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There is a difference between comics fans debating “is this behaviour likely for said character” (Good Dad v Bad Dad Bruce Wayne, for instance), where there is nuance and opinion and preferencing readings to play with.
And “no, the reason I’m calling your theories fanon is that Dick did not threaten to send Tim to Arkham Asylum, that is a specific comic and you can read Red Robin #4 yourself to see that it does not say that”.
The problem with giving comics recs is that these are all different (sometimes overlapping) lists:
Comics that are actually good
Comics that are actually easy to find and comprehensible for a new reader
Comics that are considered Important
Comics that are actually important to the character's history
Comics that are bad and hard to find and incomprehensible but damn if they don't perfectly scratch that itch of characterization/my OTP/blorbo is Suffering
Everything the character has appeared in
People WANT "comics that are good AND ALSO comprehensible AND ALSO easy to find AND ALSO important" but that Venn diagram overlap is tiny. The real treasure is in "okay this is the 4-page backup story in an issue of Secret Origins from 1991 and the art is the worst thing you've ever put in your eyes, also it's never been reprinted or collected and isn't available legally digitally, it's the truest thing that's ever been said about The Character and you need to read it."
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now that i'm back on my bullshit and remembered tumblr exists, all i'm saying is i don't think there's a single panel in existence that encapsulates marc fucking spector more than this one
Is my math wrong or did Zeletz make Marc 33 when he goes to his father’s funeral having run way at 17 and been gone for more than 18 years?
How do you feel about him ressurecting in a tomb being witnessed by a woman Marlene whose name means mary madgalene?
It makes me laugh uncomfortably and wonder if the frankly christian symbolism for a character with ancient egyptian motif who quickly became codedly and then explicitly Jewish was intentional
Age is a vague concept when it comes to comics. Especially Marvel comics.
If you go off Lemire, Marc had to have been hospitalized prior to being 18, since he was not allowed to leave without parental consent. It's unclear how old he was when he went to his father's funeral in that time line, but I'd wager he was probably about 17. Maaaaaybe 16. Which begs the question on how old he was when he joined the Marines. He either joined at 18 or he forged some documents. (We got a year missing people!)
I know who to ask about Marc's age, though. I might hit them up with the time line question. He's amazing at this stuff.
If you look at Zelenetz, he was already mid life and well into Moon Knight before his father died. So 33 probably sounds about right. And in that one, he probably did still run away at either 17 or 18 if we're pushing it, since he was well on his way to being a professional street boxer for the time.
I think the name Marlene was purely coincidental. Considering he picked the name Marc Spector because it founded cool and it was the name of a guy he worked with and only later found out it was Jewish, I doubt very much Moench had any intent on that sort of symbolism.
I honestly can't remember when Moench found out that the name was Jewish. I know it wasn't at the start when he was in WBN and I'm not sure if it was there in the intro comics with the Egyptian background. It would be hilarious if it was all just an absolutely amazing cosmically aligned coincidence that a Jewish man is following the path of the Torah by going to Egypt to flee his family only to be resurrected and then enslaved by an Egyptian god and then slowly experiencing his own form of exodus. (I've mentioned this before)
And honestly, though Moench did outright say Marc was Jewish, he himself was not Jewish and never tried to depict Marc performing any Jewish traditions. Which is honestly for the best. It wasn't till Zelenetz that you got the real feel of his Jewishness. Other writers have pushed it under the rug and no one else has tried to show him and his relationship to his culture. McKay has addressed it in a beautiful way during a therapy session early in his run, but it would be nice to see the Moon Knight System come to terms with his damaged past in regards to his culture and upbringing (though his death prayer Shema brought me to utter tears and I still clutch it close to my heart). It's hard to ask a non-Jewish writer to deal with something as complicated, though. So I don't blame many of the writers for not addressing it. (I DO however blame Bemis for fucking it up SO drastically because he's a messianic piece of trash, but that's just my opinion).
What gets me about the age thing, though??! MCU MOON KNIGHT. We've got a LOT of missing years there. I would kill for those years. I 100% believe Jake probably ran the system during those years before Marc did his Military run and had some....Marc related issues.
re: age, purely based on Zelenetz, Marc was closer to 35/36 than 33 when Elias passed! And depending on how you interpret Lemire (ie. view the funeral presented as a metaphorical representation of the estrangement rather than Elias's literal death), that could still hold for him being approx. 17/18 in that scene, too.
But obvs comics are fairly YMMV, especially when it comes to the age of characters.
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Is Barney a good brother to Clint? I've seen that fandom consider him abusive so I'm curious what do you think.
Mmmm…. It’s a bit more complicated than that… I think he can be a good brother but he can also be kind of a suck brother. Neither one of them are perfect to each other and I think people forget that Barney in fact has lived through the same trauma Clint has, ie abusive father, bad foster homes, the carnival, “dying”, being manipulated and used, etc.
The abusive narrative I think started with people not understanding enough about Clint (because inherently Clint is a brawler with a smart mouth and he is QUICK to anger but if you’ve just read Fraction you’re not really going to know that because that’s the most LOW energy Clint ever. He’s a spiteful little shit tbh 😚)
Then we obviously have Blindspot where Barney’s being massively manipulated and used by Baron Zemo but most don’t know how he got there or why which is Baron Zemo literally stole his body and brainwashed him when he woke up lost and confused after everyone thought he was dead LMFAOO which leads right back to my point, people are not reading into Clint enough because all of that is explained.
So no I don’t think Barney is abusive. I think people kind of get stuck on the same three comics for Clint (My Life as A Weapon, All New Hawkeye, and Freefall) and don’t dig deeper so they lack nuance and understanding and a lot of the comic spaces are sort of big echo chambers for folks who don’t engage deeper because they don’t know any better! I think Barney is flawed just like Clint and they both are sort of “violent” guys so sometimes their interactions are different than what you would expect to see. Is it a wholesome dynamic always? No, not always. They don’t know what that looks like but I don’t think Barney abuses Clint, no. I know Barney cares deeply for Clint. That is reflected in comics heavily and just because it’s not the traditional sense folks are used to seeing doesn’t make it abusive. Barney was a kid too. Barney lived in that house too. I have to remind folks of that.
The fact that one of the few moment from his early childhood that were seen Clint fixated on on is how Barney used to trick him into doing his chores is soo funny because that’s just a normal thing older siblings do. Like if anything that’s the most normal thing we’ve seen happen during his childhood. But I guess because Clint grew up seeing Barney as one of if not the only person he could consistently rely on that felt like a huge betrayal. That or he’s just a bitch and holds grudges indefinitely and has never gotten over anything ever. Probably both.
I KNOW. Clint is just so petty ♥ I love it, it's hilarious.
It also kinda cracks me up because I’ve seen people in the Hawkeye fandom hating on Barney for that and using it as "evidence" that he didn’t care about Clint lmaooo. Like, not every sibling relationship is all lovey-dovey ALL THE TIME like in some of those Batfam fics (I'm not hating on them, just giving an example). This is honestly one of the least bad things that ever happened to Clint, yet some people treat it like it’s some deeply traumatic memory. AND BARNEY DIDN'T EVEN FORCE HIM TO DO THESE THINGS. HE DID IT ON HIS OWN AND BARNEY JUST TOOK ADVANTAGE OF IT. AND CLINT WAS FRUSTATED ABOUT IT.
Anyway, since we’re already on the topic, the situation with Clint being used by Barney gets even more interesting when you overthink it. Why? Well, Clint used a similar tactic with their dad.
See the parallels? Harold was a terrible father, and Clint tried to be the "better son" in the hopes of changing him—which failed. Then, he repeated the same pattern with Barney.
Clint: My bro's mean to me. I know! I'll use the same tactic I tried on our dad that failed miserably every time. This time it'll totally work!
Barney: *is still an asshole*
Clint:
So it's mostly on Clint that it happened.
Anyway, your comment "But I guess because Clint grew up seeing Barney as one of if not the only person he could consistently rely on that felt like a huge betrayal" is spot on. Clint clearly struggled with abandonment issues, which led him to cling tightly to his bro. It's tragically comical how he, in some ways, treated his brother similarly to how he treated their father.
Clint looks to Barney to fill the role of a parent, a role he can’t fulfill. Sure, during their childhood, he did take care of Clint, but he was still just a bitter kid with issues who projected his frustrations about the world onto his younger brother.
HOWEVER, we never actually saw Barney taking out his frustration on Clint in this issue. NOT ONCE. The panel showing Clint being "used" by Barney appears after this specific panel:
And if you look closely, Barney literally places a hand on Clint's arm in a supportive gesture.
AND after, we got this:
In the center panel, it looks like Barney is holding Clint's hand, leading him away from the orphanage.
Both of these panels gives us more of caring view of Barney than an asshole one.
This sends a completely different signal. How exactly did Barney take his frustrations out on Clint? We don't see it; expect for him taking advantage of Clint's naivety. Where the hell are spicy details? Give me the context, the specifics, the receipts, anything!
In other comics, you wouldn't find anything too. We are suppose to just believe Clint that Barney was a dick as a child and that's it.
Clint if you're going to shit-talk Barney then at least give us more context plsssss.
So, your other idea about him holding grudges are correct too, since we frequently see Clint acting petty in canon. Honestly, I can imagine he’s more upset about this than he ever was about Barney trying to kill him.
I would like to propose Barney "Beryl" Ross (born Dov-Ber Rasofsky) (1909-1967) as a stand-in for possible Marc Spector inspiration or at least a REALLY odd coincidence. The parallels are outstanding.
Born to Eastern European Immigrant parents (From Belarus), he grew up in a tough Chicago neighborhood.
His father was a Rabbi who looked down on fighting like Boxing and Wrestling.
When Barney expressed interest and talent in boxing, his father told him to "Let the goyim be the fighters" and that "The trombeniks (yiddish for phony and self aggrandizer), the murderers--We are the scholars."
Barney studied the Talmud as well and expressed interest in becoming a teacher.
His father was murdered when someone robbed their family vegetable shop. His mother suffered a mental breakdown and his three younger siblings were sent to an orphanage when Barney was just 14.
Barney became a thief, a gambler, and worked for Al Capone. He eventually found his money in boxing where it is speculated that Al Copone himself often promoted his shows and bought up the tickets to help him make money.
He used the money to reunite his family.
His career took off during the rise of Antisemitism and while Barney rejected his father's teachings and religion, he understood that he was seen as a "scrappy Jew Kid" and he needed to become a representative for his people.
His walk into the ring song was "My Yiddishe Momma" and he often wore blue and white with the Magen David on his clothes.
In the ring himself, he became a world champion in three weight divisions. He was never knocked out.
His last match before he retired he went 15 rounds where he took a severe beating. His couch begged him to call it, but he refused to go down. He was determined to leave the ring on his own feet". He had 72 wins in his career, 22 of which were by K.O.
When WWII broke out, he joined the Marines. Because of his stardome, they tried to keep him as just a pretty poster face recruit, but he insisted on fighting.
He was almost court-martialed when his commanding officer called him a Jewish Slur and he punched him out. He was spared because the judge was also jewish.
Barney was sent to the Pacific Theater and fought at Guadalcanal where he single handedly fought off no less than five armed Japanese soldiers after being shot. He then rescued his fellow soldier by carrying them to safety. He was awarded the Silver Star.
Despite his complicated relationship with his religion, he was known for bringing his father's religious study books with him to training camp.
In the war, he made friends with a catholic priest who invited him to Christmas Dinner. Barney could play the pipe organ and he provided music for the soldiers. When asked to play something Jewish, he played "My Yiddishe Momma" that left everyone in tears.
After his wounds healed, he developed a morphine addiction that he went to rehab for and eventually recovered. He went to schools and campaigned about the dangers of drug abuse.
He worked hard for the creation of a Jewish State and offered to lead a brigade of Jewish American Veterans.
The Jewish Community saw him as a hero and with his back story, he fit the bill of superhero status.
A tragic backstory, rejection of his father's life and teachings, rising up out of the rough streets, becoming a fighter, and eventually a real life war hero and fighter for Jewish Rights.
(Check out his biography- Barney Ross: The Life of a Jewish Fighter, by Douglas Century and his autobiography No Man Stands Alone.)
Moench most certainly did not base Marc Spector off of Barney Ross. He didn't set about making the character obviously Jewish at first. It happened naturally for various other reasons.
But Moench also didn't give Marc his back story.
That would be Zelenetz.
Moon Knight Vol 1. Issue #37. Published 1984
Writer: Alan Zelenetz
Artist: Bo Hampton
Cover Artist: Michael Kaluta
Now, I've broken this comic down before. HERE. But let's talk about the importance of THIS story.
You see, after the war, no one wanted to talk about the Holocaust. Most survivors didn't want to talk about what they had been through and most others liked to pretend that nothing happened.
It wasn't until the 90s that they came up with an actual mandate that it be taught in schools!
It wasn't until then that it suddenly became apparent that we needed to hear from the survivors and we needed to record the history before the first hand accounts were lost.
Until this time, the only stories being told were done in comics.
Early comics used it as a grotesque way to add in horror and action and violence. When the Comic book code of ethics stepped in (big shot guys that put down the law for swears being &#^$% and no sex and violence rating systems), then comic writers found 'creative' ways to use Nazi as the villain and ambiguously talk about their targets without mentioning their actual crimes or the people they targeted.
THAT would change when Spiegelman's Maus was published in 1980.
A keen observer will note the date Moon Knight Vol 1 came out. November 1980!
Now, Marc has fought Neo Nazi before and has even faced antisemitism. He's even gone to Jerusalem. But we have never had Marc connected to the Holocaust or explored his Jewish past before Zelenetz told this story.
“I grew up on the poor side of Chicago. My father was unconcerned with material things. ‘God loves a poor man.’ He’d say. ‘Poor in goods, rich in spirit.’”
Sounds familiar, right?
And while Marc is an extreme example, we see the conflict with the Rabbi father and the son who wants to fight.
In this same issue we see Moon Knight rescue a Rabbi and Torah from a burning synagogue that has a Swastika painted on the door.
Moon Knight hunts down the Nazi punks and makes them hurt.
In this issue and the next, we see Marc deal with his conflicted past regarding religion, his Rabbi father, and his choice to fight vs his father’s choice to ‘leave it to god’.
We also find out in this issue that the reason Marc joined the Marines is because of his father’s rejection.
"To become Moon Knight--A social conscience and moral force. Just, severe, unknowable."
I won't replay the comic for you guys, as I've already reviewed it (though I've learned a LOT since then and I'm sure I could bring more things to light at this point... Like the fact that to bring Elias back from the dead they write the Hebrew word Emet 'truth' on his forehead. Marlene erases part of the word, leaving behind Met, which is Hebrew for 'To Die' and this sends him back to his death).
In the ending issue, and last issue of Moon Knight’s first run, we are left with:
"I may have misjudged my father's saintliness for cowardice and his genius and moral zeal for fanaticism. [...] And isn't moon knight in his own way a moral zealot fighting perhaps for the very same values Marc Spector once rejected?"
Back to Alan Zelentez.
Alan only had Moon Knight for a few issues, but he was the first and as far as my limited research has shown me, the only actually Jewish writer to get to work with Moon Knight (I hope I am pleasantly surprised as I get further into things...but I'm not holding my breath).
Zelenetz fit a LOT of Jewish lore and fun snippets into this comic that only those that have studied Jewish folklore and the culture would easily pick out.
He was a Junior High School and High school principal at an Orthodox Jewish school in Brooklyn.
He worked as an editor, script writer, Judica advisor for film and helped get a few other comics started and established.
Now, is it likely that a Jewish man in Brooklyn heard about the son of a Rabbi from Eastern Europe in Chicago who turned into an amazing boxer and later a Marine war hero? Only Zelenetz knows for sure.
Idk why but I love it when an MCU/Primarily MCU person makes a post like 'Im sorry but Marc Spector did WHAT In the comics??' and when I look in the reblogs there's always a Comic/Primarily comic person responding with 'yep..!' or something and photographic evidence.
Comic person here to say that this post has me feeling irresistibly inspired to start posting some of said photographic evidence of the wild ass stuff that went down with this man in the comics.
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and soz, the images were taken with my phone bc i don't have a physical copy and the digital copy i have can only be read in an app and won't allow screenshots, like, fuck you too.
"yawning void". i desperately love the way this hearkens back to older runs and the way that marc has tried again and again and again to not rely on violence, to not be violent and for it to repeatedly come back round to feeling like it's the only thing he knows and the only thing he knows how to be.
and here's khonshu all but going "yeah, i won't allow for anything else in my service".
"where did he learn compassion? it was not from me." absolutely love this, especially with the panels breaking down marc/jake/steven later into the different aspects of khonshu. it absolutely shows what khonshu expects from moon knight (and marc specifically, i think), and reflects how he's treated him - how he's always treated him.
BABY GIRL, U IN DANGER.
"beloved younger son" (we all knew this)
"he may require correction." ("marc has been a bad influence, the fucker".)
THEN
THEN
jed out here just going "no" at everyone that's ever said "and jake lockley is the violent one"--
THAT'S HIM, THAT'S MY BOY.
THE EMBRACER!!!!
i just fucking love how jed is setting it out in transparent words that this is who moon knight is. he's truly taken what doug moench laid out in the 80s and updated it but still kept it in line with the original envisioning of moon knight, of steven, and jake, and marc.
like, fucking thank you, jed.
the tumultuous, difficult relationship that marc - and moon knight as a whole - has with khonshu, that khonshu has with moon knight. obvs it's khonshu's perspective so it overlooks (deliberately) the ways that khonshu has failed marc/steven/jake. it all but spells out the difficult relationship that marc had with his father - elias - the way that they butted heads, the way that they were estranged, but the way that, in the end, elias still reached out for marc in spite of everything, and the way that marc didn't want to, but he still went to see his father, even if he was too late.
it's not perfect, and khonshu's a piece of shit, but the layers to the relationship and the dynamic are just chef's kiss, and i love the fact that jed gets it.
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