#devon giehl

Finnegrin was such an interesting and exciting villain! How did you guys created him, and is there any chance he survived?

Devon Giehl: It started because we wanted to take the characters to a sort of pirate town after they lost Zubeia’s help, they needed a boat to get down the coast. We started developing the idea of Scumport first and then we decided that the minor villain they would encounter In Scumport, this pirate-y lawless town would be Finnegrin. At first, he was only meant to antagonize the cast for one episode, but we had so much fun coming up with stories about the pirate town that we decided to invent the three-part arc in order to be able to fully tell a bigger story about the pirates and the trouble that Callum and co get in with him. So, we ended up saying “what if he chases them?”, “what if he’s part of the plot for the next 2 episodes?” that he pursues them and eventually captures them. We wanted him to be really mean, but also charismatic and charming and he was inspired by the character Al Swearengen from Deadwood. In terms of any chance of him surviving, I think it’s possible, I like to imagine that he had some magical or clever way of escaping his fate. I would like to see him again because I really had fun writing him. Maybe he got out, it’s possible, he’s a powerful ocean mage and a tidebound elf, so maybe. I know that there were jokes about why does he worry about drowning and I was like “why did I write it that way?” but I think even tidebound elves probably have ways of dying. It’s probably more of a metaphor than literally. If you go down far enough anything will be crushed down there. And she’s an Ocean dragon, she can probably just kill him in multiple ways.

In our understanding, a major theme of the episode was the lack of control of things that are bigger and deeper, like the tides of the Ocean, the dark parts of ourselves, which are things we can’t and shouldn’t control. And we wonder what will it mean for Callum, who values his freedom and his choices, when considering that in the last season, Callum lost control of himself when possessed by Aaravos, and now he reached this understanding of the Ocean arcanum.

DG: As a character, Callum explores the themes of freedom and to me that connects to themes of growing up in a way that there is this moment when you are young, especially when you are an early teenager, you gain some sense of self and you realize your individuality, your potential, the limitless power you can potentially have in the world.

You come into yourself in a powerful way and it’s really exciting and you feel like you can do anything. And then very quickly, as you get a little bit older, you come into a place where you realize it’s not that easy. There’s so many things in the world that are bigger and scarier than you, and you start to feel more powerless in how you may confront them, overcome them, and whether or not you even can, you start to make decisions more out of fear sometimes, out of desperation, you compromise parts of yourself, and it wears the way that person thought the world was infinite.

For Callum, in season 2 when he unlocked the Sky Arcanum, he was over the moon, he was excited, the entire world was open to him, he was free of everything. But now, he is a couple years older, a couple years wiser, for better and worse, and this is a scenario in which he was sort of backed into a corner and the only way out he could see was doing something that he didn’t want to do. To me it’s tough ‘cause it changes what he might think he originally believed in only connecting to the Sky. And it makes him a little bit more complex, he rattles his assumptions about his potential and he’s not quite sure anymore if he is who he thought he was going to be and I think all of us go through that at some point of our lives, and it’s really hard.

With maturity comes the sort of darker awareness of dangers of the world and your very small place in it. Whereas the Sky says “look, the whole world is yours, it’s open, beautiful and wild, you can be and do anything”, the Ocean arcanum says like “now, hold on, it’s not quite that easy and infinity possibility does mean that some of these possibilities could be bad”.

Another theme of the Ocean primal is accepting there are dark parts of ourselves, and it seems similar with the Moon primal, that recognizes that there are sides of other people that are hidden from view. So, is Callum ever going to try to tap into Moon arcanum?

DG: There’s a little bit of connection between the Ocean and Moon primal, because they are sort of the push and pull of the tide, they are related, they influence each other. In terms of Callum and the Moon Arcanum, from a more storytelling perspective he might. For me it’s hard to commit to that because the moon it’s Rayla’s special territory. It’s tough because if you have Callum to start to be able to do all this cool Moon magic, it actually kind lessens what Rayla is and what she is capable of. I don’t think it’s necessarily impossible, but I think it takes something away from her in a way we don’t really want the narrative to do currently, which is why we gave Callum his own identity with the Ocean and Sky for the moment. All of the moon stuff is very much how Rayla shines and she’s not going to get other arcanums as a moonshadow elf, we wanna make sure that she still gets to be cool and powerful with what we gave her and not just take that and give it to someone else.

And does the Ocean (and Moon) primal reflects the relationship between Callum and Rayla, considering we also saw the themes of trust between them – even when Rayla temporary hid the truth about what she was doing in his office – and eventually help mend their relationship?

DG: Ooh, that's spicy. I think both of them keep a lot inside, specially stuff that they feel ashamed of or frightened by, and I think that’s very natural for a lot of young people, even people in general. Rayla kept what she was doing from him, and it wasn't necessarily an attempt to hurt him or deceive him, it was very much because she didn’t know how to handle what she learned about the coins, she had no answer, she felt like “maybe if I learn a bit more, I can do something about it, but I’m not sure” and then in the end she has her little vision and she decides “I can’t figure this out right now, even though I really want to, I’m gonna have to go help Callum”‘. So I think it was very personal for her, even when you are in really loving relationships. They are not currently dating, but they do care about each other very deeply, there are still things you attempt to handle on your own and not share even with your partner.

I think Callum is a little bit the same way because there is that sort of like not quite mended trust between them, you also see reflected in how he doesn’t tell her right away about what he did to get out of Finnegrin’s grasp. I think once you unlock an arcanum, it doesnt mean you are gonna be a perfect person and act by the thing you’ve accessed, it just sort of is… sort of like mental breakthroughs, but even when you have little mental breakthroughs in real life, you can still screw up and take those breakthroughs and be destructive with them. The trust between them isn’t perfect yet, but they care about each other enough the other is not trying to hurt them. When Callum said at the end of season 4 “I’m so glad you are back”, everything that followed that, to me, was about him living by that realization, he’s not holding things against her, he understands and cares about who she is. It still is not what it was, but it’s more worthy to have her back in my life than to continue to be angry and resentful and sort of keep her at arm’s length. That doesn’t mean that they are gonna be totally honest and share everything with each other right away, so you still see both of them still taking on their individuals burdens and struggling with them.

What were Ezran and Soren feelings on Callum being tortured and then Rayla being almost fed to the Levianthan? We couldn’t get much into it because of time constraints, but we would love to know more!

DG: The episodes are only 22 minutes long. I would’ve love to do a scene where everybody has like a sort of immediate reaction. If I had to write that scene, I think I would have a lot of people, like Soren and Rayla, basically everyone, making a really big effort to see if Callum’s is okay and if Soren is okay, but I think Callum is in that moment… He doesn’t really want everybody’s immediate attention, he would probably say that he was fine and to check on everyone else, and that’s why you see Rayla with Stella, and everybody coming out, letting off the shackles and things like that and then you see Rayla going to Callum, I don’t think anybody ignored him or took him from granted, there was probably a very brief like, everybody checking in with each other, but his emotions were very confusing. He goes and sits down by himself, huddles up. Then Rayla reapproaches him and you see it play out as it did on the show. Everybody was pretty scared.

In this season, we saw Soren bring up the fact that Ezran, despite being king, is still a child. Is this conflict going to be brought up again, perharps by other people in his council or other Human Kingdoms?

DG: I won’t say how it comes out, but I think Ezran struggles as a really young kid versus the King. He talks like a twenty-five year old, he’s like really, really mature and trying so hard to “grown up”, but I think there’s parts of him that are suffering quietly because of that and we will see that come in to play. The fact that he is a child and there are parts of him that aren’t quite ready for all of this will definitely impact some things in the future.

Ezran’s grief in his short story was such an interesting take in his character, and i wonder if we’ll see more about it in the next seasons?

DG: Yes… Is that too much? That short story was more like a tease for the next three seasons, not just season five. So it’s something that's simmering in him during season 5, season 6 and onward. You’ll see a little bit more of it. He’s outworldly, very wise, very perfect, but there is a part of him that’s very vulnerable to pain, just like everybody, It’s easy to say out loud “peace and love and harmony”, but to actually act on that, not harbor any resentment, is super human. Even he is not immune to that. Everybody has things they are mad about.

QUESTIONS FROM THE FANS

Will the first human to ever do primal magic be explored more at some point?

DG: As far as I know, it’s really open ended and would be the subject of its own story, at some point, but i think it would be pretty cool.

Is there a connection between Aaravos and Callum’s mind, to the point of giving him nightmares? Or is there something else you can tell about a connection between them?

DG: I like the idea that he has nightmares, if anyone wants to write fanfiction about it, please do it! I don’t want to say much about their connection, but once Aaravos has control and touched him in some way, this connection still exists and it’s not something that just disappears, it’s with you Forever. That’s all i can say!

Will we see more of the Silvergrove, or if some of its inhabitants will be making an appearence?

DG: That’s too many spoilers, but we will see more Moonshadow stuff, and revisit their culture in a meaningful way.

Can you tell us anything about Claudia’s feelings on Rayla, or if they’ll be explored in the next seasons? Up until now, they didn’t share many positive interactions, and now Rayla was the main responsable for Claudia not freeing Aaravos, and also cut her leg (even if it wasn’t her intention).

DG: I think Claudia blames all 3 of them with the same amount of anger, I don’t think she focus on Rayla specifically. She sees Rayla as somebody who poisoned people who used to be her friends Against her, she hasn’t really taken the time to consider her as a person. She’s “The Elf” and has a really hard time moving on from that, and I think this encounter just reinforced that. It’s a very negative interaction and They didnt enjoy it. I don’t think she’s gonna blame Rayla especifically, it’s those 3 people – her old friends and the elf. It’s not a specific focus on Rayla.

Will we see more interactions between Soren and Corvus?

DG: Yes. Without saying too much about it, there’s na episode written by our sênior writer – Paige VanTassel – about Soren and Corvus and a storyline they go through. It’s extremely funny because Paige is the funniest writer in the room, and i hope people like it, cause they’re just so funny. The dynamic between Soren and his sort of goofy, himbo humour and Corvus who has deadpan reactions is delightful, and Paige made a Whole story about it. You’ll see it in a future season, and I love it!

In season 4, Rayla says “we can’t save everyone”, in response to her decision to no helping the Drake. Is this foreshadowing for something that might happen in the next seasons? Or it means a change of heart, in contrast to her saving Phyrrah back in season 2?

DG: I think when Rayla said that, she was having a very hard time. When you say things that are against your own nature – because i really think she didn’t mean it, she said the most mean, tough thing she could think of because nothing was going the way she wanted it to go. She was struggling with Callum, stuggling to connect with everybody, Soren was kind of annoying her, and I think she said something completely unlike her, in ways that are difficult to take back. And in the next morning she realizes what she did and freaks out, and it’s just another small mistake in her inability to process her own feelings very well. She routinely proves it’s not something she really believes, but in that moment she was feeling pretty low and angry, and it did not lead her to take great courses of action.

Could Callum adapt Manus Pluma Volantus the way he adapted the Ocean runes to allow his friends to breathe below the water?

DG: That’s a really good question. Maybe? To be honest we never though about that. Maybe it might not work the same way. But It’s possible!

About Terry: will his role remain as an emotional support for Claudia, or question what she does – which is something he already does, and in this season he did it twice, so we wonder if it’ll continue?

DG: I think he very much sees a version of Claudia that’s heroic, even though her methods are dark magic, and it’s a choice she’s making to save her father, and he genuinely believes that’s a good cause. He’s not like Rayla, raised to be na assasin, he’s kind of a normal elf, just a guy, he’s not quite aware of the world and the threat of Aaravos and what everybody else is fighting. He understands Claudia wants to save her father, but he has very limited knowledge on what that means.

From Claudia’s perspective, Aaravos is a “bro”, he sat on her shoulders for 2 years and helped preserve her father. So Terry's got a diferent set of information than the main cast, and sometimes people seem to not consider that – he doesn’t know everything our main characters have learned, and we’ve already seen him a couple times Calling her out when she tiptoes on the edge of cruelty, when she gets very angry, when she lashes out at Rayla and doesn’t give her the coins, when she lashes out at the dragon and wants to hurt it instead of just stopping, and that will continue. But he genuinely loves Claudia, he thinks she’s funny, charming, loyal to her family in a way that’s truly beautiful (even if for us, as the audience, is kinda twisted), he’s seen her best version and seen her do incredible things to get what she wants, but she’s slipping a little, and it’s alarming to him, so we’ll see more of that.