I don't know enough about the merle gene in dogs, like which gene it is, but I don't believe it is, as Splash is actually a lab-created gene, as in they actually manipulated genes to make it, reportedly in the 80's. As far as anyone can tell, it was released to private breeders in the 90's (back when that sort of thing happened when mutations occurred in labs naturally, as well). Unlike in dogs, the spl gene is not associated with any ill health effects; in dogs, the merle gene can be associated with blindness or deafness. It also doesn't suffer the same issues as brindle, which is mainly found in AY mice, and AY mice are generally prone to obesity and fatty tumors.
Where Merle (in mice) develops over time from a solid coat, splash is visible from the time their skin starts to gain pigment as 5 day old pinks. It is ALSO not brindle, which exists in mice too- brindle starts with a deeply striped coat that gets muzzier as they age. And it's not roan, which also ticks out as it ages and has no solid color patches.
Merle:
Splash:
Brindle:
Roan:
A nice splash should be fairly evenly marked over the whole body, with no big clumps of color.
This is a poorly-marked splash:
compared to the first splash lady I posted, you can see the large clumps of color that give it an almost-merle appearance, except that the clumps still have dilution flecking.
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I know a lot of animals have a Red gene, but are cats the only animal to have Sex Linked Red? I've heard of something similar in chickens but I don't know if it's the same thing. I just think the possibility of other Tortie animals is cool.
They are the only one with identified mutations on that specific gene. Chickens have some sex linked colors (most well known are barred, chocolate and silver), but since the bird Z sex chromosome dosage compensates* every gene individually, not with complete chromosome inactivation, there are no torties here. ("Tortie" used here as "an animal that carries two different alleles of a sex-linked gene which makes its phenotype a mix of two colors").
(*dosage compensation: When half of the population has two of the genes on the bigger sex chromosome and the other half has one (both the mammalian Y and the bird W chromosomes have hardly any genes on them), somehow it must be synchronised how much gene product is produced by those genes. Mammals solved this by calibrating the entire X chromosome together and turning off one in females. Birds do it by regulating every gene individually, so both Zs are on reduced activity in males.)
I know of three other mammals besides cats that have sex-linked colors: mice, horses and hamsters.
Mice have at least two genes (EDA and ATP7A) and a lots of alleles (respectively tabby, and brindled, mottled, pewter ect). In these alleles, heterozygotes are striped or patched, homozygotes and hemizygozes (XY animals whose X is mutated) are pale colored (if they don't die before birth).
Horses has a gene called IKBKG or skin lesian brindle, its lethal in hemizygotes and probably homozygotes too.
Heterozygous brindle horse. This pattern is caused by X inactivation, the stripes are lesions on the skin.
Hamsters have an unidentified sex-linked yellow, very similar to the orange in cats. Heterozygotes are even called tortoiseshell.
Tortoiseshell hamster
Not sex-linked, but phenotypically very similar (black-orange dappled) are harlequin rabbits and bicolor guinea pigs for example (both are alleles of MC1R, the recessive red gene).
And although it doesn't share much similarity with the cat color, just the name, there's a quail color called calico too! (It's an unidentified agouti/ASIP mutation.)
Can someone give me resources to mouse genetics? How the breeding, coloring, ect works? I’m fine with just links! I’ve tried looking myself but I’d like good, accurate sources but I’m not sure where to find them.
What does “self black” mean when you talk about your mice? I can only think of the genetics term “selfing” which is mostly used in selective breeding of plants, where a plant is fertilized with its own pollen.
It means the animal is one solid color all over, with no markings of any kind. So, no white spots, no different color markings (like tan or splash), no fading/shading (like Siamese or Burmese). Just one color, just one shade of that color.
Some stuff doesn't make them not self, it just makes them poor quality, like for self black, pale tail/ears/legs is pretty common and would be either a fault or disqualification in a show. Especially white markings on the tail. Blacks often have tan fault hairs on their sides, vents, nipples, and ears, and can have what's called "milk mouth" where they get tan or white hairs around their mouth. They also can have white toes/nails because those are the hardest faults to breed out. I'm 4 years in and still working on these faults, but they look significantly better than the average self black you would find in a pet store, and the line HAD been cleaned of other mutations. I don't know if it is still clean, but a good self black line is great for cleaning out other lines or using for outcrosses to help another line, which was the point of this line originally.
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Have you posted anything about C dilutes in mice? Like PEW, albino, colorpoint, chinchilla etc etc? I’m looking for more information about it.
SOME, since I work with siamese (c^ch), but not a lot about any other c dilutes. I work with a, b, and d (black, chocolate, and blue). You would be most likely to find discussion on the /mouse tag of my blog, /mouse+genetics, /genetics+experiments+with+mice, /siamese mice, or /siamese+line. Be aware some of the older posts have incorrect info, as I was still learning genes for the mice back then.
However! There's a great genetics website for mouse genes (actually there's a TON of sites with good mouse genetics info because mice have been studied to hell and back due to being... well. the most-used vertebrate in science), found here. They use the UK/European names for mutations, which sometimes vary slightly from the US names. Any breeders or other sites may talk about some of the same mutations (like dove/lilac) with some variation. This linked site will (usually) give you the gene name and locus, and you can use that to look up scientific papers that involve the genes, if you want to read more about them.
Question! From my understanding, genetic linkage is the tendency for genes to be inherited together because they’re physically close on the same chromosome. Is that something that shows up with the species you work with?
Depends! As far as colors and patterns are concerned, there's no known "linkage" in the mutations for peafowl (I don't believe there is "linkage" in colors or patterns for mice or quail, either, but I am less sure). Even though "peach" in peafowl is an inseparable purple + cameo combination, having cameo doesn't make a bird more likely to have purple also, and vice versa.
There ARE some linked health issues with some colors, but for peafowl it hasn't been proven to be "linked" or "because of" the gene. Which means, if a bird has gene A they are likely to also have gene B then that's two separate genes experiencing being on the same chromosome vs a bird that has gene A and gene A changes the color but that change in color is a side effect from Gene A's actual function. A good example of this is "progressive pied" in peafowl (NOT actually progressive pied but that's what it got called) is actually vitiligo in the USA. The spread of white is the result of dying pigment cells from the condition's autoimmune effects, the two aren't separate things. When you see progressive pied, you see autoimmune issues and other health issues. With charcoal, you see sterile hens and shorter lifespans, but no one knows for sure why. AY is a lethal homozygous gene and het AY mice tend to be overweight and prone to cancer, but I can't remember if that's a link or because of effect. Silver/Andalusian quail tend to be smaller/not grow as big (but I don't know why because I just avoid the color). Albino quail do poorly but I can't remember why. Manx mice have physical problems resulting from the bone loss in their hips from missing tails. I'm sure there's other stuff I'm forgetting but that's off the top of my head.
Do you think you could give your opinions on the recessive / lethal yellow genes in mice? Do you think you'd ever consider breeding recessive yellow? (If you haven't already.)
I'm just super curious about your thoughts on them as I don't really know a lot about genetics. Do you think it's possible to breed a consistently healthy line of yellow mice?
I'm just super curious to hear your thoughts as a breeder
Well, this is a kind of long answer and I'll warn it discusses animal death, so I'll put it behind a cut.
Personally, I wouldn't, but not because of ethics concerns; I just don't like any of the colors made with RY/AY. They're just not visually appealing to me. I had a couple RY pop up from the Taylor black line when I first got it, and they were just enh. A good, rich red, esp a satin red, can be a really perfect looking mouse... but by god that's years of work and it never ends because Red is such a hard phenotype to maintain and I'm just not that determined. I'm convinced that people breed for red because seeing it opens all the ferret cages in their brain, not because they can be normal about it. If you want good reds, it's like you dedicate your life (and mousery) to it or you don't do it, and my life's already dedicated to the peafowl. My mousery is already dedicated to blacks and tricolors.
As for the AY gene itself, it's a "lethal" gene in that homozygosity is lethal but it's lethal at the blastocyst stage so it's not really an ethical problem imo. If it was lethal as in the pups deteriorate and die post partum, or if it caused well developed pups to die/be stillborn such that it caused the dam health risks, then it would be a problem. But, it doesn't. You just get smaller litters because some cells die way early on and get reabsorbed. I don't really have any problems with that. Show breeders cull litters down to 4-6 pups (for dam and pup health reasons), so it's not like all of them would be turning into adults anyway.
As for the genetic issues with the adult mice, there are three major health issues. The first is obesity (sort of), and the major problem there is keeping them in breeding shape (meaning, capable of doing the do at all). Curiously, in at least one study I remember seeing, there's a difference between an obese mouse of X color mutation and an AY that's considered obese because of its natural body type; for example, an obese black mouse will likely have a shortened lifespan, whereas an AY mouse doesn't (at least not less than any other mouse color mutation) unless it's obese for an AY. So this isn't really a problem as long as the breeder is watching their diet and ensuring they stay fit for their body type.
The other two genetic problems actually are health issues related directly to the AY gene, and that's being prone to diabetes and to tumors. However, these are both things that (any good) breeders would notice, cull, and therefore not breed forward, in order to keep the line as free from them as possible. Which really isn't any different than any other line that develops health problems of any sort. People don't keep health problems. A good breeder should be and usually is aware of the potential health problems in the lines they are breeding, particularly if it's a genetic one that can't be avoided (like you can't avoid AY if you're breeding AY), and will know what to look for and intervene as soon as possible. Diabetic mice urinate excessively so it's REALLY noticeable, and tumors... well. Hard to miss. And tumors of various sorts is a fairly common "select away from/cull" problem in any mutation, it's just slightly higher risk in AY.
So the short answer, in my opinion, AY isn't really an unethical gene to work with. It's not one I'd choose to work with, but I don't think the people who do are doing anything wrong just for working with the gene at all. It comes down to the same ethics as any other mutation; working to maintain body condition and selecting for health.
Honestly, out of all the animals I've seen bred and bred myself, I think mouse breeders in general have proven themselves to be the most concerned with what's best for the animal, not the breeder. The show clubs like FMBA and AFRMA etc won't recognize standards for things like snub noses or manx tails or anything else that would potentially seriously impact QoL by nature of existing at all, and at least in the groups I'm in, the members are not shy about recognizing when health problems mean no breeding for a mouse regardless of how pretty or sweet. When someone newer asks what to do, I've never seen anyone support trying to breed a mouse with issues, or usually even keep one whose QoL would be poor. They are very familiar with the kindest thing you can do is let them go. It's a breath of fresh air from the goddamn chicken groups, who will limp along any bird that's still breathing regardless of what's best for the bird.
I think the only morph I've seen that I have an ethical problem with is the X-brindle gene, which is a "brindle" gene on the X chromosome that causes the mouse to be unable to absorb copper. This means that the males DO founder and die after birth (which means most people just humanely euthanize the male pups, they aren't out here letting them suffer that I've seen), and females get a strange coat color and curled whiskers from low copper absorption. Does have a second X gene that's clean so they still can, but it's really an unnecessary mutation to continue imo. It hasn't been recognized by the show clubs that I know of, but idk if they can be shown under normal brindle or if you can tell at a glance, as I don't really know as much about them or any of the AY gene specifics. I have basic knowledge but since i don't breed them myself it's very in passing knowledge. I know it's rarely bred or worked with in the first place, and I hope it stays that way or disappears entirely.
