Unbetitelt

unfortunately, yes. first of all, lizzy’s shift to r!ciel’s side isn’t driven by a desire for revenge against ciel. around two months passed between her first appearance at the music hall and her publicly standing by ciel’s side, and likely even less time since she learned that r!ciel was actually alive. a few words and a single meeting were enough to shake everything she had believed in for the past three years.

she is deeply conflicted internally—on one hand, she feels hurt, but a much stronger force behind her actions is guilt and resentment toward herself. even though she saw the signs, she deliberately ignored them to avoid leaving her comfort zone and being forced to confront an inconvenient truth. her anger toward ciel is momentary—“you must have been laughing at me in your head while i ran around you like an idiot”—because, in a way, she is able to understand his decision—“would i have been just as happy if you had come back as yourself, and not as your brother?”

ultimately, the person she (wrongly) blames the most is herself. despite still being a child, she feels as though part of the responsibility for ciel’s deception lies with those around him—including her. to her, ciel had always come second to his brother (ciel sees himself as the spare, and while the story frames this more as his own perspective, lizzy realizes that she did treat him that way. it wasn’t “you’re both my cousins and i wouldn’t mind either of you becoming my fiancé”—for her, it was “that’s my fiancé, r!ciel, and his brother”). i wouldn’t be surprised if, without fully understanding ciel’s motivations, she attributes part of the blame to the attention that was always directed at his brother, leaving him in the shadows.

those three years she experienced feel like a betrayal toward both of her cousins. on one hand, she betrayed her real fiancé by pretending not to see the cracks in ciel’s mask; on the other, she betrayed ciel by—consciously or not—choosing not to question his inconsistencies, so she wouldn’t have to confront whether he was truly the brother she wanted. they were all supposed to be family, yet she deceived both herself and him to preserve the image she had built in her head.

at the same time, this “betrayal” works in the opposite direction as well. i believe lizzy loves ciel—not the person he pretended to be. he didn’t smile when she decorated an egg for him, but unlike his brother, he didn’t reject her when she proved to be strong and capable. he didn’t thank her when she tried to bring him cake, but he raised his voice out of concern when their lives were at risk on the ship. he didn’t respond to her affection in the way she expected, but he still showed that he cared—just differently. for him, her safety mattered more than any material gesture.

that guilt is the main reason she stands beside r!ciel. his presence shattered the carefully assembled puzzle she had been holding onto, even with pieces missing. she fled to him not because she wanted to, but because, from her perspective, she no longer has the right to stand where she once did. “i don’t know what to do.” “i can’t go back there.” even though her real fiancé turned out to be alive (and we don’t know if she understands the full nature of that), lizzy is never shown to be happy about it. we see her numb, crying—but never grateful that, despite the deception, the one she “truly loved” returned for her.

at one point she says, “i knew [r!]ciel and undertaker were up to no good, but if [r!]ciel were to die again…”—and i don’t think that means she wouldn’t be able to cope with his death. it means she would have nowhere left to return to. she knows perfectly well she stands on the losing side. “i’m sorry, [r!]ciel. i can’t help you.” despite being torn apart by contradictions and feeling unworthy of standing beside ciel, she still remains on his side—but i think that may be her downfall. it feels like we’re watching both ciel and lizzy trapped in a well, and while she won’t take sebastian’s outstretched hand, she will help ciel climb out, lifting him higher.

However, I'm not sure the narrative frames Lizzie's path as involving a return to Ciel in that way. I agree she'll likely have a role in hauling him up; another parallel to Sebastian, and how they've come to possibly represent his old life - institutional arrangements, real Ciel etc, v an ability to make a future for himself (and the odd unfairness of either), and that parallel placing them at odds does imply one or the other having some sort of dark fate whilst the other continues at Ciel's side, but I think that having Lizzie sacrifice herself for Ciel in some way would feel so anticlimactic, and a squandering of the character. I believe she's beginning to consciously recognise the immense constraint of the role she has been born into, and reckon with how impossible it is to escape given how ingrained it is into her psyche and her social situation. Nonetheless, I think her interacting with it on her own account rather than entwining her narrative further with Ciel and being sublimated into his character arc. That outcome would seem to me to defeat her recent development and be almost cruel - the story does regularly deal in cruelty and brutality, even with it's chief characters, and that's part of what gives it such a relentlessly authentic grim atmosphere, but because that brutality has deliberate weight.

But I suppose I just really don't want Lizzie to die.

I agree that so much of her current/recent action is driven by the revelations you have outlined, and I would like to see those further explored and reckoned with, beyond how they sit in her worldview - despite the shame she feels for not noticing, and loving an ideal, and realising how much of her identity is predicated on that, realising that Ciel's deception itself isn't her fault, and reckoning with the sheer violation of it. I certainly wouldn't like for her death to be framed as a sort of atonement.

@postpastiche (whom I'm tagging so obnoxiously since they've made some interesting posts about Lizzie recently, and I'd be fascinated to see what they have to think about this, sorry) described Kuro situating childhood as a being constantly eaten, and having to survive that - I think the story is setting Lizzie up to have to live and reckon with how her world has shaped her, how imperfectly she exists, and have to commit to the daunting task of existing for herself rather than within another (you are so right when you point out how what she's doing now is finding someone to stand behind, searching for sublimation rather than her own self.)

but like themetically yeah i think it would be a waste of lizzie's character for her to die (even if yana is setting her up with death flags -- again i'm bad at picking up on that stuff). i'm a firm believer that our ciel does love lizzie in a way that's actually really earnest and, aside from sebastian, that might be one of his most earnest relationships in the entire series. i think op's headcanons about the cielizzie marriage hit on a probable truth that lizzie and sebastian occupy these totally different spheres of ciel's affection. and it's sort of crucially different from sebastian and r!ciel because sebastian and r!ciel are diametrically opposed. their existences represent a definite break in the two chapter's of our ciel's life, and for 90% of the story there's an implicit belief that those two chapters can never ever overlap (until blue cult wrecks that belief). r!ciel is openly antagonistic towards sebastian, sebastian is visibly perturbed by his presence, all of that creates this tone that these two characters shouldn't exist together and they can only ever be in conflict.

with lizzie it's completely different ofc. she's the only person who is deeply involved in both the before and after chapters of ciel's life (besides tanaka, but i don't think he counts for reasons i dont feel like getting into rn). i think ciel loves her in the way that he loves the gilded memory of his childhood (and he gets frustated with her in the same ways he gets frustrated by the memories of his childhood and who he used to be). there's a reason why every time ciel has a flashback to when his parents and brother were still alive, lizzie is also there.

by contrast, i think ciel feels like he likes sebastian against his better judgement. there's a post i reblogged like a while ago and i'm too lazy to link but basically it was a quote from yana (?) about how sebastian sees himself as very dapper and polite and he finds enjoyment in being dapper and polite, but ciel sees that as him just holding his beastly desires back for the sake of the contract. i definitely think ciel feels a ton of affection for sebastian, but i think he regards that as like. something of a lapse (and to be honest, anybody would regard it as a lapse to feel affection for the thing that, by its own admission, is going to eat you one day). sebastian understands him and has shaped him in a way that lizzie can't and never could, but because of that, ciel's affections for her are just less fraught. i think he feels compelled to do good by her, and i think he genuinely wants to be... worthy (?) of the love she claims to feel for him. this ties into the whole thing where it's like -- ciel lies about his identity but he's not trying to be his brother. he's not acting as the sociable, courageous, strong twin. he's exactly who he is, and blue revenge is about how he is fit to be earl phantomhive. he also wants to be fit to be loved by lizzie as himself

I genuinely think that Lizzy definitely needs to have a future, a future she chooses for herself. In my reading of the story, it is fairly obvious that o!Ciel genuinely is in love with Lizzy in a romantic sense (which is what Sebastian is having that laughing fit in BoA about, that is the moment Sebastian realizes the f*ed up emotional situation his young master finds himself in, and to him, that is hilarious.

I also really, really wanna see Frances more involved (and believe that her being deeply involved in the murder of the Phantomhives would be "best" in the sense that it has the most options for tragic parallels (Lizzy/Sieglinde and being used by their mothers; Ciel and Frances as younger siblings; Frances and Madam Red...), and also because it being her and her having a *good reason* would make Ciel's revenge much more difficult. My personal preference is for him to choose to forgive when it comes to it, and for that the responsible party needs a good motive...

The pile of corpses is interesting imagery, because it is a sort of lie Sebastian tells Ciel - he repeatedly gives Ciel the feeling that the boy has "sacrificed" his brother (when Ciel did no such thing, certainly not deliberately - he just felt a certain way and yelled things in an incredibly traumatic situation, but he never wanted to trade his brother's soul and did not even know about it being a possible consequence). The same then applies to Madam Red - her story is almost exclusively the result of her own actions; she (an adult) chose to become a serial killer, to work together with a grim reaper. She did not stop her murders when her little nephew started to investigate. Ciel did not kill her, in fact he ordered Sebastian not to kill her. Grell killed her. And still Sebastian encourages Ciel to take the blame upon himself.

Agni's death, likewise, is not really Ciel's fault. He was killed by Polaris, on orders of Undertaker and r!Ciel, and o!Ciel even made it clear that he is not forcing them to stay in his house; and both Agni and Soma must have understood the general danger they are in by association with the "Queen's Watchdog".

But I think Ciel means it when he says he will protect Lizzy, "at least". In BoA, when he and Sebastian stay behind, for example, Ciel has no idea if his fragile body can withstand the cold for hours on an open boat (even if he trusts Sebastian's powers to hold off the dolls), but he does it anyway, for "Lizzy (and the others)".

Someone said something along the lines of: At this point in the story, Sebastian has ceased to seem like so much of a separate entity, as a kind of amoral conscience or ego for Ciel.

And I thought that was so interesting, because it's so similar to how I view that dynamic, whilst almost being it's exact opposite.

This was my response, which I think states pretty much everything I can coherently say in response thus far:

I find that so interesting, because it's somewhat different from my personal read of Sebastian. I do think that Ciel relates to him as a sort of other self/twisted conscience, but from Sebastian's perspective as the reader inhabits it, that seems to be an idea of him that sort of draws back and leaves something singular in the centre - I admittedly take him and his explanations of himself at face value, but I do see him as an entity that seeks to get closer to Ciel - to align him towards a conscience that will be enlightening for them both - and his held off by Ciel's superstitions towards him: those rCiel survivor's guilt related, and those illuminated here - his death drive, his darkest impulses and his excusing himself for them on the basis that he will die. Sebastian says the only thing he has to worry about is Ciel's selfishness - he's very far from caring about what he's lost, and death/destruction as a reminder of relevance and existence serves as a vicious cycle of his need for it. It isn't until real Ciel - literally what he's lost, and the paradigm shift that affects - that his world and comfort with it is blown open, and he strives again, with Sebastian manifesting himself as a helpmeet for perspicacious identity and survival.

Put like that, it actually rather does pose Sebastian as the shadow self to that projected, narratively literal degree - though I still think there's a space between how Sebastian acts towards Ciel and how both Ciel himself acts and how he relates to Sebastian, that would situate him as an almost idealising, attentive other self/conscience. (Again, I tend to take him at his word, which might be a problem, lol.) It's odd that for me, his separation/singularity as a being is revealed by how Ciel engages with him as an exonerating (not quite what I mean. More contextualising his culpability) circumstance because of how he poses him as destruction/punishment for existence, whilst also interacting with him as a companion complicit in that, and in the life lived upon that. But I suppose that could also be an irreconcilable consciousness.

This is such an interesting lens of addressing the story; from it's point of view, we have Sebastian the narrator as the projection/manifestation of conscience for all the layers of Ciel who we see acting in response. Or rather he is the response, and evinces an odd duty of care, or some equilibrium of honesty that comes off as something similar in it's affect, if twistedly.

Sebastian feels like an immensely separate character to me, more so than at earlier points in the story, though I can definitely see how he serves as Ciel's conscience/ego, in how he stands regarding him as illuminated by that separation, and within Ciel's perspective. I tend to view them as two poles in orbit around one another, entangling the other in their perceptions of them (and thus of themselves), there's a huge presence of the shadow self but to me, it's always felt dependent on that separation. What do people think?

Sebastian potentially acts as Ciel's shadow in a visual and symbolic sense, because Sebastian walks behind him and is tall, dark, and scary. But the qualities Sebastian embodies - absolute competence, ruthlessness, elegance, egoism, aloofness, and complete self-assurance - those are characteristics Ciel very much tries to incorporate into his own persona. In conversation with Sebastian, Ciel justifies his every move as calculated and entirely self-serving. Where others justify their sins to their god, Ciel justifies his kindnesses to the devil and insists he has no conscience and does not truly care for anyone but himself.

Sebastian, of course, sees through this cold projection or at least likes to question it. Sebastian gets amusement from watching the boy struggle internally, I think, and likely desires some outcome in which neither ruthless persona nor guilt-laden shadow ultimately wins. I believe what he likely expects, and perhaps works towards, is an end where Ciel accomplishes his revenge and then collapses under the weight of it, because the kind child inside of him is not dead, and victory will therefore bring nothing but despair.

Ciel in this chapter is so awe-inspiring and phenomenal because… who the hell steals someone’s identity then gets mad at the person when they want their name back? Earl Ciel Phantomhive, that’s who.

Is it understandable emotionally? Of course. He worked very hard to reclaim the title and the lands; even putting up his own soul as a collateral to the demon. Even if r!Ciel had survived, there is no guarantee he could have done as good a job as our Ciel did. But it’s also… hilarious?? Just unthinkable to any common person.

It is still very audacious, though.

The public school arc and its ending illustrate this beautifully, I think. Weston is indeed the future of the British aristocracy, but when the prefects charged with its protection resort to murder to protect its reputation, "for Weston made England, and England the World", Ciel seems more baffled and appalled by their actions and justifications than by the (much more personal) motivations of either Madame Red or the Circus. Yet what is the role of the Queen's Watchdog but what the prefects did at the scale of England itself?

it's not that i'm coming at this in a "sebastian is gradually changing for the better and learning to empathize with and/or regard o!ciel as someone he genuinely cares for" way because, as much as that narrative is fun and angsty and Just So Happens to make sebastian a little easier to relate to, it clashes with how calculated he canonically is.

that being said! he absolutely is changing. his character arc revolves around a realization that the tactics he's comfortable using aren't good enough, and this goes wayyy beyond undertaker being two steps ahead of his "punch first, ask questions later" instinct. everything sebastian does is catalyzed by a belief that, no matter how treacherous the situation becomes, he'll be able to figure it out with little to no effort given his superiority as a supernatural entity.

While it is true that Sebastian has exhibited way less supernatural power in the current arc (blue revenge) than in previous arcs, I do not believe that this is simply an attempt to manipulate Ciel but rather the realization that they would not be enough to fix the situation as a whole and therefore not "worth" using in a conspicuous manner at all. The main antagonist, for Sebastian at least, is Undertaker at the moment and we have already seen that Sebastian can not reliably win a fight against him. Therefore, he can neither "solve" the issue of the bizarre doll r!Ciel in a satisfactory manner, nor can he do much for Ciel's reputation at large without dealing with Undertaker and so on first.

Without dealing with these major issues, there is little point in fixing small issues - like a lack of clothing or something - through magical means. Moreover, Ciel has not asked him to fix any of the little issues using magic.

This is actually one of the more fascinating points of the series, and one I would argue gives us great insight into both Ciel and Sebastian as characters. For Ciel, who has no problem with liberally lying and cheating, magic is something he will not tolerate in great amounts. Part of this is likely due to his trauma, but a greater part is due to his very central desire to be independent.

Ciel fundamentally wants to be autonomous and capable in his own right. This is also a central part in his "revenge" - what is really, really important for him is not to torture and kill those who did all this to him, but the power to do so. I can totally imagine - and even believe such a conclusion to the series likely - that Ciel, when confronted with a sufficiently sympathetic reason for whomever is responsible, might forgive them. What he cares about is not punishing anyone so much as to be in a position of power and control over them. And that power must be his own, something he - at least in his own mind - has earned for himself. This is why he is playing the long game, waiting for the culprit to reveal themselves to him. He is trying to become "worthy" of this kind of power through hardship and work.

Instead of simply leaving everything to Sebastian, Ciel works really, really hard and does not mind being beaten up more than a little in the process time and again. We can see this a lot in the series - from the cricket match to the green witch arc, where Sebastian even comments that Ciel "should have left it all to [him]". Instead, Ciel - still beaten up and bruised like hell from the mustard gas - is running through the forest on bare feet in a tight dress rather than asking Sebastian to carry him.

And this is exactly what Sebastian respects in Ciel - his tenacity, his incredible desire for independence, his willingness to suffer for it. Sebastian himself mirrors these ideals - he, too, works pretty hard to master skills "the human way", to keep up his butler aesthetic, denies himself food as a matter of principle.

Throughout the series, Sebastian often takes on a "parental" role, fussing that Ciel stays warm, gets enough sleep, does not eat too many sweets. But we can see right from the beginning - in the BoA flashback - that Ciel does not fall for any of that manipulation, even when he is traumatised as hell, and half-starved and cold and tired. He fights Sebastian for the right to help him wash, and refuses food and just when Sebastian thought he had charmed that kid with the warm milk he still manages to make a nasty little comment about Sebastian's cooking.

Ciel does not want a "parent" in most senses. He is aware of the things he can not do on his own, and he lets Sebastian help when necessary, even if it irks him. We can see this very early in Chapter 1, when he does not just order Sebastian to make him a sweet, unhealthy snack but rather argues about it. And instances like that are frequent in the series. But Ciel never seems to really like these situations. Sebastian is very, very practical, but in the end, Ciel kinda loathes needing him for anything. And Sebastian mercilessly teases him for it, too.

The few situations in which Ciel is actually nice to Sebastian are the ones in which Sebastian himself is "down". At the end of BoA, Sebastian has failed for the first time. He did not defeat Undertaker - in fact, he is really hurt and kinda barely protected Ciel from the Bizarre Dolls. And in this moment, Ciel - who spent much of the early chapters setting Sebastian outright up to fail - is genuinely kind to him. Because he values Sebastian's hard work. But "You did well today" is not something a child says to a parent - not outside of situations where the roles are actually kinda reversed and the kid realized that no, they can not always rely on their parents fixing everything relevant, but hey, they are a person and they tried and they are sorry and deserve some grace. In that moment, Ciel is in power. And the bigger person.

And of course, this is kinda something that sets Ciel up to fail in his revenge, because revenge is usually not compatible with showing grace and being the bigger person. But I don't think it is something Sebastian provoked so much as fundamentally who our young master is.

And this is also what is happening with much of the current arc. With Undertaker and the Aurora Society, Ciel and Sebastian have a truly common enemy. What Ciel sees threatened is his autonomy. If he wanted to be a child, to be treated like a child, he would have gone to his brother's side, told him he was sorry for everything and would have been "forgiven" for falling prey to the evil Sebastian. Ciel does not want that. He does not want anyone in his life who tells him that everything is gonna be fine, they are gonna take care of it, he is a lovely boy and they are proud of him. Not at the cost of making his own, admittedly sometimes rather questionable choices. Not at the cost of his autonomy and independence.

I think Ciel knows that Sebastian does not love him, really. The demon cares for him in a practical sense, and respects him, though. And the latter part - that Sebastian respects Ciel - is something that I think is really what has changed in Sebastian's view of his master. Ciel has suffered so much with so little complaint, and barely wavered from his path at all and never attempted to weasel out of their contract, even when he could. Sebastian respects that. he probably also thinks it is foolish, but I think Sebastian knows that everything is kinda silly in the end - his own aesthetics included.

Ciel's need for comfort is a need for power. Prev points this out very articulately (and makes an interesting point about the potential outcome of Ciel's revenge), and there are multiple points through the manga where the comfort Ciel demands from Sebastian is the ability to exert control and power through him (thus implicitly over him?) - the astma attack scene is a prime example of this. He wants autonomy to consolidate his comfort with his own identity: I'm obliged to believe that there are occasions where Sebastian plays up being the beast so that Ciel can muzzle him and feel more in control, thus more able to connect. Though this is in the context of me viewing their relationship with more emotional authenticity, so take that as you will.

Secondly - I don't see it as necessarily strictly parental, so much as Sebastian keying up his participation in all the roles he plays for Ciel : parent, yes (and the point about his behaviour in the dinner scene is an apt one), but a genuinely devoted servant, a partner, a batman etc. He's disemboweled in his role before Ciel, most specifically, he's thrown down from being the beast Ciel can command (and Ciel is most comfortable engaging with him as that beast, because to connect with him in any other sense - to form his revenge through him whilst seeing him as something more akin to an emotional presence (whichever one ascribes specifically out of the many he embodies) is to both admit to emotional attachment to a period of his life meant to be a pre-death, and to betray real Ciel's memory). Sebastian is aware that the mode of his engagement with Ciel has shattered, thus I think he's trying to recoup by proving his dependability in the aspects Ciel favours less but nonetheless subconsciously depends upon. He's proving his ability to serve him in some way, when the way they are mutually comfortable with him serving him has been threatened.

Prev makes an incredible point about Ciel's need for independence being what prevents him from joining real Ciel's side - I'd say his need for authenticity is part of that. (They also make the brilliant point in the tags that Ciel is an implausible child - I'd call him the monstrous child archetype - situated within childhood's liminal confines and acting with an adult moral engagement due to the ways the world has failed to uphold the promises it makes based on the powerlessness frames childhood with. @fervent-fever and @existingtm have posts engaging with this masterfully.) He demands authenticity from Sebastian - not withstanding Sebastian's intentions, I do agree with op's point that he is becoming far more engaged with Sebastian as a result of the latters softness towards him, though personally I've tended to attribute that to him literally choosing Sebastian above his past in GWA, and the risen twisted presence of his brother potentially distancing him from the guilt he feels in cleaving to Sebastian over him; though not at all absolving the feeling of survivor's guilt himself, rather just subtly reassigning how he experiences it - and giving him a way to externalise it. I do think he'll end up killing real Ciel (and that will be his only sole kill), thus choosing between two manifested trauma responses, the lulled return and the survival mechanism one. (Blasphemous falsifications of family is SUCH a brilliant way to put it.)

@kuroposting This runs contrary to the way you (and I) interpret the development of their relationship, and you've made such incredibly articulate and well substantiated arguments supporting your point; I would be so, so, so intrigued to see how your view in conversation with this. (Screw it, also tagging @onehellofajellyfish @ceoandslutler and @funeralroseparade as brilliant kuro analysts I'd be interested in seeing discuss this - assuming op doesn't mind my tagging them.)

Prev, would you mind linking me to the essay you mentioned in your tags?

Your comments are all super interesting, by the way! I usually do not post much and just keep most stuff in my head, unless the stars align and I have a thought about a post and the time to write, and then it gets out of hand. But your perspectives are really fascinating.

My gosh, I'd be so interested to see an analysis of all of those concepts - particularly Nietzscheanism - Ciel employs the (imo, rather cynical and shallow...sorry, I've tried to like Nietzsche and I just can't) concepts of the Genealogy of Morals as his world view, and his way of navigating the world whilst attempting to feel as little emotional cost as possible. I think the world of Kuro is more Schoppenhauerian, but there's also such an intensely Gnostic presence, not just within its speculative metaphysics but its grim morality too.

I think the concept of the shadow self and the death drive are very relevant to Kuro, further Jungian and Freudian aspects would be so interesting to explore. Bataille, especially The Accursed Share, is also very germaine, especially in application to the parallels drawn between Sebastian and say, Kelvin, and the extent to which Sebastian does and doesn't exemplify the model Bataille suggests. He's still a devourer, after all. As I've said, I take a much more lenient view of the authenticity of their emotional connection, but I think so much of it is built up on wilful miscommunication and self deception (which the confrontation with Undertaker will ultimately force acknowledgement of), I think the way the nuance of exploitation and it's presentation, and how the central duo react and relate to the exploitation around them, go hand and hand with that.

An intersection of analysis between gender and the role of the child, the sense of permeability and angelic monstrosity applied in both cases, the concept of the gendered individual (often a woman, but not always, the character subjected to the hyperfocus of gender as a demarcator of personhood within a gendered system and it's subsequent expression) and the child both being vectors of transgression in a system stigmatising and valorising highly idealised images of their existence, the distance between experience and ideal...I could go on, I'll stop so I don't bore you and op. I will say that I think the Ripper Arc is severely underrated as rich soil for discussing both aspects and entrenching their subsequent embodiment in kuro. Gender and childhood both marked with idealised perspectives, sacrifice from one's own 'kind' (ykwim), othering, bodily exploitation and bodily deprivation linked to validity of self, etc...

I think Nietzsche is kinda fascinating because his ideas are often vaguely all-over-the-place, and I do not believe he has a particularly coherent moral philosophy, though he is quite critical of the morality others prescribe. I was also referring to Ciel's emotional journey, which I think mirrors the three metamorphoses so far pretty well, although this might also just be wishful thinking given that he currently still seems mostly in the nihilistic stage. But I found the language of lion and child rather compelling, as well as the "will to power" as a (vague, admittedly ill-defined) concept, which suits Ciel and his vague, ill-defined desires, which, to me, seem to be focused on "becoming" someone and creating a coherent narrative of his own life. Ciel does not seem to have a particularly strict, consistent moral framework anyway - he is generally nihilistic in his worldview, but also employs concepts of moral relativism and often changes his argument to suit his actions as an afterthought, only when Sebastian questions him. So the theme of "creating his own values" might be a central point of his arc.

I find it difficult to attribute a particular philosophy to Kuro as a whole, though Schopenhauer's pessimism seems to describe the perspectives of both Sebastian and many of the reapers relatively well. Though the reapers likely do not all believe in morality from compassion as a core principle. But there are many points in the manga where Ciel and Sebastian's views clash, and they seem to learn from each other, rather than one of them being consistently right. Ciel still surprises Sebastian with many of his reactions to things, so the psychological (and perhaps philosophical) gap here is a central theme.

it's not that i'm coming at this in a "sebastian is gradually changing for the better and learning to empathize with and/or regard o!ciel as someone he genuinely cares for" way because, as much as that narrative is fun and angsty and Just So Happens to make sebastian a little easier to relate to, it clashes with how calculated he canonically is.

that being said! he absolutely is changing. his character arc revolves around a realization that the tactics he's comfortable using aren't good enough, and this goes wayyy beyond undertaker being two steps ahead of his "punch first, ask questions later" instinct. everything sebastian does is catalyzed by a belief that, no matter how treacherous the situation becomes, he'll be able to figure it out with little to no effort given his superiority as a supernatural entity.

While it is true that Sebastian has exhibited way less supernatural power in the current arc (blue revenge) than in previous arcs, I do not believe that this is simply an attempt to manipulate Ciel but rather the realization that they would not be enough to fix the situation as a whole and therefore not "worth" using in a conspicuous manner at all. The main antagonist, for Sebastian at least, is Undertaker at the moment and we have already seen that Sebastian can not reliably win a fight against him. Therefore, he can neither "solve" the issue of the bizarre doll r!Ciel in a satisfactory manner, nor can he do much for Ciel's reputation at large without dealing with Undertaker and so on first.

Without dealing with these major issues, there is little point in fixing small issues - like a lack of clothing or something - through magical means. Moreover, Ciel has not asked him to fix any of the little issues using magic.

This is actually one of the more fascinating points of the series, and one I would argue gives us great insight into both Ciel and Sebastian as characters. For Ciel, who has no problem with liberally lying and cheating, magic is something he will not tolerate in great amounts. Part of this is likely due to his trauma, but a greater part is due to his very central desire to be independent.

Ciel fundamentally wants to be autonomous and capable in his own right. This is also a central part in his "revenge" - what is really, really important for him is not to torture and kill those who did all this to him, but the power to do so. I can totally imagine - and even believe such a conclusion to the series likely - that Ciel, when confronted with a sufficiently sympathetic reason for whomever is responsible, might forgive them. What he cares about is not punishing anyone so much as to be in a position of power and control over them. And that power must be his own, something he - at least in his own mind - has earned for himself. This is why he is playing the long game, waiting for the culprit to reveal themselves to him. He is trying to become "worthy" of this kind of power through hardship and work.

Instead of simply leaving everything to Sebastian, Ciel works really, really hard and does not mind being beaten up more than a little in the process time and again. We can see this a lot in the series - from the cricket match to the green witch arc, where Sebastian even comments that Ciel "should have left it all to [him]". Instead, Ciel - still beaten up and bruised like hell from the mustard gas - is running through the forest on bare feet in a tight dress rather than asking Sebastian to carry him.

And this is exactly what Sebastian respects in Ciel - his tenacity, his incredible desire for independence, his willingness to suffer for it. Sebastian himself mirrors these ideals - he, too, works pretty hard to master skills "the human way", to keep up his butler aesthetic, denies himself food as a matter of principle.

Throughout the series, Sebastian often takes on a "parental" role, fussing that Ciel stays warm, gets enough sleep, does not eat too many sweets. But we can see right from the beginning - in the BoA flashback - that Ciel does not fall for any of that manipulation, even when he is traumatised as hell, and half-starved and cold and tired. He fights Sebastian for the right to help him wash, and refuses food and just when Sebastian thought he had charmed that kid with the warm milk he still manages to make a nasty little comment about Sebastian's cooking.

Ciel does not want a "parent" in most senses. He is aware of the things he can not do on his own, and he lets Sebastian help when necessary, even if it irks him. We can see this very early in Chapter 1, when he does not just order Sebastian to make him a sweet, unhealthy snack but rather argues about it. And instances like that are frequent in the series. But Ciel never seems to really like these situations. Sebastian is very, very practical, but in the end, Ciel kinda loathes needing him for anything. And Sebastian mercilessly teases him for it, too.

The few situations in which Ciel is actually nice to Sebastian are the ones in which Sebastian himself is "down". At the end of BoA, Sebastian has failed for the first time. He did not defeat Undertaker - in fact, he is really hurt and kinda barely protected Ciel from the Bizarre Dolls. And in this moment, Ciel - who spent much of the early chapters setting Sebastian outright up to fail - is genuinely kind to him. Because he values Sebastian's hard work. But "You did well today" is not something a child says to a parent - not outside of situations where the roles are actually kinda reversed and the kid realized that no, they can not always rely on their parents fixing everything relevant, but hey, they are a person and they tried and they are sorry and deserve some grace. In that moment, Ciel is in power. And the bigger person.

And of course, this is kinda something that sets Ciel up to fail in his revenge, because revenge is usually not compatible with showing grace and being the bigger person. But I don't think it is something Sebastian provoked so much as fundamentally who our young master is.

And this is also what is happening with much of the current arc. With Undertaker and the Aurora Society, Ciel and Sebastian have a truly common enemy. What Ciel sees threatened is his autonomy. If he wanted to be a child, to be treated like a child, he would have gone to his brother's side, told him he was sorry for everything and would have been "forgiven" for falling prey to the evil Sebastian. Ciel does not want that. He does not want anyone in his life who tells him that everything is gonna be fine, they are gonna take care of it, he is a lovely boy and they are proud of him. Not at the cost of making his own, admittedly sometimes rather questionable choices. Not at the cost of his autonomy and independence.

I think Ciel knows that Sebastian does not love him, really. The demon cares for him in a practical sense, and respects him, though. And the latter part - that Sebastian respects Ciel - is something that I think is really what has changed in Sebastian's view of his master. Ciel has suffered so much with so little complaint, and barely wavered from his path at all and never attempted to weasel out of their contract, even when he could. Sebastian respects that. he probably also thinks it is foolish, but I think Sebastian knows that everything is kinda silly in the end - his own aesthetics included.

Ciel's need for comfort is a need for power. Prev points this out very articulately (and makes an interesting point about the potential outcome of Ciel's revenge), and there are multiple points through the manga where the comfort Ciel demands from Sebastian is the ability to exert control and power through him (thus implicitly over him?) - the astma attack scene is a prime example of this. He wants autonomy to consolidate his comfort with his own identity: I'm obliged to believe that there are occasions where Sebastian plays up being the beast so that Ciel can muzzle him and feel more in control, thus more able to connect. Though this is in the context of me viewing their relationship with more emotional authenticity, so take that as you will.

Secondly - I don't see it as necessarily strictly parental, so much as Sebastian keying up his participation in all the roles he plays for Ciel : parent, yes (and the point about his behaviour in the dinner scene is an apt one), but a genuinely devoted servant, a partner, a batman etc. He's disemboweled in his role before Ciel, most specifically, he's thrown down from being the beast Ciel can command (and Ciel is most comfortable engaging with him as that beast, because to connect with him in any other sense - to form his revenge through him whilst seeing him as something more akin to an emotional presence (whichever one ascribes specifically out of the many he embodies) is to both admit to emotional attachment to a period of his life meant to be a pre-death, and to betray real Ciel's memory). Sebastian is aware that the mode of his engagement with Ciel has shattered, thus I think he's trying to recoup by proving his dependability in the aspects Ciel favours less but nonetheless subconsciously depends upon. He's proving his ability to serve him in some way, when the way they are mutually comfortable with him serving him has been threatened.

Prev makes an incredible point about Ciel's need for independence being what prevents him from joining real Ciel's side - I'd say his need for authenticity is part of that. (They also make the brilliant point in the tags that Ciel is an implausible child - I'd call him the monstrous child archetype - situated within childhood's liminal confines and acting with an adult moral engagement due to the ways the world has failed to uphold the promises it makes based on the powerlessness frames childhood with. @fervent-fever and @existingtm have posts engaging with this masterfully.) He demands authenticity from Sebastian - not withstanding Sebastian's intentions, I do agree with op's point that he is becoming far more engaged with Sebastian as a result of the latters softness towards him, though personally I've tended to attribute that to him literally choosing Sebastian above his past in GWA, and the risen twisted presence of his brother potentially distancing him from the guilt he feels in cleaving to Sebastian over him; though not at all absolving the feeling of survivor's guilt himself, rather just subtly reassigning how he experiences it - and giving him a way to externalise it. I do think he'll end up killing real Ciel (and that will be his only sole kill), thus choosing between two manifested trauma responses, the lulled return and the survival mechanism one. (Blasphemous falsifications of family is SUCH a brilliant way to put it.)

@kuroposting This runs contrary to the way you (and I) interpret the development of their relationship, and you've made such incredibly articulate and well substantiated arguments supporting your point; I would be so, so, so intrigued to see how your view in conversation with this. (Screw it, also tagging @onehellofajellyfish @ceoandslutler and @funeralroseparade as brilliant kuro analysts I'd be interested in seeing discuss this - assuming op doesn't mind my tagging them.)

Prev, would you mind linking me to the essay you mentioned in your tags?

Your comments are all super interesting, by the way! I usually do not post much and just keep most stuff in my head, unless the stars align and I have a thought about a post and the time to write, and then it gets out of hand. But your perspectives are really fascinating.

Lmao you're killing me with that disclaimer anon.

No, I don't think Rachel particularly reminds Vincent of Claudia. We have a pretty limited view of Rachel, mostly through Ciel (and a bit through madam red) but she seems to be a gentle and loving mother, and physically frail. I see Claudia as more spirited/playful/mischievous - much like Vincent himself (who is still a loving parent). I think Vincent's choice of bride was business/politically motivated, not romantic - nor Freudian, for that matter.

But it's hard to know for certain when we've never even met Claudia! I'm cautiously hopeful she's going to make an appearance in Queen Victoria's death tale in the upcoming chapter. It's likely to be about Prince Albert, and it's possible Victoria might blame her for his death in some way...

This, for example, is the last panel in Madam Red's cinematic record before she begins to introduce Rachel, whom she describes with "My frail sister was a gentle and very beautiful woman, but she never put on any airs, and I loved her the most". This gives the impression of this delicate, ladylike ideal of the Victorian woman, which Rachel supposedly embodies, but Rachel's actions do not fully line up with this. I don't doubt that she is gentle with her children, but in the character guide, Yana makes it clear that Rachel is also the one who spanks them when they have done something bad, not Vincent.

And Rachel really can be quite silly, as evidenced by her behaviour in the hospital when Angelina had her accident - this is just a few days/weeks before the fire, by the way.

So Madam Red's description of her sister is about as truthful/complete as when Edward calls Lizzy "very ladylike, quite sensible and really not a bother at all". It shows that both Rachel and Lizzy are idealized by their siblings, but it does not really reflect their personalities much.

On the question of birth order, Angelina is significantly younger than Rachel. These are images of the two on the day Vincent first came to their home:

Angelina looks a lot - really a lot - like Ciel in the early chapters here in my opinion, and it is quite clear that there is a significant age gap between the two. I'd estimate Angelina was not older than 13 or 14 when she first met Vincent, and quite timid and insecure around that age as well. Yana has also stated at some point that Rachel is already quite a bit younger than Vincent (link), so he likely was simply too old for Ann, whom he first meets when he is approximately in his early 20s and she is still pretty much a child. Madam Red then also has a significant shift in outlook on life and personality, which actually mirrors quite nicely what Ciel did when he came back and literally impersonated his brother, largely inspired by Vincent's kind comments about her red hair. Madam Red's memories of Vincent are also a little strange, because in her memories of him, he does not have eyes, so it is difficult to see what Vincent is feeling, and it might imply that Angelina never really saw him completely. Her memories of Rachel, in contrast, are much clearer and more plentiful, even somewhat contradicting Madam Red's own narrative about how her sister was like.

it's not that i'm coming at this in a "sebastian is gradually changing for the better and learning to empathize with and/or regard o!ciel as someone he genuinely cares for" way because, as much as that narrative is fun and angsty and Just So Happens to make sebastian a little easier to relate to, it clashes with how calculated he canonically is.

that being said! he absolutely is changing. his character arc revolves around a realization that the tactics he's comfortable using aren't good enough, and this goes wayyy beyond undertaker being two steps ahead of his "punch first, ask questions later" instinct. everything sebastian does is catalyzed by a belief that, no matter how treacherous the situation becomes, he'll be able to figure it out with little to no effort given his superiority as a supernatural entity.

While it is true that Sebastian has exhibited way less supernatural power in the current arc (blue revenge) than in previous arcs, I do not believe that this is simply an attempt to manipulate Ciel but rather the realization that they would not be enough to fix the situation as a whole and therefore not "worth" using in a conspicuous manner at all. The main antagonist, for Sebastian at least, is Undertaker at the moment and we have already seen that Sebastian can not reliably win a fight against him. Therefore, he can neither "solve" the issue of the bizarre doll r!Ciel in a satisfactory manner, nor can he do much for Ciel's reputation at large without dealing with Undertaker and so on first.

Without dealing with these major issues, there is little point in fixing small issues - like a lack of clothing or something - through magical means. Moreover, Ciel has not asked him to fix any of the little issues using magic.

This is actually one of the more fascinating points of the series, and one I would argue gives us great insight into both Ciel and Sebastian as characters. For Ciel, who has no problem with liberally lying and cheating, magic is something he will not tolerate in great amounts. Part of this is likely due to his trauma, but a greater part is due to his very central desire to be independent.

Ciel fundamentally wants to be autonomous and capable in his own right. This is also a central part in his "revenge" - what is really, really important for him is not to torture and kill those who did all this to him, but the power to do so. I can totally imagine - and even believe such a conclusion to the series likely - that Ciel, when confronted with a sufficiently sympathetic reason for whomever is responsible, might forgive them. What he cares about is not punishing anyone so much as to be in a position of power and control over them. And that power must be his own, something he - at least in his own mind - has earned for himself. This is why he is playing the long game, waiting for the culprit to reveal themselves to him. He is trying to become "worthy" of this kind of power through hardship and work.

Instead of simply leaving everything to Sebastian, Ciel works really, really hard and does not mind being beaten up more than a little in the process time and again. We can see this a lot in the series - from the cricket match to the green witch arc, where Sebastian even comments that Ciel "should have left it all to [him]". Instead, Ciel - still beaten up and bruised like hell from the mustard gas - is running through the forest on bare feet in a tight dress rather than asking Sebastian to carry him.

And this is exactly what Sebastian respects in Ciel - his tenacity, his incredible desire for independence, his willingness to suffer for it. Sebastian himself mirrors these ideals - he, too, works pretty hard to master skills "the human way", to keep up his butler aesthetic, denies himself food as a matter of principle.

Throughout the series, Sebastian often takes on a "parental" role, fussing that Ciel stays warm, gets enough sleep, does not eat too many sweets. But we can see right from the beginning - in the BoA flashback - that Ciel does not fall for any of that manipulation, even when he is traumatised as hell, and half-starved and cold and tired. He fights Sebastian for the right to help him wash, and refuses food and just when Sebastian thought he had charmed that kid with the warm milk he still manages to make a nasty little comment about Sebastian's cooking.

Ciel does not want a "parent" in most senses. He is aware of the things he can not do on his own, and he lets Sebastian help when necessary, even if it irks him. We can see this very early in Chapter 1, when he does not just order Sebastian to make him a sweet, unhealthy snack but rather argues about it. And instances like that are frequent in the series. But Ciel never seems to really like these situations. Sebastian is very, very practical, but in the end, Ciel kinda loathes needing him for anything. And Sebastian mercilessly teases him for it, too.

The few situations in which Ciel is actually nice to Sebastian are the ones in which Sebastian himself is "down". At the end of BoA, Sebastian has failed for the first time. He did not defeat Undertaker - in fact, he is really hurt and kinda barely protected Ciel from the Bizarre Dolls. And in this moment, Ciel - who spent much of the early chapters setting Sebastian outright up to fail - is genuinely kind to him. Because he values Sebastian's hard work. But "You did well today" is not something a child says to a parent - not outside of situations where the roles are actually kinda reversed and the kid realized that no, they can not always rely on their parents fixing everything relevant, but hey, they are a person and they tried and they are sorry and deserve some grace. In that moment, Ciel is in power. And the bigger person.

And of course, this is kinda something that sets Ciel up to fail in his revenge, because revenge is usually not compatible with showing grace and being the bigger person. But I don't think it is something Sebastian provoked so much as fundamentally who our young master is.

And this is also what is happening with much of the current arc. With Undertaker and the Aurora Society, Ciel and Sebastian have a truly common enemy. What Ciel sees threatened is his autonomy. If he wanted to be a child, to be treated like a child, he would have gone to his brother's side, told him he was sorry for everything and would have been "forgiven" for falling prey to the evil Sebastian. Ciel does not want that. He does not want anyone in his life who tells him that everything is gonna be fine, they are gonna take care of it, he is a lovely boy and they are proud of him. Not at the cost of making his own, admittedly sometimes rather questionable choices. Not at the cost of his autonomy and independence.

I think Ciel knows that Sebastian does not love him, really. The demon cares for him in a practical sense, and respects him, though. And the latter part - that Sebastian respects Ciel - is something that I think is really what has changed in Sebastian's view of his master. Ciel has suffered so much with so little complaint, and barely wavered from his path at all and never attempted to weasel out of their contract, even when he could. Sebastian respects that. he probably also thinks it is foolish, but I think Sebastian knows that everything is kinda silly in the end - his own aesthetics included.

Can you imagine if Kuroshitsuji was written in linear timeline so the readers get to see how Sebastian gets progressively clingier with each chapter?

Ciel in this chapter is so awe-inspiring and phenomenal because… who the hell steals someone’s identity then gets mad at the person when they want their name back? Earl Ciel Phantomhive, that’s who.

Is it understandable emotionally? Of course. He worked very hard to reclaim the title and the lands; even putting up his own soul as a collateral to the demon. Even if r!Ciel had survived, there is no guarantee he could have done as good a job as our Ciel did. But it’s also… hilarious?? Just unthinkable to any common person.

It is still very audacious, though.

Like- where did it go after it was used as the sacrifice, or “trade” I think was how it was worded, that allowed Sebastian to cross into the human realm?

I assume/head-cannon that souls cannot be destroyed, or at least don’t “go away” on their own after a persons death. Why would the grim reapers be harvesting and keeping extensive records on something that just disappears? Obviously souls hold some form of power or essence to them, I mean, they are literally food aka provide sustenance for demons.

So, assuming that the souls harvested by the reapers don’t just disappear after a persons life is marked complete, then they must be stored somewhere in the reaper headquarters, right?

(It’s been ages since I watched S1, so I have no idea if it was the same sort of thing, but I remember scenes taking place in a library of sorts in the reaper headquarters? That’s the sort of thing I’m picturing.)

This idea that souls cannot be destroyed has one very explicitly stated exception, though. A soul eaten by a demon will cease to exist, Sebastian said so himself.

Now back to r!ciel. His soul was Sebastian’s ticket to the human realm, actually, maybe even his doorway given that he manifested looking as though he were emerging from r!ciels body. So Sebastian didn’t eat it, therefore if we apply that logic, it still exists somewhere.

I doubt it was collected by a reaper after the matter. It clearly wasn’t collected by Undertaker when he retrieved the body (if he could still do the soul harvesting in his retirement). I think he would’ve if he could.

So then comes the million dollar question of then where is r!ciel’s soul? Did it switch places with Sebastian and is now in Hell? Does Sebastian have his soul somewhere?

I think……I’m not sure………wait actually

Notice how he states that it’s “the fare”, not “my fare”, when later on he uses that personal pronoun when saying “my reward”.

Let’s see if I can explain this, but r!Ciel’s soul was sacrificed, or offered to Sebastian. A soul is the price that HE, the demon, pays to enter the human realm if they are able to quire one. R!Ciel’s soul was HIS fare. He traded it or deposited it somewhere else.

I guess my reason for thinking of this was wondering if undertaker would ever have the motivation of retrieving r!Ciel’s soul from wherever it’s at in order to fully revive him. If he’d use Sebastian, or even request him help, in that effort.

I don’t like the name Astre because “Young Master Astre” sounds stupid

I don’t like the name Sirius because it makes me think of Sirius Black and also just the word serious, which is stupid

so, with all the Mother 3 parallels that are very present throughout Black Butler, I’m hoping that R!Ciel and O!Ciel’s naming follows a similar pattern to Claus and Lucas

obviously if we rearrange the letters in Ciel, we can’t get anything that sounds good. God what if O!Ciel’s name was Lice though

but if we rearrange the characters in Shieru, the romanization of Ciel’s Japanese pronunication, we can get Rushie

just slap an “n” on that bad boy and you get the very real name “Lucien”

other reasons it could be O!Ciel’s name:

it’s got that “cie” thing going on just like in Ciel

that’s it that’s all I got