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@shipinpeace
Back from hiatus
Dearest followers and guests!
I have been away for quite a long time, but I would like to slowly go back to posting content and starting discussions.
Thank you for sticking with me all this time.
Love,
Idris

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Since you're a woman, you don't get a say in what gay men can and cannot be uncomfortable with.
Thank you for your ask. I see myself as nonbinary more than a woman. But thatâs beside the point.
Do individual gay men get a say in what other gay men can and cannot be uncomfortable with?
However, I believe thatâs not even relevant in this case. It is up to individual people to feel the way they do. Their feelings are none of my business. What concerns me if the way some people express their discomfort. Being gay does grant you the right to decide what is acceptable and not in gay fiction just like being bisexual does not grant me the right to police bisexual fiction.Â
Youâve had so many great posts on this exact topic, so many insights and examples, yet you continue to push the same idea, ignoring everything people have said about it. This is turning into a vicious circle, really.
But let me add a new insight, then. A different angle. Is a straight woman allowed to write het porn? Sure, this is something that is part of her identity and her experience, but she is not a man. Can she really accurately portray the manâs point of you in her story? Isnât she, by your logic, fetishizing the man? I mean, sheâs writing a porno, after all.
Since youâre a woman, you donât get a say in what gay men can and cannot be uncomfortable with.
I absolutely agree with nonnie. No one has the right, or the power, to control other peopleâs feelings.
A right that we do have, however, is to say:Â âWith all due respect, but your feelings donât get to dictate my actions.â
A friend of mine once summarized the crux of this discourse as the difference between gay men having kinks and gay men being kinks.
Plenty of cishet (and bi and lesbian) women write excellent mlm fic. The kinks vary, but what is always a common factor in their work, is that they see the characters are people first. Even when itâs PWP, the fetish belongs to the characters; they donât belong to it.
Plenty of women, and afab non-binary folks, donât know how to do this. Theyâre intrigued by the concept of 2 men having sex for a variety of reasons, but they donât have the skills at writing/character building to get it across in a non-fetishy way.Â
In those instances, I still wonât have an issue if they treat actual mlm like they themselves would want to be treated in a fandom setting. Because youâre absolutely right. No one can force you to listen to their experience or their POV. No personâs feelings can make you change how you conduct yourself. However, taking the time to listen to ppl who live in the community youâre touristing in when they tell you how something impacts them and shapes their circumstances, is kind of the definition of empathy and just being a decent person.
Yes gay men feel differently about certain issues, but if 10 people tell you that something is hurtful and explain why, listening to the 1 who tells you that youâre fine is not a reflection of you taking âthe gay opinionâ on board. There are gay guys who express their grievances better than others, of course, but if youâre an adult and some 15 year old comes into your inbox guns a-blazing, maybe take a step back and try to scratch the surface of why this kid is upset. It might be a case entitled brat ragging on you for having the wrong otp, but what if you really did step into an area that is just plain insensitive?
As an artist/writer, shouldnât the goal be to improve and learn and do better?
Thereâs a lot of quotes floating around tumblr about art not being about pleasing ppl, but if you take those statements in context, then itâs always referring to works that challenge the status quo and empower the marginalized.
TL;DR If your knee-jerk response to a gay kidâs post on fandom fetishism is to suppress and belittle, then Iâm sorry to say, but the simple fact that you have more ppl agreeing with you, doesnât mean you have the moral high-ground. It just means you have the power to keep those pesky gay guys in their place.
I agree with you and I always promote discussion and education, stressing the importance of highlighting problematic topics and thinking outside your comfort zone.Â
The problem starts with policing. When people start writing stuff like this:
âand when men who love men like myself bring up the fact that maybe you guys should stay in your lane a little and let us take the wheel in a genre entirely dedicated to us having sex with each other, you somehow claim that we are âkinkshamingâ you and being misogynist by taking away âthe one place where women can explore their kinks without judgementâ.â [x]
(Iâll put the rest under cut, cos this post is pretty long as it is)
ok so i agree that any ship hate is stupid but i really do think real life pedos should die just like real life murderers should die and real life torturers should die. but i also believe people with bpd and other mental illnesses that make them WANT to seriously abuse others should die, and tumblr defends bpd people tooth and nail. so, pedo-tendency ppl who dont want to rape children but are sexually attracted to them... i think they should die along with bpd people for wanting to manipulate.
I cannot agree with you for two reasons. First - I am strongly against violence and murder. Second - your opinion is not properly informed and seems to be based on fear-mongering.
Letâs start with murderers and torturers. I can only imagine the emotional whirlpool of sitting in the same court room with a person who had murdered or hurt your loved ones. Deep anguish mixed with anger and a feeling of hopelessness. I understand the desire to see the perpetrator pay the price. But I often ask myself, would that solve the issue? Would we have less murder and torture? Would that bring back the victims to life, or erase the trauma the survivors got from their torturers?
Letâs talk about pedophiles. You acknowledge that there are pedophiles who do not wish to harm children (and most of them never will), yet you still think they should die. You blatantly group pedophiles with child abusers, two notions that may overlap, but are not the same thing. By telling innocent people that they should die, do you not become their torturer?
I would like you to elaborate on the issue with people with bpd. If people have a mental illness, should they get help? Perhaps people on tumblr defend bpd people because they get enormous amounts hatred and death threats?
Since you're a woman, you don't get a say in what gay men can and cannot be uncomfortable with.
Thank you for your ask. I see myself as nonbinary more than a woman. But thatâs beside the point.
Do individual gay men get a say in what other gay men can and cannot be uncomfortable with?
However, I believe thatâs not even relevant in this case. It is up to individual people to feel the way they do. Their feelings are none of my business. What concerns me if the way some people express their discomfort. Being gay does grant you the right to decide what is acceptable and not in gay fiction just like being bisexual does not grant me the right to police bisexual fiction.Â
Youâve had so many great posts on this exact topic, so many insights and examples, yet you continue to push the same idea, ignoring everything people have said about it. This is turning into a vicious circle, really.
But let me add a new insight, then. A different angle. Is a straight woman allowed to write het porn? Sure, this is something that is part of her identity and her experience, but she is not a man. Can she really accurately portray the manâs point of you in her story? Isnât she, by your logic, fetishizing the man? I mean, sheâs writing a porno, after all.
Once someone sent me a link to a freaking wordpress article to prove that fiction influenced reality. Against better judgement, I read it. Predictably, it was an opinion piece with no scientific evidence presented. Amazing.
There is no scientific evidence.Â
Oh, there are plenty of studies that prove that reading does something to your brain, mostly positive things, which is why everyone always empathizes how important reading is to develop a better understanding of the world around us and humanity as a wholeâŚÂ
But then, thatâs the reason why many people condemn fiction: because it makes people think, and question some of the assumptions they have been brought up to believe uncritically.Â
âquestion some of the assumptions they have been brought up to believe uncriticallyâ
To anyone who reads this: donât be afraid to have doubts in your beliefs. Always questions your beliefs. Ask yourself for proof of the things you hold as fact. If we donât do this, weâll at best end up in a pool of misinformation (think about the famous misconceptions that so many people believe in, like seeing the Great Wall of China from space). At worst, weâll create an authoritarian environment that censors free speech based on ungrounded fears.Â
The sane version of this:
Really, you canât see the Great Wall of China from space? I didnât know that. But I looked it up and apparently itâs in fact some some sort of urban myth. Thanks for telling me this!
The anti version of this (and yes, Iâm aware that Iâm creating a strawman here):
What kind of bullshit is this.Â
Thatâs not true!!!! Youâre just saying that to deny the acchievement of people of color and shit on their cultural heritate, you racist piece of shit.Â

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Thanks for letting me know you hate gay men. Now I know to stay away from you and other people who think it's okay to sexualize me. Thank you!
Itâs always fascinated me how people prefer to use strong language instead of arguments. I mean, I shouldnât be surprised - strong words can evoke strong emotions and often help mask the fact that the speaker (or writer) cannot otherwise support their claim.Â
Let me ask you - why do you claim I hate men? What made you come to that conclusion? Also, if someone is sexualizing you personally and itâs making you uncomfortable, tell them to stop. They have no right to do that. But remember - you do not represent all gay men. Your opinion might be different from other gay menâs. Therefore, I strongly suggest to reconsider the position of an entitled victim. Iâm sorry I for being blunt, but thatâs pretty much what youâre doing right now.Â
âI happen to be gay, a trait I accidentally have in common with approximately 150 millions of people (or more) in this world, and if a person who is not gay writes about a gay relationship, any gay relationship, they are sexualizing and hurting me, personally.â
That pretty much sums up the whole discourse.Â
I see a lot of over-identification in age-gap discourse, too. ââIâm Xâs age and would not be comfortable dating someone Yâs age, so stop shipping it!â
And, well, identifying with a character is one thing, insisting no one should write a story in which that character does things you would not be comfortable with⌠is another.
Youâre right! It also made me remember the more peculiar cases like âI strongly identify with X, so you shouldnât portray them the way I donât like.â I am interested in the psychology behind it, though. A question of finding oneâs self is part of many peopleâs lives, and finding someone (or something) to identify with is a vital part of that process. However, why do some people take it to an extreme level, I wonder?
RE: Women and m/m fiction (2)
Thereâs another thread in the discussion I mentioned here and I would like to comment on that as well. Sorry for the clumsy formatting. The OP was apparently afraid of my opinion, because not only did they never reply to me, they made the post unreblogable. The reason I keep pressing on the matter is because this topic is very important and I donât want it to turn into another excuse for bullying.
The original post, although never backed up by any arguments by the author, is an opinion which in itself seems harmless enough, but it can incite aggression from others. Iâm going to post some responses to it starting from a post that was a direct reply to me and later going chronologically.
@rosesama35â wrote:
What rosesama says makes sense. If you find the fiction you donât agree with, just ignore it. I know it might not be easy knowing how ubiquitous female created slash fiction is, but all of it canât be bad. Check the tags, remember the artists you like, promote the artists you love, and if you can, create something of your own.
@yourshipsaregross replied:
They did speak about it many times, but the arguments they provide are all come down to blaming all the problems in gay fiction on women. And of course thereâs the rhetoric of âitâs not straight womenâs placeâ.
You have the right to an opinion, you have the right to publish it online, you have the right to disagree with people, but you are you to tell others what their âplaceâ is? You think itâs problematic? Discuss it, point out why it problematic, educate people, but donât you ever try to tell people what to do.
I simply cannot fathom the arrogance, to be honest. You are not an authority on this matter and neither are gay men. Their voice is pivotal to this discussion and their perspective is often an eye opener, which I am always glad to have encountered. But that does not grant them the rights to other peopleâs self expression.
By the way, Iâve also discussed this topic multiple times. Here, here, here, and here.
I honestly wish you would open your mind to different opinions. donât block people who disagree with you. Ask them questions. Try to understand why they think the way they think. Your goal is noble, as you seem driven by a desire to stand together with gay men on this issue, but the view is based on pure emotion without reason. Not even all gay men support this stance.
Continue talking about it, continue spreading the word and educating people, but please donât start policing others.
@bunnymund-kix-cgl-in-the-shin replies to rosesamaâs last statement:
In a way, it does make sense. If you want to accomplish something, you probably shouldnât ignore a related issue. However, this raises a question. What do people want to accomplish by writing these posts?
@mynamessloth also replies:
Again the idea of fetishizing is brought up. Could you define fetishizing?
Also, maybe the reason other members of the lgbt community are speaking up is because this issue is being taken out of proportion and is slowly turning into a crusade?
Itâs funny that you bring up biphobia, as in thatâs the only reason a bi or pan individual would care to respond to an opinion. But it also made me think. How entitled are we to be the âguardiansâ of the idea that is related to who we are? If Iâm bisexual, am I allowed to set the standards of what is and isnât acceptable representation of my identity? But what if other bisexuals disagree?
When the post became unrebloffable, I decided to leave off. Either Tumblr was clutching or @yourshipsaregross decided they didnât want to continue having a conversation. Judging by how they told me to leave off their blog, Iâm inclined to believe the latter. So thank you for trying to keep the conversation going.
Iâm not entirely sure how accepting straight women writing slash fiction is equivalent to seeing gay men as nothing more than gay open fodder. That seems like a bit of leap to me, and if youâve got a way to explain that to me, then Iâm all ears. Seriously.
Are you referring to the large amount of smut that can take place in slash fiction? Well for one, it isnât isolated to slash. Thatâs fanfiction in general. Iâm of the personal belief that indulging in smut doesnât mean that you hold no value for the people in that smut. I think some great examples of this can be found in the Sherlock fandom, or the Torchwood fandom.
There are many times where Iâll come across fics people write about prominent make characters in that show. They try their best to capture the things they love about their complex relationship, (especially Jack and Ianto in the Torchwood fandom.) But part of exploring that complexity includes exploring the sexual side of things. Especially for a character like Jack, who in the show is introduced and reaffirmed as a sexually liberal kind of guy. What Iâm trying to say is that from my personal experience, yes there are a lot of straight women (and this is just an assumption. I donât go around asking authors for their credentials before reading a fic) who write slash fiction. And yes sex and smut come up a lot. But from what Iâve seen (and again, just my personal experience) that sex is usually a part of a larger complex relationship the writer is trying to portray. And I think thatâs an honest way of writing about relationships, be they gay or straight, or otherwise.
Yes, there is a lot of silly and pointless smut out there. For any fandom. For any sexuality. But thatâs really what it is, silly and pointless. Someone exploring sexuality potentially from a viewpoint or standpoint that isnât there. As I said in a previous post, I can only see that, even that silly pointless smutty stuff, as a good thing. Because if it is a lot of straight women (or hell, straight whoever) writing this, that means there are lots of non-queer people (and please, beg pardon if queer is offensive for you. Iâm just using it as an umbrella term, as Iâve seen others use it) out there attempting to understand the world, or even just one small facet of life, from a non-straight personâs standpoint. You know, trying to walk in someone elseâs shoes. Isnât that good for being inclusive, and being open and understanding?
@mynamessloth paints a pretty darn broad brush that Iâd like to address. You are saying that ANY straight woman who writes gay fiction does not view ANY gay person, or specifically gay men, as real people, whatsoever. They merely some sort of dehumanized tool for their sexual fantasy. Is that what you are saying? Because buddy, thatâs rude. You are asserting that no straight personâs motive for writing any sort of slash fiction is an honest one, and that it is blatantly obvious upon reading their work. I must heartily disagree.
I love the show Warehouse 13. There are two female characters that a great many within the fandom ship together, such as myself. And some of the most wonderful, accurate to the character, complete, and at times smutty fiction Iâve read in regards to shipping these two women, have been written by straight women. They are fabulous writers, and fabulous people, who care equally as much about the slash ship as I do. So maybe, just maybe, all those poorly written slash fics youâve read werenât written by straight women whose hate for gay men bleeds through the page, but perhaps just by immature 13-year-olds who are still developing their understanding of how romantic relationships work. Just a thought.
Apologies if at times my writing seemed to stray from the main topic. Itâs still early.
âIâm of the personal belief that indulging in smut doesnât mean that you hold no value for the people in that smut.â
I was thinking about this. Letâs take two straight people - Â a man and a woman. Letâs say both of them write het fanfics. By that logic, the woman, writing a het fic is probably fetishizing and objectifying the man, because she is not a man, yet here she is, writing about a woman getting pleasure from a man. The same can be said about the man.Â
Keep reading
Iâm happy to add to the discourse. Honestly, Iâm happy to take part in a discourse that isnât just a screaming match or a reduction to name calling.
I get that this can be a touchy and tricky subject for a lot of people. But I believe there is a reasonable way through it. And I think it starts with pulling away from the mentality of blaming the masses for something terrible, and instead focusing on issues case by case. If you read something that makes you uncomfortable, or you feel was done in bad taste, open up some dialogue with the author. Being a writer myself, I know I love it when people ask me about my stories (when I get up the courage to post them online, that is.) Iâve seen many other writers who vocally state that they feel the same way - that they love discussing their work with curious readers. Hopefully it would be the same way for whomever has written some fiction that has left you feeling disquieted.
Ask them how they came up with that idea. What point they were trying to get across. What made them choose one course of action over another? Why they think that particular sex act could even happen in the realm of physics? Do they honestly think the Human body works that way? Haha, but I digress. Open, honest, and non-accusatory conversation with content creators is the way forward, I think, not this gate-keeping mentality that some have built up.
I have been using the word âyouâ in a more ambiguous sense, addressing more so those who have dissenting opinions, and not specifically YOU, @shipinpeace. Though like you, I am curious about what forms of showing respect people would like. I see the phrase used frequently, that what is desired is respect shown to this or that. What exactly would that respect look like? Not writing about it at all? I certainly hope not.
You added good examples here. I specifically resonate with the idea of discussing individual examples over throwing vague accusations.
do all these 'women shouldn't write mlm, it's fetishizing!' realize how horrifically they're othering gay men in their arguments? it's like some grossly offensive 'magical homo' trope come to life. (plus have they ever read gay porn written BY gay men before they argue about over-sexualization, focus on the sexual acts and unsafe sex in gay stories? IT'S FANTASY, not fucking activism, holy shit.)
When is sex ever depicted accurately in anyoneâs fiction? Weâre all mostly writing sanitized and overly romantical versions of it. Because thatâs what we want to read. No one wants a clinical, step-by-step recount of every little thing that contributes to make real-life sex experiences really fucking awkward and comical.
Whether itâs m/f or m/m, itâs always the same. Virgins have great sexual experiences, women orgasm at least twice and always come during piv intercourse, everyone loves oral, people have athletic and satisfying sex while theyâre really fucking drunk, positions are never uncomfortable, dicks and vaginas never taste like fish or urine, unprotected anal sex never causes diarrhea, there are no funny noises or farting during sex, pubic hair never gets stuck between teeth, anal preparation always requires one-two-three fingers first, women always love having their nipples played with, and so on and on the list goes.Â
But apparently, when it comes to gay sex, weâre not allowed to be romantic, or weâre actively hurting gay men?Â
Does not make a lot of sense to me.Â
Especially because, as you said, many male writers donât actually write all that different. Dreamspinner press, anyone?
I can't take the "don't write m/m if you're a woman!" thing seriously, because I've seen so many 'gay male' writers who were universally revered and worshipped for their 'accurate' and 'authentic' portrayal of the gay male 'experience' (to the point they were telling women HOW to write gay males in fiction) later proven to be straight women that it's laughable how these kids believe a Tumblr or AO3 profile as being gospel and assigning authenticity to what amounts to words on a screen.
Relevant addition.Â
âAssigning authenticity to what amounts to words on a screen.â
Very well put, nonnie.
More on the current topic.
Thanks for letting me know you hate gay men. Now I know to stay away from you and other people who think it's okay to sexualize me. Thank you!
Itâs always fascinated me how people prefer to use strong language instead of arguments. I mean, I shouldnât be surprised - strong words can evoke strong emotions and often help mask the fact that the speaker (or writer) cannot otherwise support their claim.Â
Let me ask you - why do you claim I hate men? What made you come to that conclusion? Also, if someone is sexualizing you personally and itâs making you uncomfortable, tell them to stop. They have no right to do that. But remember - you do not represent all gay men. Your opinion might be different from other gay menâs. Therefore, I strongly suggest to reconsider the position of an entitled victim. Iâm sorry I for being blunt, but thatâs pretty much what youâre doing right now.Â
âI happen to be gay, a trait I accidentally have in common with approximately 150 millions of people (or more) in this world, and if a person who is not gay writes about a gay relationship, any gay relationship, they are sexualizing and hurting me, personally.â
That pretty much sums up the whole discourse.Â

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Hey, I found my anon
@yourshipsaregross Regarding this.Â
Look, I get it. You have strong opinions, yet you donât like confrontation. You have a lot of anger in you, yet you care about people. By the end of the day, despite all the nasty messages, you only want to do whatâs right.Â
But you have to understand that if you accuse people of stuff, you have to be able to back up your accusations. So far youâve been throwing these vague, baseless sentences and providing little to no explanation.
Tell me, what is bothering you? Why are you so angry? What event inspired you to create your current blog? (Based on its name Iâm guessing it is not your main blog.) I want to understand you better, so I can understand why people like you hold this opinion.
RE: Women and m/m fiction (2)
Thereâs another thread in the discussion I mentioned here and I would like to comment on that as well. Sorry for the clumsy formatting. The OP was apparently afraid of my opinion, because not only did they never reply to me, they made the post unreblogable. The reason I keep pressing on the matter is because this topic is very important and I donât want it to turn into another excuse for bullying.
The original post, although never backed up by any arguments by the author, is an opinion which in itself seems harmless enough, but it can incite aggression from others. Iâm going to post some responses to it starting from a post that was a direct reply to me and later going chronologically.
@rosesama35â wrote:
What rosesama says makes sense. If you find the fiction you donât agree with, just ignore it. I know it might not be easy knowing how ubiquitous female created slash fiction is, but all of it canât be bad. Check the tags, remember the artists you like, promote the artists you love, and if you can, create something of your own.
@yourshipsaregross replied:
They did speak about it many times, but the arguments they provide are all come down to blaming all the problems in gay fiction on women. And of course thereâs the rhetoric of âitâs not straight womenâs placeâ.
You have the right to an opinion, you have the right to publish it online, you have the right to disagree with people, but you are you to tell others what their âplaceâ is? You think itâs problematic? Discuss it, point out why it problematic, educate people, but donât you ever try to tell people what to do.
I simply cannot fathom the arrogance, to be honest. You are not an authority on this matter and neither are gay men. Their voice is pivotal to this discussion and their perspective is often an eye opener, which I am always glad to have encountered. But that does not grant them the rights to other peopleâs self expression.
By the way, Iâve also discussed this topic multiple times. Here, here, here, and here.
I honestly wish you would open your mind to different opinions. donât block people who disagree with you. Ask them questions. Try to understand why they think the way they think. Your goal is noble, as you seem driven by a desire to stand together with gay men on this issue, but the view is based on pure emotion without reason. Not even all gay men support this stance.
Continue talking about it, continue spreading the word and educating people, but please donât start policing others.
@bunnymund-kix-cgl-in-the-shin replies to rosesamaâs last statement:
In a way, it does make sense. If you want to accomplish something, you probably shouldnât ignore a related issue. However, this raises a question. What do people want to accomplish by writing these posts?
@mynamessloth also replies:
Again the idea of fetishizing is brought up. Could you define fetishizing?
Also, maybe the reason other members of the lgbt community are speaking up is because this issue is being taken out of proportion and is slowly turning into a crusade?
Itâs funny that you bring up biphobia, as in thatâs the only reason a bi or pan individual would care to respond to an opinion. But it also made me think. How entitled are we to be the âguardiansâ of the idea that is related to who we are? If Iâm bisexual, am I allowed to set the standards of what is and isnât acceptable representation of my identity? But what if other bisexuals disagree?
When the post became unrebloffable, I decided to leave off. Either Tumblr was clutching or @yourshipsaregross decided they didnât want to continue having a conversation. Judging by how they told me to leave off their blog, Iâm inclined to believe the latter. So thank you for trying to keep the conversation going.
Iâm not entirely sure how accepting straight women writing slash fiction is equivalent to seeing gay men as nothing more than gay open fodder. That seems like a bit of leap to me, and if youâve got a way to explain that to me, then Iâm all ears. Seriously.
Are you referring to the large amount of smut that can take place in slash fiction? Well for one, it isnât isolated to slash. Thatâs fanfiction in general. Iâm of the personal belief that indulging in smut doesnât mean that you hold no value for the people in that smut. I think some great examples of this can be found in the Sherlock fandom, or the Torchwood fandom.
There are many times where Iâll come across fics people write about prominent make characters in that show. They try their best to capture the things they love about their complex relationship, (especially Jack and Ianto in the Torchwood fandom.) But part of exploring that complexity includes exploring the sexual side of things. Especially for a character like Jack, who in the show is introduced and reaffirmed as a sexually liberal kind of guy. What Iâm trying to say is that from my personal experience, yes there are a lot of straight women (and this is just an assumption. I donât go around asking authors for their credentials before reading a fic) who write slash fiction. And yes sex and smut come up a lot. But from what Iâve seen (and again, just my personal experience) that sex is usually a part of a larger complex relationship the writer is trying to portray. And I think thatâs an honest way of writing about relationships, be they gay or straight, or otherwise.
Yes, there is a lot of silly and pointless smut out there. For any fandom. For any sexuality. But thatâs really what it is, silly and pointless. Someone exploring sexuality potentially from a viewpoint or standpoint that isnât there. As I said in a previous post, I can only see that, even that silly pointless smutty stuff, as a good thing. Because if it is a lot of straight women (or hell, straight whoever) writing this, that means there are lots of non-queer people (and please, beg pardon if queer is offensive for you. Iâm just using it as an umbrella term, as Iâve seen others use it) out there attempting to understand the world, or even just one small facet of life, from a non-straight personâs standpoint. You know, trying to walk in someone elseâs shoes. Isnât that good for being inclusive, and being open and understanding?
@mynamessloth paints a pretty darn broad brush that Iâd like to address. You are saying that ANY straight woman who writes gay fiction does not view ANY gay person, or specifically gay men, as real people, whatsoever. They merely some sort of dehumanized tool for their sexual fantasy. Is that what you are saying? Because buddy, thatâs rude. You are asserting that no straight personâs motive for writing any sort of slash fiction is an honest one, and that it is blatantly obvious upon reading their work. I must heartily disagree.
I love the show Warehouse 13. There are two female characters that a great many within the fandom ship together, such as myself. And some of the most wonderful, accurate to the character, complete, and at times smutty fiction Iâve read in regards to shipping these two women, have been written by straight women. They are fabulous writers, and fabulous people, who care equally as much about the slash ship as I do. So maybe, just maybe, all those poorly written slash fics youâve read werenât written by straight women whose hate for gay men bleeds through the page, but perhaps just by immature 13-year-olds who are still developing their understanding of how romantic relationships work. Just a thought.
Apologies if at times my writing seemed to stray from the main topic. Itâs still early.
"Iâm of the personal belief that indulging in smut doesnât mean that you hold no value for the people in that smut.â
I was thinking about this. Letâs take two straight people - Â a man and a woman. Letâs say both of them write het fanfics. By that logic, the woman, writing a het fic is probably fetishizing and objectifying the man, because she is not a man, yet here she is, writing about a woman getting pleasure from a man. The same can be said about the man.Â
RE: Women and m/m fiction (2)
Thereâs another thread in the discussion I mentioned here and I would like to comment on that as well. Sorry for the clumsy formatting. The OP was apparently afraid of my opinion, because not only did they never reply to me, they made the post unreblogable. The reason I keep pressing on the matter is because this topic is very important and I donât want it to turn into another excuse for bullying.
The original post, although never backed up by any arguments by the author, is an opinion which in itself seems harmless enough, but it can incite aggression from others. Iâm going to post some responses to it starting from a post that was a direct reply to me and later going chronologically.
@rosesama35â wrote:
What rosesama says makes sense. If you find the fiction you donât agree with, just ignore it. I know it might not be easy knowing how ubiquitous female created slash fiction is, but all of it canât be bad. Check the tags, remember the artists you like, promote the artists you love, and if you can, create something of your own.
@yourshipsaregross replied:
They did speak about it many times, but the arguments they provide are all come down to blaming all the problems in gay fiction on women. And of course thereâs the rhetoric of âitâs not straight womenâs placeâ.
You have the right to an opinion, you have the right to publish it online, you have the right to disagree with people, but you are you to tell others what their âplaceâ is? You think itâs problematic? Discuss it, point out why it problematic, educate people, but donât you ever try to tell people what to do.
I simply cannot fathom the arrogance, to be honest. You are not an authority on this matter and neither are gay men. Their voice is pivotal to this discussion and their perspective is often an eye opener, which I am always glad to have encountered. But that does not grant them the rights to other peopleâs self expression.
By the way, Iâve also discussed this topic multiple times. Here, here, here, and here.
I honestly wish you would open your mind to different opinions. donât block people who disagree with you. Ask them questions. Try to understand why they think the way they think. Your goal is noble, as you seem driven by a desire to stand together with gay men on this issue, but the view is based on pure emotion without reason. Not even all gay men support this stance.
Continue talking about it, continue spreading the word and educating people, but please donât start policing others.
@bunnymund-kix-cgl-in-the-shin replies to rosesamaâs last statement:
In a way, it does make sense. If you want to accomplish something, you probably shouldnât ignore a related issue. However, this raises a question. What do people want to accomplish by writing these posts?
@mynamessloth also replies:
Again the idea of fetishizing is brought up. Could you define fetishizing?
Also, maybe the reason other members of the lgbt community are speaking up is because this issue is being taken out of proportion and is slowly turning into a crusade?
Itâs funny that you bring up biphobia, as in thatâs the only reason a bi or pan individual would care to respond to an opinion. But it also made me think. How entitled are we to be the âguardiansâ of the idea that is related to who we are? If Iâm bisexual, am I allowed to set the standards of what is and isnât acceptable representation of my identity? But what if other bisexuals disagree?
Okay, listen. Fetishization is when you only see something in a sexual light. Because itâs a fetish, right? Straight women have a habit of getting off to gay men (much like straight men to lesbian porn) and then not supporting them or the lgbt community. They often start to not see gay men as real humans anymore, but characters that will kiss and fuck to their will, just because they like gay men.
Would we be having this conversation if we were talking about straight men and lesbian porn? Probably not, as straight men donât give a flying fuck about lgbt rights and they sure donât see lesbians as actual people. This is the same. There are even some Christian straight girls who get off to gay men and are outright against gay marriage and lgbt rights because their faith tells them so I guess. Iâve argued with one before already.
I donât have a problem with straight women who support lgbt rights and donât hate lesbians and enjoy gay porn. If they can distinguish that gay men are real people, and donât call their shipping of gay men ~sin~ then, by all means.
The problem is straight women who donât see gay men as real people, but as their very own shipping devices, think lesbians are disgusting, and donât support lgbt rights at all. Some of them dont even want to see gay people holding hands in real life.
I know I didnât answer all of your questions, but they arenât my questions to answer.
Thank you for your reply! I have some questions, though, if you donât mind.
Oxforddictionaries.com defines fetish as âA form of sexual desire in which gratification is linked to an abnormal degree to a particular object, item of clothing, part of the body, etc.â I doubt every woman who likes gay porn likes it to an abnormal degree, but ok. Letâs roll with your definition.Â
Why is it so important that straight women who get off to gay porn supported real gay men? If they didnât get off to gay porn and still didnât support gay men, would that be more acceptable? Also, what kind of support should they show? Should they make an occasional post about it?Â
I am not mocking you, I genuinely want to know the answers. I keep seeing this thought floating around, but no one ever specified what they meant by it.Â
âThey often start to not see gay men as real humans anymore, but characters that will kiss and fuck to their will, just because they like gay men.â
If they donât see gay men as real humans, doesnât that mean that thereâs something fundamentally wrong with their opinion on gay men and it is not necessarily linked to liking gay porn? Why would a gay man care if a person who doesnât respect him happens to read slash fanfics? Sure, it can be annoying, also ironic, but would that gay manâs life change if the ignorant person didnât read slash fanfics?
âWould we be having this conversation if we were talking about straight men and lesbian porn?âÂ
People do that, though. Have this conversation, I mean. Itâs just women are easier to attack, you see.
âstraight men donât give a flying fuck about lgbt rights and they sure donât see lesbians as actual peopleâ
Really? All straight men? Even if you mean the majority, I would disagree. Iâm really saddened by this constant demonizing of straight men. Like any group of people, there are different straight men, with different personalities, tastes, views, emotions... Itâs really cruel to just smash them all together and accuse of things :( even if most straight men like lesbian porn it doesnât automatically mean they donât see lesbians as people. Why do you claim they do?Â
Also, Iâve already briefly talked about it in this post:
Iâm not angry at straight men, though. Whatever their sexual fantasies may be, they deserve to have their escapism and a means of sexual enjoyment. Iâm more frustrated that it is, indeed, difficult to find lesbian porn that is different from the mainstream. However, I wouldnât be surprised if there were plenty of men who felt the same way. I donât like generalizing and itâs important to note that straight men are not a monolith of a single consciousness, but a diverse group of people with different preferences and tastes. And Iâve seen some quality lesbian art produced by men, as well.
I am bisexual and I have no problems with straight men getting off to lesbian porn (half of which could be bisexual porn, cos, you never know a person in a porno is bisexual unless they are in a threesome).
âThere are even some Christian straight girls who get off to gay men and are outright against gay marriage and lgbt rights because their faith tells them so I guess.â
Again, so what? Would the world be a better place if they didnât like gay porn? Would they be less homophobic? Would their religion suddenly permit them to support gay people? I donât understand why do you people bother with other peopleâs masturbatory lives? How does that affect anyone?Â
âI donât have a problem with straight women who support lgbt rights and donât hate lesbians and enjoy gay porn. If they can distinguish that gay men are real people, and donât call their shipping of gay men ~sin~ then, by all means.â
But what if you donât know that? What if all the info you have about a person is a crappy gay porno rape fanfic she wrote? Do you assume she disrespects gay men from the content of the fanfic?Â
As much as your opinion sounds reasonable, the problem in this particular discourse is that different people who argue the same points have slightly different opinions. Iâve read opinions that women shouldnât create gay male fiction unless they also create lesbian fiction.Â
Now what about the women who donât meet your criteria? What should be done in regards to them, in your opinion? (Iâm asking, because so far I got very mixed opinions on this).
âI know I didnât answer all of your questions, but they arenât my questions to answer.â
No problem! Thank you for answering the ones you did! I greatly appreciate that :)Â
Thanks for letting me know you hate gay men. Now I know to stay away from you and other people who think it's okay to sexualize me. Thank you!
Itâs always fascinated me how people prefer to use strong language instead of arguments. I mean, I shouldnât be surprised - strong words can evoke strong emotions and often help mask the fact that the speaker (or writer) cannot otherwise support their claim.Â
Let me ask you - why do you claim I hate men? What made you come to that conclusion? Also, if someone is sexualizing you personally and itâs making you uncomfortable, tell them to stop. They have no right to do that. But remember - you do not represent all gay men. Your opinion might be different from other gay menâs. Therefore, I strongly suggest to reconsider the position of an entitled victim. Iâm sorry I for being blunt, but thatâs pretty much what youâre doing right now.Â
RE: Women and m/m fiction (2)
Thereâs another thread in the discussion I mentioned here and I would like to comment on that as well. Sorry for the clumsy formatting. The OP was apparently afraid of my opinion, because not only did they never reply to me, they made the post unreblogable. The reason I keep pressing on the matter is because this topic is very important and I donât want it to turn into another excuse for bullying.
The original post, although never backed up by any arguments by the author, is an opinion which in itself seems harmless enough, but it can incite aggression from others. Iâm going to post some responses to it starting from a post that was a direct reply to me and later going chronologically.
@rosesama35â wrote:
What rosesama says makes sense. If you find the fiction you donât agree with, just ignore it. I know it might not be easy knowing how ubiquitous female created slash fiction is, but all of it canât be bad. Check the tags, remember the artists you like, promote the artists you love, and if you can, create something of your own.
@yourshipsaregross replied:
They did speak about it many times, but the arguments they provide are all come down to blaming all the problems in gay fiction on women. And of course thereâs the rhetoric of âitâs not straight womenâs placeâ.
You have the right to an opinion, you have the right to publish it online, you have the right to disagree with people, but you are you to tell others what their âplaceâ is? You think itâs problematic? Discuss it, point out why it problematic, educate people, but donât you ever try to tell people what to do.
I simply cannot fathom the arrogance, to be honest. You are not an authority on this matter and neither are gay men. Their voice is pivotal to this discussion and their perspective is often an eye opener, which I am always glad to have encountered. But that does not grant them the rights to other peopleâs self expression.
By the way, Iâve also discussed this topic multiple times. Here, here, here, and here.
I honestly wish you would open your mind to different opinions. donât block people who disagree with you. Ask them questions. Try to understand why they think the way they think. Your goal is noble, as you seem driven by a desire to stand together with gay men on this issue, but the view is based on pure emotion without reason. Not even all gay men support this stance.
Continue talking about it, continue spreading the word and educating people, but please donât start policing others.
@bunnymund-kix-cgl-in-the-shin replies to rosesamaâs last statement:
In a way, it does make sense. If you want to accomplish something, you probably shouldnât ignore a related issue. However, this raises a question. What do people want to accomplish by writing these posts?
@mynamessloth also replies:
Again the idea of fetishizing is brought up. Could you define fetishizing?
Also, maybe the reason other members of the lgbt community are speaking up is because this issue is being taken out of proportion and is slowly turning into a crusade?
Itâs funny that you bring up biphobia, as in thatâs the only reason a bi or pan individual would care to respond to an opinion. But it also made me think. How entitled are we to be the âguardiansâ of the idea that is related to who we are? If Iâm bisexual, am I allowed to set the standards of what is and isnât acceptable representation of my identity? But what if other bisexuals disagree?

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RE: Women and m/m fiction
Continued from this
@twoblogzâ Thank you for your response and the link. I would like to comment on it and Iâd like @anakinsbugsâ to read it as well, because it is directly related to his post.Â
Before I begin, let me make this clear: I am glad posts like this exist and people discuss the issues of how gay men are portrayed in the media (both officially released and fan created). We still live in a homophobic world and there is so much that has become the status quo for gay fiction, and the way it affects gay men is a crucial topic to discuss and share. However, discussing issues and attacking other are not the same.
Regarding this discussion.
@criticalsunbeam I agree! Education is extremely important and lack of it is actually a source of many problems. Thank you for your comment