#actor bird

Hi Wisteria! I’ve been loving your thoughtful and in-depth analyses and no one else in my life is familiar with the SHC system, so it’s been hard to get some outside perspective. English is not my first language, so please forgive my grammar/awkward phrasing at times. For my sorting, I am thinking Bird primary, though I’ve considered Lion and Badger primaries. I think I am not a snake primary. I have never felt there was an intrinsic moral hierarchy when it comes to people I care about. I still care for them, but at the end of the day, I think we are all living conscious beings who deserve equal treatment, rights, and consideration.

Definitely getting Idealist primary here (Bird or Lion, and I see why you're thinking Bird. Your whole position is well-thought out and well articulated.) I will say that 'all living conscious beings deserve equal treatment' is kind of the Badger mission statement,' but when we're in generalities that big, that thought could just as easily be coming from a Bird with some Badger in their System, a Paragon Lion, or even a really expansive Snake.

I also think prioritizing your own group is often dangerous.

This bit here could describe a Snake or a Badger equally well, depending on how we're defining the "group" we're talking about here.

A Loyalist would probably say that protecting the group is the only thing you know for sure you can do well, and when things get too big and Idealistic, they become unreal, hypothetical, and unsafe. But you seem perfectly fine with that level of big-picture stuff, so I'm happy to say Idealist for you. Also, there's an undercurrent of... suspicion, directed at Loyalists.

I guess I could be a snake that only includes themselves, as I do act in self-preservation a lot of the times

That's a human thing. If someone is *struggling* with turning on the self-preservation, that's a problem, and probably a sign of Burning, or a very immature Badger.

and struggle to trust people.

That can also come from a lot of different places.

I sometimes have an attitude of turning people bad in my head as soon as they act against me, or in a way that reveals their “true character”

Honestly, this kind of sounds like it could be a *Badger* thing?

Because Badgers have opt-out morality, they will often do this thing where you're one of their people, until you break the rules (or the social contract) badly enough. And then you're out, because you're a threat to the rest of the group.

(this is often a projection) and then tend to self-isolate.

Hmmm. And now you're back to being philosophical. Distancing yourself from the emotion of cutting people off. Much more Bird.

I thought bird primary because I do change my ideas about the world and morality quite often and refine my worldview as I discover new ideas. I am also very receptive to scientific ideas and do put logic and reasoned morality above intuition.

You also seem very chill about this whole process, which makes me say Bird again. (Not Lion. The process just tends to be a lot messier and a lot more emotional with Lions.)

However, my tendency to prioritize the perceptions of the group, my need to serve a larger purpose and my desire to be useful to society do feel quite badger-y.

They do. "Prioritize the perceptions of the group," especially is a very Badger thing to say. Badgers also like being useful to the group. But 'need to serve a larger purpose' is a big enough statement that it could work for almost anyone.

What Badger and Bird have in common is that they're both External primaries. What the world thinks is important, and you care about that in a way that Lions and Snakes just kind of don't.

As for lion, I do often act based on heuristics, especially if I haven’t thought out a specific issue yet.

Yeah, this isn't lion. For one thing - you used the word "heuristics." For another, you're stressing about the way you only rely on these "well xyz worked in past" mental shortcuts when you haven't "thought a thought out a specific issue yet." Implication being that, in a perfect world, you would have time to think it out completely every time. (Birds hate having to make snap decisions.)

I can also pretend to be more rational than I am, and tend to live life in automatic mode, by relying on assumptions and facts that sound good. I think I do this less than other people, but that is still a flaw I’ve noticed.

You rely on these "automatic" shortcuts less than other people, but think that you should use them less, and feel bad that you use them at all.

I wonder if you're a Bird primary living in a very Badger community. Or the flip, a Badger living with a bunch of Birds.

As for my secondary, I am a little bit lost. I am very much in my own head and not very action-oriented, so I feel like I lack the data to identify my secondary, or I am burned and just using whatever works. I usually just use stress to motivate action and procrastinate until the last minute.

Oh, the neurodivergent special. Save the non-preferred task for the last minute, and then use the adrenaline that generates to hack your brain into getting it done really fast. Definitely not the only person here doing that.

Childhood: As a kid, I was extremely quiet, sensitive, and introverted. From early on, I remember being very artistic and curious. I would dress up and improvise plays in front of my family. I also loved to draw, write poems, walk in nature, and learn about the world (I was especially fascinated with animals). I also loved to get lost in imaginary worlds, and I remember writing fantasy stories, and believing I had magical powers or was an alien/magical creature.

When I was in school, I remember not connecting very well with my peers. I think people could feel I was different. I was soft spoken, sensitive, and I excelled at school.

I mean so far, *I*could have written this. And I'll take it all into account, but this isn't a system for describing personality, so much as it is one for describing method/motivation.

I didn’t like sports like other boys, and it wasn’t acceptable to hang out with girls, so I just kept to myself. I was already doing good in school, so I just kind of developed that aspect of my identity. I didn’t get along with many other kids and ate lunch with my teachers a lot. I still had friends, but few of them were close.

You're describing constructing your identity in a very deliberate, conscious way, which is more Bird than Badger. It's honestly Bird secondary - like this how you get Actor Bird, deliberately developing one 'version' of yourself because it's useful in certain situation. I'm hearing you enjoyed acting and costumes, and (flash forward to present day) you "pretended" to be more rational than you are. I think you might be an Actor Bird.

It was validating to be so good at academics, and to get teachers’ and parents’ approval. Even if some other kids resented it, I didn’t care because it gave me worth.

This hits every child to some degree, but it hits External primaries very hard. This could describe a young Bird or a young Badger equally well, and now I'm wondering if any of these authority figures especially Birdy or especially Badgery?

Getting good grades, being the perfect child, being “mature for my age” were a big part of my personality.

"Perfect Child" is often an Actor Bird construction. "Mature for your age" is something I usually hear said about young Badgers. Are you maybe a Bird primary, with a very Badger-flavored System? It would fit everything I've read so far.

I also knew deep down I was queer

oh thats brutal

but I eventually became really good at self-editing, and I began to embody a version of me that was acceptable. I was the successful, responsible, smart kid, and I eventually started playing football in high school so that of course meant I was straight. I fully made myself believe the mask I was putting on at that time (badger-like?). In high school, I was tired of being an outsider, so I tried fitting in. I became much more agreeable, sociable, and started becoming more popular. Honestly, it felt good to be appreciated by my peers, and I did play into the character I was projecting. I was still hyper-focused on academics, but for the first time, people actually liked me.

Okay, so I do see why you're saying Badger. Badgers (especially young badgers) can just adopt the group's identity, and lose sight of their own individuality in the process. But I don't think that's what's going on here.

To me, this sounds like it could only be Actor Bird. I know English isn't your first language, so I'm not reading too too much into the word choice... but you do refer to this "Acceptable Self" as a "character," that you "embody." Building this "mask" was a deliberate, conscious process, and it sound like you lived in this persona for a while. Also, not ignoring the fact that... it worked. Wanting to be more popular, and then building a persona that is more popular... that's not something everyone can do.

This actually makes me think of a sorting I wrote for Blackbeard of Our Flag Means Death, and the Actor Bird-specific angst of building a character, spending a little too long in that skin and then feeling that people only like you/you only have worth because of a role you play... and then becoming trapped, because your character is too simple, and it's stifling.

I eventually came to accept my sexuality and had a friendship that made me confront the lack of authenticity of the mask I was putting on. After that, I explored my authentic self while still enjoying my newfound social skills and ability to attract people.

I love that. You built a "popular" persona, and then realized that you din't have to wear it all the time.

I also started getting interested in social justice, philosophy, and politics, which made me question a lot of preconceived notions and ideas I held true about the world.

Oh that's a very Bird primary list of interests right there.

As I became more informed, ethics and morality became a big corner stone of my interactions with the world. I was always interested in finding the “right” way to be, even as a child,

This almost seems like a version of the "book fantasy," which is something I've heard from several Bird primaries at this point: "When I was younger, I wished that there was a magic book that would tell me the 'right' way to act in every situation."

but this meant I could figure out what that meant in more objective terms, and for myself instead of what adults thought. Paradigm shifts were exciting (and still are).

I absolutely love that for you. Bravo.

Family dynamics:

In terms of family dynamics, I always went along to get along. I was checked out emotionally, especially since a lot of family members would say homophobic things, and I never felt completely comfortable with them. I stuck with easy topics and didn’t go into my personal life, and I was content with the image of the golden child they had of me. Even with my parents, whom I love, I never felt I could completely be myself. This led to a lot of secrets and lies to conceal my real self. I was never that rebellious or troublesome to begin with, and I kind of acted like a little adult.

Okay. That makes sense. Sounds like you built a pretty robust Badger primary model that was useful for keeping the peace with your family. (It also sounds just, incredibly necessary.) This explains why a lot of your descriptions of your younger self read as super Badger primary to me: "little adult" "mature for your age" "farming the approval of authority figure."

I also thought a lot of their views were outdated, although I rarely argued with them. My dad had the idea he had to be strict, which was just not the best fit for me. I learned to be extremely secretive, sneaky, and find ways around the rules. I was not very wild to begin with, but I did value my freedom. I just kind of passively agreed, and then did it behind their backs.

Sounds possible you might have a little bit of a snake secondary model?

Although my dad was very sensitive and affectionate, a thing that hurt me a lot was his inability to deal with others’ emotions. I was not allowed to express negative emotions or cry, and he justified this as him being “old school”.

Ah yes. As we know, boys should only have Cool emotions, like Anger and Science. Wondering if your *Dad* might be a Badger primary, with this focus on Tradition and Rules.

This was extremely frustrating to me, as I never understood how tradition could be a valuable reason for anything, or how sticking with old values and refusing to adapt was acceptable.

A little bit of that Bird primary 'make it make sense' thing.

My mom, though more accepting of my sensitivity, was also very critical. She used the status quo to judge what I did, which was also very frustrating. If something I did was weird or impolite, she would use a kind of circular reasoning (this is bad because it’s not socially acceptable, and it’s not socially acceptable because it’s bad), which was also confusing to me.

I love that you can now identify that as classic circular reasoning.

I just wasn’t super interested in developing a strong connection with anyone in my family. I just felt that it was all too arbitrary,

Definitely don't think you're a Loyalist, because I don't think a Loyalist could do a break this clean. There'd be some sense of something... some guilt, some emotion, some residual thing.

and I was more interested in exploring my friendships with people who understood me more deeply. I felt my parents’ (especially dad’s) rules didn’t make any sense, and I wanted my freedom as soon as possible. Since I moved out, our relationship has been a lot better, though I still hide aspects of my life from them.

Very true that just not needing to be around your family 24/27 makes things so much better and easier to deal with.

Problem solving: In terms of problem solving, I like to think I am strategic, and a good contingency planner. I generally understand things well, and how they work together, and am quick to find a solution. When thinking about solving a small problem, I will usually think of the “goal state” first (i.e., what is the ideal I am trying to achieve in this situation). Then I can break down what I need to do. This usually starts with evaluating resources at my disposal (i.e., time, space, material, or mental resources), and what is in the environment. Then, I can come to a solution implicitly by connecting the dots. Finally, I will mentally play out the situation and see if it works, or if there are any roadblocks. This all happens quickly though. Planning is fun, but so is throwing away the plan or finding a clever way to get out of the situation.

What a fantastic breakdown of how to solve a problem. It's also extremely Bird secondary. If it happens fast enough, and you're comfortable enough with it, it looks like it even gets into Rapid-Fire Bird territory (probably why I was getting a little Snake secondary energy up there, Rapid-fire birds can look extremely Snake.)

Am a little bit side-eyeing your decision to call yourself "not very action-oriented" up there. You seem perfectly comfortable with problem-solving to me.

Whenever the unexpected happen, the path becomes really obvious to me. Priorities become salient, and things that are useless fall to the side. It’s more in situations where I’m forced to make a controlled decision that I’m a nervous and indecisive wreck.

Bird primaries HATE making snap decisions.

I can get stressed out if there is missing information, or if the expectations aren’t clear. Travel is especially stressful because of the number of unexpected events that can affect the rest of the trip.

I mean, no one likes missing information or unclear expectations. But it really gets to Birds. (Both primary and secondary honestly. and I'm really thinking that you're a Double Bird.)

With all the information, even if it’s bad news, I can manage and find a solution. But my brain will keep spinning scenarios if I don’t know for sure. Even at school, uncertainty was always worse than bad news.

I hear this. It really goes back to that classic Bird primary fantasy: "but I want to know EVERYTHING"

Not knowing where I stand with someone, with a group, or with a supervisor also makes me nervous. I like knowing what they think of me and what people need from me so I can provide it (or not bother if they dislike me for no reason).

I do think that you have a Badger model, or a Badger flavor to your system. Honestly, you very likely have bOTH. You took in the parts of your parents worldview that made sense to you: it IS useful to know what people want from you, and to know that you aren't making any social faux pas (that way, if someone is acting weird at you, you know it doesn't have to do with you.) But you also have this much more performative Badger model: this is who my parents expect me to be, I don't agree with it, but I can put it on and let it run.

In terms of interpersonal problems, this is where I am most terrible. I am often an absolute doormat and will not vocalize problems and internalize everything. My issue is that I don’t feel confident that I am right and doubt my ability to argue my point and stand up for myself without absolutely ruining the relationship.

Unfortunately, I can't say I'm *surprised,* since you grew up in an environment where arguing was very frowned upon, and it's not like you can win an argument with someone depending on circular arguments and logical fallacies.

You also built a large part of your *identity* around this Perfect Child, Invisible Badger who just does not cause problems. In the language of this system, you built a very intense Badger primary model as a coping mechanism, and now it's run out it's usefulness... but is still hard to punch through, because old models get sticky.

If something bothers me, I will mull over it and eventually let it go because it becomes too late.

Okay, *this* is why you thought there might be some Burning going on. There's this aspect of the way you relate to people that just feels very unsafe, and so you... shut it down.

I think the problems here are uncertainty, and lack of control. When I am in a situation where I know all the elements, have resources, and plenty of time, I am good.

That is absolutely Textbook Double Bird. But (as I'm sure I don't have to tell you)... it's also a fantasy. Very often, you will be lacking in either resources, info, or time. This is why a lot of Double Birds build models, or look like Lion secondaries whenever they don't have time to prep.

If there is an unknown, I can’t do anything.

In the language of this system, that's a Bird primary that's Exploded a little bit, this idea that you can't possibly act if you don't have all the information. It's very Chidi from The Good Place.

In social situations, I can’t control the volatility of relationships or other people, so I just control my reaction.

Pretty much all you can control, so good.

Often, instead of doing something when something is bothering me, I will basically force a paradigm shift to see the situation in a better light, and then move on.

Bird primaries are known for the superpower of just being able to *decide* to like something, or *decide* to be interested in something. That is absolutely what you're doing here. It's *a* way to solve that problem, I guess. But it doesn't seem to make you feel free/powerful.

I kind of have an addiction with the process of solving, and an intolerance for doubt. When I was questioning my career choices, I would reflect on all aspects of my personality, of my goals for the future, I would take endless career quizzes, read the descriptions of jobs over and over, would ask my friends what they thought I should do, etc. I would run in circles, never deciding. I even started deconstructing the philosophy of work, to determine if it was even possible to make a good decision.

Very Bird. Very *exploded* Bird. Of course you went from "what job do I want" to "is the concept of work philosophically moral."

Other questions: My future plans is to live a relatively quiet life out of the public eye, surrounded by books, and having plenty of free time to research or practice my hobbies. I want a stable job, with money so I don’t have to think about those things, and I want to be intellectually stimulated and to be able to add value to the world in the best way I can. I want two dogs, a partner who is fine with my need for space. I also want to live in a walkable city that has an interest in art and culture, and access to nature.

That sounds lovely.

Mostly, I want to be satisfied that I am a good person and be able to do what I want with relative freedom. Now, to be honest, I am very unsatisfied about the real world. It seems so monotonous, and I have always had the secret desire to escape into a fantasy realm. Unfortunately for myself, I don’t believe in the supernatural.

It gets better. There are a lot of cool things out there, and it all gets much less linear once you leave school. I would probably say though - knowing you and your tendencies - maybe a little less focus on being a good person (because that's a can of worms) and maybe a little more on doing things that are a net positive to the world around you.

I feel most powerful when I surprise myself. I once prepared for a grad school interview by reading hundreds of questions and preparing answers for them. When I practiced with a friend, it just came out forced and clunky, and I found myself trying to repeat exactly what I had written. I had accepted I just wasn’t going to get in. When I went to the actual interview though, I just went off script and took risks. I told personal anecdotes while maintaining the image I wanted to project to them, which got me an offer.

You are absolutely a Rapid-Fire bird, which is very cool.

When I speak up in class, when I stand up for myself, when I make impulsive decisions, and especially when I do something scary, I also feel this way.

I like it. Lean into that Lion secondary energy. I know a lot of Birds, especially Double Birds, find it extremely helpful.

I also feel powerful when I feel competent. For instance, when I fix issues at work, when I get good grades, when I manage to problem solve in a clever way.

All of this is very Bird secondary. And honestly, a very effective-sounding Bird secondary.

In high school and during the pandemic, I also was obsessed with personality systems and would read and introspect for hours trying to determine my type. But there was never an answer satisfying enough because the process of introspection was the addictive part of it, and even a sliver of doubt would send me into another rabbit hole. There is a kind of poking at it until it becomes mush effect. I literally made excel sheets with my results on different quizzes, over multiple weeks, to see if there was a pattern. By focusing so much on figuring out who I am, and the intricacies of my own psyche, I just end up losing the big picture and not being able to contextualize the information I’ve gathered. Sometimes it even becomes hard to identify anything since I’m focusing on such a tiny part of myself, and the human mind is so kaleidoscopic and changing, so it stops making sense and just becomes a big blob of behaviors and thoughts. I’ve had a hard time figuring out my MBTI and enneagram because of this as well.

I have been there before, trying to navigate the difference between what is useful introspection and what is navel-gazing indulgence. I accept that people are incredibly complicated, and any categorization system is inherently imperfect. I also accept that words to describe your inner workings are extremely helpful, and honestly, necessary. One thing I like about the system is the cleanness of it. So much of it has to do with cutting through the noise and the *presentation* we are presented, and just going - okay, how do we work, why do we work?

Thank you to Lorangutan for such an excellent submission. If you'd like a Sorting of your very own, commissions are open on my ko-fi. :D

(2/2)..but its still very actor-y/mirror-y. the only time im not putting on any layers/pretty blunt is when im super apathetic or sick. im kind of a shitty improviser in certain areas but good in others, if that means anything. kinda makes me sound rapid-fire birdy or just a built sec in general lol. i do the bird *unconsciously hoarding info* thing haha which is nice, but im also usually suprised at my good rep/how much people seem to like me. any tips on telling between these 3? thanks paint!

Last ask before I crash for the night -w-

I have a couple asks about similar stuff, how to tell these kinda similar-looking secondary tools apart... let's talk about it for a bit here. Hopefully I'm not too asleep to make sense. I was just gonna write a quick post about it, but being concise is hard >.<

Courtier vs Actor vs Rapid Fire vs Snake (bonus: vs Lion)

Courtier Badger mirroring

Showing someone the parts of yourself you think they'd find most relatable. They end up feeling liked and accepted by you because they feel you're similar to them.

All of this is genuine on your part, at least in the moment--you're kinda bad at faking it. It's difficult or impossible to mirror someone you really dislike.

Actor Bird masks

You can play a role ("professional," for instance) or turn the volume up on some of your traits (e.g. "friendly/extroverted/music lover/charismatic") to make a mask. This is a way you can act, and it doesn't have to be as genuine as a Badger's mirroring, though it probably takes less energy if it is.

Once you've gotten into character for a mask, it can take a bit to change out of it. It's kind of a mindset shift, and it's hard to fluidly change into a different behavior set without seeming to contradict yourself. Masks don't easily adjust on the fly.

Rapid Fire Bird bricolage

You have background knowledge, skills, experience, and/or resources related to a whole lot of different topics. You're creative, resourceful, and good at recombining past tools into current solutions.

You might also use Actor Bird masks as part of your toolset. Actor + RF Bird doesn't = Snake, but can seem similar at first glance.

Snake improv

You're making this up as you go along, and you're totally cool with that. You're not really afraid that things will go wrong, because you know you can recover and just pivot into something that will work better. You're willing to experiment with different tactics, watch them work or fail in real time, and adjust on the fly.

You don't mind acting differently toward different people. Your act doesn't have to be genuine, the way a Badger's would. It doesn't have to be prepared, either, and you don't get stuck in it like an Actor Bird might. You're great at using whatever resources are around you, but you didn't necessarily prepare any in anticipation of needing them. You may or may not start out with a plan, but you have no problems with dropping it if you see an opportunity come up that you want to take.

If you're dropped into a situation where you have no clue what's going on and no prior experience and no tools and you don't know anyone, you're probably still fine. A Bird in those circumstances would either panic, or withdraw and become an observer until they feel they've gathered enough information to know what to do.

Lions being Lions

All this talk about code-switching and changing how you act is uncomfortable. Why would anyone want to do this? How can you get good results like this??? Nope. Nope.

You kinda just do stuff. You're resilient, even stubborn. You don't go in for half measures. You don't give up easily. Snakes pivot all the time, but you don't--you bulldoze a straight line through your projects and problems, without necessarily thinking ahead. It usually works out, which confuses the heck out of other people sometimes, but hey, it's just how you roll!

Final note

You might model or perform any of these in addition to your actual secondary. (Info about models and performances can be found near the bottom of this page on the SHC WordPress.)

Ah. That. (I'm about to go on a tangent, so skip to the tl;dr if you want the short answer to your question.)

As I was writing my post on Straightforward vs Circumventing secondaries, I had a nagging feeling I was wording things incorrectly at that part, but I couldn't put my finger on it at the time. Now, after seeing your ask, I know exactly what my mistake was.

When I used the term Solid Bird I was trying to describe what will make Circumventing secondaries stop circumventing, what makes them dig their heels in and say No, you're wrong, no matter how much trouble it will cause them. And I stick by the list I came up with. My mistake was what I implied with my wording.

To actually answer your question, I got the word Solid from one of the other divisions between the secondaries: Solid (Bird and Lion) vs Fluid (Badger and Snake). The Basics page of the SHC wordpress describes Solid secondaries as "static and stable" and not transforming. So, you have Lions who feel wrong unless they are completely themself, who are Solid in how they represent themself, and you have Birds who feel wrong misrepresenting the tools and knowledge they have collected. They've invested time and effort into their collections, into searching for a deeper understanding of them, so they are Solid in how they present them. In contrast, Fluid secondaries will transform to match the social situation, "to fit the space they are in, ...to keep the peace, to win their goal, to stay safe they will change who they are and how they act."

Do you see my mistake yet?

Consider what I wrote comparing Circumventing secondaries in social situations. I wrote about how they'll put on a mask or act in a prepared role to fit the situation they're in, to avoid trouble or, in other words, "to keep the peace, to win their goal, to stay safe they will change... how they act."

Yup. There it is. I accidentally called Actor Birds Fluid and Neutral Snakes Solid.

Now, hold on, don't throw your rotten tomatoes at me just yet. I'm not saying that this is right. In fact, let me explain how it isn't.

If Birds are Solid because they feel wrong misrepresenting their collections, then it can be argued that this applies to Actor Birds too. The roles they have prepared for themselves are tools that cannot be altered in the moment. There is no veering off script. Meanwhile, Courtier Badgers and masked Snakes aren't going off a script but an audience. They have to listen to and observe the people around them to do their thing. Actor Birds, once they've selected a role, do not. They may even have some trouble shedding the role once the social interaction is done. The only arguably Fluid part of what Actor Birds do is that they try and predict ahead of time what their audience will want to see and put on that face, but I would argue this is Circumventing, not going Fluid. Once they get into their performance, there is no social fluidity. In other words, if we define Fluid as actively shifting and changing in reaction to their audience, and Solid as being largely unchanged by their audience in the moment, the division still makes (almost) perfect sense.

(Almost because Neutral states being Solid still makes sense to me. Lemme mull that over before commenting on it though...)

If all of that was confusing (I ramble, I know), try this: think of Actor Bird roles, Snake masks, and Courtier Badger as "multi-player" or socialization tools. Actor Bird roles are tools Built in advance, used in an effort to Circumvent trouble, but unable to change according to audience reaction (Solid). Snake masks are tools Improvised in the moment, used in an effort to Circumvent trouble, and able to change according to audience reaction (Fluid). Courtier Badger is a tool Built from the Badger themself (Badgers are the tool), used to connect directly to people (Straightforward), and able to change according to audience reaction (Fluid). And finally, Lions don't need an extra multi-player tool. They connect directly to people (Straightforward) and refuse to change according to the audience (Solid).

Hi! I’ve passively loved this system for a couple of years now but it’s only now that I’ve discovered that you actually do real people sorts! Anyway, I am pretty sure of being a Snake primary, but I’ll have you be the judge of that.

My Dad is a double Snake, however, my Mum I think is a Badger/Lion and this obviously creates a lot of conflict between them. I really care about both of them and though me & dad understand each other better on a fundamental level, he can also be quite a harsh and manipulative person (he has the typical Snake secondary thing where he tells you whatever you want to hear until you get close to him or he’s exhausted enough  to let the masks drop, and at that point he becomes quite harsh, which my Badger/Lion mum does NOT like, and she especially doesn’t like how “fake” he is), and my Mum always reacted very negatively to my behaving like him. 

A Double Snake and and Badger Lion could easily have periods of looking very similar, and very in sync, and then just… circumstances change and they couldn’t be more different. That’s a tricky one to navigate. So you’ve got a bit of cultural negativity surrounding Snake secondary, noted. 

So I kind of spent most of my life feeling torn because the two people I cared about the most had very opposing expectations of my personality

Definitely getting inklings of a Loyalist primary (Badger or Snake.) 

my Mum’s love in particular felt very conditional even though she was always very supportive of all my intellectual endeavors.

I spent the first 18-ish years of my life with “saying whatever I need to get what I want” as my primary strategy in life 

Definitely sounds quite Snake secondary (sounds a lot like your Dad’s Snake.) 

 and constructing a “cool, popular girl” personality that would give me enough social capital to get whatever I want.

Oooh, have we got some Bird secondary going on? Because this sounds like it could be Actor Bird. The very conscious way you went about building “Cool, Popular Girl” (even using words like “constructing”) and fact that this persona has a name, probably had a costume, and is purpose-built for a specific environment, not a specific person... sounds very Bird.

What I wanted, though, wasn’t anything particularly ambitious: I’m very conflict averse so I made shit up to avoid conflict. 

I associate this with Snake and Bird, the two “I move” secondaries. They’re water, flowing around obstacles. Lions and oddly Badgers are far more likely to pick fights. 

I wanted to be have strong “ride or die” friendships with people I could protect and who could protect me in turn (I first wrote “group of friends” but I now realize that I kind of struggle with groups of people - I just never have the feeling of being part of a group, just having ties with individual people, so I guess I want to be part of a group in the sense of having ties of affection and loyalty with several people who also have them with each other).

This is such heavily Snake primary-coded language, that I’m kinda wondering if that’s on purpose, and you’re looking for a specific answer from me… :) 

However, because what I got from my mum and, quite honestly, the media I liked was basically “my personality=villain.” I tended to seek out other people perceived as “villains” as some way because I felt that they would accept me more easily. 

I wish it weren’t the case, but you’re right, that’s a common thing. Especially if you’re a Double Snake or a Snake Bird, which I think are your two most likely sortings right now. 

I also really hated people who treated their friends badly or arrogantly and tended to bully them 

I mean that’s the human thing, but it’s definitely something that would bother a Loyalist (Snake or Badger primary) a LOT. 

there was this one swotty girl who was constantly looking down at her friends and treating them badly, and I just decided to make her life living hell because I was so morally affronted by it. 

I’d love to know exactly what your strategies were, because that would tell me a lot about your secondary. But there does seem to be a suggestion that there was a Mean-Girls-stye *plan* here, which kind of makes me think Bird. 

Another friend also abandoned us and found another friend group where everyone was basically in love with him and he was using them for attention seeking purposes and I also reacted to this quite harshly.

“Abandon” is a very dramatic word to describe a friend [entering a slight fuckboy phase?] and switching friend groups. 

The thing is, I also tended to abandon some people, which doesn’t clash well a Snake primary, I guess? One of my HS friend groups were really quite asshole-ish, and I ended up ditching them, but that was because I felt like they were treating other close people (of theirs, not mine) badly? 

Okay. So here’s what I think is going on. You’re a Badger. Hear me out. 

Yes, I think that your Badger looked like a Snake for a good long while. But you’re close to your Dad, and your Dad’s a Snake, and young Badgers will do that, look like authority figures or beloved people in their community. It really hurts you that your parents are not a united unit, not a community. A Snake would have an easier time just having separate relationships with each of them, even if they didn’t get along. Same thing with your friend that switched friend groups. That’s a very Badger way of looking at the situation. The Snake thing would be, well - he’s your friend, and it doesn’t really matter what group he’s him. But a Badger would want him to stay in the better group, the group that was better for him. 

You hate it when people mistreat their group. You hate bullies (Captain America style.) That’s all Badger. You also talk about multiple, conflicting groups of friends, and that whole “Cool Popular Girl” - I mean, it’s not exclusive to Badger primaries, bit it is definitely a very common way for High School Badger primaries to present. 

I had also decided to start taking school and stuff more seriously and I just kind of felt like their affection would be conditional on my bad bitch persona, got scared and ran? It was a long time ago, I don’t really remember.

This is Bird secondary thing. Getting “suck” in a persona, and worrying that people only like you / you only have value because of it. 

The turnpoint came when I met my first serious boyfriend, who is definitely a Snake secondary but I’m honestly not sure if he’s a Snake or a Bird primary.

The so far elaborately constructed web of lies and reputation building that was my life led to the downfall of our relationship, because it combined with some external circumstances made trust difficult

You have a complicated relationship with Snake secondaries, but you yourself are a Bird. “Construction,” “reputation building,” the web metaphor… it sounds like a Bird. That’s just not how Snake secondaries think. 

what I somehow got out of it was a deep fear of betrayal and abandonment 

and possibly Burned your primary a little bit (probably another reason you’re picking Snake for yourself, Burnt Badgers look like Snakes. 

and the impression that if I wanted people to love me and stay by my side, I should be very open about who I am (so that I’m sure that it’s me that they’re loyal to and not their personal image of me), and just try to be the kind of kind, morally upstanding person that people couldn’t fault for anything.

These are two mutually exclusive goals. If you’re totally honest and open about who you are (the Lion secondary thing) - then you will absolutely ruffle some feathers and rub people the wrong way. It’s a totally different approach than being the “kind [person] that people couldn’t fault for anything.” (Which is more of a badger thing.)

Forcing myself to act like this led to a plethora of mental health issues because being very open about who I am is just… not who I am? 

You also just set yourself for failure. There is literally no way you could have achieved what you set out to achieve. And how is “forcing” yourself to act a certain way more open and genuine? It sounds like you built a Badger secondary model out of fear, and just sat in it for a while.

And it was very anxiety-inducing for me. Even now, when my mental health is much better and I’ve settled into who I am, I like showing off my playfulness and wit and keeping the rest of my personality behind a neutrally charming mask.

And that’s… good? Normal? That’s also very Bird. Just have a charming, Badger-flavored ‘customer service’ face that you wear as you go through the world. Go into Neutral when you feel comfortable. (Birds go into Neutral very much like Snakes do, but the change usually isn’t as dramatic.) 

Also, my success until that point was based on a lot of improvisation and quick thinking, and while I kept that to a point, it also always led to a bunch of moral panic because in my head, being this kind of person is what gets you abandoned.

Rapid-Fire Bird. There’s a little bit of your Bird coming through here, in that you want a foundation, you don’t want to just do the Snake thing. 

Anyway, I was a psychology major (I always liked understanding how people tick and how to get them to see or do what  you want them to without having to explicitly argue with them or convince them)

Very Bird. 

but I felt alienated with the “bleeding heart helping profession!!” people around me.

I am not at all surprised that the profession skews Badger secondary, and that it did not feel at all good being around all those Badger secondaries... when you’ve got such a messy relationship with your Badger model. 

I eventually settled for doing research on children growing up in harsh circumstances who develop externalizing symptoms, but it was just because throughout my life I met a lot of people like that and a lot of my close people are “misunderstood” because they sometimes behave harshly due to their harsh upbringings, so I wanted to vindicate them in a way, as well as vindicate myself because I cared about explaining why people sometimes act less than morally and yet can still be loyal and worthy of love and not automatically “bad people”.

I love this for you. It seems like this would just fit into your primary so nicely. You’ve got a category of people, who are your people and you’re going to vindicate them, and protect them - especially from other people seeking to dehumanize them. It’s so Badger, but in that lovely universal way. 

In the meanwhile, I kind of developed a Badger primary model, I guess, in that I do dedicate a lot of my time to helping people

… or you were a Badger all along…

 and being kind and open and inviting

yeah, that has absolutely nothing to do with being a Badger primary. I’m serious. That’s just your neutrally-charming mask. 

but whenever this is put to the test my Snake loyalties always always come first. 

I honestly haven’t seen this so far. The only individuals you’ve talked about are your parents (who bothered you by not being a group, your fuckboy friend (who left the group) and your first boyfriend, who you broke up with. 

And I also still always get morally outraged when people are disloyal to their close ones or treat them badly, 

This your primary talking. (your why, what gets you out of bed in the morning)

whereas the general kindness and the work I put in towards making sure the world is a kinder, fairer place is just something that I do, no emotional attachment to it, and I don’t expect other people to do it at all.

This is your badger secondary model talking. (how you go about doing things, how you present to the world.) Both Badger, yes. EXTREMELY different. 

I honestly don’t think a lot about morality, aside from the generic “be kind and try not to fuck people over unless you really have to”

I mean, you did just say. “I also still always get morally outraged when people are disloyal to their close ones or treat them badly.” I think you just must not consider that sort of thing… really morality, in some way. But Badgers get their morality from their group. Their highest moral good is to make sure the group is doing okay. It doesn’t have to be more complicated than that. 

rationally constructing a system of morality or trying to arrive at some kind of internal hunch both feel kind of empty to me? 

Because you’re not a Bird or Lion primary? Of course it does. 

Now, as for the secondary, my knee jerk reaction is to say Bird because I’m in research, and ever since childhood I’ve always been a very logical person. I’ve eventually learned to be quite systemic in my problem solving process because I need it for research, but what I like about this career is the problem solving aspect of it, like you have a goal (for example, an effective psychosocial information or the acquisition of a certain kind of information) and you have to figure out how to get to that information. Basically the most efficient way of getting from A to B.

 I make sure to be systemic and thorough and analytical because it’s the most surefire way to get things right in my line of work, but I also take pleasure in kind of categorizing and putting information in order, and connecting it along different lines. I also really care about proper methodology and not half-assing things to get the results that you want, because I think that the results that you want are the results that are accurate and useful in the real world, not the ones that make you look better.

Wait, am I a double Snake?

Okay, now you’ve got ME worried - I must have really screwed up explaining something, because how can you write something THAT bird secondary, love systems as much as you do… and arrive at the conclusion that you’re a Snake? 

What I know for sure is that I absolutely do not identify with “knowledge for knowledge’s sake”, but I do have a really broad criteria for what “useful knowledge” is because I’m capable of thinking quite abstractly, so I can see the utility of almost anything.

That is very, very, very Bird. I’m starting to see the problem though. “Knowledge for knowledge’s sake” is an older phrase that owes more to the parent system than I would like, but it does essentially mean “no knowledge is wasted, the most useful way to solve problems is to preemptively hoard knowledge.” 

What I am really also passionate about is presenting things in the right way. I love writing, and I love public speaking, because I get to put myself in the other person’s shoes, imagine how they will “receive” what I’m saying and then tailor my presentation or short story or whatever to lead them to the conclusion that I want them to reach. But I dislike manipulating people with this: the conclusions that I want them to reach are the ones that I personally consider accurate, not the ones that benefit me.

First thing, you sound like an absolutely incredible person, and by pretty much any metric you want to use, a *good* person. (And no, that’s not because the way you’ve written this is manipulating me. This is my little game, I’m good at it.) 

What I can tell you that tailoring a presentation to an audience - that’s just a Rapid-Fire Bird who knows their stuff doing trick-shots, and I bet it’s beautiful to see. You are delivering information in a way that the audience can properly take in, because you know both your audience and your information well enough to do that, and that is incredible. 

My knee-jerk reaction is always to improvise, but I feel like this makes me come off as a “fake” person if I change my mind on what I said later (I change my mind A LOT), so I try not to say what sounds good in the moment because it will bite me in the ass later and lead to a reputation of a flaky, fake person, I guess?

Not 100% sure what you mean here. Changing your mind… is just a personality trait, it doesn’t really have to do with why you do things or how you do them. I think you would call tailoring your presentations improvisation, and I really wouldn’t. It’s not improvisation, it’s just looks like improvisation because you’ve come up with a hundred different ways to say this thing, and then on the day you can pick the one that works the best. If you had to do the same thing, but not in your preferred subject matter/environment, it would be basically impossible.

But I also really pride myself on my logical and thorough assessments of situations, and I tend to like thinking things through when I get the chance for it, often postponing decisions until I’ve thought about all the eventual longterm consequences of all the courses of action I might take. 

Bird. 

What trips me up is my trauma-induced fixation with being “honest” and avoiding “lies”, which are more about their eventual inefficacy and worthlessness and less about their moral rightness or wrongness (and also because manipulative=bad, as my Mum spent all of my life saying). My line of thinking is, “Things built on lies or self-delusion always crash down and burn, and it is right that they do so that more stable and honest things can take place”

What are you building on lies? If anyone’s work has a solid foundation, it’s yours. And as we’ve previously discussed, even IF you were doing your mom’s brash Lion secondary thing, wouldn’t that be in a lie in itself, because it’s not your natural presentation, it’s something you need to force yourself to do? 

but I also kind of use it to do shady shit - like I don’t feel morally wrong in hitting up a man in a relationship, because if he really cares about his woman the only person who’ll get burned is me and if he doesn’t I saved her the trouble of wasting more of her time on him?

This is actually a really interesting aside, because it’s you telling me how you handle a moral issue (that makes it a Primary thing.) 

Is it wrong to hit on a married man? Your answer is No: either you get turned down because he’s staying faithful, and that’s your own personal risk, or he cheats, in which case he’s kind of … dehumanizing himself? And therefore you are doing his partner a favor because she can now get rid of this unhealthy member of her community. There’s a logic there, and it’s a kind of ruthless Badger primary logic. 

So not sure if Snake or Badger secondary?

Bird. 

P.S. After some self-reflection, I realized that I’m probably not a Bird secondary

I’m listening. 

because I really hate following plans and situations where I have to rely on concrete skills and not abstract problem solving terrify me. OTOH I am very proud of my general ability to assess a situation and act appropriately.

Not sure how you’re distinguishing between “concrete skills” and “abstract problem solving.” From what you’ve been telling me, it sounds like you need the concrete skills before you can do the abstract problem solving, as in they work together. 

I’m also known as the person who changes PowerPoint slides in the middle of a conference based on whoever’s speaking before her and adapting her speech accordingly, which freaks the shit out of my coworkers, so I guess any “planning” type is probably out for old me 

That’s the most Rapid Fire Bird thing I ever heard. You made a plan. The PowerPoint and the speech exist. You’re just adapting them on the fly, based on previously-existing knowledge. I’m starting to think that you’re one of those Bird secondaries who is SUCH a loud Bird secondary, that it can be hard to get your head the idea that your skills are skills, and not sort of neutral abilities that everyone has. 

my latent distaste towards being a Snake secondary is my burny oppressive bullshit against anything that’s not “stalwart honesty and consistency” that I’ve been imposing on myself for years.

which I really wish you didn’t feel like you had to. 

Because I do love winging it and just saying whatever’s the most situationally appropriate thing regardless of how much it reflects me and I’ve just been treating any kind of play acting like a recovering alcoholic treats drink so I no longer even remember how it feels anymore lol.

Hi there. I’m fairly sure I’m a Bird Snake, but I’ve never submitted an “official” typing request, and I was wondering if you could SortMe? I structured this off the ask the other day that asked what a SortMe submission should look like.

When I was a kid I was quiet, kept to myself whilst wanting to join in groups of other kids playing. I liked solitary activities, and I could spend hours by myself doing something I liked, to the exclusion of the world around me. I read constantly, fiction and non-fiction. I was reading and writing from 3. Initially I wrote stories about concepts I thought were cool - one was a short story about a girl who sleepwalks out of her room at night and is lured into a machine by a Shadow Man that steals her shadow. I think I was about five when I wrote that lol. Then, because I wanted my parent’s approval, a performance aspect snaked in and I started quite early writing things designed to make the adults around me ooh and aah about how precocious it was. I pushed past my anxiety to perform (there was an aspect of the attention I got from adults there.) 

To preserve my own creative outlet, I secretly wrote fic for the different media I was entranced by at the time. I knew it wasn’t the kind of thing the adults would approve of. I learned to hide things quite young. 

Okay. I’m definitely seeing signs of an external focus that makes me think Badger or Bird primary (“wanting to join in groups of other kids playing” and “wanted my parent’s approval”) Like yes, those are universal human feelings, but you’re choosing to highlight them. 

I’m also definitely thinking either Bird or Snake secondary. There’s the “you” and then there’s the “you” you perform to solve a problem or get something. And you’re… fine with it. A Lion or a Badger would be chafing more. 

One of my absolute favourite pastimes was to go on to these old breed standard websites and read every profile A-Z of each breed within a domestic species, cat, dog, horse, etc, and pick out the ones I would have one day. I had a similar list-like enjoyment of dinosaurs, sharks, planets, rivers.

Well, it looks like you - as well as every other neurodivergent apparently - either has or models a Bird secondary. And I’m leaning towards you’re just a Bird secondary. The collector instinct, the love of lists… Bird secondary. 

There was something very pleasing about designing your own life. I thought if I got to Heaven, I would ask God to design my own world, so I might as well start planning before I died, lol. 

This, this right here might be the most Bird primary thing I have ever read. 

I was not athletic at all, but I had a daring streak. Not out of wanting to act out but for the pure adventure of it, I used to arrange small rebellions or capers (I tended to have a Best Friend or else usually just preferred one buddy to do things with). Once I innocuously invited myself over to my friend’s house out of nursery, smoothly eliding the facts so that her parents didn’t doubt I had my parent’s permission. They double-checked with my parents when I got there and my disgruntled parents arrived at dinner time, haha. 

You’re explaining to me all the planning that went into your first mini-heist, and also the things you overlooked that made it fail. And there definitely seems to be quite a bit of planning, or “arranging” going on. Bird.

I remember the motivation was wanting to eat a certain type of green pasta that I knew my friend’s mother made that I didn’t eat at home. 

Honestly, the way that it was so pre-meditated makes me think Bird secondary more than snake secondary. 

I loved dressing up and costume. 

Not conclusive on its own, but Actor Bird secondaries almost always have a real thing for costumes. 

I have an ear for accents, huge tracts of dialogue from movies. I could do this thing where I’d watch a movie I liked intently, then when I was bored I’d access that movie in my mind and watch that inside my head. I had to learn to stop doing things like that, because watching the mental movies meant I would kind of zone out totally for hours (cos the movie was on! everyone shut up I’m watching my movies) and other kids found it weird. Learning What Other Kids Found Weird was a rough ride. I tried hard to learn the rules, although I was constantly frustrated by how one rule would contradict another and how shallow or hypocritical they were. 

Tell me about it. I did the movie thing too, although in my case it tended to be more radio plays from the 40s. Still use it to get myself to sleep sometimes. But all that really tells me is that you’re neurodivergent, which we knew. 

Discovering Pirates of the Caribbean at ten-ish changed my absolute entire existence completely and totally. That - THAT - is what I wanted to be. I loved POTC so much I wrote pages and pages of self-indulgent fanfic, before I discovered the existence of fic on deviantart (in search of yet more of POTC beyond my well-worn DVD set).

Seriously, are you me? What WAS it about that movie. It can’t have been all the Lion primary stuff, because I really don’t think you’re a Lion primary. 

I love to cook. Say, I ordered the shopping and the chicken arrives, but it’s skin-on bone-in thighs, not the fillets I ordered. Immediately I pull up a database of skin-on bone-in thighs in my head, and I see if the ingredients I have can be made into a dish. No? OK, what’s the expiry on the ingredients I have. What can I make today that will satisfy the household, whilst using up the stuff I bought that will spoil soon? Curry? Soup? Ah, tacos! I can freeze the chicken (which goes into the mental database as something I have stocked for when I do want skin-on bone-in chicken), and use the other ingredients to make taco filling, and finally use up those tacos in the cupboard that have been sat there for an age. Ahh. A win-win, no losses. My favourite type of win.   

Bird, bird, bird, bird. Rapid-fire Bird secondary.

This may sound irrelevant, but this is why I hate stuff like maths. In maths problems, you can’t use the numbers you have to hand. You have to find new numbers. OK, where? Well, you have to use the pre-existing methods to find the numbers you need. OK, but what if I don’t know the pre-existing methods? Or, what if I know one, but it’s not complete? Can’t I use what I know from working out half the problem to put together the pieces for the rest? NOPE, and you also fail the WHOLE question, because if you don’t use pre-existing method 9.0 AB345 then you show you haven’t understood the question and you FAIL. At this point I tear up my paper into shreds and eat them like a hamster. Then I go into English and study stuff that makes sense, like the equal weight of context and content, because only a sociopath believes in rigid, unequivocal methods. 

I’m a humanities teacher, not a math teacher, so I’m going to do my best to understand and re-phrase your problem. I think you’re bothered by the fact that you’re being forced to use a specific method, instead of coming at it sideways in the way it makes sense for you (because of course you’re right, there are so many ways to solve any math problem) you have to follow a very rigid series of steps. (Half of which seems unnecessary because your brain just does that.) All that tells me is that you weren’t taught math in the right way. 

This love of English and interest in the “equal weight of context and content” does speak to kind of a love of social engineering, that absolutely seems to come out in the way you deal with people.

When I’m making a difficult decision, first I consult my ethics. What is the most correct principle that my belief system tells me fits this case? Like a lawyer choosing the exact precedent for their case, this isn’t always a straightforward decision. I have to sift through competing belief systems in order to align with the right one - perhaps in order, it would go; religion> basic moral compass> rules I have written for myself. 

You wrote a flow chart. You’re a Bird primary. 

Usually, the correct principle is one that melds with my sense of self-preservation, my morality, the objective truth (or…subjective in my case, as I’ve decided my religion is the baseline of morality, but as that is as deep as my lifeblood I don’t tamper with that.) I would also consult internal systems to make sure I am landing on a decision that takes myself into account, so I can carry out the principle without breaking my back. 

That’s good to hear, especially because your built System seems pretty Badger-flavored (focus on community and community beliefs) and as we know, leaving yourself out of your assessment of the situation is absolutely a Badger primary tendency. 

Once I’ve done this, my mind is pretty set, and execution is the stuff I have to chew through next. I sometimes have red flags for certain decisions I make depending on the topic - this can be a person, for example I trust X with nearly everything, but I know not to trust them when making a decision on Y. These notes that I’ve made are very sound and I nearly always lose if I go against them - usually when I’m in a weaker mental or emotional state and my systems are blurry and grey-er. 

Bird primaries are still very much people, and this ^ is a good example of the way they DON’T follow their own System all the time. But they still want to, and following the system makes them feel strong and safe, and that’s what makes them Bird primaries. 

This is probably why I’m bad at giving specific examples for things - or job interviews! My reasoning is so subjective to myself I feel dishonourable to use my decision-making process as a standard for a situation. My reasoning and ethics are tailored to a set of situations, and those situations in the set may not resemble each other at all. I am the constant. So….maybe don’t rely on what I did off one data point? 

It’s unethical to give an example, because that’s only one (inherently flawed) data point, and the only correct thing would be to give me ALL the data points. 

I kinda think that *only* a Double Bird could have written that? Am I wrong? 

In my favorite fantasy, I am a survivor in a commune/closed community/fiefdom situation in a post-apocalyptic/high-stakes scenario that survives on my intellect, charm and ability to adapt to my situation. Within the commune is a peaceful community well protected by the walls, and I am a soldier/town librarian that keeps the people safe whilst cultivating a beautiful space to live inside the commune and protecting the innocent who come to our door, often making tough decisions where other people fail. The horrors of the world wax and wane outside the walls - we are making our own place out of beauty and love for humanity, and we stay strong. The travels and missions and relationships I have outside of the commune keep me grounded in reality and add a spark of adventure to my life.   

The fantasy is to have a closed system that you take care of (VERY Badger-flavored Bird) and you take care of it by making the tough, correct calls - which you so by using your skills, your social engineering, and your ability to pivot. (Very Rapid-fire bird.) 

Seriously, if you don’t watch Star Trek TNG, watch TNG. You’d really vibe with Picard. 

When I saw about what character do you really identify with… Man, this is gonna sound like such an ego trip, but - Gandalf, from the Lord of the Rings. Gandalf is a merry wizard, who travels Middle Earth making friendships with people he’s not supposed to be friends with and making trouble. He can be awkward, cryptic, naive, belligerent, put his foot in it, storm off and have a temper. He can also be wise, generous, deeply human, see everybody on the same level and lead his fellow creatures out of very dark places. He isn’t forgiven easily for his mistakes - the stakes are high, and when he slips up (like in the mines, like when he trusts Saruman, when he is unable to prevent Faramir from riding to battle…) there are consequences that hurt him. He also isn’t afraid to lie or garnish the truth to get what he needs - but his desires are rarely purely for his own benefit.

Okay. Gandalf is *very* powerful, and he’s very capable, and knowledgable. He’s a Bird secondary fantasy. Communities value and love him, but he’s not part of a community himself (this was also the case with the apocalyptic fiefdom scenario.) So the fantasy is not the community, the fantasy is protecting the community. Which would make me double down on Badger-flavored-Bird rather than actual Badger. If the Bird primary hadn’t already been like, really really obvious. 

What makes me feel powerful? Being able to, out of pure cunning, publicly present the unarguable facts with the sheer power of moral force, and win - that’s the stuff. And I don’t just mean public speaking, or sitting at the table and making the final, right decision. I mean wearing a pretty dress and knowing you are having exactly the effect you desired to have. It’s being seen, and then being celebrated, whilst you are in control.

Hi! I love your Tumblr and your posts about shc but for some reason, I still can't figure out what my sorting is (probably because of how much I'm overthinking it...) so hearing what you have to say would mean a lot and really help me out.

First, I'll start with primaries. For Badger Primary I do somewhat care for others but I feel like it always has something to do with the rules I made for myself from my experiences. For example, I had some kind of rule in my head which was like "You have to befriend new kids at school because you always used to think that people should come up to others who are alone because you didn't have any friends before."

"Make rules in my head, and then act accordingly" usually means Bird...

I also used to think I was a Snake Primary because of how much I think I'd be loyal to my people but now I think I might be one of the Idealist houses because I've found it pretty easy for me to let go of the friends I had in school because of how I was treated by them but also because of not agreeing with them on particular things that are part of my morality and ideals.

Yeah, I'm thinking Idealist too.

I think I could be a Lion Primary because of how stubborn I can be

Stubbornness can honestly come from a lot of places, both primary and secondary. More data is needed.

with the ideals I have especially with the rules I made for myself when I was younger. However, I'm also leaning towards Bird Primary because of the rules I made for myself to go on with life and also because of how much I research things then doubt it then check again then feel bad about going on with life without making sure if it was right or not. I do become guilty when I'm not 100% sure if something I'm doing is wrong or right morally if I read it was not okay somewhere.

Okay, your system building is sounding a little frantic here. Research → Double Check → (feel bad if you don't) Triple Check → try to get unanimous consensus. We're either looking at a slightly exploded Chidi-style Bird primary, or something else. Possibly a Bird primary model.

But actually, I feel like in the end if I don't go with how I feel about something I'd be pretty upset

Like, you think you hypothetically would be pretty upset, or you ARE pretty upset if you don't go with gut feeling?

(except for now cause I keep doubting how I feel about things but I also don't know if how I feel is reliable enough if that makes sense.)

It's actually very possibly you're a kinda Burnt Lion primary. Burnt Lions often look like really stressed out Birds.

As a kid, doing things I didn't feel I wanted to do enraged me so much more than bothering somebody. For instance, once someone got me to wake my mom up for something which wasn't a big deal. But I felt like I shouldn't so I didn't want to do it and when I did I felt worse that I was right and I still let them make me do it - rather than being upset about getting my mom mad from waking her up from her sleep.

I think you're e a Lion primary. This example - of being pissed at listening to other people instead of yourself when you knew you were right, and then being angry at yourself afterwards, instead of at the people who gave you the bad data, or sad about hurting someone you loved... that feels VERY relatable, and VERY Lion.

Ok, I think that's all I have for Primaries so now I'll start with the secondaries. I honestly think I might be a burnt secondary because I just can't figure out for the life of me which one of these I value and comes naturally.

Like I think I might not be a Badger secondary because I think I care about the end result more than the work. If I worked hard on something and didn't achieve the result I'd feel pretty bummed out but I also do see why it's necessary to work hard so you can achieve your goals I'd just rather not work too hard because I'm worried if I do then I fail that'll mean I wasted my life for nothing.

You have a perfectionist streak. It's showing up in the way you write about your primaries too, and I don't have to tell you that perfection is not an attainable goal. You've got a "If I do not try then I cannot fail" thing going on, and *yeah* that's evidence of a Burnt secondary. The Badger secondary wisdom is that it's not a binary - some work is better than no work at all, and it all adds up.

(I do agree that you're probably not a Badger secondary though.)

Now for Bird secondary, I think I might have it as a secondary because I tend to plan every scenario in my head that could happen when I'm anxious/scared of doing something or when I know I have to think it through etc.

This could be Bird secondary. It could also be a Bird secondary model used as a coping mechanism (very common) or just like... catastrophizing.

I'm also not sure if this is a Bird secondary thing or something else but I remember a time when I did tell myself to make sure of one thing I should do when I was about to confront someone about not sending her part in the group project which was that I just had to make sure I don't sound rude just in case I'd have to complain to my teacher about it and show her the messages that were sent

That slightly calculated move... probably isn't Lion, but could be any of the others

but I improvised the rest when I realized she'd lied to me about working on it and I got mad (so I don't know if that's improvisation or prep work secondary).

You could be an improvisational, in-the-moment secondary. Getting mad that someone lied to you is just a human thing though.

For Snake secondary, I hate being vulnerable in front of others including my loved ones. I tend to get scared of letting people know every side of me, especially a side of me that would make me feel less safe.

Huh. There's a part of you that feels unsafe? That's not Snake specifically. I'm not sure what that is. I'll put a pin in that, hopefully it makes more sense later.

I also do like the idea of finding creative solutions to things for example when I was a kid I used to find it dumb when like someone tells someone the truth about something when it's obviously going to get them or others hurt. I also did create a mask when I was younger that I still kind of use when I go to school which is the nice and shy student because it has helped me out a lot and I honestly haven't been able to get out of it because of how long I've been in the school I'm in

Hmm. This sounds like either a Snake secondary, or a fluid Actor Bird. And I'm... sort of leaning more Actor Bird. Nice!Shy!You is your constructed mask, your tool for specific situations (not something you tend to fall into around a specific person.)

but I'm also thinking about moving out because my school has lowered my confidence in using my social skills because of how I present myself there so I think it'd be better to go someplace else as a more confident person or something like that, I don't really know.

That kind of conscious social calibration is very much a Bird secondary thing. The idea that you think 'go someplace else, construct a more confident persona' would even work says Bird to me.

Also when I was younger some teacher did end up telling people that I was a "bad kid" at home because my mom probably told her how much louder I am at home which made me terrified so that might also be a snake thing I'm not really sure. I just have a problem with letting people know more about me cause I feel they could use it to their advantage at any moment.

It sure seems like you've got a lot of anxiety. Not to armchair diagnose. Just... I hope you have someone you can talk too. No one's out to get you. The scary (but also wonderful) truth is that no one cares what you're doing that much. It's hard being vulnerable, but it's worth it.

Enough about that, now for Lion secondary I think I might be one because I have sometimes wished that I'd do what I felt was right rather than what was best for the external situation

I think you're a Lion *primary.*

but I also do tend to get upset at others when they do that because then it creates disagreements and arguments that I don't want to be involved in. I don't know if I'm okay with being "misrepresented" or not because I still don't really know who I am but I definitely wouldn't like people to say that I'm something that's against my principles. However, I do have trouble with deciding if I should sacrifice my outward integrity or not (which I read was a Lion primary thing) because I do value sticking to your outward integrity and not caring what other people will think about it. Thank you so much for reading this and sorry if nothing I wrote helped because I feel like I rambled about everything that's been stuck in my head here.

There's a lot of fear in this ask. A lot of it is directed inward - you must do all the research (you can never do all the research.) You must be perfect (you can never be perfect.) You can't be vulnerable (if you are you'll frighten people.) It seems like a stressful way to live, and no wonder you don't trust your Lion primary. You don't trust yourself.

Can you help me with my sorting please. Recently I’ve been having a lot of doubts about it and it’s causing me major grief. The only thing I’m sure of is my primary is burnt. I’m probably a Bird secondary (I actually looked at other submissions you’ve gotten just to see how I should format this lol and I finally logged back into my tumblr), but even that I’m not sure of that what with the looming specter of the Badger secondary and Lion secondary.

Well that’s a rather unpleasant way to talk about the Badger & Lion secondaries. Unhealthy model? 

So, my primary. I’ve always been kinda moving through life, it’s hard to explain because when you do things you don’t think about them. You don’t think “Yes I am doing this for this specific reason and I’m going to catalogue this in the back of my mind when I need to draw the receipts out in fifteen years." 

I do try to do the right thing I think, but I have been self-serving before. I don’t really care about people a lot? I care about them in a nebulous, I don’t want you dead sort of way, but I also have the thought that if you died I wouldn’t care because I don’t know you. I used to be a lot more family orientated, I used to think I would be willing to do anything for my family, and I think I would still do a lot of things for them, but I’m not as focused on my family anymore. 

All right. Could be a couple things going on here. I’m ruling out a Bird switching systems, because I don’t think a Bird primary would ever say “when you do things you don’t think about them.” You could be a Burnt Snake, who thinks they should be a Badger. Or maybe a Lion *surrounded* by a lot of Loyalists, who used to model Snake or (more probably) Badger, and doesn’t anymore. 

For examples of things I’ve done, I used to be BETA club (it’s a leadership program if you don’t know) and I was in it for one year before I neglected to not renew my status in the club because I thought doing community service would be boring (which I felt guilty about). 

So you joined (or were told to join) this (quite stereotypically) Badger primary club. And didn’t keep up with it... which you feel guilty about. My guess is that whatever else is going on, you’ve got a very strong Badger primary influence in your life. (And probably an unhealthy Badger primary model)

I’ve got a lot of ideas and I want to be a screenwriter, but I’m not sure if that’s a viable career.

Eh, I know plenty of screenwriters. Let’s see your NCIS spec script. :)

The characters I tend to like and relate to are lion primaries or snake primaries. I also often want to be told straight up if I am or am not something and hate when people give me non answers. My screenshots are filled with the results of personality tests. 

I think you’re a Burned Lion. You want someone else to tell you who you are, and that’s... pretty much the core experience of being a Burned Lion.  

I'm starting to think that each secondary has a social and non-social manifestation.

Courtier Badger (social) vs Bookkeeper Badger (non-social) is a very clean divide, but also, I'm a Badger so of course I'm going to have the greatest amount of insight there.

But there are also very social birds ('I know a guy' and 'actor' variants) as well as the non-social ""classic"" birds - your inventors, scientists, artists, collectors, and academics.

Here is some testimony from a snake secondary who had trouble labeling themselves a snake because some of the more social descriptions (charming, seductive, "masks") didn't really apply to them. But what *did* resonate with them was the idea of MacGyver-ing their environment on the fly, finding shortcuts, workarounds, not liking to do things in the "right" way.

I see Lion secondaries as pretty external - it's why they make such great characters, you drop them in and they bounce of other things and other people until *stuff happens.* But I could see a more introverted Lion secondary as being very focused, and very driven. Like one of those detectives that can't quite drop the cold case.

Just a few thoughts I'm having. Stay tuned for more