i am always in awe of your sam meta posts and (if it’s not too much trouble!) i was wondering on your thoughts of a take that’s been floating around in my head for a while.

that if crowley somehow lived post s12, would he have tried to give hell’s throne to sam? how would -that- play out? would sam accept it there in early s13 and try to make a ‘better’ hell or would he be like s14 and abolish the position entirely?

sorry for the ramble, many thoughts head full 😅

Thank you!

Hmm, so we have two perspectives here: would Crowley do this, and would Sam agree. To which I would answer in brief, maybe, and absolutely not.

So first of all, would Crowley try to cede the throne to Sam? He says in 12.23 he doesn’t like his job, but I’m honestly not sure how to take that: despite his kvetching, I don’t think he’s in the kind of position where he actually wants to be disempowered. He’d like a break from the responsibilities while still enjoying the power, the perks, the security. So in that sense, Sam isn’t a terrible option. Despite Sam’s consistently expressed disgust for him, Crowley has a weird amount of fondness and trust in Sam. Sam, with his reputation and pedigree, could be a fairly safe place for Crowley to vest his power while he goes off to retire in Aruba.

Honestly, the more I think about it, the more I think a s12 Crowley would kind of enjoy having Sam as his functionary/steward/successor the way he’d dreamed of using Dean as an brute enforcer in s10. Leave Sam to do the heavy lifting and make the big sweeping moral decisions and stay on top of the paperwork and intimidate demons into line with his name alone.

Crowley’s self-proclaimed goal in 12.23 is, if he survives, to close the gates of Hell, and certainly that would require Sam’s cooperation, possibly even his death, if we’re going the Trials route: perhaps Crowley could even view the crown in Hell as Sam’s destination after this, a la Rowena. [Incidentally, Rowena TOTALLY used the cachet of her relationship with Sam to win her crown.]

I can, if I squint, envision a possibility where Crowley pushes Sam to accept the mantle of King and Sam accepts only for the sake of destroying and denying it a la 14.01, and locking the gates of Hell forever.

But something I don’t think would ever be on the table in late seasons is Sam trying to reform Hell, himself, personally, as a ruler. Far too slippery a slope, far too much intrinsic evil. He’d turn down any offer that would mean he had the position with any permanence. I think he’s far, far too sick of how Hell’s politics have impacted him personally for him to be involved in any capacity beyond shutting the whole machine down. Part of this is self-protective, but part of it is still grounded in the fear of touching his own inhumanity with a ten-foot pole. Sam is happy to say that any potential demon lord had better not start shit, but he’s definitely not going to think of himself as anything like a demon lord. Sam in s13 and Sam in s14 have really similar perspectives on Hell, I think.

Before I say anything, let me say that I haven’t watched since early season 14, so I’m a bit behind. I’ve been keeping up on spoilers and gifsets and such, but without actually watching the episodes minute-by-minute, I could be missing important stuff. Most of my analysis will come from Sam up until mid season 14. There may well be extenuating circumstances that make his actions make more sense.

Let me say, firstly… it shocked me. It definitely did. It is vanishingly rare for Sam to throw the first punch, ever. Both brothers have done some things while possessed or under supernatural influence, and I don’t count those against either of them. Sam went the first four seasons without throwing the first punch at Dean, despite many heated arguments.

And, to be entirely fair—Sam was under supernatural influence when he threw the first punch at Dean in “When the Levee Breaks.” On top of that, he was fresh off a detox that nearly killed him, one that caused him to hallucinate Dean saying some pretty painful words. Dean accidentally echoed the sentiments of his hallucination before that intense fight in the hotel room. So I think it’s fair to say that it takes an overwhelming intensity of feeling for Sam to respond with violence, never mind initiate violence.

So, yeah. I was surprised.

But I’m not sure if I can say it was out of character. I generally try not to call things OOC, because it doesn’t really help me or anyone. As soon as it happens in the show, it’s part of the show’s canon. 

Sam punched Dean. 

I can’t change that, and calling it OOC doesn’t help.

What I can do is try to make sense of it. Here’s what I have. Correct me if I’m making any incorrect assumptions about the episode. I’m going off gifsets and spoilers here. Is this more or less what happened?

Dean is planning to throw himself in—do I have this right?—in the ocean (???) in some Very Special Box/Prison/Casket with Michael. In previous seasons, whenever anything happens to the universe/happens to Sam, Dean is right there with his steadfast assurances that “We’ll figure this out.” Not this time. In typical Dean fashion, when Dean sees himself as part of the problem (or part of a very extreme solution), he’s ready to toss himself into outer space/somewhere more mysterious even than outer space (A.K.A the unexplored depths of the ocean.) 

Sam has tried to be level-headed about it, but it’s killing him. He really doesn’t want Dean to do it. He doesn’t want to lose Dean. 

Finally his emotions over any number of recent occurrences overflow. He hits Dean, states his belief, and begs to know why Dean doesn’t believe in them/their ability to fix this together.

Sometime in the last few episodes, he has faced Nick, whose face Lucifer wore.

It’s pretty safe to say Sam’s possession-related trauma is fresh.

Sam loves his brother. 

Historically, losing Dean has absolutely destroyed Sam. It usually comes out in suicidal actions/suicidal recklessness.

I could see Sam actually being driven to throw a punch in a situation like this one. Here’s what I have:

Sam has been willing to let Dean give up his life before, even though it nearly killed him. But the circumstances were different. Sam could tell himself that Dean might end up in Heaven, or at least some quiet, sleepy emptiness. This time, he can’t. That leaves us with,

Hell. Sam did the same thing with Michael and Lucifer, and he was trapped with them for anywhere from 200-ish years to several millennia. He was tortured until his very soul was literally “flayed to the raw nerve,” in Death’s words. The torture damaged his soul. In Supernatural, souls are literally immortal currency. Consider that. Consider the kind of pain it would take to warp a soul.

Sam remembers the Cage. Just last season, he admitted to Rowena how much Lucifer still terrified him. He remembers the things that happened in the Cage, and Lucifer wasn’t the only one there. Michael was also there.

Sam likely knows intimately the kinds of horrifying tortures Dean may endure. He knows firsthand that archangels will use their powers to make sure you never die. They will hurt you in ways a body should never be hurt and they will never, ever stop.

And Sam? The person he loves most in the entire world is about to subject himself to the torture that brings such shame and terror Sam can barely speak of it to others except in the most abstract terms. 

Part one: