Shipping Discource

Thank you for your ask. I see myself as nonbinary more than a woman. But that’s beside the point.

Do individual gay men get a say in what other gay men can and cannot be uncomfortable with?

However, I believe that’s not even relevant in this case. It is up to individual people to feel the way they do. Their feelings are none of my business. What concerns me if the way some people express their discomfort. Being gay does grant you the right to decide what is acceptable and not in gay fiction just like being bisexual does not grant me the right to police bisexual fiction. 

You’ve had so many great posts on this exact topic, so many insights and examples, yet you continue to push the same idea, ignoring everything people have said about it. This is turning into a vicious circle, really.

I absolutely agree with nonnie. No one has the right, or the power, to control other people’s feelings.

Plenty of cishet (and bi and lesbian) women write excellent mlm fic. The kinks vary, but what is always a common factor in their work, is that they see the characters are people first. Even when it’s PWP, the fetish belongs to the characters; they don’t belong to it.

Plenty of women, and afab non-binary folks, don’t know how to do this. They’re intrigued by the concept of 2 men having sex for a variety of reasons, but they don’t have the skills at writing/character building to get it across in a non-fetishy way. 

In those instances, I still won’t have an issue if they treat actual mlm like they themselves would want to be treated in a fandom setting. Because you’re absolutely right. No one can force you to listen to their experience or their POV. No person’s feelings can make you change how you conduct yourself. However, taking the time to listen to ppl who live in the community you’re touristing in when they tell you how something impacts them and shapes their circumstances, is kind of the definition of empathy and just being a decent person.

Yes gay men feel differently about certain issues, but if 10 people tell you that something is hurtful and explain why, listening to the 1 who tells you that you’re fine is not a reflection of you taking “the gay opinion” on board. There are gay guys who express their grievances better than others, of course, but if you’re an adult and some 15 year old comes into your inbox guns a-blazing, maybe take a step back and try to scratch the surface of why this kid is upset. It might be a case entitled brat ragging on you for having the wrong otp, but what if you really did step into an area that is just plain insensitive?

As an artist/writer, shouldn’t the goal be to improve and learn and do better?

There’s a lot of quotes floating around tumblr about art not being about pleasing ppl, but if you take those statements in context, then it’s always referring to works that challenge the status quo and empower the marginalized.

The problem starts with policing. When people start writing stuff like this:

“and when men who love men like myself bring up the fact that maybe you guys should stay in your lane a little and let us take the wheel in a genre entirely dedicated to us having sex with each other, you somehow claim that we are “kinkshaming” you and being misogynist by taking away “the one place where women can explore their kinks without judgement”.” [x]

(I’ll put the rest under cut, cos this post is pretty long as it is)

There is no scientific evidence. 

Oh, there are plenty of studies that prove that reading does something to your brain, mostly positive things, which is why everyone always empathizes how important reading is to develop a better understanding of the world around us and humanity as a whole… 

Really, you can’t see the Great Wall of China from space? I didn’t know that. But I looked it up and apparently it’s in fact some some sort of urban myth. Thanks for telling me this!

The anti version of this (and yes, I’m aware that I’m creating a strawman here):

What kind of bullshit is this. 

It’s always fascinated me how people prefer to use strong language instead of arguments. I mean, I shouldn’t be surprised - strong words can evoke strong emotions and often help mask the fact that the speaker (or writer) cannot otherwise support their claim. 

There’s another thread in the discussion I mentioned here and I would like to comment on that as well. Sorry for the clumsy formatting. The OP was apparently afraid of my opinion, because not only did they never reply to me, they made the post unreblogable. The reason I keep pressing on the matter is because this topic is very important and I don’t want it to turn into another excuse for bullying.

The original post, although never backed up by any arguments by the author, is an opinion which in itself seems harmless enough, but it can incite aggression from others. I’m going to post some responses to it starting from a post that was a direct reply to me and later going chronologically.

@rosesama35​ wrote:

What rosesama says makes sense. If you find the fiction you don’t agree with, just ignore it. I know it might not be easy knowing how ubiquitous female created slash fiction is, but all of it can’t be bad. Check the tags, remember the artists you like, promote the artists you love, and if you can, create something of your own.

@yourshipsaregross replied:

They did speak about it many times, but the arguments they provide are all come down to blaming all the problems in gay fiction on women. And of course there’s the rhetoric of “it’s not straight women’s place”.

You have the right to an opinion, you have the right to publish it online, you have the right to disagree with people, but you are you to tell others what their “place” is? You think it’s problematic? Discuss it, point out why it problematic, educate people, but don’t you ever try to tell people what to do.

I simply cannot fathom the arrogance, to be honest. You are not an authority on this matter and neither are gay men. Their voice is pivotal to this discussion and their perspective is often an eye opener, which I am always glad to have encountered. But that does not grant them the rights to other people’s self expression.

By the way, I’ve also discussed this topic multiple times. Here, here, here, and here.

I honestly wish you would open your mind to different opinions. don’t block people who disagree with you. Ask them questions. Try to understand why they think the way they think. Your goal is noble, as you seem driven by a desire to stand together with gay men on this issue, but the view is based on pure emotion without reason. Not even all gay men support this stance.

Continue talking about it, continue spreading the word and educating people, but please don’t start policing others.

@bunnymund-kix-cgl-in-the-shin replies to rosesama’s last statement:

In a way, it does make sense. If you want to accomplish something, you probably shouldn’t ignore a related issue. However, this raises a question. What do people want to accomplish by writing these posts?

@mynamessloth also replies:

Again the idea of fetishizing is brought up. Could you define fetishizing?

Also, maybe the reason other members of the lgbt community are speaking up is because this issue is being taken out of proportion and is slowly turning into a crusade?

I’m not entirely sure how accepting straight women writing slash fiction is equivalent to seeing gay men as nothing more than gay open fodder. That seems like a bit of leap to me, and if you’ve got a way to explain that to me, then I’m all ears. Seriously.

Are you referring to the large amount of smut that can take place in slash fiction? Well for one, it isn’t isolated to slash. That’s fanfiction in general. I’m of the personal belief that indulging in smut doesn’t mean that you hold no value for the people in that smut. I think some great examples of this can be found in the Sherlock fandom, or the Torchwood fandom.

There are many times where I’ll come across fics people write about prominent make characters in that show. They try their best to capture the things they love about their complex relationship, (especially Jack and Ianto in the Torchwood fandom.) But part of exploring that complexity includes exploring the sexual side of things. Especially for a character like Jack, who in the show is introduced and reaffirmed as a sexually liberal kind of guy. What I’m trying to say is that from my personal experience, yes there are a lot of straight women (and this is just an assumption. I don’t go around asking authors for their credentials before reading a fic) who write slash fiction. And yes sex and smut come up a lot. But from what I’ve seen (and again, just my personal experience) that sex is usually a part of a larger complex relationship the writer is trying to portray. And I think that’s an honest way of writing about relationships, be they gay or straight, or otherwise.

Yes, there is a lot of silly and pointless smut out there. For any fandom. For any sexuality. But that’s really what it is, silly and pointless. Someone exploring sexuality potentially from a viewpoint or standpoint that isn’t there. As I said in a previous post, I can only see that, even that silly pointless smutty stuff, as a good thing. Because if it is a lot of straight women (or hell, straight whoever) writing this, that means there are lots of non-queer people (and please, beg pardon if queer is offensive for you. I’m just using it as an umbrella term, as I’ve seen others use it) out there attempting to understand the world, or even just one small facet of life, from a non-straight person’s standpoint. You know, trying to walk in someone else’s shoes. Isn’t that good for being inclusive, and being open and understanding?

@mynamessloth paints a pretty darn broad brush that I’d like to address. You are saying that ANY straight woman who writes gay fiction does not view ANY gay person, or specifically gay men, as real people, whatsoever. They merely some sort of dehumanized tool for their sexual fantasy. Is that what you are saying? Because buddy, that’s rude. You are asserting that no straight person’s motive for writing any sort of slash fiction is an honest one, and that it is blatantly obvious upon reading their work. I must heartily disagree.

I love the show Warehouse 13. There are two female characters that a great many within the fandom ship together, such as myself. And some of the most wonderful, accurate to the character, complete, and at times smutty fiction I’ve read in regards to shipping these two women, have been written by straight women. They are fabulous writers, and fabulous people, who care equally as much about the slash ship as I do. So maybe, just maybe, all those poorly written slash fics you’ve read weren’t written by straight women whose hate for gay men bleeds through the page, but perhaps just by immature 13-year-olds who are still developing their understanding of how romantic relationships work. Just a thought.

I was thinking about this. Let’s take two straight people -  a man and a woman. Let’s say both of them write het fanfics. By that logic, the woman, writing a het fic is probably fetishizing and objectifying the man, because she is not a man, yet here she is, writing about a woman getting pleasure from a man. The same can be said about the man. 

I get that this can be a touchy and tricky subject for a lot of people. But I believe there is a reasonable way through it.  And I think it starts with pulling away from the mentality of blaming the masses for something terrible, and instead focusing on issues case by case.  If you read something that makes you uncomfortable, or you feel was done in bad taste, open up some dialogue with the author.  Being a writer myself, I know I love it when people ask me about my stories (when I get up the courage to post them online, that is.)  I’ve seen many other writers who vocally state that they feel the same way - that they love discussing their work with curious readers.  Hopefully it would be the same way for whomever has written some fiction that has left you feeling disquieted.

Ask them how they came up with that idea.  What point they were trying to get across.  What made them choose one course of action over another?  Why they think that particular sex act could even happen in the realm of physics?  Do they honestly think the Human body works that way? Haha, but I digress.  Open, honest, and non-accusatory conversation with content creators is the way forward, I think, not this gate-keeping mentality that some have built up.

When is sex ever depicted accurately in anyone’s fiction? We’re all mostly writing sanitized and overly romantical versions of it. Because that’s what we want to read. No one wants a clinical, step-by-step recount of every little thing that contributes to make real-life sex experiences really fucking awkward and comical.

Whether it’s m/f or m/m, it’s always the same. Virgins have great sexual experiences, women orgasm at least twice and always come during piv intercourse, everyone loves oral, people have athletic and satisfying sex while they’re really fucking drunk, positions are never uncomfortable, dicks and vaginas never taste like fish or urine, unprotected anal sex never causes diarrhea, there are no funny noises or farting during sex, pubic hair never gets stuck between teeth, anal preparation always requires one-two-three fingers first, women always love having their nipples played with, and so on and on the list goes. 

But apparently, when it comes to gay sex, we’re not allowed to be romantic, or we’re actively hurting gay men? 

Does not make a lot of sense to me. 

Relevant addition. 

“Assigning authenticity to what amounts to words on a screen.”

It’s always fascinated me how people prefer to use strong language instead of arguments. I mean, I shouldn’t be surprised - strong words can evoke strong emotions and often help mask the fact that the speaker (or writer) cannot otherwise support their claim. 

There’s another thread in the discussion I mentioned here and I would like to comment on that as well. Sorry for the clumsy formatting. The OP was apparently afraid of my opinion, because not only did they never reply to me, they made the post unreblogable. The reason I keep pressing on the matter is because this topic is very important and I don’t want it to turn into another excuse for bullying.

The original post, although never backed up by any arguments by the author, is an opinion which in itself seems harmless enough, but it can incite aggression from others. I’m going to post some responses to it starting from a post that was a direct reply to me and later going chronologically.

@rosesama35​ wrote:

What rosesama says makes sense. If you find the fiction you don’t agree with, just ignore it. I know it might not be easy knowing how ubiquitous female created slash fiction is, but all of it can’t be bad. Check the tags, remember the artists you like, promote the artists you love, and if you can, create something of your own.

@yourshipsaregross replied:

They did speak about it many times, but the arguments they provide are all come down to blaming all the problems in gay fiction on women. And of course there’s the rhetoric of “it’s not straight women’s place”.

You have the right to an opinion, you have the right to publish it online, you have the right to disagree with people, but you are you to tell others what their “place” is? You think it’s problematic? Discuss it, point out why it problematic, educate people, but don’t you ever try to tell people what to do.

I simply cannot fathom the arrogance, to be honest. You are not an authority on this matter and neither are gay men. Their voice is pivotal to this discussion and their perspective is often an eye opener, which I am always glad to have encountered. But that does not grant them the rights to other people’s self expression.

By the way, I’ve also discussed this topic multiple times. Here, here, here, and here.

I honestly wish you would open your mind to different opinions. don’t block people who disagree with you. Ask them questions. Try to understand why they think the way they think. Your goal is noble, as you seem driven by a desire to stand together with gay men on this issue, but the view is based on pure emotion without reason. Not even all gay men support this stance.

Continue talking about it, continue spreading the word and educating people, but please don’t start policing others.

@bunnymund-kix-cgl-in-the-shin replies to rosesama’s last statement:

In a way, it does make sense. If you want to accomplish something, you probably shouldn’t ignore a related issue. However, this raises a question. What do people want to accomplish by writing these posts?

@mynamessloth also replies:

Again the idea of fetishizing is brought up. Could you define fetishizing?

Also, maybe the reason other members of the lgbt community are speaking up is because this issue is being taken out of proportion and is slowly turning into a crusade?

I’m not entirely sure how accepting straight women writing slash fiction is equivalent to seeing gay men as nothing more than gay open fodder. That seems like a bit of leap to me, and if you’ve got a way to explain that to me, then I’m all ears. Seriously.

Are you referring to the large amount of smut that can take place in slash fiction? Well for one, it isn’t isolated to slash. That’s fanfiction in general. I’m of the personal belief that indulging in smut doesn’t mean that you hold no value for the people in that smut. I think some great examples of this can be found in the Sherlock fandom, or the Torchwood fandom.

There are many times where I’ll come across fics people write about prominent make characters in that show. They try their best to capture the things they love about their complex relationship, (especially Jack and Ianto in the Torchwood fandom.) But part of exploring that complexity includes exploring the sexual side of things. Especially for a character like Jack, who in the show is introduced and reaffirmed as a sexually liberal kind of guy. What I’m trying to say is that from my personal experience, yes there are a lot of straight women (and this is just an assumption. I don’t go around asking authors for their credentials before reading a fic) who write slash fiction. And yes sex and smut come up a lot. But from what I’ve seen (and again, just my personal experience) that sex is usually a part of a larger complex relationship the writer is trying to portray. And I think that’s an honest way of writing about relationships, be they gay or straight, or otherwise.

Yes, there is a lot of silly and pointless smut out there. For any fandom. For any sexuality. But that’s really what it is, silly and pointless. Someone exploring sexuality potentially from a viewpoint or standpoint that isn’t there. As I said in a previous post, I can only see that, even that silly pointless smutty stuff, as a good thing. Because if it is a lot of straight women (or hell, straight whoever) writing this, that means there are lots of non-queer people (and please, beg pardon if queer is offensive for you. I’m just using it as an umbrella term, as I’ve seen others use it) out there attempting to understand the world, or even just one small facet of life, from a non-straight person’s standpoint. You know, trying to walk in someone else’s shoes. Isn’t that good for being inclusive, and being open and understanding?

@mynamessloth paints a pretty darn broad brush that I’d like to address. You are saying that ANY straight woman who writes gay fiction does not view ANY gay person, or specifically gay men, as real people, whatsoever. They merely some sort of dehumanized tool for their sexual fantasy. Is that what you are saying? Because buddy, that’s rude. You are asserting that no straight person’s motive for writing any sort of slash fiction is an honest one, and that it is blatantly obvious upon reading their work. I must heartily disagree.

I love the show Warehouse 13. There are two female characters that a great many within the fandom ship together, such as myself. And some of the most wonderful, accurate to the character, complete, and at times smutty fiction I’ve read in regards to shipping these two women, have been written by straight women. They are fabulous writers, and fabulous people, who care equally as much about the slash ship as I do. So maybe, just maybe, all those poorly written slash fics you’ve read weren’t written by straight women whose hate for gay men bleeds through the page, but perhaps just by immature 13-year-olds who are still developing their understanding of how romantic relationships work. Just a thought.

I was thinking about this. Let’s take two straight people -  a man and a woman. Let’s say both of them write het fanfics. By that logic, the woman, writing a het fic is probably fetishizing and objectifying the man, because she is not a man, yet here she is, writing about a woman getting pleasure from a man. The same can be said about the man. 

There’s another thread in the discussion I mentioned here and I would like to comment on that as well. Sorry for the clumsy formatting. The OP was apparently afraid of my opinion, because not only did they never reply to me, they made the post unreblogable. The reason I keep pressing on the matter is because this topic is very important and I don’t want it to turn into another excuse for bullying.

The original post, although never backed up by any arguments by the author, is an opinion which in itself seems harmless enough, but it can incite aggression from others. I’m going to post some responses to it starting from a post that was a direct reply to me and later going chronologically.

@rosesama35​ wrote:

What rosesama says makes sense. If you find the fiction you don’t agree with, just ignore it. I know it might not be easy knowing how ubiquitous female created slash fiction is, but all of it can’t be bad. Check the tags, remember the artists you like, promote the artists you love, and if you can, create something of your own.

@yourshipsaregross replied:

They did speak about it many times, but the arguments they provide are all come down to blaming all the problems in gay fiction on women. And of course there’s the rhetoric of “it’s not straight women’s place”.

You have the right to an opinion, you have the right to publish it online, you have the right to disagree with people, but you are you to tell others what their “place” is? You think it’s problematic? Discuss it, point out why it problematic, educate people, but don’t you ever try to tell people what to do.

I simply cannot fathom the arrogance, to be honest. You are not an authority on this matter and neither are gay men. Their voice is pivotal to this discussion and their perspective is often an eye opener, which I am always glad to have encountered. But that does not grant them the rights to other people’s self expression.

By the way, I’ve also discussed this topic multiple times. Here, here, here, and here.

I honestly wish you would open your mind to different opinions. don’t block people who disagree with you. Ask them questions. Try to understand why they think the way they think. Your goal is noble, as you seem driven by a desire to stand together with gay men on this issue, but the view is based on pure emotion without reason. Not even all gay men support this stance.

Continue talking about it, continue spreading the word and educating people, but please don’t start policing others.

@bunnymund-kix-cgl-in-the-shin replies to rosesama’s last statement:

In a way, it does make sense. If you want to accomplish something, you probably shouldn’t ignore a related issue. However, this raises a question. What do people want to accomplish by writing these posts?

@mynamessloth also replies:

Again the idea of fetishizing is brought up. Could you define fetishizing?

Also, maybe the reason other members of the lgbt community are speaking up is because this issue is being taken out of proportion and is slowly turning into a crusade?

Would we be having this conversation if we were talking about straight men and lesbian porn? Probably not, as straight men don’t give a flying fuck about lgbt rights and they sure don’t see lesbians as actual people. This is the same. There are even some Christian straight girls who get off to gay men and are outright against gay marriage and lgbt rights because their faith tells them so I guess. I’ve argued with one before already.

I don’t have a problem with straight women who support lgbt rights and don’t hate lesbians and enjoy gay porn. If they can distinguish that gay men are real people, and don’t call their shipping of gay men ~sin~ then, by all means.

The problem is straight women who don’t see gay men as real people, but as their very own shipping devices, think lesbians are disgusting, and don’t support lgbt rights at all. Some of them dont even want to see gay people holding hands in real life.

Oxforddictionaries.com defines fetish as “A form of sexual desire in which gratification is linked to an abnormal degree to a particular object, item of clothing, part of the body, etc.” I doubt every woman who likes gay porn likes it to an abnormal degree, but ok. Let’s roll with your definition. 

Why is it so important that straight women who get off to gay porn supported real gay men? If they didn’t get off to gay porn and still didn’t support gay men, would that be more acceptable? Also, what kind of support should they show? Should they make an occasional post about it? 

I am not mocking you, I genuinely want to know the answers. I keep seeing this thought floating around, but no one ever specified what they meant by it. 

“They often start to not see gay men as real humans anymore, but characters that will kiss and fuck to their will, just because they like gay men.”

If they don’t see gay men as real humans, doesn’t that mean that there’s something fundamentally wrong with their opinion on gay men and it is not necessarily linked to liking gay porn? Why would a gay man care if a person who doesn’t respect him happens to read slash fanfics? Sure, it can be annoying, also ironic, but would that gay man’s life change if the ignorant person didn’t read slash fanfics?

“Would we be having this conversation if we were talking about straight men and lesbian porn?” 

People do that, though. Have this conversation, I mean. It’s just women are easier to attack, you see.

“straight men don’t give a flying fuck about lgbt rights and they sure don’t see lesbians as actual people”

Really? All straight men? Even if you mean the majority, I would disagree. I’m really saddened by this constant demonizing of straight men. Like any group of people, there are different straight men, with different personalities, tastes, views, emotions... It’s really cruel to just smash them all together and accuse of things :( even if most straight men like lesbian porn it doesn’t automatically mean they don’t see lesbians as people. Why do you claim they do? 

Also, I’ve already briefly talked about it in this post:

I’m not angry at straight men, though. Whatever their sexual fantasies may be, they deserve to have their escapism and a means of sexual enjoyment. I’m more frustrated that it is, indeed, difficult to find lesbian porn that is different from the mainstream. However, I wouldn’t be surprised if there were plenty of men who felt the same way. I don’t like generalizing and it’s important to note that straight men are not a monolith of a single consciousness, but a diverse group of people with different preferences and tastes. And I’ve seen some quality lesbian art produced by men, as well.

I am bisexual and I have no problems with straight men getting off to lesbian porn (half of which could be bisexual porn, cos, you never know a person in a porno is bisexual unless they are in a threesome).

“There are even some Christian straight girls who get off to gay men and are outright against gay marriage and lgbt rights because their faith tells them so I guess.”

Again, so what? Would the world be a better place if they didn’t like gay porn? Would they be less homophobic? Would their religion suddenly permit them to support gay people? I don’t understand why do you people bother with other people’s masturbatory lives? How does that affect anyone? 

“I don’t have a problem with straight women who support lgbt rights and don’t hate lesbians and enjoy gay porn. If they can distinguish that gay men are real people, and don’t call their shipping of gay men ~sin~ then, by all means.”

But what if you don’t know that? What if all the info you have about a person is a crappy gay porno rape fanfic she wrote? Do you assume she disrespects gay men from the content of the fanfic? 

As much as your opinion sounds reasonable, the problem in this particular discourse is that different people who argue the same points have slightly different opinions. I’ve read opinions that women shouldn’t create gay male fiction unless they also create lesbian fiction. 

Now what about the women who don’t meet your criteria? What should be done in regards to them, in your opinion? (I’m asking, because so far I got very mixed opinions on this).

“I know I didn’t answer all of your questions, but they aren’t my questions to answer.”