sleep deprived punk ✶⃤

First of all, "arguably true"? No. That's not in the novel. That's complete fanon you've decided is 'basically canon' because you've seen it too many times. You're already starting from a place that's already wrong and then trying to "correct" something.

Second, KDJ does not "beat the fuck out of him back" as a pattern. They physically fight, it's true. They solve problems with swords instead of words sometimes because they both suck at normal human communication. That does happen. But for fuck's sake it's not a constant back-and-forth of aggression. It's not "KDJ hits him, YJH takes it". When they fight, they fight. Both get their share of ass beating. But those moments are specific, it's not the baseline of their dynamic, and framing it as "KDJ beats him up" is very flattening.

And then "chew toy"...A chew toy is something you use for whatever you please or stress relief without giving anything back at all. So you're trying to say that Yoo Joonghyuk—a character whose entire arc is learning to want things for himself btw—is just something KDJ uses. For his own amusement or whatever else. And YJH just takes it. No agency. No desire of his own.

Man that's not at all better than the alpha male take, it's just the opposite flavor of dehumanizing really. One version makes YJH a possession machine. The other makes him a stress ball. Either way he doesn't get to be the character he is or even just simply a person.

Their dynamic isn't about physical aggression as their primary language. No one just grabs the other and growls in their face. They don't constantly beat each other up. They also communicate through insults and pettiness and through silence, and maybe through staring at each other for no reason, and through life-threatening increasingly elaborate sacrifices like it's a competition.

to actually explain my interpretation and take what i'm trying to get at in my post a lot more seriously, physical aggression and violence is a big part of how they communicate. the first real honest conversation kim dokja has with yoo joonghyuk is arguably during the cinema dungeon fight, where kim dokja expresses how important yoo joonghyuk has been to him. and thats a trend that continues - for example, their fight during the war of good and evil that is explicitly a conversation. fights-as-communication is a common trope in these kinds of stories, which is why its not surprising its so prominent in their dynamic. its not their exclusive or even main way of communicating, but you also can't call my referencing it straight up non canonical.

kim dokja arguably does use yoo joonghyuk for his own amusement, that is a cornerstone of their dynamic. its obviously a lot more than that as well. they mean more to each other than i can really describe without making a whole new post about it, but all of that is coloured by kim dokja using yoo joonghyuk as entertainment for thirteen years (that was not all him reading twsa was, obviously, but it was part of it), feeling guilt for it and then continuing to struggle to see him as more than a character throughout the story. again, their fight during the war of good and evil is a really good example of that. of course yoo joonghyuk fights for agency of his own to respond to this, but thats not what the two sentence comedic post was about. i have other meta on the topic on my blog however

I'm realizing now that maybe you intended this as something like "KDJ is actually strong too and he can hit back, he's not just a helpless victim being oppressed by YJH". And I get it, I can see it if that's what you were going for. But on first glance, without the context of your other meta, that's not how it looks. It reads just as "YJH is physically aggressive, KDJ beats him back, and YJH is his chew toy". And tbh the "chew toy" phrasing especially is doing a lot of damage imo. Even as a joke, it lands...mmm, it just doesn't really.

The phrase itself been sitting so wrong with me beyond just the dehumanizing language, and I think I finally figured out why. There's a difference between "using someone as a chew toy" and what KDJ actually did. Like, a chew toy implies intentionality and it implies you know there's a living thing on the other end and you're deliberately using it for your own amusement without caring about its wellbeing.

But Kim Dokja didn't know Yoo Joonghyuk was real.

For thirteen years, he was just reading a book. A story. Fiction. He wasn't "using" a person—he was reading about a character. However intense his attachment was, however much he projected onto that character, there was no malice because there was no person on the receiving end. You can't use someone who doesn't exist. And even then—even as just a reader—he didn't treat YJH like a chew toy. He worshipped him. The "I am Yoo Joonghyuk" was his go-to to survive his own childhood abuse. He built his entire sense of self around this character. That's not using someone, that's just clinging to a lifeline.

The moment he found out YJH was real? Guilt. He spent the rest of the novel trying to atone. He sacrificed himself over and over and quite literally tore himself apart to give YJH a happy ending. A person who genuinely saw YJH as a chew toy—something to just use and discard—wouldn't do that. They wouldn't feel guilt. They wouldn't spend years trying to make it right. They definitely wouldn't die multiple times for the person they supposedly "used".

So the "chew toy" framing isn't just dehumanizing which is already bad enough, it's just factually wrong about who KDJ is and what their relationship actually looks like. Even before he knew YJH was real, it wasn't that. And after he knew, even less so. Okay now back to the main thing, I'm sorry for rambling.

I know that's not what you meant, but a post has to stand on its own. Most people scrolling past aren't going to read your other meta to get the full context of your views, yk? They're going to see this and absorb it as whatever they see it as because it has way too many holes for interpretation and keep scrolling. And that's the fandom's pattern I'm super frustrated with—shorthand versions that replace the actual dynamic in people's heads.

You're allowed to have a post that doesn't land. Everyone does. But when someone points out why the word choice wasn't the best, the response imo shouldn't be "you're taking it out of context" or "I have other meta that explains it better" or just straight up explaining the novel to me like I don't know it. It's not about that yk? That post exists and it says what it says, and without the decoder ring, it can just read badly. I'm not saying you're a bad fan or a bad person or all your ORV takes are shit. I'm just saying this specific post was not it. So, I stand by what I said about the post, but it wasn't personal and I wasn't trying to be offensive. I genuinely think you've written good stuff, this just wasn't one of them.

And look, this whole situation is kind of stupid yah. The post was stupid. Me taking it this seriously is also kind of stupid. But I don't know, maybe it's still worth it. Because someone has to push back when the shorthand gets bad, even if it makes me look like an overreacting asshole. Anyway.

First of all, "arguably true"? No. That's not in the novel. That's complete fanon you've decided is 'basically canon' because you've seen it too many times. You're already starting from a place that's already wrong and then trying to "correct" something.

Second, KDJ does not "beat the fuck out of him back" as a pattern. They physically fight, it's true. They solve problems with swords instead of words sometimes because they both suck at normal human communication. That does happen. But for fuck's sake it's not a constant back-and-forth of aggression. It's not "KDJ hits him, YJH takes it". When they fight, they fight. Both get their share of ass beating. But those moments are specific, it's not the baseline of their dynamic, and framing it as "KDJ beats him up" is very flattening.

And then "chew toy"...A chew toy is something you use for whatever you please or stress relief without giving anything back at all. So you're trying to say that Yoo Joonghyuk—a character whose entire arc is learning to want things for himself btw—is just something KDJ uses. For his own amusement or whatever else. And YJH just takes it. No agency. No desire of his own.

Man that's not at all better than the alpha male take, it's just the opposite flavor of dehumanizing really. One version makes YJH a possession machine. The other makes him a stress ball. Either way he doesn't get to be the character he is or even just simply a person.

Their dynamic isn't about physical aggression as their primary language. No one just grabs the other and growls in their face. They don't constantly beat each other up. They also communicate through insults and pettiness and through silence, and maybe through staring at each other for no reason, and through life-threatening increasingly elaborate sacrifices like it's a competition.