I can't tell if having two Jason's (I know they're twins, but you're essentially just splitting him, no?) would make their motivations worse or more forgiving.

Like, on one hand, they would definitely enable each other, an echo chamber for grief, of sorts. But on the other, I think it would give them an almost outside/secondary perspective on how their relationships look. Assuming both twins have a similar relationship to each Batfam member (which I have thoughts on, more on that later)

Like Peter would see Bruce interact with Jason, and would be able to read more into it than if it was with him. They would be able to correct most misunderstanding because they would trust each others judgment. If that makes sense?

Simultaneously! I think if either of them heard the plan to kill batman out loud from each other, they would become uncomfortable with the idea. Or at least Peter would. So the only way this makes sense in my head is to split them um narratively/chronologically and have their arcs run parallel.

So:

-> Bruce finds the twins stealing his tires, takes them in. Makes Jason Robin. Peter mostly stays out of it and focuses on school + helps Alfred be the guy in the chair.

-> Gonzales case happens. Friction between Jason and Bruce. Peter goes back to their old apartment and find adoption paperwork, does not tell Jason.

-> Leaves to find Sheila with Jason's Robin suit. Wants to confirm she is their mom, then tell Jason, but captured as "Robin" and killed.

-> Funeral. Back in Gotham, Jason goes after the Joker. Is kidnapped (x amount of time between the funeral. Could be a month to a year).

-> Peter is resurrected via pit because Talia mistakes him for Robin, or at the very least, that's what Ra's thinks. She trains him up and is the one to tell him Jason is dead.

-> Arkham Asylum starts.

-> Peter returns to find Joker Not dead, and his twin 'dead'.

-> UTRH happens alongside Arkham City. It goes a little differently because of Titan.

-> Peter kills the Joker for the climax of Arkham City and leaves Gotham for the Outlaws.

-> Jason escapes Arkham a week after Joker's death, and fucks off to wherever he went to get his militia (Was it the League that helped him in game? Was it cuz of Slade? Unsure.)

-> Don’t know how they would reunite. Possibly, Peter comes back to take care of Crime Alley and teams up with Batman because the militia idea is awful. Let's be real. Ends up recognizing Jason by fighting style and peicing it together.

-> For maximum angst, Jason doesn't recognize Peter and thinks it's his brain making shit up because he has like 5000 mental illnesses from being tortured for 2 years.

I've taken some creative liberties. For one, only Jason was the only Robin. Peter is also minimally trained by Batman, and I like to think that his fighting style as Red Hood would be almost fully League, whilst Arkham Knight's is a mix of Batman and Deathstroke.

Concidering DC's weird thing about making C!Jason more violent as a kid and Arkham straight up amplifying that to 100, in this version, Jason is the more active twin, and Peter sticks to the equivalent of a desk job. That's not to say they're brawn + brains, that would be two-dimensional and invalidate their characteristics as Red Hood and Arkham Knight, but I think UTRH shows a far more calculating side of Jason than the Arkham verse. Which mostly shows him as tenacious an resourcefull, and mostly reckless. Which is why I think this fits a little more.

Why don't they both go after Sheila, and why does Peter keep Cathrine adopting them a secret? Mostly, I just wanted to include the tidbit that in the Arkham verse, Cathrine is Jason's biological mother.

As for character reasoning, you could say that Peter takes the suit to keep Jason from going out as Robin and making the conflict worse in his absence. I like to think that because of their upbringing, they would be extremely codependent, which is why everything goes to shit the second they're apart.

Also, just to throw it out there: Bruce never tells Jason that Sheila was his birth mom, because, let's be honest, if he didn't tell C!Jason Willis died, he wouldn't mention Cathrine either. So Jason doesn't know why Peter left. This frustration is also part of what makes him seek out the Joker because he's sure he'd at least get some answers, aside from revenge.

Does this art by @jjmk-jjmk remind you of something…?

Which I think would lead to moments like

Roy: The second robin? I thought you died, what-

*Damian enters*

Roy:

Roy, empathetically: Must’ve been hard

Jason: NO

Or,

Reporter: And Jason and Damian, do they share the same mother?

Bruce: what

A cloaked figure in the stands: *loudly* YES THEY DO

Bruce: Talia???

Not to forget,

Jon, waking up after getting knocked out from a battle with Damian, watching Jason enter the room

Jon:

Jon, more panicked by the second: ...Damian? Is that you?

Jason:

Jason, reading Damian's handsigns from out the window

Jason: *hacking into Tim’s apartment’s security cameras*

Tim, trying to cook in his kitchen: -so what do we think, chat? is this good or should i add more salt? and what should i make for dessert, any requests?

Jason:

Jason, seeing the rest of the apartment completely empty:

Jason: we really need to give him an MRI scan.

after a while Jason just starts going along with it and it becomes less of a revenge attempt and more of a keeping-an-eye-on-my-little-brother attempt, because it’s literally the only form of surveillance on Tim from the batfamily that Tim doesn’t immediately find and destroy.

The two big non-comic canon sources that have in universe explorations and data on Lazarus pit effects are the Arrowverse and the Gotham Knights video game. Both have unique takes on the subject and, in my opinion, over complicate it. Ra’s al Ghul has been using the pits for centuries. When he met Bruce, my understanding of his character is that the pit had yet to have any visible impact on his sanity or personality. Ra’s’ anger is always controlled, he shows superior mental acuity and honesty most of his madness could conceivably, and in fact more feasibility, be from his existing mental illnesses and his inability to accept his own death. Ra’s’ madness always seemed to be his own, stemming from his antisocial tendencies, narcissism, and need for absolute control. When his own death was approaching it became much more apparent and he became more desperate and unhinged, but I don’t really attribute that to the pit’s direct influence.

All this is not to say that the Lazarus Pit doesn’t affect its users minds, only that those effects are not always so obvious as people believe.

Moving away from verified canon, and into my own interpretations and theories, I propose that the mental effects of Lazarus exposure doesn’t add or amplify anything, emotions or otherwise, but that it hinders or blocks certain logical pathways and connections. Jason is, of course, our best case to study as he was exposed to Lazarus water on only one occasion and the immediate aftermath is well documented. One major issue in attempting to understand the Lazarus effects is that Jason’s case is obviously not a controlled experiment, and it is difficult to differentiate between Jason’s own trauma and instability and the effects of the pit. Which is where Tim comes in. While it’s not verified that he was actually exposed to any Lazarus water I still firmly believe that he was. I’ve talked about this in another post, but for those who aren’t aware, during the Red Robin comic run Tim was severely injured while Ra’s was trying to recruit him. He needed an emergency splenectomy and when he awoke from that he was in a Lazarus chamber, a non-sterile underground cave. Tim’s injury was severe and he aggravated it with a lot of activity before getting medical attention. Tim never died and he was never put directly in the pit, but I’m reasonably certain that part of his treatment involved Lazarus water, considering his ease of recovery, lack of death, and the presence of a Lazarus pit.

So between Tim and Jason we have two cases for comparison. This is of course in no way a valid data set to draw conclusions from in real life, but since we’re talking about fiction and making up logic and explanations for things that originally had none, I think it’s enough. There are others who have history with the pits, but since, as far as I’m aware, they don’t have comics of their own giving deep insight into their thoughts and plans and actions, it’s very difficult to analyze them properly (with the possible exception of Damian, who I would include if I had actually read the comics he was revived with a Lazarus pit in).

In the time directly following exposure to the Lazarus water both Tim and Jason did show signs of elevated adrenaline, which could lead people to assume that the pit is the cause, however as both of them we actually in immediate danger it’s difficult to say for certain. Tim was in an unfamiliar place, alone with an enemy, in the same room as a substance he knew to be dangerous. Jason was being chased by hoards of assassins being led by someone he couldn’t quite recognize and then (if memory serves) pushed off a cliff into the ocean near a boat that he had to use to escape from an island, all while very confused because the last thing he remembered is dying and maybe vaguely clawing his way out of his own grave. So. Adrenaline seems like a natural response.

To me, the biggest immediate symptom looks like susceptibility to suggestions, with Jason’s quick trust in Talia and Tim’s acceptance of the White Ghost’s explanation of events and his subsequent alliance with the League of Assassins. While neither of them fully trusted the people I mentioned, they did go along with them easier than would be expected, as well as for longer than I think they normally would have. Their paranoia kept them from fully trusting anyone but there was a disconnect between that conscious paranoia and their reactions that makes me think the pit is responsible. There’s also the fact that in the Gotham Knights game this susceptibility to suggestion is an important part of the Pit’s side effects, though it’s less noticeable the less a person has used the pits. While the game definitely played up all the effects of the pit, it is an official DC game which leads me to lend some credence to its fundamental lore.

The other major mental side effect I believe the pit imposes on its users has to do with logical thinking about cause and effect. This is a bit more nuanced and difficult to explain but I’ll do my best.

We know that as the Red Hood Jason had strict rules about hurting kids. We also know that he brutally beat Tim when he was still a kid and had no problem with it. I don’t think it’s because he didn’t see Tim as a kid or because he was able to justify it by saying that Tim signed up for it. I think it simply didn’t occur to him. All he could see was how his actions would affect Batman. His understanding of cause and effect was so narrow that he couldn’t even imagine that his actions would affect anything other than what he intended them too. The attack was a message to Batman and Robin, it didn’t cross his mind that it could have any other consequences or that Robin was an actual person and not an extension of Batman or a symbol of Bruce’s perceived betrayal.

We see this same goal oriented logical disconnect again when Tim betrays the League of Assassins. He spent his time with the League doing everything he could to avoid killing or ordering anyone else to kill. He is adamant about not killing anyone and returning to his black and white morality as soon as he could. When he sabotaged the League computers and caused every single connected system to detonate his only thoughts were about the message he was sending Ra’s, that he would never be his ally and that he would always be loyal to Batman. He couldn’t even imagine that in doing this he probably caused countless deaths of people all over the globe, some of whom were probably innocent servants or prisoners. His awareness of the potential lethality of his actions began and ended with the survival of the Council of Spiders, who he thought probably escaped in time. I don’t think he ever realized that he’d probably killed people, and since his exposure to the pits was minimal I think it may have worn off before he ever encountered a situation where it was relevant again.

Actually this effect is observable in Ra’s as well and probably has been since his introduction. People seem to have forgotten that Ra’s is an ecoterrorist who’s goal is protecting the planet and keeping human civilization in check. The League’s original purpose was precision elimination of politicians and businessmen and scientists who could threaten the natural balance of the world. Sometimes they had to eliminate entire civilizations or cities to keep humanities progress in check. Obviously they didn’t succeed and their goal changed to mass genocide, which is how Bruce came to know of their existence in some continuities, but once Ra’s health started declining the focus of the organization turned to self preservation and maintaining power. All this is to say that Ra’s strayed very far from his original goal of preserving the natural balance of the world, and somewhere along the way he ended up so focused on keeping humanity in check that he forgot about actually preserving the world and all its other inhabitants and ecosystems, some of his actions and plans actively endangering what he wanted to protect in the first place.

Yeah it has nothing to do with his death or the Lazarus pit. It’s just piebaldism. Jason got it from Sheila, it’s just not visible on her because she’s a bottle blonde.

Bruce had him dye it when he became Robin because it was an identifying feature, and Jason had zero qualms about it because obviously that makes sense. It only seems death-related to the other batfam members because none of them knew Jason before he became Robin.

Jason absolutely used those little call backs they use in elementary schools, like “1 2 3 all eyes on me!”

So please picture some situation, maybe Damian is arguing with someone and it’s getting way too heated, Jason just tells “hocus pocus” and Damian immediately “everybody focus” and he’s so mortified he just stops and blue screens

ok no i need to talk about this because it’s fucking genius and has opened my eyes to something that i need discussed more.

because if Jason was Damian’s tutor when they were in the league together, then he was Damian’s protector/teacher/authority figure when Damian was what. seven? six? eight? however you fuck with the timeline to make your au, it would be between 5-10 at least. that means that teaching wise, Jason wouldn’t have just been his combat tutor, he would have been Damian’s equivalent of a fucking elementary school teacher (primary school for brits) which has got to be one of the fucking MOST GOD TIER THINGS- i’m now just remembering back to my primary school days and thinking about how that could have gone for Damian and Jason.

-you are right, Jason 100% would use those callbacks constantly. growing up on the streets he was probably well used to having to corral groups of other little street kids anyway; he knows the drill when it comes to keeping little ones attention on him when it’s needed, and Damian is no different.

-my teacher used to whistle really loud and then go ‘back to the centre!’ when she wanted our class to come and sit on the floor in front of her while she spoke, so i’m now thinking that Jason probably has a specific whistle that he’s conditioned Damian to respond to. doesn’t matter where they are or what Damian’s doing, if he hears that whistle he instantly wanders over and plops down criss-cross apple sauce at Jason’s feet. one time Jason instinctively did it when he needed to point something out in the cave while they were both working on the same case and neither of them realised how odd it looked until after Jason said ‘ok you can go now,’ and Damian stood up to go back to whatever he was doing only to turn around and see Tim and Dick staring at them with the most baffled faces possible.

-after they were finished with training Jason used to get Damian to help him clean up the training grounds by setting a timer for a minute and challenging him to see how much he could get done before it went off. if the area was completely cleared when the time was up Damian got a treat. now whenever Damian’s being difficult and won’t help Bruce clean up the cave Jason just has to start counting down from 60 and Damian instantly starts rushing to clean as fast as he can.

-Jason totally has gold star stickers. Damian thinks they’re the most precious thing in the world. both Bruce and Dick have tried to buy their own stickers to reward Damian for good behaviour but Damian does not care. they’re only precious if they came directly from Jason’s LOA inscribed wooden box that he keeps in his desk. Bruce wouldn’t mind if it weren’t for the fact that Jason keeps giving Damian stickers every time the kid comes up with an insult towards either Bruce or Tim that Jason decides is ‘particularly well placed’.

-Damian is mortified that all of these things have stuck within their relationship even though they’re now in Gotham. despite his hatred for it, however, he still instinctively views Jason as the teacher in his life. Bruce is absolutely devastated every time he painstakingly takes the time to teach Damian a new fighting move only watch Damian instantly cross across the cave to Jason’s side and ask that Jason ‘show me how to actually do it’ because he truly does have that childlike belief that as the teacher, Jason will know it better.

Bruce, watching Damian tug on Jason’s sleeve: …i used to be important.

Tim, biting into an apple: d’ya think we could get him to put Damian in time out?

Dick: i actually have seen him do that. Dami refused to stop training while Jason was talking to him so he made Dami sit in a corner for twenty minutes.

Tim:

Tim: incredible.

Bruce: i used to be a father.