Togetherness

Honestly, I think it's cruel. What a cruel thing to do in a space that's inherently full of people with intellectual disabilities, and people who struggle to get their intentions across clearly and panic at being misunderstood. I think that's something so many of us experience here, especially given how much of this community is built around CPTSD.

I think a religious belief and a social belief are different things, mate. so I wouldn't really compare the two, as they are different types of beliefs. you can't compare the belief that something like God exists (a mythological/supernatural being) with the belief that a kind of system exists (literally plural people, real people interpreting their own reality through the lens of plurality). especially with the ammount of evidence there is that it exists (I'm not talking about medical evidence, as medicine doesn't study non-medical experiences, which is basically what endogenic plurality and non-traumagenic plurality is).

and not believing in something doesn't mean you can't respect it. religion is a way to see this as an example, since you brought it up. the fact that some people believe that God exists doesn't mean it can scientifically exist. but mentally, spiritually, religiously, it exists. the fact that science can't prove something can exist doesn't mean it doesn't exist in other ways. yes, God doesn't exist in the eyes of science. but in the eyes of religion, it exists.

for instance, I have a (very) Christian friend while I'm an atheist. every time he talks about religion I do my very best to listen and to respect his ideologies, while acknowledging to myself that I (personally) don't believe in that. but that doesn't mean I will tell my friend "you're wrong and delusional, God can't exist from scientific or medical evidence, so it doesn't exist". I disagree with him in that, but I shut up, listen, and keep my opinions to myself.

Starseeds are anti-semitic/Nazis (https://www.philosophyforlife.org/blog/starseeds-nazis-in-space) so people are using your inclusion of starseeds as an excuse to exclude endogenic systems from the definition of alterhuman because “endos are just as harmful as starseeds”.

I just wanted to know your thoughts on this, not tryna accuse you of anything (/genuine). Sorry to pull you into this whole syscourse stuff!

Heya! Thanks for the ask! I really appreciate you reaching out.

Re: Starseeds: The term alterhuman was coined... ten? years ago now? And at the time, while I'm sure some circles were aware of potential issues with the concept of starseeds as you share, at the time the term was something used a bit more broadly, especially by divine and extraterrestrial identified individuals. I was not part of the starseed community, but I followed a lot of those who identified with the term on social media/especially Tumblr, as well as kept up with posts by self-identified (at the time) starseeds on various otherkin forums. I don't think most of those folks had an understanding of those roots of the term and instead were using it to describe a type of identity that we have other words for today.

I do think at the time I was on the fence a bit about it because I didn't have much info about it, but from the experiences I had it was describing something else. Perhaps a better way to phrase it now is "those with identities related to divinity or extraterrestrials."

I'm not the arbiter of what is or isn't alterhuman, but the idea of the term was not "here's a bunch of groups, by name, who are allowed", and more "hey I noticed a lot of groups of those with overlapping identities are fighting each other over stupid shit even though a lot of what they say and feel seem to be really similar, I wish there was some term that people could use as an umbrella to refer to their shared experiences rather than get mad at each other over precise terminology". I don't think that antisemitism is very conducive to understanding each other and our similarities and meaningful differences, so, if I were to remake the original post today, I would not include a concept like that. The original post was admittedly a frustrated reaction to infighting and I didn't, like, vet it with anyone else because I was annoyed and pretty much immediately after disappeared to go do college classes and came back a year later really confused to hear that people had actually taken to it.

That said... while I try to avoid syscourse here, I am not opposed to being clear when I have to be: the entire point of "alterhuman" is to have a term to unite those with similar experiences which fall outside of the socially accepted concept of humanity. Endogenic exclusion is inherently opposite to that idea. I've in many places and many ways gone on and on about my opinion on syscourse, but - while I understand the pain and frustration of disordered systems (we have DID, and are traumagenic, in case anyone is unaware,) there is no universe where "cruelty against Jews" is the same as "having a similar experience to a psychological disorder but with different symptoms".

But if there is one thing I have learned in all the years since the term alterhuman was created, it's this: while you can give others endless tools to connect and understand each other and their experiences, both similar and disparate, no terminology will ever reach the people who want to draw a line between themselves and others. "Endogenic" and "Traumagenic" exist because the terms that existed beforehand were not considered appropriate, and so "better" terms were created to help the community get along. "Alterhuman" was created because otherkin and therians and plurals and fictionkin etc etc were all fighting each other over terminology. Back then I barely ever saw anti-endo sentiments - I'm sure they existed, but not nearly like they do now. I'm not surprised people are trying to use starseeds being listed in the alterhuman coining post that I wrote in a frustrated huff listing any communities I could think of off the top of my head as I went to close tumblr for the night and go do my homework as a way to excise people - that sort of aggressive "us vs them"-ism was bound to crop up anyways.

I suppose, to those who are using the inclusion of starseeds to be exclusionary, maybe consider the following discussion questions:

What was the social landscape of what we now call the alterhuman community like at the time of the post's publishing?

What do you think the author's intention was when listing a wide range of communities and ideas, and do you think that the list was meant to be exhaustive, complete, or otherwise?

Why might a 19 year old college student not be aware of the intricacies of a till-then non-unified collection of identities?

Do you think my friends being scared of experiencing violence when existing in public while visibly Jewish is equivocal to someone saying they think they have more than one person in their head even though a doctor didn't give them the OK to think that?

Actually forget all the other discussion questions and answer the last one. If you answer wrong, I will become the evil alter.

- Ableist towards those with psychotic experiences in trying to disprove endos, e.g. misusing language around psychosis in order for it to fit their narrative - harming those with experiences of psychosis, including traumagenic systems

- Creating resources and safe spaces saying "everyone with a CDD is welcome, just no endogenic systems" and then banning traumagenic systems who support endos - lying about safe spaces for trauma survivors

- Pushing for somebody to uncover trauma that they might not have or might not be ready to uncover - further traumatising/creating trauma for some

- Going into endo spaces, then claiming those spaces were made for traumagenic systems only - pushing people out of spaces made for them

- Specific, although varying, expectations around how a system should and shouldn't function, often claiming that various CDD experiences aren't real - fakeclaiming CDDs

- Specific expectations around how somebody's trauma should affect them and how it should present, and what that trauma needs to be - fakeclaiming trauma

- Fakeclaiming traumagenic systems if they support endogenic systems - fakeclaiming CDDs and trauma

- Fakeclaiming those with a CDD for having experiences that are 'too similar' to endogenic systems, and/or for supporting endogenic systems - fakeclaiming CDDs

- Fakeclaiming the trauma of survivors who identify themselves as endogenic systems - fakeclaiming trauma

- Racism ( @theharbingerofxhaos can elaborate better than we can, she's a Puerto Rican mixed origins DID system.

On a more personal side, talking more about common but specific individuals:

- Fakeclaiming our diagnosis because we support endos

- Fakeclaiming our trauma because we support endos

- Fakeclaiming other disabilities we have because we support endos

- e.g. "no REAL system would ever support endos so you're lying"

- Called many different slurs

- Called transphobic for sharing our experiences as a trans person

- Called ableist for sharing our experiences as a disabled person

- Told we're making everything up/we're hallucinating/have false memories

- Insisting on calling systems 'multiple personalities'

- Claiming some experiences we have aren't real, e.g. system reset/collapse

- Claiming that DID requires constant blackout amnesia, and anyone without blackout amnesia only has OSDD, which affected our recovery for a while

- Claiming that people have to be suffering horribly, constantly, if they have a CDD

- Claiming alters aren't real and/or alters shouldn't ever be separate from each other at all

- Claiming final fusion is the only treatment

- Various types of harassment, but you have that mentioned in the tags :P

- fakeclaiming trauma, or saying that the trauma a system went through wasn't "bad enough" to form a system

- fakeclaiming systems if they dare to show positive emotions/opinions about their own plurality (even traumagenic and cdd systems!)

- constantly harassing endogenic systems

- perpetuating abuse (yes, abuse) towards non-traumagenic systems through aggressive language, threats, and using tags such as 'endos aren't real' and 'endos are ableist'

- constantly using ableist language towards plural people (I've seen the usage of the r slur towards endogenic systems)

- targeted harassment, entering in safe spaces just to mock and harass

- literally the whole existence of r/systemscringe

Back then, there were a lot of sysmeds claiming endogenic systems were scientifically impossible. They would regularly claim that this was backed by science. To an extent, this still exists.

But what has happened since has been a shift in the culture. Sysmeds have now been put firmly on the defense.

Most importantly, what I don't see anymore is endogenic systems believing them.

When I got to tumblr, I feel like a lot of the pro-endo systems here were not informed of scientific literature that supported them. Oftentimes, they would concede on points they didn't have to simply because they didn't know better. When sysmeds would say the psychiatric community was on their side, pro-endos would rollover. They would argue against the psychiatrists because they were misled about what these psychiatrists were actually saying.

One of my main goals was changing this. I wanted to show the endogenic community that actually, there is a lot of backing in psychology for the existence of non-traumagenic multiplicity in a variety of forms.

I do not want to take full credit for this. Most of the sources I started with were already compiled by r/tulpas. Many more were sent to me later. Guardians' document later proved an incredible resource for compiling them, surpassing my own studies and research page. Cambrian was an incredibly useful tool for this, especially with arranging the AMA on r/tulpas. SysmedsAreSexist provided the Ross emails. There are so many people I could name who helped shift the culture.

What I see now in syscourse is what I call a late stage system medicalism.

Everyone with any scientific awareness or legitimate interest in having discussions has already changed sides to be pro-endo or endo-neutral.

The late stage system medicalists bunker down in echo chambers to try to preserve their hate group. They all have strict dnis they enforce to keep anyone who disagrees with them from interacting.

And they have largely rejected psychiatrists and the psychologists after being presented with countless sources of those psychologists supporting endogenic systems. This includes psychiatrists like Dr. Eric Yarbrough who they dismiss for just being an lgbtq psychiatrist, to dissociative experts like Dr Colin Ross who has contributed more to the field of complex dissociative disorders than perhaps any other doctor in history.

Most telling in that was the willingness to use sources from the False Memory Syndrome Foundation and the Grey Faction, two extremely ableist organizations that largely believe dissociative identity disorder is sociogenic, both of which have done immense damage to trauma survivors and doctors who treat trauma survivors alike.

Every facade of having a scientific backing for the sysmed position has been systematically whittled away, revealing sysmeds to be nothing but a hate group.

What remains of sysmeds is cowardly uneducated, anti-intellectual, anti-science, and is so transparently driven by nothing but bigotry.

If syscourse (and by extension people posting things on the internet that are not targeted at you) triggers you then you should, like, block the tags and people's blogs and stuff.

You don't get to shut people up just because you don't agree with them or they disturb you. That'll just lead you to fascism.

Question for my fellow POC plurals… why are so many of us anti-endo? Also PLEASE do not shit on each other!!

I was personally very traumatized by an anti-endo because of my lack of access to medical care TO GET any form of diagnosis + I was being abused + etc. I am an avid learner on different areas of mental health, however I am very critical of DSM. And for me, wondering about origins genuinely makes me spiral and want to combust and for me, I don’t care how you GOT HERE, how it started, what you deal with now, is what you deal with now. And just the endless comparing myself to the DSM criteria made me traumatize myself more BECAUSE of the extreme denial.

And I believe the human brain is very complicated in many many ways, and that the area of plurality is very very vast. Knowing that not all systems are traumagen genuinely brings me relief and knowing some plurals are not disordered. Whether they had to work to get there or it has just been like that, gives me hope. And overall it is very interesting.

I’m not coming for any of us who don’t agree. It is just… sad because I genuinely really want to make MORE FRIENDS WITH US!!!! the POCs!!! Like we also tend to have way better politics… UGH looks ultra side eye at this White system that is a Zionist I met the other day. sigh. The only POC only system server I found was genuinely very nice but they are anti-endo so I skidaddled eventually.

Idk :( fellow POC systems find me pls!! orz

Also it probably depends on where you are. I see a fairly high amount of POC systems (and others who could probably be considered plural in some form or fashion) but that's because I'm also in the alterhuman community, where you're more likely to find pro-endos generally. I also find that when I do encounter a POC who is plural, they often tend to be on the outskirts of a community somewhere instead of fitting in, probably due to the plurality (or racism)? So we might not be center stage and talking all the time, but we're there.

And u are so right we are kind of like on the outskirts AS WELL. oof. Ooooof. WEHH. I LOVE U ALL BIPOC SYSTEMS I.

Mm im not too familiar with alterhumanity! GUH I rolls around. And I’m also pretty quite but. HERE in general. I don’t usually post my yapping or opinions! So. I hear youuu.

And omg I would genuinely super duper love love to meet even more Black pluralssss! I’m non-Black poc myself but aaaa LOVE MY SIBLINGS. I hear you on this end, and I think we two are having some very different experiences. And I am super glad for it! I also know of a lot of Black systems having to HIDE being Black on the internet for a variety of reasons.. to this end I also won’t say I met much pocs of the same background as me either…

And even for a lot of the POC systems I met who ARE anti-endo… I can. Kind of get it in some sense, and it is usually not from a malicious place in the heart.

Well alterhumanity is a term referring to any experience or identity that diverges from what is typically considered human. It can include plurality (as plurality is often stigmatized and considered other, in the case of spiritual plurals). It's pro-endo by nature so that's why you tend to see a lot of pro-endos there, and the community tries to be welcoming and inclusive of all. The prominent POC plurals I know of there include @/liondrakes, @/cosmicstrays and @/dinocanid, among others. There's also POC only discords and communities there, like this one:

So that's why I don't see it as much in my circles, because I hang around an inherently pro-endo crowd.

Also I've noticed because of the racism coming from white people (because we live in a racist society and it's never fully possible to avoid it) POC in the alterhuman community often move out to make their own spaces, so that's why you see more of it there than in here. (Or at least from what I've seen, plurals often decry racism but don't seem to split off into their own groups as much?) But that's why I say you're more likely to see pro-endo POC groups in the alterhuman community.

And yeah, I've noticed that just being POC (and/or sometimes being descended from immigrants) gives some of us a different view on things? Like even outside of being endogenic, it's very hard for us to medicalize things when physiologically medicine doesn't really work for us (not saying it can't be useful, but sometimes we have to go our own way and do our own thing because following the medical advice will absolutely hurt us or even kill us), which doesn't seem to be true for other systems.

Thank you again for the effort and the recommendations for folks to follow, WEHHH. CRIES.

Question for my fellow POC plurals… why are so many of us anti-endo? Also PLEASE do not shit on each other!!

I was personally very traumatized by an anti-endo because of my lack of access to medical care TO GET any form of diagnosis + I was being abused + etc. I am an avid learner on different areas of mental health, however I am very critical of DSM. And for me, wondering about origins genuinely makes me spiral and want to combust and for me, I don’t care how you GOT HERE, how it started, what you deal with now, is what you deal with now. And just the endless comparing myself to the DSM criteria made me traumatize myself more BECAUSE of the extreme denial.

And I believe the human brain is very complicated in many many ways, and that the area of plurality is very very vast. Knowing that not all systems are traumagen genuinely brings me relief and knowing some plurals are not disordered. Whether they had to work to get there or it has just been like that, gives me hope. And overall it is very interesting.

I’m not coming for any of us who don’t agree. It is just… sad because I genuinely really want to make MORE FRIENDS WITH US!!!! the POCs!!! Like we also tend to have way better politics… UGH looks ultra side eye at this White system that is a Zionist I met the other day. sigh. The only POC only system server I found was genuinely very nice but they are anti-endo so I skidaddled eventually.

Idk :( fellow POC systems find me pls!! orz

Also it probably depends on where you are. I see a fairly high amount of POC systems (and others who could probably be considered plural in some form or fashion) but that's because I'm also in the alterhuman community, where you're more likely to find pro-endos generally. I also find that when I do encounter a POC who is plural, they often tend to be on the outskirts of a community somewhere instead of fitting in, probably due to the plurality (or racism)? So we might not be center stage and talking all the time, but we're there.

And u are so right we are kind of like on the outskirts AS WELL. oof. Ooooof. WEHH. I LOVE U ALL BIPOC SYSTEMS I.

Mm im not too familiar with alterhumanity! GUH I rolls around. And I’m also pretty quite but. HERE in general. I don’t usually post my yapping or opinions! So. I hear youuu.

And omg I would genuinely super duper love love to meet even more Black pluralssss! I’m non-Black poc myself but aaaa LOVE MY SIBLINGS. I hear you on this end, and I think we two are having some very different experiences. And I am super glad for it! I also know of a lot of Black systems having to HIDE being Black on the internet for a variety of reasons.. to this end I also won’t say I met much pocs of the same background as me either…

And even for a lot of the POC systems I met who ARE anti-endo… I can. Kind of get it in some sense, and it is usually not from a malicious place in the heart.

Well alterhumanity is a term referring to any experience or identity that diverges from what is typically considered human. It can include plurality (as plurality is often stigmatized and considered other, in the case of spiritual plurals). It's pro-endo by nature so that's why you tend to see a lot of pro-endos there, and the community tries to be welcoming and inclusive of all. The prominent POC plurals I know of there include @/liondrakes, @/cosmicstrays and @/dinocanid, among others. There's also POC only discords and communities there, like this one:

So that's why I don't see it as much in my circles, because I hang around an inherently pro-endo crowd.

Also I've noticed because of the racism coming from white people (because we live in a racist society and it's never fully possible to avoid it) POC in the alterhuman community often move out to make their own spaces, so that's why you see more of it there than in here. (Or at least from what I've seen, plurals often decry racism but don't seem to split off into their own groups as much?) But that's why I say you're more likely to see pro-endo POC groups in the alterhuman community.

And yeah, I've noticed that just being POC (and/or sometimes being descended from immigrants) gives some of us a different view on things? Like even outside of being endogenic, it's very hard for us to medicalize things when physiologically medicine doesn't really work for us (not saying it can't be useful, but sometimes we have to go our own way and do our own thing because following the medical advice will absolutely hurt us or even kill us), which doesn't seem to be true for other systems.

Question for my fellow POC plurals… why are so many of us anti-endo? Also PLEASE do not shit on each other!!

I was personally very traumatized by an anti-endo because of my lack of access to medical care TO GET any form of diagnosis + I was being abused + etc. I am an avid learner on different areas of mental health, however I am very critical of DSM. And for me, wondering about origins genuinely makes me spiral and want to combust and for me, I don’t care how you GOT HERE, how it started, what you deal with now, is what you deal with now. And just the endless comparing myself to the DSM criteria made me traumatize myself more BECAUSE of the extreme denial.

And I believe the human brain is very complicated in many many ways, and that the area of plurality is very very vast. Knowing that not all systems are traumagen genuinely brings me relief and knowing some plurals are not disordered. Whether they had to work to get there or it has just been like that, gives me hope. And overall it is very interesting.

I’m not coming for any of us who don’t agree. It is just… sad because I genuinely really want to make MORE FRIENDS WITH US!!!! the POCs!!! Like we also tend to have way better politics… UGH looks ultra side eye at this White system that is a Zionist I met the other day. sigh. The only POC only system server I found was genuinely very nice but they are anti-endo so I skidaddled eventually.

Idk :( fellow POC systems find me pls!! orz

Also it probably depends on where you are. I see a fairly high amount of POC systems (and others who could probably be considered plural in some form or fashion) but that's because I'm also in the alterhuman community, where you're more likely to find pro-endos generally. I also find that when I do encounter a POC who is plural, they often tend to be on the outskirts of a community somewhere instead of fitting in, probably due to the plurality (or racism)? So we might not be center stage and talking all the time, but we're there.