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Omg, yes. I love when fics tackle a more realistic approach to how their relationship might unfold. There is simply no way Steve would be chill with Billy right off the bat. I think it’s actually not easy to have them interact after the fight at the Byers and make it realistic. Not just because of Steve most likely being wary of any kind of approach by Billy after the fact. But also because Billy is not really the poster child for emotional health. I don’t think he could easily help his anger from not showing on his face. In S2 Billy seemed obsessed with Steve in a sexual way, annoyed at the same time with his own attraction but also peeved that Steve wouldn’t give him the time of day. Which shows a certain emotional immaturity on his part and internalized homophobia. I know it’s not much discussed here but I got the inkling that Steve was in a way aware of Billy’s attraction towards him. The dating advice he gives Dustin and him teasing Billy about creaming his pants are to me a dead giveaway of Steve’s awareness. He even seemed intrigued by it and not outright disgusted. But the fight stopped this all in its tracks. And I don’t really see Billy approach Steve after the fight as naturally as before. And Steve wouldn’t approach him at all out of his own volition. Lol, what I want to say is that as many awesome fics that are out there, I only ever read a handful that made sense in how they got closer again after the whole S2 debacle. It’s just not easy to pull off at all. But I love the creativity that goes into making it happen. I have to say it seems to work better if a supernatural main plot is incorporated where Steve and Billy are forced to work together and get to know each other. Billy has major anger issues which are not helped by his abusive father, so whenever I see him falling apart with guilt immediately after the fight in fics , it breaks immersion for me. He emotionally guards himself very aggressively. He’s proud and seems scared to death of humiliation. So I just don’t see him approaching Steve with any kind of visible remorse. And that would make Steve even more uncomfortable. There were so many misunderstandings during the Byers episode from both sides that them simply forgetting it without talking it out, looks weird. Steve sees Billy as a sadistic brute who attacks little kids for kicks, who has no control over his anger. He doesn’t know how he got to that point. That he’s being abused and punished for Max’s behavior. Which is not an excuse just an explanation that might open the door to forgiveness if Billy actually puts in the effort. Billy, as much as he seems infatuated with Steve until that point, actually accuses him of being a pervert in regards to his stepsister being in that house and Steve denying that fact. And honestly, it annoyed me that there was no follow up to such an accusation because it actually looks suspicious from Billy’s point of view. I hate when this stuff is not discussed in fics as it’s actually very important for them to grow closer in the first place

Holy schnitzel. Just read your tags. That’s what I’ve been thinking as well. Billy goes all out in getting Steve’s attention. He’s trying to cheer him up about Nancy and what a pretty boy he is and all that shabang. Gives him bedroom eyes while leaning in. And as soon as Steve actually looks at him, Billy becomes short with him, pats him on the shoulder like “hey bro”, fiddles nervously around with his towel and hightails it out of there. He’s so obvious. I also always liked this scene because it shows that he’s emotionally vulnerable and not just some hot super confident hunk.

They didn’t break up from this - since Steve goes to her house with flowers. So, did Steve ever find out that she hooked up with Johnathan? Or, does he just assume they’re over when he tells her “it’s okay” - but never finds out?

This always bugged me as well. I don’t think he’s ever made aware that Nancy actually already physically hooked up with Jonathan when Steve gives her this self deprecating break up speech about how he’s a bad boyfriend. Which makes me dislike Nancy even more. She keeps quiet, never even gives a “it’s also my fault” answer. Just let’s Steve shoulder the full blame. And also Jonathan just remains quiet during all of it. They deserve each other 😑

Agreed. Will is the person who knows Hannibal best at this point in S3. They see each other. He knew what Hannibal insinuated about Molly and her son. It’s like he wanted for Hannibal to do something to proof his love for him. He’s not the same person he was in S1. We see him slowly descending into becoming someone else throughout the seasons, he starts to need Hannibal but he’s doesn’t know how much the latter needs him, so he remains on edge and more vulnerable. It’s almost like him realizing that Hannibal loves him gives him self confidence with the knowledge that he has a certain edge over the relationship with Hannibal. Making it more „equal“. For example, all those manipulations in S1, that ended up in Will being framed would lead him to believe that it’s all just to amuse Hannibal. Only later understanding that Hannibal made himself quite vulnerable with all his machinations just to bring Will’s metamorphosis along and would choose him and only need him. Or all the people Will bonded with that Hannibal got rid off, either by murder or manipulation. And I would argue that Will revels in the feelings Hannibal has for him. He’s quite smug when he asked Hannibal for help with the red dragon. His „please“ was an obviously played manipulation which Hannibal sees through and calls him a cunning boy. And it always struck me as odd for Will to so „adamantly“ refusing Hannibal time and time again, just to finally bounce and give in after Hannibal manipulated Dollarhyde to try and kill Molly and her child. For normal people that would be it for the relationship. But for Will it’s almost like the proof he needs from Hannibal to know that he’s still the only one for him. Will is like the Hannibal from S1 now. He has on this person suit, which hides his true self from the people around him and makes it possible for him to manipulate them. This is messed up but I think, subconsciously, Will knew exactly what he was doing in marrying a woman with a child. It’s like he was mocking Hannibal and his previous attempts to make them and Abigail a family. It’s like he’s trying to make Hannibal jealous. To show him that he can live without him, even though he can’t, just to be vindictive and spiteful. So Molly and kid were mere tools in his dance with the devil. And he became a „devil“ himself. He’s not some „innocent virgin“ anymore that got seduced to the dark side. He’s a willing participant. And that’s the „potential“ Hannibal has seen in him from the beginning, he only didn’t know he would get as emotionally entangled in Will. So the puppeteer became the puppet in his own play, and that, I have to admit, is extremely satisfying to me. It’s also funny how Freddy Lounce was always right in her assumptions about everything.

I'm sure someone's posted this already but is Neil Hargrove gonna start hitting Max and Susan now that Billy is dead?

Lol. I discussed this too death but I have to chime in once again 😅. Logically Neil wouldn’t just stop being physically abusive just because his „whipping boy“ is dead. We also came to know, from the flashbacks in S3 that Neil has no qualms to put his hands on a woman. The signs in S2 were already there in how Max’s mom turns away from witnessing the abuse Neil bestows on Billy. Her meak behavior hints at that he’s „dominant“ with her as well. In what form, we can only speculate. With Billy gone and Max being a firecracker, she would undoubtedly clash with Neil’s need for control. The question now is if the Duffers would address this. Which I believe they won’t as they never resolved this or really addressed the abuse against Billy. But even if the Duffers suddenly focus on Neil being an abuser, it would cheapen the experience for me, because it was ignored when Billy got the brunt. So if they suddenly address this just because Max is being abused, I don’t know how I would feel about this. Tbh, they missed the point to really get into this. If they delve into the abuse that Max would logically suffer from a man like Neil, with everyone getting involved and him getting his recompense finally, would leave a bad taste in my mouth. It would send the message that it was ok for Billy to be abused his whole life because he’s a boy. Like he deserved it because he couldn’t handle the „discipline“ and turned his anger on other people. Many people hate Billy because they always have this picture in their heads of the „meak abuse victim“ who „rises“ above their upbringing and treatment and acts all nice. Forgetting that a lot of abuse victims who act nice and subdued do so not despite the abuse but because of it. So seeing Billy turning his helplessness into anger he unleashes on innocent bystanders (which many abuse victims do), makes the consequences of abuse tangible and this makes a lot of people uncomfortable. Especially because he is male and despite being 17, looks like someone who’s in their 20‘s, so many don’t feel empathy for his situation. Also because the narrative never delves into the abusive Hargrove household and this storyline with Neil being an abuser is solely part of Billy’s arc. It’s completely separated from Max‘s storyline with Billy, and that doesn’t make sense. If you are already abused for years and learn to walk on eggshells, being made responsible for the actions of someone else who doesn’t get abused, pulls the rug right under your feet even more. Which a lot of abusers do with the people in their „care“. To keep their „power“ the abuser makes sure that no one unites and bonds against them. And that’s what Neil did with Billy and Max. Under the guise of „wanting them to act like siblings, he makes it actually impossible for them to bond because of Billy being punished for Max’s actions. She doesn’t get abused and only sees Billy as this dominating prick who wants to ruin her fun, not understanding that he does all this just so he won’t get abused even further. Billy is not some innocent flower, and what he does is terrible, but he’s also not some Brenner like villain who’s evil just because it’s fun or for his own gain. It’s actually a really sad circumstance and that it wasn’t resolved with Billy is just unpalatable to me. So yes, with Billy gone, Max would loose her buffer in form of Billy, and she would get all of Neil’s „attention“.

Dear harringrove fandom, I have a problem and I don't know how to feel about it. I hate it when I go to read a fic and it is clearly bottom Steve and they feminize him by calling him a brat or describe his mannerisms as feminine and they dont tag it that way. I dont not like bottom Steve and I am entitled to that opinion. I do not like top Billy and I filter my fics that way. I have a problem when I am reading a fic and it has all of the above features and it is not tagged as such. I know we all have the saying "dont like it then dont read it." But how can I do that when the fics are not properly tagged? Also I find that there are alot of harringrove fics that have Steve and Billy in a toxic relationship and it is not tagged as such and I am sorry but as a person who has been jn a toxic relationship it is triggering to me. So what do I do? If I am honest I feel like I should just leave the fandom. As much as I love harringrove I can't stand how Steve is written in most fics. So what should I do? Please help.

I think the problem often times regarding some writers not tagging their fics as “toxic relationship” is that they might not get that what they write is a toxic relationship. Or because it’s assumed with how their dynamic was in S2 that everybody should know that it will handle some toxicity regarding Billy’s behavior towards Steve? I don’t know but the fics that really focus on the possible “toxic relationship” angle mostly tag it like it as well. It would be certainly courteous if most writers would tag who the bottom and top is. Lol, I’m the opposite, I love me some bottom Steve but unfortunately this comes with its own set of problems where Steve is transformed into a chick with a dick a lot of times. Which is mightily annoying and unpalatable to me. The same with certain bottom Billy fics as well, where he is portrayed sometimes (often) as some dick hungry slut. I don’t know why but I assume that the fandom mostly consists of heterosexual females, and you will see the “heteronormative” stereotypes creep in more often than not. Whoever bottoms will act all girly, whoever tops will act like the macho man. It doesn’t happen all the time but you can mostly tell who will be taking it up the ass in a fic by the ooc behavior. I don’t know but they both don’t act girly in canon, well Steve is more softish but that doesn’t make him a girl. Or just because Billy is brutish doesn’t mean he wouldn’t bottom. It’s a preference after all. What you could do is ask for fic recommendation regarding your preferences. Believe me, even “bottom Steve” fans have their own gripes with finding fics where he’s not acting like a girl just because he takes it up the ass.

Random repost. @lovebillyhargrove for your viewing pleasure 😉

More is always welcome 😆. I love how your mind works and your understanding of psychological nuance. Yes, Neil is the only male role model he knows, so of course he molds himself after Neil. But you notice Billy always being a little off in actually really emulating all that Neil is. This is actually really clever that you noticed Billy being softer towards Steve correlates with water and this with positive memories of his mother. I didn’t think about this before. It’s very symbolic to. There always seems to be a conflict within Billy in how he should behave. Of course being exposed to Neil for years without a softening influence would leave its marks in how he represents himself. But this “strong macho facade” is a little ill fitting at times. Like when he tells Max not to wear a Halloween costum to school so she won’t embarrass herself in her new school. If he wouldn’t care at all, he would have not said anything at all. Or his rather soft handling of Steve. And also, this might be a little controversial but the consensus of Billy being an unquestionable racist doesn’t really fit too well imo. The first time he sees Lucas is when Max is having an argument with him and she’s extremely upset. Billy watches from the sidelines and then asks her what this was about. She’s retreating into her shell and says it’s nothing. He gets angry and then says she shouldn’t get close to people like him. Of course we can jump to the conclusion that him saying this has everything to do with Lucas being black. But it’s too ambiguous. The first hint is when we actually witness the dynamic between Billy and Neil. Neil makes Billy responsible for Max’s actions. He will be punished physically for her misbehavior. We also learn that Neil is homophobic and this more often than not correlates with a person also being racist. Billy is send after her like a bloodhound. So he comes across Max in a strange house with strange boys and Steve. Just imagining what Neil would have to say to such a scenario must be frightening to Billy. And this is where actually Billy’s mother plays a big role. He grew up seeing his mother being slapped around. He knows the signs of an abuse victim. And I think seeing Max be so subdued after her argument with Lucas and claiming everything is fine must have triggered some memories of his mother excusing Neil’s behavior as well. Also, his mother left him with their abuser and lied to him about taking him away with her. And there are also some scenes where Billy makes it clear that he hates being lied to. So, after being threatened with punishment and thrown out to procure Max, he drives around town and speaks to strangers in order to find out where Max is. He’s already on edge that night. He manipulates Karen to get info on Max. And I think witnessing Karen, a married woman with kids being all flirty and acting like she’s ready to drop her panties any moment must have reminded him of Neil’s cheating accusations against his mother. Billy doesn’t know if it’s true or not, but with his mother leaving him behind and giving him false hope in rescuing him, why wouldn’t he believe she actually went off with some other guy? She might have actually done it as she never went out of her way to get custody of him. And it’s odd because mothers at that time almost automatically got custody of their children. That she didn’t hints at that she didn’t really want to. Why? Because she wanted to be free and to get Neil off her back, she sacrificed her kid? Or because her new beau didn’t want the shackles of having a new kid? Who knows but it looks like she didn’t try very hard. So this is another conflict within Billy. It’s not just between Neil’s raising methods and his mother’s trying to instill positive traits into him. It’s also the conflict with the mother herself giving such contradicting feedback in her behavior. On one side she’s kind and nice to Billy and instills morals into him. On the other hand you have a woman who cowardly ran away and left her son to the wolfes….

So even then he’s in conflict about if his mother’s morals are actually worth emulating, even though it creeps up from time to time. And we see her past behavior affecting his opinion on women in general. He’s cold and aloof with them. Like that Highschool girl he drove away with. He calls them bitches and cows behind their backs and is just really hateful towards them. He doesn’t trust them and it becomes apparent that meeting Karen was the second strike of the night, which is made obvious by his falling expression when he leaves. The third strike is Steve lying, like his mother. The fourth strike is seeing Lucas there to, the boy who made Max upset and unjustifiably reminds him of his mother’s dynamic with Neil. And also because he fears repercussions from Neil if he finds out. So it’s also self preservation that drives him. And the fifth strike is Steve “rejecting” him like his mother has. So to me every action circles back to his broken relationship with his parents. I also agree that Billy has mother issues which positively manifests in him being drawn to Steve. Not just because of Steve’s inner softness and kindness but also because of seeing him trying to protect those kids against him. Something his mother did partly but then bounced when it really counted. Billy knows that Steve has no chance against him in a physical fight but he becomes witness to Steve trying it anyway. And that must have an impact on him. I’d argue it’s something that actually strengthens Billy’s desperation to have him. It also must leave an impact on him to realize that Billy turned into Neil in this scenario. In how Steve encompasses mostly positive traits being tied to his mother and what a mother should be, Karen encompasses the most negative traits Billy links to his mother. Like threatening her own family dynamic with her being open to flirtation in her own house and possible future cheating. And on the other side he has Steve who is actually the victim of being cheated on but remaining passive. He also knows that Nancy is Karen’s daughter, so he sees two related women doing, or about to do the same. Which just feeds his negative feelings towards women. Especially with his obsession towards Steve. And you are right. Billy doesn’t know how to handle Steve, due to his social maladjustment. And also Steve remaining passive as well. He doesn’t give Billy an in to antagonize him to finally get his attention. Which must be frustrating to Billy. So we see him sending mixed signals to Steve all the time. On one hand it’s this almost benign desire to dominate him, with stares, close physical contact and teasing. Yet no insults that really would make Steve hate him. He could have really stuck the knife in by insulting his intelligence or making fun of Nancy cheating on him. But for some reason he never crosses that line. On the other hand you see him trying to be helpful in basketball, cheering him up under the shower and complimenting his looks. So of course Steve is confused. And I’d argue that Billy is confused as well.

Random repost. @lovebillyhargrove for your viewing pleasure 😉

More is always welcome 😆. I love how your mind works and your understanding of psychological nuance. Yes, Neil is the only male role model he knows, so of course he molds himself after Neil. But you notice Billy always being a little off in actually really emulating all that Neil is. This is actually really clever that you noticed Billy being softer towards Steve correlates with water and this with positive memories of his mother. I didn’t think about this before. It’s very symbolic to. There always seems to be a conflict within Billy in how he should behave. Of course being exposed to Neil for years without a softening influence would leave its marks in how he represents himself. But this “strong macho facade” is a little ill fitting at times. Like when he tells Max not to wear a Halloween costum to school so she won’t embarrass herself in her new school. If he wouldn’t care at all, he would have not said anything at all. Or his rather soft handling of Steve. And also, this might be a little controversial but the consensus of Billy being an unquestionable racist doesn’t really fit too well imo. The first time he sees Lucas is when Max is having an argument with him and she’s extremely upset. Billy watches from the sidelines and then asks her what this was about. She’s retreating into her shell and says it’s nothing. He gets angry and then says she shouldn’t get close to people like him. Of course we can jump to the conclusion that him saying this has everything to do with Lucas being black. But it’s too ambiguous. The first hint is when we actually witness the dynamic between Billy and Neil. Neil makes Billy responsible for Max’s actions. He will be punished physically for her misbehavior. We also learn that Neil is homophobic and this more often than not correlates with a person also being racist. Billy is send after her like a bloodhound. So he comes across Max in a strange house with strange boys and Steve. Just imagining what Neil would have to say to such a scenario must be frightening to Billy. And this is where actually Billy’s mother plays a big role. He grew up seeing his mother being slapped around. He knows the signs of an abuse victim. And I think seeing Max be so subdued after her argument with Lucas and claiming everything is fine must have triggered some memories of his mother excusing Neil’s behavior as well. Also, his mother left him with their abuser and lied to him about taking him away with her. And there are also some scenes where Billy makes it clear that he hates being lied to. So, after being threatened with punishment and thrown out to procure Max, he drives around town and speaks to strangers in order to find out where Max is. He’s already on edge that night. He manipulates Karen to get info on Max. And I think witnessing Karen, a married woman with kids being all flirty and acting like she’s ready to drop her panties any moment must have reminded him of Neil’s cheating accusations against his mother. Billy doesn’t know if it’s true or not, but with his mother leaving him behind and giving him false hope in rescuing him, why wouldn’t he believe she actually went off with some other guy? She might have actually done it as she never went out of her way to get custody of him. And it’s odd because mothers at that time almost automatically got custody of their children. That she didn’t hints at that she didn’t really want to. Why? Because she wanted to be free and to get Neil off her back, she sacrificed her kid? Or because her new beau didn’t want the shackles of having a new kid? Who knows but it looks like she didn’t try very hard. So this is another conflict within Billy. It’s not just between Neil’s raising methods and his mother’s trying to instill positive traits into him. It’s also the conflict with the mother herself giving such contradicting feedback in her behavior. On one side she’s kind and nice to Billy and instills morals into him. On the other hand you have a woman who cowardly ran away and left her son to the wolfes....

Random repost. @lovebillyhargrove for your viewing pleasure 😉

Ok, Neil is homophobic, he used the F word and all but why did Dacre decided to say it like that? It gives the impression that Billy *is* gay. Dacre, baby what are you up to????? 🧐🧐🧐🧐🧐

Just reposting this to make you aware again of Dacre being a troll 😂 😑

Lol. I’ve had an idea floating around in my brain for awhile about Italian Steve. What about a family reunion where all his relatives from his moms side gather in Hawkins. And what if they were all Mafiosi. Lol. And Steve’s favorite uncle some Don Corleone kind of guy from “the godfather”. Steve showing them around Hawkins and talks in Italian non stop. And they actually want to “recruit” Steve into the family business. I’d love to see the reactions of everyone. Especially Billy. Oh and my HC for Tommy is that he’s actually getting suspicious about Billie’s interest in Steve. Chester hc is that Tommy has a crush on Steve so all those “bullying” attempts that Billy shows towards Steve, would have Tommy majorly worried about Billie’s real intentions.