so this popped up in my feed recently, and I admit, after looking at the video and at the study, I'm a bit shook. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3FCQJDTLISY
https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1177/08862605261432630
I'm not sure if you would have any insight about this or not, I'm just trying to get a perspective on this from someone who doesn't use the word "patriarchy" every 10 minutes, you know? I know that studies can be skewed or manipulated, it's all about how you interpret the data. So how would you interpret this data? š¤
(someone in the comments of the video mentioned a study 40 years ago where 75% of men said that they would rape a woman if there were no consequences. These people are trying to blackpill me about 1/2 of the human race, I swear)
Anyway, feel free to ignore this if you want. Hope you have a good day.
Thanks for the ask! Iām not sure Iāve ever had something this in depth before. You may live to regret it, I haven't written an analysis this in depth since college.
I will admit, I did not watch the entire video, I just read the transcript. I did read the paper though, which was indeed disturbing. I will also note, as background for my perspective, that I am an immensely literal person who occasionally struggles with the nuances of broad questions and that I tend to find it easier to understand men than women, even though I am a cis woman.
Here is a chart obtained from the study, with some columns deleted (percentage of men who do not use the strategy, percentage of times the strategy was ineffective) and one column added (Percentage of all men who have used strategy at least once, in yellow). I also sorted the chart by the amount of men who have used the strategy at least once, in descending order.
The authors repeatedly stress in the introduction to the paper that anonymity is the only reason they received these responses, going to far to say that even in all male groups up to 40% of āsensitive behaviorsā remain undisclosed. This tells me that even in an environment where these men shouldnāt (according to patriarchy theory) feel judgement from the target of their actions, they do feel either shame about them or fear of judgement or even legal consequences from other men. There is some self policing here, itās just not effective.
The wording of the queries is careful to be broad- it covers both straight up non-consenting women, but also unwilling women. With the commodification of sex in the wider world today, many men (and some women) donāt see anything wrong with turning an initial reluctance into a negotiation. This, among many other reasons, is why commodification of sex is a bad thing. āPlaying hard to getā is also practiced by immature or selfish women, and some of this paper might apply to encounters with women āplayingā reluctant.
The top four ātricksā on their list are what I would call fairly standard skeevy social practices. The most widely used is simply ātelling her what she wanted to hearā. Unfortunately, this is also a pretty broad response and could cover anything from reframing a request for sex more endearingly, to tabling the request for sex until after a conversation, to outright lying. Even if outright lying is the majority of responses, it is still a nonviolent method- it just shows that these men donāt think of a no as a no, but as a start to a negotiation which they may or may not act in good faith for.
Thereās also an outlier- ākeep touching and kissing herā. This is arranged farther down their list, and Iām not sure why, because it's at 58% of overall use and over 75% success or partial success rate. This tells me that either there's an epidemic of under-reported physical assault, that many of these women were not as reluctant as they portrayed themselves to be, or both. I do have a hard time understanding how a truly unwilling woman would agree to sex after being touched against her will, especially if not combined by more forcible persuasion.
The next three ātricksā are to either wear a woman down with annoyance (ask her repeatedly) or to manipulate them socially (āuse of wingmen/women/groupā or āhave a female friend around to make them feel safeā). These are both pretty common social tricks in all situations when one party wants something, especially ones where persuasion is necessary. The social manipulation ones arenāt even inherently skeevy- they could be as simple as trying to make a woman you donāt know more comfortable with you, or as dangerous as having a female accomplice. 45 to 75 percent of respondents admitted to using these, and they count as part of the 95% of respondents using sexual coercion. Again, these are borderline dubious tricks, but not necessarily dangerous (and not necessarily more than you face in other social situations).
The next 30 to 45 percent of respondents admitted to using more direct manipulation and more controlling methods. These range from the comparatively innocuous ones like ātargeting strangersā and āhaving a female friend bring her overā, to concerning ones like āget her to a private place you controlā. This category also includes ātelling her you knew she wanted itā, āusing money/age/status to convince herā, and āgradually pushing until you got what you wantedā. This is, in my opinion, where it starts to straddle the line between pickup artist and truly concerning, but a lot of these responses can again be as innocuous as flirty talk or as sinister as forcible relocation. However, only about a third or less of respondents record using these more than a couple times. I think we're starting to winnow it down to the die-hard scumbags here, rather than the garden variety pushy jerk.
The last 30% or so is where the outright predatory behavior begins, starting at 'keeping her friends from interfering' at 30.5%. 30% to 15% is where I start the 'date rape' category, with not violent but extremely coercive and illegal methods like 'getting her inebriated' mixed with garden variety pressure like 'calling her frigid'. At the 15% category is where we start to see force, violence, and implicit or explicit threats applied. Believe it or not, I am not too surprised at this part of the breakdown.
Some men are terrible people, but we already knew this. A surprising amount of women are apparently willing to be party to their male friends taking advantage of women, which is new (see rows 6, 9, and possibly 5 on the attached chart). Most of the manipulation we see in this graph is the kind that is socially acceptable or negligible in other situations, which tells me that many men see this as just another I-want-what-you-have situation. Around 10% of the population outright rape people habitually, which is higher than I expected, honestly. However, I'm not too surprised on reflection.
The survey did note that they gave a follow up questionnaire about, among other things, if a woman was sincerely disinterested or 'faking it'. I can't find an aggregation of that result in the questionnaire- it would be fascinating in a kind of terrible way.
I would love to know more about how many of the men perceive the initial rejection of the women they're targeting. While coercing someone into sex is obviously a terrible thing to do, most people don't like to think of themselves as terrible people and justify what they do to themselves. Do these men think the women are just 'playing hard to get'? Shallow women posting on the internet have really inserted that idea into the public consciousness, and now many men aren't sure when no means no. Do they think that they know better than the women, that they just need to loosen up and have fun? Are they outright misogynists who don't consider women as people? All of these are important questions.
I also would like to point to our culture's minimization of the differences between male and female sexuality. This is purely from my own personal observations, and I know that there are many exceptions and people who don't fit this broad generalization, but most of the women I know are very choosy about sexual partners. Men tend to be less picky; I've had guys tell me they could consider having sex with any women in the room, while women would only consider a portion of the men. However, culture tells men that women want sex just as much as they do, and in a lot of the same ways. Culture also tells women they should want sex like men, in the guise of a lot of things like female empowerment and taking back their body from the strict outlines of traditional morality. I could see a scenario where a less picky guy, who has a much lower standard for sexual partner and has been told that women are the same way, meet a woman with a higher standard and thinking she's just making excuses.
Finally, indirect communication. While many of these women undoubtedly told their attacker no, and should have had their refusal respected, many other women I know are reluctant to make unambiguous statements in the face of male attention. It's part politeness and part really terrible survival mechanism left over from when men had absolute power over women, but what it means is that many women make a statement that they believe communicates their unwillingness to have sex but their partner believes they just need to be convinced. Also, again, playing hard to get is something that some women do that many men might be convinced is happening to them. I know I'm harping on it, but it really truly irritates me that it's so prevalent in our culture.
My personal opinion is that we should push back against the casual sex culture that's becoming prevalent. I believe that extramarital sex is immoral anyway, but men believing they have access to sex on demand causes a great deal of societal problems. Women having access to sex on demand also causes a different set of problems. I'm not sure the fleeting pleasure that a one night stand provides people is worth it in the long run; we should start making sex with strangers shocking and uncool again. Want an orgasm that badly? Get a toy.
Another personal opinion is that we should take a very hard look at party/club culture (over half the men in the survey said they met women at 'large social gatherings'). Parties and clubs seem to be more or less designed to generate bad decisions and allow for predatory behavior; why is so much of modern socialization among young people tied to a place where it's so difficult so socialize? Parties tend to be fixated on intoxication and clubs on seeing, being seen, and dancing- neither of which are great places to speak with others and create interpersonal connections. While intoxication and showing off are great fun for a short time, I would say it's more important to build strong friendships at places you can actually hear each other talk and remember it the next morning.
I don't think that most of this behavior is indicative of sexism; I think it's selfishness. If men could 'scratch the itch', so to speak, I think these men would target men too. We live in a culture of 'fun on demand', short term pleasure, and pleasure as the highest goal in itself. I see no surprise that men decide that that pleasure includes sex, no matter if the woman wants it too.
Few surveys are truly random. Where did Qualitrix find these men to fill out this survey? How did they confirm their age? How do we know they're not messing with the survey for shock value? While I have no reason to doubt this finding, these questions are always good to ask when looking at stats.
How many of these men thought their targets were playing hard to get/being a flirt/were reluctant but could be talked around? Again, men tend to think of sex as much less of a big thing than women. Coupled with the fact that most people really don't like to think of themselves as bad people, I'd be interested in the justifications these men have for their actions.
654 men reported positive outcomes to their actions- even in the long term, such as friendship, friends with benefits, or ongoing romantic or sexual relationships. What am I missing here? Are there so many women in relationships that started through coercion (almost a quarter of the representative sample)?
Just .1% of men reported rape or rape accusations. Why was this so low of a percentage (remember, 10% of men reported physically overpowering women for sex). How do we give women courage to come forward when this happens? How do we catch the apparently 6% of violent rapists, let alone the other self reported criminals?
What social groups are these men moving in? Getting sex no matter what can increase a man's standing in some groups. How do we give more oversight to groups of young men and prevent this from being a status booster? Men already have enough drive to have sex without social implications.
What kind of role models do these guys have? Do their role models partake of this behavior, or ignore it, or abhor it? Do they come from single parent homes, unmarried parent homes, divorced parent homes, or married parent homes? How involved are their role models in their lives?
Finally, how broad are these findings? Are they a picture of America and Canada, or the entire English Speaking world? Are they a snapshot of now, or are they representative of our decade or century, or are they a truism throughout time that is only now able to be explored? Obviously this one is unanswerable, it's just interesting to think about.
Thanks for the cool ask! If you got this far, kudos. Would be interested to hear your thoughts too, if you're up for it.