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I've read a few recently published books, and there's this recurring pattern where if anyone does anything bad and interesting, they have to later talk about it in a way that makes it clear that it was a misunderstanding/ justified/ not their fault, so they're still a good person. and if they have a disagreement with another character, they have to therapy talk it out, regardless of their background. it doesn't matter if this is a street urchin with three teeth who just stabbed and kidnapped someone, you will get eloquent sterile therapy speak that will smooth out any possible emotional tension. and everyone asks for permission before they kiss, and waits for a clear enthusiastic yes. again, doesn't matter the character's background or situation, they will ask "can I please kiss you," because if they didn't, that could get all yucky and uncertain, couldn't it? and if a character is from a rich family, they will hate being in a rich family, and hate wealth signifiers, and actually be all for class equality. and everyone is casually queer, without thought being put into how that would mesh with the society that is being described. like yes, this is violent class-based system obsessed with inheritance, but no, it's not actually a problem that the child they've coldly groomed to take on the family mantle is unwilling to beget an heir because of gay. the parents might be terrible, cruel and fascistic, but they're not homophobic! I don't know, it just seems like EVERYTHING that could actually be messy gets sanded and sanded until it's smooth as a shark, but the Fun Violence is allowed to stay, because bloodshed doesn't actually bother anyone or have any consequence apart from your rogue character shrugging and going oops, was that me? the rogue is still a good person though. if you think they're not, just wait for the two solid pages of introspection. and yes they started the book by slitting two throats, but that was fine. they will ask permission before hugging you.
so, of course this is all based on my interpretation of characters, but i sometimes i find myself thinking of elizabeth and i just don't see her as interested in a romantic relationship, which is why i have pretty much no interest in her dynamic with will. it's not that i dislike willabeth, i simply think they're unteresting -or rather, uninteresting from elizabeth's pov, because, on the other hand, i think it works well for will.
but elizabeth? i see her as pretty detached and quite neutral to romantic engagement, which is why i enjoy her dynamic with jack, which i consider largely based in sexual tension and some form of fascination that, i think, has little to do with romance, but also find norribeth interesting. elizabeth cares for james, but i don't think she can love him the way he does her. she cares for him and would probably live a fairly good life by his side. i think she would even be content in that life. this sort of convenience marriage aspect can be quite fun to play with, in my head. i think elizabeth's romantic interest is somewhat muted and generally speaking not something she actively seeks. she's very focused on herself and i don't see her as a character who pays particular attention to the emotions of others. she reads them well, but it doesn't seem like those emotions influence her.
and this is what i like about elizabeth. i truly enjoy her in this muted way, where she's more rational than emotional. i wanna include her more in my writing tbh but i gotta get over this idea i have that people will be annoyed by my views on her lol
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Yo, I saw your post about orientalism in relation to the "hollywood middle-east" tiktok!
How can a rando and university dropout get into and learn more about? Any literature or other content to recommend?
Hi!! Wow, you have no idea how you just pressed a button. I'll unleash 5+ years on you. And I'll even add for you open-sourced works that you can access as much as I can!
1. Videos
I often find this is the best medium nowadays to learn anything! I'll share with you some of the best that deal with the topic in different frames
• This is a video of Edward Said talking about his book, Orientalism. Said is the Palestinian- American critic who first introduced the term Orientalism, and is the father of postcolonial studies as a critical literary theory. In this book, you’ll find an in-depth analysis of the concept and a deconstruction of western stereotypes. It’s very simple and he explains everything in a very easy manner.
• How Islam Saved Western Civilization. A more than brilliant lecture by Professor Roy Casagranda. This, in my opinion, is one of the best lectures that gives credit to this great civilization, and takes you on a journey to understand where did it all start from.
• What’s better than a well-researched, general overview Crash Course about Islam by John Green? This is not necessarily on orientalism but for people to know more about the fundamental basis of Islam and its pillars. I love the whole playlist that they have done about the religion, so definitely refer to it if you're looking to understand more about the historical background! Also, I can’t possibly mention this Crash Course series without mentioning ... ↓
• The Medieval Islamicate World. Arguably my favourite CC video of all times. Hank Green gives you a great thorough depiction of the Islamic civilization when it rose. He also discusses the scientific and literary advancements that happened in that age, which most people have no clue about! And honestly, just his excitement while explaining the astrolabe. These two truly enlightened so many people with the videos they've made. Thanks, @sizzlingsandwichperfection-blog
2. Documentaries
• This is an AMAZING documentary called Reel Bad Arabs: How Hollywood Villifies A People by the genius American media critic Jack Shaheen. He literally analysed more than 1000 movies and handpicked some to showcase the terribly false stereotypes in western depiction of Arab/Muslim cultures. It's the best way to go into the subject, because you'll find him analysing works you're familiar with like Aladdin and all sorts.
• Spain’s Islamic Legacy. I cannot let this opportunity go to waste since one of my main scopes is studying feminist Andalusian history. There are literal gems to be known about this period of time, when religious coexistence is documented to have actually existed. This documentary offers a needed break from eurocentric perspectives, a great bird-view of the Islamic civilization in Europe and its remaining legacy (that western history tries so hard to erase).
• When the Moors Ruled in Europe. This is one of the richest documentaries that covers most of the veiled history of Al-Andalus (Muslim Spain). Bettany Hughes discusses some of the prominent rulers, the brilliance of architecture in the Arab Muslim world, their originality and contributions to poetry and music, their innovative inventions and scientific development, and lastly, La Reconquista; the eventual fall and erasure of this grand civilization by western rulers.
3. Books
• Rethinking Orientalism by Reina Lewis. Lewis brilliantly breaks the prevailing stereotype of the “Harem”, yk, this stupid thought westerns projected about arab women being shut inside one room, not allowed to go anywhere from it, enslaved and without liberty, just left there for the sexual desires of the male figures, subjugated and silenced. It's a great read because it also takes the account of five different women living in the middle east.
• Nocturnal Poetics by Ferial Ghazoul. A great comparative text to understand the influence and outreach of The Thousand and One Nights. She applies a modern critical methodology to explore this classic literary masterpiece.
• The Question of Palestine by Edward Said. Since it's absolutely relevant, this is a great book if you're looking to understand more about the Palestinian situation and a great way to actually see the perspective of Palestinians themselves, not what we think they think.
• Arab-American Women's Writing and Performance by S.S. Sabry. One of my favourite feminist dealings with the idea of the orient and how western depictions demeaned arab women by objectifying them and degrading them to objects of sexual desire, like Scheherazade's characterization: how she was made into a sensual seducer, but not the literate, brilliantly smart woman of wisdom she was in the eastern retellings. The book also discusses the idea of identity and people who live on the hyphen (between two cultures), which is a very crucial aspect to understand arabs who are born/living in western countries.
• The Story of the Moors in Spain by Stanley Lane-Poole. This is a great book if you're trying to understand the influence of Islamic culture on Europe. It debunks this idea that Muslims are senseless, barbaric people who needed "civilizing" and instead showcases their brilliant civilization that was much advanced than any of Europe in the time Europe was labelled by the Dark Ages. (btw, did you know that arabic was the language of knowledge at that time? Because anyone who was looking to study advanced sciences, maths, philosophy, astronomy etc, had to know arabic because arabic-speaking countries were the center of knowledge and scientific advancements. Insane, right!)
• Convivencia and Medieval Spain. This is a collection of essays that delve further into the idea of “Convivencia”, which is what we call for religious coexistence. There's one essay in particular that's great called Were Women Part of Convivencia? which debunks all false western stereotypical images of women being less in Islamic belief. It also highlights how arab women have always been extremely cultured and literate. (They practiced medicine, studied their desired subjects, were writers of poetry and prose when women in Europe couldn't even keep their surnames when they married.)
4. Novels / Epistolaries
• Granada by Radwa Ashour. This is one of my favourite novels of all time, because Ashour brilliantly showcases Andalusian history and documents the injustices and massacres that happened to Muslims then. It covers the cultural erasure of Granada, and is also a story of human connection and beautiful family dynamics that utterly touches your soul.
• Dreams of Trespass by Fatma Mernissi. This is wonderful short read written in autobiographical form. It deconstructs the idea of the Harem in a postcolonial feminist lens of the French colonization of Morocco.
• Scheherazade Goes West by Fatma Mernissi. Mernissi brilliantly showcases the sexualisation of female figures by western depictions. It's very telling, really, and a very important reference to understand how the west often depicts middle-eastern women by boxing them into either the erotic, sensual beings or the oppressed, black-veiled beings. It helps you understand the actual real image of arab women out there (who are not just muslims btw; christian, jew, atheist, etc women do exist, and they do count).
• Letters of Lady Mary Wortley Montagu. This is a feminist travel epistolary of a British woman which covers the misconceptions that western people, specifically male travelers, had recorded and transmitted about the religion, traditions and treatment of women in Constantinople, Turkey. It is also a very insightful sapphic text that explores her own engagement with women there, which debunks the idea that there are no queer people in the middle east.
---------------------
With all of these, you'll get an insight about the real arab / islamic world. Not the one of fanaticism and barbarity that is often mediated, but the actual one that is based on the fundamental essences of peace, love, and acceptance.
"#and don’t get me started about vague ‘islamicate’ aesthetics in diversity-fanart…#that is outright just SLB-bollywood core#aka biggest cultural export and one of the clearest methods of ‘erasing muslims while using sexy mughalcore aesthetics’"
hello sorry this is not directly relevant to your tags but i was wondering if you had any thoughts on like. (correct me if i am wrong) the indianisation of middle-eastern media (e.g. the 2019 live action aladdin and the casting of charithra chandran in one piece live action as the princess of a middle east/north africa inspired country) or if you had any leads on commentary about it!
OH BOY OH BOY THANK YOU FOR THE QUESTION, and apologies in advance that I have, as per, taken the opportunity to yap, and run… the comparison did have me Thinking A Lot on my train ride today so thank you for that as well, considering my commutes are normally very dreary…
Also before I actually start, a quick note re: my tags referring to fandom, I do want to note that it’s not that I’m calling these elements “problematic” or whatever, hell I often enjoy the spectacle, and have used these aesthetics myself. I also think Islamicate aesthetics do have progressive potential when done with a degree of self-awareness and used as a tool rather than a medium, especially in period-fantasy eg Tolkien (and not to blow smoke up my own ass but thinking about how Maglor and his musicality is introduced in Prayers via old-timey romantic ghazals and qawwalis before he starts singing about “waspfuckers”), or even in cinema itself as with the old Kamal Amrohi film Pakeezah, one of the best “queer death/anti-futurity” narratives that Indian cinema has come out with.
It’s more that I see these aesthetics replicated so often as progressive in and of itself, “representative” of a culture, specifically, the South Asian subcontinent and India in particular, where said representation just directly echoes the dominant cultural narrative whilst framing itself as transgressive or antiracist… without such a framing, the aesthetics aren’t “regressive” in themselves. I see it kind of like, idk, making Tinkerbell wear a Wonder Woman leotard, where the leotard isn’t a problem and can be cool, but the intention of it is deeply uncool. Or to use a MENA example, a 2025 Iranian state production of LotR starring Ayatollah Elrond dealing out fatwas to Sauron Rushdie. But with both examples being called “progressive antiracist portrayals” that will decolonise fandom/cinema/literature/whatever. Each region or regime has its own nationalistic propaganda, but Bollywood and Hollywood have a much larger stake in global film culture so to speak, hence me focusing on them. Basically, less “this is bad and people shouldn’t do it” and more “this is what’s actually happening here”.
I also have reading recommendations/reference list at the end because I don’t want to look like I’m talking out of my ass lol.
So my (academic) background when it comes to film studies is more in the Indian popular cinema area since the cultural exports I worked on were from the subcontinent, in that I did a comparative study and Malayalam regional cinema read against Bombay-produced ‘cultural export’ films… And coming from that position, I’d say the ‘Indiafication’ of MENA aka Middle Eastern & North African identities in Anglophone cinema, primarily Hollywood, and the ‘Islamicate’ tropes of Bollywood cinema, are two manifestations of a very similar visual-political logic, but also that the former is proof of the latter’s relative “success”.
By “visual-political logic”, I mean both speak to a similar selective appropriation & decontextualisation of Muslim cultures to serve dominant narratives, ethno/nationalism in the case of Indian popular cinema + cultural imperialism in the case of Hollywood/US cinema. However, the historical trajectories of said flattenings are very different, as Indian cinema actually used to portray Muslim subjects as far more complex and multifaceted (see: Garm Hava, Pakeezah or early Shyam Benegal films, or even current Malayalam middle cinema), but now either view them as romanticised, nostalgic ‘Islamicate’ relics (see: Umrao Jaan, Bajirao Mastani, Kalank) or walking, talking terror threat (see: Kerala Story, Uri: Surgical Strike) or both (see: Padmaavat). And with Hollywood, “Indian-humour” of the “haha they have stinky-lunchboxes” variety was widespread until, speaking loosely here, the late 2010s, when politics-of-representation entered the field.
So the "Islamicate" in Bollywood refers to cultural artefacts shaped by Islamic civilisation but divorced entirely from Indian Muslims: stuff like ornate calligraphy, Mughal courtly architecture, Urdu-inflected dialogue, sufistic motifs. These forms remain central to Bollywood’s visual economy, especially when drawing up a romanticised precolonial North India, yet detaches it from living Muslim presence in the country, which is seen as undesirable to the point that citizenship itself is withheld. And “real Muslims” are then demonised in the exact same film industry, while the aesthetics of precolonial Mughlai Islam is commodified… especially insidious when the “Indian Muslims are descendants of barbaric Mughal invaders” has not only been used to whitewash extreme acts of violence and brutality to said population, but is quite literally the official line taken by the nation-state. Essentially:
The ✨ Islamicate ✨ in Popular Cinema:
👿 Muslims 👿 in Popular Cinema:
The reason I mention this specific bifurcation or go into Islamicate cinema at all even though your question doesn’t relate to that, is because imo Bollywood’s selective aestheticisation and erasure of Muslim identity is mirrored in global cinema and one of the ways its done is through said Indiafication of Middle Eastern cultures and individuals. So in Anglophone films, especially post 9/11, actors of South Asian descent are often cast as generic Middle Eastern, Arab or “vaguely Muslim” characters without cultural specificity… like the Aladdin example you mention, where any racial/religious complexity is collapsed into this fungible “brownness”. On the surface level, it’s that South Asian, often Indian, bodies are used to stand-in for the Muslim ‘other’ in order to avoid using Arab/West Asian actors, who are considered more politically volatile. But further in, this kind of superficially diverse casting is also used to mask the persistent Orientalist tropes in US/UK cinema: an Arab Muslim is either a violent terrorist, an abject victim, a fully-assimilated patriot, or a liberal poster-child who disavows all aspects of his ethnic, religious or national identity aside from said vague “brownness”.
South Asian actors, especially Indian ones, are seen as more pliable: familiar to Western audiences through the global reach of Bollywood, and yet “brown” enough to evoke Muslim alterity without ever actually naming it. So Jack Shaheen talks about this very in depth in Reel Bad Arabs, but this kind of flattening isn’t just out of convenience or “they think we’re all the same”, it serves the ideological function of separating the viewer from “real Muslim lives” so that, say, imperial wars instigated by the States, or Britain’s surveillance regime (Prevent), can continue without a mass “hey aren’t those actual people?” awakening. And the use of Indian actors and “Bollywood” aesthetics in films or other visual productions that ostensibly depict the Middle East just reinscribes that racial hierarchy: India and Indians posited as a more acceptable, liberal, secular postcolony, while the Arab world can remain as the locus of danger, tribalism, and extremism. And the language of representation, ie, the well meaning and often diasporically originating “finally we Indians, nay, not just we but a super scrubbed down and regionally isolated performance of our culture, get to participate in a Hollywood that used to be super racist about us”, is used to couch that process, in order to tamp down protest against what is just straight up Orientalism II: Cinematic Boogaloo…
Also was chatting about this with @antlered-vixen and he mentioned the role of colourism and the catered-to audiences’ need for ontological signifiers for The Evil Muslim Other, and I think that’s definitely worth mentioning here, so a swift addition on the matter with these indented paragraphs:
Colourism absolutely impacts casting practices in both Bollywood and Hollywood, shapes which bodies are deemed visually “authentic”, and this is definitely a thing when it comes to villainous Scary Muslim Terrorist roles, or in period fantasy pieces, Jaffar-type Roles (and I think this is actually an area where both the PJackson films and RoP have shat the bed in). Darker-skinned South Asian actors are disproportionately hired to portray violent or extremist Muslim men because their appearance conforms to visual tropes that associate darkness with deviance and hypermasculinity, again thinking about that colonial visual economy, paper-bag ism etc. And global cinema, particularly post-9/11, these actors are frequently cast as undifferentiated “Middle Eastern” threats, signifying a generic, menacing brownness, eg Body of Lies or Homeland… and this logic comes from epidermalisation (Fanon term, iirc) ie. reduction of identity to skin where darkness = ontological threat.
+ crucially, this visual coding is gendered: darker Muslim men are not only racialised but also hypermasculinised, portrayed as aggressive, libidinal, and incapable of tenderness (again thinking about Prayers Maedhros who is deliberately said to have “white” facial features ie eye colour/hair colour combined with tanned skin, hypermasculine Muslim aesthetics and other external signifiers lol…).
But yes, this sort of thing ties easily into broader regimes of postcolonial masculinity, where the Muslim man becomes a symbolic antithesis to the secular, palatable, liberal subject. In Bollywood, you can see this (above) in Alauddin Khilji in Padmaavat, whose deliberately darkened skin, “animalistic” sexuality, and violent excess mark him as both racially and morally “other” to the fair-skinned, dharmic Rajput hero. In both contexts, darker-skinned South Asian men are thus instrumentalised rather than “included”: their bodies used to enact a performance of dangerous Muslim masculinity that stabilises nationalist or imperialist narratives, whether it be Hindutva-inflected “secularism” in India or liberal multiculturalism in the West…
Overall, I guess my take on the matter is that these visual/casting economies aren’t just accidental or representational or unrelated, but ideological tools which uphold geopolitical power structures on a global basis. As such, US cinema’s Indiafication of the Middle East + Bollywood’s Islamicate aesthetic both serve Orientalism, aka romanticising + pathologising whatever iteration of The East is deemed to be the current threat. In the postcolonial and neoliberal movement this is mediated not just through journalistic or political propaganda but also circuits of soft power… hence Bollywood, as India’s most powerful cultural export, participates in a “theatrical articulation/performance of the nation”, where the country’s ostensible pluralism and diversity is marketed abroad even as religious minorities and the caste-oppressed face everything from precarity to state violence on the domestic front. And similar to that, Anglophone cinema’s substitution of Indian for Arab actors aligns with global capital's desire for de-risked diversity: South Asian actors are often seen as less politically fraught, less culturally resistant, and more easily integrated into Western liberal narratives.
And in both instances, Muslim cultures are not represented but “managed”, aka converted into aesthetic forms that reinforce the mythologies of secular India and liberal Empire, while occluding the lived realities of exclusion, surveillance, and violence faced by people in the MENA region across national contexts, which includes both international occupation/threats but also regional ethno/religio-nationalist regimes, eg, Saudi Wahabbism, Ayatollah as heads of state in Iran, etc…
Hope that’s a decent chewing through? And just to swiftly swerve back to fandom but also with cinema in general, it’s less that I want to see ‘less’ of that specific aesthetic, and more that there are dozens and dozens of other ways to define ‘Indian-ness’ beyond Bollywood, or the kind of costuming and set-pieces used in these big-budget Bollywood films. Eg. looking beyond the UP-Delhi-Bombay belt gets you quite a lot of costuming room, and frankly I think creating an AU in which Maedhros and Maglor walk around in mundus should be referred to as my sexiest and most valuable contribution to the Silmarillion fandom…
Thank you so much again for the question, this was fun to think about, and I hope I didn't sound too dry because I feel like I can sometimes... and sorry for going on all these random tangents!
And a reference/readings list, as promised... a couple of sources are academic-access, iirc the Alsultany one, but I've picked out WorldCat library links for the others!
Sunaina Maira - Youth, Citizenship & Empire After 9/11
Jack Shaheen - Reel Bad Arabs: How Hollywood Vilifies a People
Evelyn Alsultany - Arabs and Muslims in the Media: Race and Representation after 9/11
Tejaswini Ganti - Producing Bollywood: Inside the Contemporary Hindi Film Industry
Mushirul Hasan - Legacy of a Divided Nation + Moderate or Militant
Marshall Hodgson - on the generally valuable debate around the term 'Islamicate' when used in wider-cultural terms, however, pretty uncontroversial when discussing Bollywood/cinema...
Christophe Jaffrelot - Modi's India - rise of an ethnic democracy
That was me who sent the last ask (I get a little shy when it comes to asking for requests 😅). I was wondering if you could draw Angelica? I want to see her in your art style!
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it appears everyone agrees it was terrible. hence: i am writing a fic to fix it. (french is not my first language, be gentle) (will be posting an English version too)
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