only briefly as he must go back to his ETERNAL DUTY. May I remind you that he did not ask for that position?

Also, doesn’t that kind of contradict her whole “death is a part of life” thing, having an eternal champion? Yes, Vax is now a celestial and he did “die,” but he never passes on to the afterlife. Some blurry lines there.

5. The Matron has punished Vax for visiting/“interfering” with his loved ones. In latest 4-sided dive, Matt clarified that the first attack on Zephrah/Keyleth, Vax showed up and saved her (that’s how Otohan knew he would come again). Matt continued that his actions were technically against the RQ’s commands, and that she punished him for it (we don’t know how). Now, Vax’ildan is stuck in a painful orb as a lens, and she has done nothing to help.

So that’s all I have at the moment. What do y’all think? Please share your thoughts or tag me in stuff cuz I want to read more on it. It continually bugs me that the Matron was lonely in her task (fair) and that she may have not realized that before ascending, but that does not mean that she should force Vax to the same fate/keep him to herself.

This is a little more interesting. Vex died. More, he was disintegrated and there was no body left. This wasn't the first time he'd died, mind you... and the Raven Queen allowed him to come back each time despite the claim she had on his soul. But this time he had no body to come back to. So she created a body for him and had him come back as an Avatar of hers - essentially a revenant, unable to die, until his mission (stopping Vecna) was done.

Again. He offered his life in exchange for Vex's life. She could have struck him down, let his sister live, and just left. Instead, she accepted the bargain and didn't even force his hand for much of his remaining life. His sister was dead. More, his sister was dead because these "heroes" were looting the tomb of the Raven Queen's Champion. They were stealing a holy relic of hers. And she went and allowed Vex to be restored to life and chose Vex as the Champion to wear her armor. (More specifically, in the game, Vex was given the armor and she gave it back to Vax. And he later took a level of Paladin worshiping the Raven Queen.)

How long is eternity? Honestly, we don't know how long he will be the Champion - it's until the Raven Queen needs a different Champion. It may very well be that she's keeping him as the Champion for however long Keyleth has left to her life and then will let him go so the two pass on together. We have no clue. Only Matt truly knows the mind of the Raven Queen and he's not telling.

We have no idea as to the nature of the punishment. We know that he's punished... but hell, maybe the punishment is that he and the Raven Queen dress up nicely and he's forced to go to the Celestial Opera where he'll be bored stiff. Or maybe he's washing dishes for a bit. There are multiple forms of punishment, and not all are torture. People are hearing "he's punished" and seem to assume that he's being zapped or something... but I am more than willing to bet that Ludinus is inflicting far more harm to Vax than the Raven Queen ever did to him in punishing him for manifesting without permission.

Vax made an agreement with the Raven Queen. Events then conspired to that resulted in his permadeath... and she then offered him a deal to continue fighting in exchange for becoming an angel of sorts and essentially continue doing her bidding.

He could have said no. He could have gone off to rest. Liam had a backup character (essentially playing the character who would end up being Will's father) already in mind, one who was a widower and would try to help Keyleth with her grief over losing Vax. But Matt went and offered a chance for Liam to continue playing as Vax for the rest of the campaign, knowing once it's done? Vax is gone.

Liam agreed to it. The rest is history. And eventually we'll get to see how the story is rewritten in The Legend of Vox Machina to flow more effectively in a new format.

The more I thought about it the more I realized I was okay with Vax dying at the end. Would I have preferred him to live? Of course! But having at least one of VM pass established stakes and made it feel more real. It also has allowed the beautiful story to develop! Plus, each of the members have had deaths that were shortly resolved, so Vax genuinely being dead reasserted that possibility. The key part here though is in Exandria, we KNOW there is an afterlife. We know Vax got to see his mother again, etc., so eventually, he would get to see all of VM again. But as the Champion of Ravens, he has a duty first and is unable to.

The part that gets me is the “eternal champion” bit. I don’t think it would be fair or right for the RQ to keep Vax as her Champion forever. This would deny him his “eternal rest.” If he is always working for her, what time does he get to spend with his loved ones who have past?*** As of what the content shows now (unless there is something I’m missing), Vax does not have a contract end date, and I resent that. He deserves rest at some point.

I also realized that with the addition of The Legend of Vox Machina into canon, we’re able to see a non-improvised version of the story. Others have pointed out that they do show more aspects and actions of the Raven Queen there. It’s so interesting to see what they add in, and it does seem at times that she has more selfish intentions (she had been watching Vax for a while…) that we didn’t originally get in stream.

Her lawful neutral alignment is also wonderful because it is so infuriating! It’s perfect! Death isn’t on anyone’s side, it just is. *holds in a Hamilton reference* But, with the advancement of C3, we’ve also gotten to see more and more of the characteristics and flaws of the gods, and how they are imperfect. I do still think The RQ was selfish at times and took advantage of Vax, but other times, Vax actively leaned in, too.

I do also want to make note too that though I dislike the Raven Queen ~emotionally~ she is also an AMAZING character. So well-written, the execution of her lawful neutrality, her loneliness and opening up to Vax, her kindness and letting him be a revenant and say goodbye, her punishing Vax for saving Kiki? It’s all so layered and complex and I need to stop before I just go off on how wonderful storytellers the entire cast of CR is.

Thanks again to everyone for your thoughts and discussions I genuinely do appreciate it!

***bonus thought***

I have never liked the Raven Queen. The Matron of Ravens. I wanted to so badly! Her aesthetic? Iconic. The way she OUSTED the previous god of death? KILLED him? As a mortal? And she ascended to godhood? A total flex. Like damn fr. BUT

I can’t get over what she did to Vax. If she just hadn’t taken advantage of him, I could love her so much. But I can’t. My disdain has also grown the further into Campaign 3 we get and the more I read.

Some Reasons!

1. She took advantage of Vax when he was in a weak spot. He was struggling, depressed, and desperate at the sudden loss of his sister. She used this to make a deal with him.

2. She took Vax immediately after they defeated Vecna. Why could he not live out his life as her champion? (I do know that because of the Disintegrate spell, there was no body to revive him so this would kind of “go against” her rules?)

3. Why make Vax her champion? He wasn’t willing. Yes, he offered himself, but that was more so coercion. Consent should be enthusiastic! Vax’ildan was desperate and afraid to lose the ones he loved, so he made deals with a god previously unknown to him. We’ve seen that the Matron has MANY followers in Campaign 3. There were so many she could have chosen to be her champion. Who would have WANTED to be her champion. Why Vax? Are we to truly believe that in all of Exandria, no other follower of the RQ was fate-touched? (If that was her reason)

4. She also made him her *eternal* champion. (This is part especially where I’d love to hear others’ thoughts). Vax does not get to die. Not like most people. He is now stuck in that same limbo as the Raven Queen. Yes, he gets to shepherd souls to The Other Side. Purvan did. But Purvan GOT TO REST. He served his time, and then got to pass on. As of right now, Vax will never know rest, and I hate that she stole it from him. If Vax has died-died, eventually he would be reunited with his loved ones in the afterlife. Now, when they die, they’ll see him, but only briefly as he must go back to his ETERNAL DUTY. May I remind you that he did not ask for that position?

Also, doesn’t that kind of contradict her whole “death is a part of life” thing, having an eternal champion? Yes, Vax is now a celestial and he did “die,” but he never passes on to the afterlife. Some blurry lines there.

5. The Matron has punished Vax for visiting/“interfering” with his loved ones. In latest 4-sided dive, Matt clarified that the first attack on Zephrah/Keyleth, Vax showed up and saved her (that’s how Otohan knew he would come again). Matt continued that his actions were technically against the RQ’s commands, and that she punished him for it (we don’t know how). Now, Vax’ildan is stuck in a painful orb as a lens, and she has done nothing to help.

So that’s all I have at the moment. What do y’all think? Please share your thoughts or tag me in stuff cuz I want to read more on it. It continually bugs me that the Matron was lonely in her task (fair) and that she may have not realized that before ascending, but that does not mean that she should force Vax to the same fate/keep him to herself.

Kashaw brought vex back. They saw the matron who might have interceded. But there is really no proof vex would have not come back. Even if she directly intervened there is no reason to think she made an exception

Vax assumed it would be ok to not work for her but didnt want to take the chance since if he WAS wrong it MIGHT mean her life. He was already looking for a greater purpose and wanting to become a cleric, as we saw before the chroma conclave. So as he said it was a different path than he anticipated but it was important

And it would have been fine. But he died permanently. Mortal magic is incapable of bringing him back. For reference even allura who is one of the greatest mages in the world could only cast ..7th level spells? 9th level true resurrection is in thr level of superceding the gods and liam said he would not have accepted again cus of thr chance it might piss her off. Essentially the situation was caused by vax wanting a purpose and acting as if all his assumptions were true cus hes a dramatic motherfucker who doesnt talk about what really matters.

Unless I’m mistaken, Purvan Suul’s service as champion ended once he died. He was promised to the Raven Queen, served, then got to experience “eternal rest.” Making Vax into a celestial and thus her eternal champion removes that possibility from him.