you’re my man of war
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you’re my man of war

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She (Clytemnestra) describes her murder of Agamemnon in terms that invert the usual assumptions about gender roles. She was the hunter, he was the prey; she caught him in a robe as fishermen catch fish. He was in his bath and, therefore, presumably naked and supine; she stood over him, armed, as a warrior. These inversions of gender roles are shocking enough, but then she uses sexual imagery, recasting herself as female, that is more shocking still. She says that she enjoyed his blood splattering on her as flowers enjoy the rain of Zeus.Rain fertilizing plants is a commonplace metaphor for sexual intercourse. Thus, Clytaemestra seems to be saying that she derived sexual enjoyment from killing Agamemnon.
— Elizabeth vandiver, Greek tragedy lecture on Agamemnon by Aeschylus
aeschylus, agamemnon. translated by robert fagles.
Question out of curiosity:
Which of the Iliad, Odyssey, and Aeneid is your favourite?
I’ve read at least 2 and like The Iliad best
I’ve read at least 2 and like The Odyssey best
I’ve read at least 2 and like The Aeneid best
I’ve only read The Iliad, and I liked it
I’ve only read The Iliad, and I disliked it
I’ve only read The Odyssey, and I liked it
I’ve only read The Odyssey, and I disliked it
I’ve only read The Aeneid, and I liked it
I’ve only read The Aeneid, and I disliked it
I haven’t read any of them
For the purposes of this question, “read” means read at least half of an unabridged or minimally-abridged translation (or read it in the original, if we’ve got classical scholars here).
Iliad Epithets Ramble
Something I really like about Robert Fagles' translation is how he handles divine epithets.
I don't know if other translations have done the same, but there's a weight in them that makes the gods feel different.
One of Artemis's epithets is Potnia Theron—meaning "Mistress of Animals"—and Fagles translates it to:
But his sister, Artemis, Huntress, queen of beasts, inveighed against him now with stinging insults... - The Iliad Book 21, Line 435-436
Here, she's not just a huntress or mistress. She's the queen of the beasts, and the wild bows to her as the top predator there.
Then there's Athena's spoil-gatherer epithet:
"'Leap to it then. Launch Athena against him-the queen of plunder, she's the one—his match, a marvel at bringing Ares down in pain.'" - The Iliad Book 5, Line 879-881
I will give you gifts if Athena, Zeus’s daughter, Queen of Armies comes to my rescue, grants this fighter life and brings my son to manhood!” - The Odyssey Book 13, Line 408-411
And here Athena is the queen of armies and plunder, pushing her control beyond strategy but dominance, victory, and its aftermath—the kind of control over war that Ares doesn't fully command.
The titles hit harder like this.
Not ornamental, but as claims to power.
Artemis and Athena get to be sovereigns in their own right.

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A lot of the greatest characterization controversy we see with regards to Odysseus hinges on a singular phrase in the odyssey. Our oldest text had Odysseus himself explaining the Trojan War as “αίνοτατον ποόλεμον”
The second word means war, which translators can agree about. But the first, αίνοτατον, is a heavily derisive adjective describing the war. One of the most famous English translations, by Robert Fagles, translates this as the “grimmest war Odysseus had fought” and goes on to say he won it with glory and virtue. The text is certainly slanted towards a more glorious, positive light. But Emily Wilson, in her more recent translation, translated it as “dreadful violence.”
The phrase itself has taken on a meaning of awe-inspiring or glorious/honorable. But the Ancient Greek word actually comes from the root word αίνος, meaning dire, dreadful, or with great seriousness. In my opinion, the text really supports a more grim outlook, one that isn’t really centered on the glories of war. The word could mean awe-inspiring in a very literal context, but in our modern vocabulary we tend to view that with a more positive outlook. Instead, the word means that it was an earth-shattering and life changing war. It literally changed everything Odysseus was and could have been, and it began the beginning of the end of the Greek empire (or at least, that’s how later Grecian bards would view the cultural moment.)
All in all, the Trojan War was a dire war that was waged with the utmost seriousness. It was not really a battle for glory or spoils, it was a war in which the gods took up weapons to strike men down. It was the embodiment of all the worst things that Greek people had ever been through, it was an explanation for every tragedy, terror, and loss the people had experienced. I disagree with many of Nolan’s portrayals, but I agree with his use of Wilson’s translation that renders the Trojan war as the end of life as these characters knew it.
Iliad book names…
No because the Iliad book names are sometimes so ridiculous that when I think about them too much I never fail to laugh. Most are aptly named, but you can literally tell when they started giving up
What do you mean Book 10 is mysterious and called "Marauding through the Night" and then Book 16 is straight up "Patroclus fights and Dies"???
Like, that's it. No fancy name, no fancy vocab.
Book 10 is enigmatic and shit, whereas Book 16 just says exactly what happens. Spoiler alert! Basically, he fights and dies. The end.
what is the longest thing you have memorized?
Briseis' speech for Patroclus Iliad book 19 Robert Fagles' translation
Here is my recitation THOUGH KEEP IN MIND IT'S BEEN A WHILE SINCE I READ IT SO I MAY BE A LITTLE RUSTY AND MAKE MISTAKES
Patroclus dearest joy of my heart my harrowed broken heart I left you alive the day that I left these shelters now I come back to find you fallen captain of armies so grief gives way to grief my life one endless sorrow the husband to whom my noble mother and father gave me I saw him cut down by the bronze before our city and my three brothers one mother bore us my brothers how I loved you you all went down to death on the same day but you patroclus you would not let me weep not even weep you vowed you would make me Achilles' lawful wedded wife you would sail me in your warships west to phthia and with the myrmidons hold my wedding feast so now I mourn your death and I will never stop you were always kind
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