I think one of the funniest things about MLB fandom is that for months, this whole season basically, they cried about Adrienette break-up saying Adrien will end things with Marinette when he finds out the truth, like, this fandom genuinely expected someone as selfish self centered and abusive as Marinette to actually let Adrien have this one thing, finally make a decision for himself, prioritizing himself and standing up for himself lmaooo
That girl would never! Like the coward she is, she kept the lie and ran away because "I feel bad" (only her feelings matter) and basically punished Adrien for her own lies and didn't allow him any agency once again.
Adrien, run while you can, you don't know it yet but you dodged a bullet, they will put you back with this manipulative abuser, buddy
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No, not even if you're in [insert part of fandom].
So we all know that mlb has some seriously wonky morals and an even worse ability to communicate their intended story to the audience.
See for example, the ending of s5 where the writers said in an interview that Marinette won by getting Gabriel to change his mind about the wish he was making. Or s4, where people had a lot of reasons to assume that Marinette's actions were motivated by some kind of Chat Blanc trauma, but it turns out the only reason they ever intended was that Marinette was simply too stressed by her role as the guardian.
There's definitely a similar kind of disconnect in terms of the s6 big lie plot. Now that Nemesis aired, I feel like we have enough I can decipher what the writers intend the story to be. And that, as can be expected at this point, it's nothing like what any side of the fandom thinks the story is.
The premise
After the final battle with Monarch, our heroine was faced with a decision about what to do with the knowledge that the father of the love of her life was actually the supervillain she'd been fighting all along. She can either tell the truth to the whole world, or she can lie.
She decides to do something bad for the sake of Adrien's happiness. In s6 we see how much the decision is burdening her and causing her emotional turmoil. However, she's unwilling to stop because she doesn't want to hurt Adrien.
That's the basics of the plotline that basically everyone agree on, although I'm betting there are a lot of people reading this who want to add this or that nuance to several parts of that description.
It's exactly that type of nuance where the disconnection happen. So I'm going to go over several parts of this premise and try to figure out what the show thinks about it.
(Note that this isn't an invitation to argue about what the plot actually is. I'm keeping my own opinion out of this too. My goal here is to figure out what the show thinks the story is.)
Why is the big lie bad?
There are a few times where we see characters criticize the lie or talk about why it's bad. Nemesis is obviously the biggest example of this.
Alya: I was right earlier, wasn't I? Gabriel was Monarch.
Marinette: I never lied to you.
Alya: Technically, you didn't. You just kept the truth from me and manipulated me so you wouldn't have to answer my questions. Wow, thanks Marinette. So this is what being BFFs is like?
Marinette: I didn't want to burden you with all my secrets.
Alya: It's not just me, you lie to Adrien too every day.
Marinette: If I tell him the truth it'll break his heart.
Alya: You don't get to decide for other people what's good for them.
There are three criticisms that are being raised here: 1) Marinette lied to Alya 2) Marinette lied to Adrien 3) Marinette doesn't get to decide for other people what's good for them.
Alya explains in this episode why the first two are bad.
Nemesis!Alya: There's never a good reason to lie. Lying means betraying people.
And she explains in Sadnansi why the third is bad.
Alya: For years, it was kept from me that Nora and I didn't have the same dad. When I found out, the only thing that really hurt wasn't the truth, but the fact that someone else had decided for me what was good for me, what I should or shouldn't know.
She also reiterates her position about the big lie being a betrayal.
Alya: Marinette, I don't know what lie you've gotten yourself stuck in, but the truth always comes out in the end. So, what would you rather have happen: you being honest with Adrien, or him... eventually finding out on his own and realizing you betrayed him on top of lying?
Sadnansi also has the single instance of Marinette expressing a moral criticism of the big lie.
Marinette: This letter from Gabriel holds the whole truth. If I want a relationship with Adrien that's built on authentic love and true honesty, I must give it to him.
(...)
Marinette: I can't continue a relationship where I lie to the person I love most every day. If I can't tell Adrien the truth, then I'll have to break up with him.
The criticism here is that because Marinette is lying to Adrien, she's engaging in a deceptive relationship with Adrien, which is bad and should be stopped. The sentiment is repeated in Nemesis.
Adrien: I'm glad we had this heart to heart. I think that's what makes our relationship so beautiful. We can be completely honest with each other.
(...)
Marinette: I can't do this anymore, Tikki.
Tikki: What are you talking about, Marinette?
Marinette: Alya is right. I can't be with Adrien and keep lying to him. And I can't tell him the truth either, I don't have a choice. We're over.
Marinette states that Alya is right, which means we can apply Alya's reasoning here.
Marinette can't continue to be in a relationship with Adrien because she's betraying him by lying. A relationship is supposed to be built on trust and honesty, which is what he believes they have. By continuing to be with him, she's only making the betrayal worse.
Alya's criticisms in Revalator are similar but add a couple of additional elements.
Rena Rouge: You don't get to decide what Adrien should or shouldn't know. Neither do I. Truth is essential for someone's personal growth, and now that I know I'm gonna have to lie! And you know I don't. like. Lying!
Lying is bad because it prevents personal growth. Marinette's lie specifically is also bad because it forces Alya to lie, i.e. to betray people.
However, the biggest criticism of the lie that the show presents is that it's hurting Marinette.
Marinette: But if I tell Adrien the truth it'll do him too much harm, and I can't bear to see him suffer, Tikki.
Tikki: And I can't bear to see you suffer like this.
Marinette: Either I suffer by lying to him and Adrien remains happy, or I tell him the truth and we'll both be very unhappy.
Marinette: If you want, I can cancel my liar lesson—I MEAN—guitar lesson!
Adrien: No, no. Go ahead. Say "hi" to Luka for me. (Marinette begins to leave, but once she sees Nathalie she runs back up to her.)
Marinette: I can't take it anymore! We have to tell Adrien the truth!
Dream!Luka: Lying, lying again, always lying. The burden is too much to bear.
Dream!Rena Rouge: You'll feel better once you're rid of your secrets, Marinette. Let's drop the masks.
(...)
Marinette: Those weren't my friends, Kaalki, they were just projections of things I wish for.
Marinette: Dear diary, that's it! Adrien and I are officially a couple. Even when I feel his hand in mine, I cannot believe it sometimes. But I think I know why. The truth is, I still can't be myself because I lied to him and to the entire world and-
Even from the very beginning the focus was on how hard keeping the lie was for Marinette.
Ladybug: Cat Noir, do you know what it's like to go so far, almost too far in order to protect someone you love?
Cat Noir: You mean like sacrificing oneself?
Ladybug: More like... say... keeping a huge secret? A secret so heavy that you really wanna share right this minute because it's too much and you feel like crying and you just need someone to comfort you?
There are more quotes I can use but I think this gets the point across. The big lie hurting Marinette is by far the harm the show emphasizes the most. The quotes I used that talked about how lying is bad is basically all the show offers on the topic. Meanwhile, there are entire episodes dedicated to how much the big lie is hurting Marinette.
Stories dedicate screen time to the things they consider important. How much screen time is given to each element can be used to roughly tell what the show considers important and what it doesn't. While it's not a perfect metric, it's a pretty good one.
So we can summarize the main criticisms of the big lie as such, ordered by how important the show considers them:
It hurts Marinette.
Marinette lying is bad because she's betraying the people she's lying to.
She's doubly betraying Adrien because she's in a relationship with him while lying.
She's deciding for Adrien what's good for him, which she has no right to do.
It prevents Adrien's personal growth.
You'll notice that none of that is actually a criticism of protecting terrorists, making the city lionize the villain who terrorized them or gaslighting Adrien and stopping him from processing his abuse. The closest we get is preventing Adrien's personal growth, but that's very broad and doesn't necessarily refer to him processing his abuse.
There's no mention that the lie in and of itself is harmful, both in general and especially to Adrien. There's no acknowledgement of how it may hurt Adrien, only that the act of lying is betraying him. As far as the show is concerned, Adrien thinking that Gabriel was a hero and letting go of his anger to Gabriel isn't a bad thing.
Why did Marinette lie?
In fact, not only does the show think Adrien believing the big lie isn't a bad thing, Nemesis shows us it outright thinks it's a good thing.
Marinette: Because I can't forget what he did! I mean, *circles around her room in agitation* the way he forbade you from going to school, or having friends, or how he did everything in his power to keep us from being together!
Adrien: But he was only doing it to protect us, Marinette. Remember the documentary we made together? That's what everyone who knew him explained to us.
Adrien: I also had a really hard time seeing the person that he was. I couldn't let go of the bad memories. But thanks to you, I've made peace with it all and—
Marinette: Now you're building your life around your father's shadow.
Adrien: But... it makes me feel better thinking about him in this way.
Marinette: I'm not sure if that's such a good thing.
Adrien: I don't understand your reaction, Marinette. You told me I was the only one who got to decide what to do with my life, and now that I finally feel like I could move forward, you seem to be bothered by it instead of just being happy for me.
Adrien's phone call with Marinette serves to recap the important things about the big lie plot so the audience can understand the stakes of the alyanette confrontation. That's why Adrien mentions all those things from previous episodes. It's exposition.
And the exact thing the scene is expositing to us is quite telling. It demonstrates to us exactly how the writers want us to understand the big lie, both the positives and negatives of it.
The negative with the most focus is, as always, the emotional toll the lie is taking on Marinette. She bursts out in the middle of the conversation because she can't keep it in any longer. More than that, it causes the closest thing to a fight we ever saw with adrinette.
But we also get to see one of the negatives Alya warned Marinette about. It prevents Adrien's personal growth, because now he's building his life in his father's shadow.
Most importantly for our purposes, we get to see the emotional state the big lie caused in Adrien. The scene tells us that Adrien had a lot of bad memories of his father he couldn't let go of, but thanks to the big lie and Marinette's efforts he now feels at peace. Believing the big lie makes him feel better and allows him to feel like he can finally move on with his life.
This is the exact reason why Marinette lied. To get this outcome. This is the happy ending that allows Adrien to be happy and move on with his life.
And Adrien thinks so too! He keeps emphasizing how it's due to Marinette's efforts that he can believe his father was a hero now. And he always says that in the sense that he's grateful for Marinette's efforts. We see that in the ending scene too.
Marinette: I'm so afraid of hurting you.
Adrien: You won't. I feel fine, and it's largely thanks to you.
Adrien consistently talks about how believing the lie makes him feel better and how it's due to Marinette that he feels fine now. He does it even outside the more dubious context of the museum, where it could be interpreted as a condemnation of Marinette's actions in making Adrien think positively of Gabriel. However, in the ending scene, it's clearly Adrien is attributing his current happiness to Marinette's actions with no negative undertones.
Some people claim Marinette lied to protect Adrien from backlash from the public or to prevent him being akumatized or other things. That's either flat out incorrect or a secondary benefit at most. The show is quiet consistent in telling us why Marinette is lying.
Rena Rouge: But why lie to Adrien?!
Ladybug: Because the truth is too harsh.
Luka: Why did you [lie to Adrien]?!
Viperbug: Because I love Adrien more than anything, and he'd be in so much pain if he'd ever have found out! He could get akumatized by the new holder of the Butterfly Miraculous. And I'll never, ever, EVER let anyone hurt him!
Marinette: Either I suffer by lying to him and Adrien remains happy, or I tell him the truth and we'll both be very unhappy.
The thing that's at stake, the thing the big lie is for, is Adrien's happiness.
Adrien: Actually, can I ask one more favor? I only have portraits of my father where he looked stern and uncaring. Would you mind making a drawing of him for me? One that actually looks like him, now that we both know him better.
Marinette: Sure, if it makes you happy.
That's all.
As far as the show is concerned, Adrien being upset about his father is something bad enough that justifies the big lie. Not in the moral sense, but rather in the sense it's a big enough harm that Marinette going so far feels roughly proportional, even if what she's doing still isn't okay.
Think of it as calling an ambulance for a broken leg. Yeah, the ambulance is still too much but the injury is severe and requires serious medical treatment. You can see how someone would jump to that course of action. They may be a bit anxious or overprotective, but it's not that strange.
Meanwhile, the vast majority of the fandom sees "Adrien being upset about his father" as something more akin to a sprained ankle. Yeah, it's not fun, and he might need to lean on people for a while, but give it some time and care and it'll heal on its own. Calling an ambulance for a sprained ankle is going waaaay too far and over-reacting to something that isn't that bad.
This is another thing the show is consistent about, framing the emotional pain from learning something bad as something unbearable that anyone who cares about you would want you to avoid.
The most obvious example is Riginarazione, where Marinette's family needs to tell her her grandfather is dying. It's a parallel to the big lie plot, where the family is placed in Marinette's role while Marinette is placed in Adrien's role.
And what we're shown is that the show thinks lying to your loved ones about bad news is the normal reaction.
Marinette: Is something wrong?
Gina: No, no. Everything's fine, Marinetta. I forgot that I have to go to um... a concert.
It's not just Gina. Her entire family is very uncomfortable and struggles to tell her.
Marinette: *answers her phone* Grandpa, how are you? What— Right now? But, uh, I'm about to go on a date with Adrien. And besides, I'll see you tonight at your birthday party. Are you sure? Can't we do it another day?
Gina: *grabbing Marinette's phone* Your granddaughter will be there in ten. *hangs up and tosses the phone back to Marinette*
Marinette: But Grandma, I didn't say yes!
Tom: For your grandfather to use a phone, it means he probably has something very important to tell you.
Marinette: Alright. I'll drop by quickly, and then, I'm off to Adrien's. See ya!
*Marinette leaves the room. Tom, Sabine, and Gina look at each other, their smiles dropping.*
Like, this is Marinette's family lying and manipulating her because they're so uncomfortable with the idea of telling her the truth. Tom knows why Rolland asked Marinette to come, but he frames it as a guess. Gina outright snatches the phone from Marinette's hand and decides for her that she's going to say yes.
Even if they didn't want to be the ones to tell her, they could've been honest and said her grandfather has something important to tell her without playing games. Instead they keep up the smiles and pretend they don't know anything is wrong in order to keep Marinette oblivious. Apparently even the anxiety of knowing that you're going to hear bad news is too harsh of an emotion.
Rolland isn't exempt from this either.
Gina: Don't you think it's time you told Marinette?
Roland: *defensive* No way! Back in the day, that's not how it was done!
Gina has to insist that he would tell Marinette, he wouldn't have done it of his own accord. When he does try to tell her, it's a full 3 minutes sequence of Rolland struggling to spit it out and beating around the bush in the hopes that Marinette would get it without him needing to spell it out.
Telling Marinette her grandfather is dying takes 7 out of the 22 minutes of this episode. Almost a third of the episode is spent with people being anxious about telling the bad news. For reference, we're only given 5 minutes in which Marinette struggles with and processes her grandfather dying, and I'm including in those 5 minutes the conversation where he tells her the situation straight.
They're all acting as if telling Marinette the truth would be inflicting on her is this unthinkable harm that they simply can't bring themselves to do. Their avoidance of the truth (and so by implication, how harsh the truth is) is given more time and focus than Marinette's actual pain and grief!
Telling someone bad news isn't easy. I would know, considering I was informed - and had to inform other family members - of my own grandmother's passing the day the episode aired. It's uncomfortable and you dance around the subject a bit while the other side has a sense of building dread because they get that something bad happened for you to talk like that.
But it's not this devastating harm that the show makes it out to be. Especially because the guy was dying of natural causes at age 75. A few years below the average life span in France, but not by that much. That doesn't make the loss any easier, obviously, but it does mean it's something that's simply a natural part of life that one must accept.
Yet they show Marinette completely devastated and in the kind of emotional turmoil that I don't think we ever saw before, which is impressive considering how many times we see her in emotional turmoil. She's acting like one of her parents is about to die rather than a grandfather she only knew for a few months and wasn't that close to.
The intensity of the reaction isn't normal. It isn't healthy. It's the kind of thing I would take as evidence of emotional dysregulation in a real person.
It would be one thing if it was just Marinette. She does have emotional dysregulation. She always reacts strongly even to small things. If it was just her, the reaction would just be part of Marinette's characterization.
But it isn't just her. It's her entire family too. Grown ass adults who should know a thing or two about grief and breaking bad news by now. Who should be able to regulate their emotions well enough to be able to break the news gently to Marinette rather than being completely avoidant of it like nervous teenagers. Or at the very least should have differing capabilities to do so. Yet their reaction is completely uniform.
What this tells me is that Marinette's intense reaction isn't because she's especially sensitive. It's because the writers think that's the normal and expected reaction.
So Marinette's crashout over learning her grandfather is dying? The writers think Adrien learning the truth would be at least that bad. That's the kind of severe and intense emotional turmoil Marinette is protecting Adrien from.
This is further reinforced with the way we see Marinette's family doing the exact same thing that Marinette is doing to Adrien. They're lying and manipulating her in order to protect from the truth. On a smaller scale, yes, and Gina eventually insisted that they inform Marinette. However, going by Rolland's reaction he didn't intend to tell her at all, just like Marinette doesn't intend to tell the truth to Adrien.
Marinette isn't the outlier in her behaviour with the big lie. The show genuinely believes that anyone in her place would react that way when faced with breaking bad news to a loved one. The only differences that makes her stand out are the lengths she would go to maintain the lie, as well as her not yet knowing that despite the enormous pain she would be inflicting she should still tell the truth.
That's a big part of the disconnect between the show and fandom. The shows sees the pain Adrien would experience from the truth as severe and him believing the lie as something pleasant. Meanwhile, the fandom sees the pain Adrien would experience from the truth as unpleasant but healthy, while him believing the lie as something really fucking awful.
The moral value given to each part of the equation is very different and so leads to very different understandings of the situation.
This is evident in the way the show frames the moral conflict of the big lie, most notably in Sadnansi.
Marinette's mirror image: *talking in Gabriel's voice* Yes, a lie's a heavy burden to keep secret, but that truth will only become one if you talk. I was willing to do anything to ensure my son's happiness. If you truly love him, you'll find the strength to lie.
Marinette: Be quiet!!! Adrien deserves sincere and honest love.
Ladybug: Yes, only— what if Sadnansi's right? It's probably easier to do what's right when you're not burdened by love.
Rena Rouge: Huh? Are you seriously willing to give up on love?
Ladybug: I don't want to give up on it. But if I stopped loving you-know-who, maybe I'd have the courage to do what's best for him.
The episode frames the conflict as a matter of "love vs truth". Adrien being happy at the cost of Marinette carrying the burden of the lie vs Adrien being unhappy but knowing the truth.
Notice how Marinette's argument to her mirror image is purely about the lying. About how Adrien deserves a relationship in which he isn't betrayed because his girlfriend is constantly lying to him. The mirror's image claim that the lie is for Adrien's happiness isn't contested at all. The show takes it as a given that the lie really is for Adrien's benefit.
The reason that telling the truth is what's best for Adrien is because the truth has an inherent value. It's GoodTM because it's the Truth. There's no discussion about the practicalities of the situation or even the details of the lie. The content of the lie simply isn't a factor here.
The situation is framed like this: if Marinette loves Adrien enough, she would find the strength to carry the burden (read: the emotional turmoil) of the big lie in order to keep Adrien happy and comfortable. However, the right thing to do would be to tell Adrien the truth and make him miserable. Facing the harsh reality would devastate him but eventually lead to personal growth.
Once again, Riginarazione serves us as a parallel here. Marinette may have been devastated upon learning the truth, but with Adrien's support she eventually had some personal growth and learned to appreciate and focus on the good memories she has with her grandfather rather than the pain of the loss.
As far as the show is concerned, the big lie is intended to shield Adrien from the severe harm that learning the truth would cause him. Marinette loves him so much that she can't bear to see him hurt by something so awful, so she lies to protect him. However, her mistake is in not letting him face the devastating reality while supporting him. If she had he would have personal growth and eventually learn to focus on the good things he has rather than the pain of the truth. But she simply loves him to much to allow him to face such enormous pain.
Interlude: Adrien's feelings
At this point, you may be thinking "how can the show think the lie is good for Adrien when it showed how it hurts him?"
The answer is simple. The show doesn't see Adrien's anger at his father as an abused kid processing his abuse. It sees it as something tragic that hurts Adrien and holds him back.
Adrien: I also had a really hard time seeing the person that he was. I couldn't let go of the bad memories. But thanks to you, I've made peace with it all and—
This is how he describes the situation in Nemesis. That he was upset because he couldn't let go of the bad memories. That he couldn't let go because he couldn't believe that Gabriel could be a hero.
It's honestly shocking to realize in hindsight how much Mr. Agreste tries to show those two things.
Nathalie: Is everything okay, Adrien? You only ate the cheese.
Adrien: I'm not that hungry, Nathalie.
Nathalie: I understand. This morning's meeting is bound to bring up painful memories. I can go alone, if you want.
The first scene for Adrien in the episode, the one that sets the conflict and explain Adrien's reaction during the meeting, says that the meeting is hard for Adrien because it's going to bring up painful memories.
And that's exactly what we see happens.
Adrien: Don't you remember the taste of his pancakes, Marinette? As dry and rigid as him.
Adrien: Even though I loved [Gabriel] too, I can't just forget the harm he caused us! And now, hearing the way everyone talks about him, I feel like they're talking about someone else. I refuse to see him the way everyone else does! Does that make me a bad son?
(Emphasis mine.)
When he shouts at the statue, he brings up a bunch of questions about the past, asking why Gabriel was so controlling, why didn't he let Adrien have any friends, why was he against Adrien being with Marinette, etc.
Most importantly, he asks:
Adrien: Why did you stop being Papa-corn and become...this! A cold... heartless... statue!
All questions that he's obviously not going to get answers to because Gabriel is dead. And yet they still cause him a lot of turmoil that he can't easily move on from. Which is exactly how the show frames the conclusion to Adrien's plotline in the episode.
Plagg: At least you got to tell that statue how you feel.
Adrien: It won't bring my father back. And it won't help me figure out who he was either. I guess I'm going to have to live with unanswered questions.
That's far from a happy ending where everything is resolved. The scene is more depressing or tragic. As far as the show is concerned this is Adrien being resigned to just living with the emotional turmoil that he showed in this episode. And remember, the show thinks that the emotional turmoil is severe harm. This isn't him starting to accept and process that his father is gone. This is him being stuck with an unsolvable emotional wound that's going to keep on bleeding.
And we see it bleeding in practically all of Adrien's appearances, because it's not just about the bad memories. it's about Adrien's inability to accept that Gabriel was a hero. The show treats to them as one and the same because Adrien simply can't reconcile the father he knew from his memories with the person everyone is telling him his father is.
Plagg: What's wrong, Adrien? You're as pale as a camembert rind!
Adrien: I'm Cat Noir. I was supposed to stop Monarch, but instead my father sacrificed himself to defeat him. I can't believe he and the hero who saved the world were the same person. It's like I'm missing something key here to understand, like who he really was.
(Oh yeah, the episode also shows he feels guilty for not being there to fight against Monarch. It's mentioned a few times but doesn't really connect to anything or go anywhere. It's just there.)
This is the second scene before the meeting that shows Adrien (the first was him eating breakfast with Nathalie), and this time he gets to tell us what his problem it. The issue is that he can't reconcile the father he remembers with the father he was told existed.
We see him playing with the papa corn plushie right before this, so it's clear the implication is that he longs for the father who gave him papa corn, but just can't believe that really was his father because of the bad memories. Something which is further implied by how he keeps the plushie close in the rest of the season.
Later in the episode, this is also the topic that's on his mind. After he storms out of the meeting this is the first thing he says to Marinette:
Adrien: Marinette, you knew my father. Can you believe that he could've been both the man that saved Paris and the man who tried to keep us from loving each other?
And in the fight against the akuma he spells out exactly what's on his mind.
Adrien: Why did you stop being Papa-corn and become...this! A cold... heartless... statue!
That's the question that's causing him emotional turmoil. The one at the heart of it all. What little plot he has this season is focused on him answering that question.
Dr. Psiquat: So, what do you need to talk about, Adrien?
Adrien: There's something... strange about my father.
We see the continuation of the therapy scene in Lady Chaos and it's basically more of this. Adrien lists a whole bunch of ways in which Gabriel was shitty and then he once again returns to his inability to believe the big lie because of the way he remembers his father.
Adrien: And now everyone says that he's saved Paris, that he sacrificed himself to help Ladybug defeat the super villain, Monarch. Except I cannot believe that he suddenly became this good man, and a hero at that...
That's the reason why the solution the therapist gives him is to learn more about his father from different perspectives rather than doing anything like validating his perspective.
And that's also why Marinette pressuring everyone to lie to him is actually quite a logical progression of the big lie (at least according to the show's logic). The big lie exists to solve Adrien's turmoil. Him not believing the lie is him holding on to bad memories is him being hurt really badly by all the bad emotions.
Obviously, that's not how fandom saw this episode. People saw this as Marinette pressuring people so she could gaslight Adrien about his father which he was seeking to process his abuse. Quite a horrible thing that crossed the line for a lot of people.
But as far as the show is concerned, this is in line with everything else. Other people lying to make him believe Gabriel was a hero is just helping him to move on from his bad memories. To believe in the father that he longs to have. If anything, Marinette is heroic for being willing to go that far to ensure Adrien can believe this gentler version of reality.
Which brings me to:
What kind of person is Marinette?
Because the show genuinely believes Marinette is being heroic with the big lie. Or as Alya put it:
Rena Rouge: Do I think Marinette Dupain-Cheng would do anything in order to protect other people, even if it means ruining her own life? Yes.
Remember, the big lie is only bad because it's a lie. Otherwise it's a good because it keeps Adrien happy. The show doesn't think Marinette is making a terrible mistake that's hurting Adrien. At most she's misguided and preventing Adrien's personal growth, but it isn't harming him in any way. The show thinks she's doing something good out of love but taking underhanded means to do it.
Not only something good, but selfless as well. Because in order to protect Adrien from this severe emotional pain, she's making a huge sacrifice by hurting herself so badly.
Bug Noire: The wish... I should've made the wish. For Adrien.
Nathalie: And what would you have sacrificed?
Bug Noire: ...Myself.
This is what the writers think is going on here. Marinette is sacrificing herself for Adrien's sake in order to create a world where he's happy. The only difference is that she isn't doing this with the Wish. She's doing it through the big lie.
They fashion her to be Atlas, holding up the sky for the sake of other people, most of all the love of her life.
Marinette: I didn't want to burden you [Alya] with all my secrets.
Marinette: I [revealed I'm Ladybug] to reassure [my parents]. But now, whenever an akumatized villain shows up, they get super worried
Other characters see her this way too.
Luka: Marinette, I love you! You're the strongest person I've ever met but this time I'm the one who needs to protect you!
Luka's underlying perception of Marinette here is that she's someone strong who always takes the burden on her shoulders to protect others.
That's the kind of person the show thinks Marinette is. Someone heroic and noble who loves deeply and is willing to do anything for the people she loves. The big lie is just another noble burden she's taking for the sake of protecting other people without regard to how much it hurts her.
Like, this is something that needs to be emphasized. The show sees the big lie as a badge of honor that speaks about what Marinette is willing to do for the sake of her love. Every time she's conflicted, that's a sacrifice she's making for Adrien's sake. Every time she decides to not tell him, that's a sign of her strength of character to keep shouldering this heavy burden for the sake of Adrien's happiness. Every time she tries to convince Adrien his father was a hero, that's her protecting Adrien.
And yes, she's also crossing some lines along the way. She's lying to everyone, but that's because of how great her love is to Adrien. She's pressuring people to lie to him, but that's to protect him. She manipulated Alya, but that's because she's so stressed and carrying so many burdens that she doesn't know how to let anyone help.
She might be doing morally dubious things, but she's ultimately a noble character with good intentions who loves deeply and only wants to protect people. She'll get her hands dirty for the sake of the people she cares about, taking the burden on herself rather than letting anyone else carry it.
What is the story being told?
Instead of summarizing everything, allow me to tell a story that's morally equivalent to the story the show thinks it's telling. I think it gets the point across better.
Let's say Adrien wanted to become, say, an artist. It's something he really wants. But the problem is, he's pretty bad at it. For all that he's enthusiastic, his stuff is just ugly.
That's something he realizes over time, after a lot of rejections. Not even his determination and optimism can withstand so much negative feedback and he got a lot of it. So much so, that he's considering giving up on his dream.
Marinette sees this and how despondent Adrien is at the idea of giving up his dream, that she simply can't bare it. She has to fix this. So she goes and bribes and begs and pull strings. She weaves a huge lie that people actually love Adrien's art. Maybe she even gets people to buy his stuff.
But Adrien struggles to accept this lucky windfall. He internalized so many of the criticisms and rejections that he simply can't believe this is legit. He looks at his art and sees it's still as ugly as ever. All the criticism he was told about it runs through his head. He can't simply forget about them.
This disconnect between what the people around him are telling him and all the criticisms he heard creates a lot of turmoil. He can't make sense of why this is happening. It just doesn't make sense. He knows he's a shitty artist who doesn't have any future in it. He even started to accept it! So why is everyone telling him otherwise now? He gets so frustrated about it, that he even breaks a statue he made in his anger.
Marinette sees this and decides to go even further to help Adrien believe that this is real. To help him accept this happy new reality that he longed for and let go of all the failures and disappointment that's haunting him. This time she pressures and blackmails the people around Adrien into telling him his art is good.
It works, and Adrien starts to believe it. But doing all of this takes a heavy emotional toll on Marinette, especially when she keeps having to pretend that Adrien's art is good in order to keep up the lie and make him happy. He gives her an ugly ass painting to put in her room. She completely hates it but she has to keep it and pretend to love it whenever he comes around.
More than that, she feels alienated from Adrien. There's this massive secret between them that's constantly on her mind. She can't simply relax and accept the relationship as is when the knowledge of the lie keeps bothering her. It makes her feel like there's a massive wall between her and Adrien that she simply can't get over.
Yet, she can't simply tell him the truth. His dream finally came true after he was so sad and frustrated earlier. He's finally happy. She can't hurt him by taking that from him and telling him that all the success he had was a lie, and that the bad memories he had been clinging to was the truth.
Alya finds out and she's pissed. Marinette lied both to her and Adrien about something this big. More than that, she doubled down and tried to manipulate Alya to keep the lie a secret. Yes, Marinette's intentions may have been good and it may be making Adrien happy, but this is not the way to go about this. It's a massive betrayal that tries to control Adrien's life for his own good. Sure, it may actually be benefiting him, but that's still not okay. Adrien needs to face the disappointing reality in order to grow as a person.
Still, Alya sees how bad Marinette is feeling and how she was genuinely trying to do something good. And she's still Marinette's best friend. So she does feel some sympathy. She won't blow this lie wide open and bring it all crashing down on Marinette's head, but she won't lie for her either. She's giving Marinette the chance to come clean, both because it's the right thing for Marinette to do and because Marinette confessing would allow her to make the crash a bit gentler than it could've been.
That demonstrates pretty well the kind of moral dilemma the show thinks is happening. But maybe it's still a bit removed from the actual story, so lets try another example.
Let's say that Adrien's father was disappointing. He was really lame. Like, socks and sandals, boring accountant level of lame. Adrien all his life wanted his father to be awesome. Something he wouldn't be embarrassed to be seen with. But over the years he started to get disillusioned about him.
But then Gabriel died and he went out as a hero. It was the kind of thing Adrien always wanted, to have a father he could be proud of. But his memories of his father makes it harder to accept such a reality. At least until he talks with people who knew his father. It turns out that his father had actually done many awesome things in his life. Adrien just hadn't known about this side of him before.
Now replace "lame" with "a jerk", and "a father he could be proud of" with "a father who loved him".
As far as the show is concerned, Gabriel isn't an abusive father, he was a jerk. Adrien isn't an abused kid who has a lot to process and unpack from his abuse, he's a kid with a disappointing father who just needs to let go of the bad memories.
That's the story Miraculous Ladybug thinks it's telling.
Tumblr needs to not suggest accounts that continue to downplay Alyas reaction as her..overreacting and 'not understanding Marinette'. There is nothing to understand, there is no how did this come to be..its very surface level; Marinette lied, and she got people to join in on her lie (Alya and Emilie, while others like Felix, Kagami and Natalie readily agreed to do so.)
Alya did NOT agree to this type of lie and has made that clear. Why is Marinette allowed constant leeway and excuses but everyone else cant? "Marinettes having a break down, Marinettes stressed" Marinette can't tell anyone!" These are self inflicted problems.
She has A LOT of people in her corner, she even has her parents now, there is NO ONE holding her hostage about this, she dragged it out this long because she simply can't bring herself to have a difficult conversation and because she waited this long it WILL become a whole thing.
Adrien lost his parents, no one knows his identity (Luka doesnt count because they aren't close so it reallt doesn't matter what he knows fr), Alya was terrorized by Monarch and threatened.
Why is Marinette allowed to do anything she deems fit because she is stressed? Everyones stressed. Stop excusing her, she was wrong and Alya reacted accordingly and whatever happens is Marinettes fault.
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Funny how the miraculous fandom only uses the " being 14/15 years old" to justify the actions of Marinette and Marinette only: most of the cast in that show has the same age as her but when they mess up they get immidiately get thrown under the bus ! Same goes for the " misoginy " excuse : if you hat Alya or any other female character it's fine but the second you dare criticize Marinette?! You must be sexist!
"You guys should wait for Season 7 instead of complaining" and then what? Sit through episodes full of sad Marinette moments, more abuse apologia, more characters losing their IQ, more of Lila collecting plot armors like candy and more bullshit plots the writers pull out of their asses????
Hopefully one last rant, but there is no point in having every character sing praises about how selfless and good your main character is if you're going to write her as selfish, hypocritical, self-centered, manipulative, abusive, and careless.
I came back to the fandom thinking, "You know what? I like Adrien because I strongly relate to him, and I can still enjoy the ship and the MC despite all her flaws and the show's writing problems. I can just ignore canon and do my own thing."
But after today, it genuinely makes me feel awful. And I know it's probably silly to feel this hurt over fictional characters, but as someone who has experienced child abuse, I can't help thinking about all the times I was gaslighted, had my experiences invalidated, or was made to feel like my abusers' behavior was somehow justified. I think Marinette's selfishness and the way the narrative keeps excusing it genuinely triggered something in me.
I can't believe the show is going to put Adrien back into a relationship with someone who participated in enforcing his abuse, gaslighted him, kept him in the dark, manipulated him, and repeatedly failed to actually prioritize him.
And no, I don't consider every instance of Marinette "prioritizing Adrien" genuine selflessness. So many of those decisions are ultimately about what she thinks is best for him, what she wants for him, or what makes her feel better—not what Adrien actually wants or what would genuinely be healthiest for him. That's still controlling, even if it's motivated by love.
I genuinely can't imagine being an abused child watching this storyline and being told, implicitly, that this is what healing looks like. Adrien doesn't get to process what happened to him. He doesn't get to reclaim his agency. He doesn't get to confront the people who participated in his abuse. He doesn't get to build a life and identity independent of the people controlling him.
The show has made it painfully clear that there is no real healing arc for him.
His happy ending apparently means becoming the arm candy and pet boyfriend of the person who helped perpetuate the very dynamic he was supposed to escape.
TFW you aren't able to enjoy the "Marinette reveals that she's LB to her parents" plot-twist the latest ep dropped because
1) Like with the "Character breaks akumatization on own" event, the writers have basically run this reveal into the ground with how often they pulled it to the point that i genuinely don't really care that Tom and Sabine know now because almost everyone does. It's not really a special specific event or a show of absolute trust that it should be because of how easily she spills the beans on it as of recent. Bet all of Paris will know Marinette is Labybug by the series finale.
2) It's again a bitter reminder both that Adrien does not have anyone he can freely trust his secret ID to like that and that we are never ever going to get a proper mutual ID reveal because again, Marinette's told everyone and their mother by this point, so the appeal/specialness has been greatly reduced.
3) Like with the therapist and Max's Autsim, this feels like something that should have happened at least 2 or 3 seasons ago and the writers dropping it now makes it feel weird and out of place
4) Like with a lot of the stuff introduced to the show, I have zero faith it's going to lead anywhere interesting or have any impact/effect on the series going forward - hell, they'll probably find a way to either walk back orb make it moot by next season
I can already see people being annoying about Alya. Why the HELL would Alya be okay with this lie? Why would she be okay with her best friend, her HERO, lying to her and their friend (her boyfriend) and all of Paris about the person thats been terrorizing them for months??
Why would she let that slide? Did you people seriously expect her to be like "Hahah oh Marinette" while wagging her finger at her?? Marinette screwed up on several accounts.
No ones forcing her to do this (Natalie has no power over her in any sense so cant use her as an excuse) Marinettes reason to do this is selfish and thats all it is. Theres no deeper meaning, its a selfish decision because SHE isnt prepared for the outcome, SHE can't deal with it and she wants to protect herself and then drag everyone else into this nonsense, Alya isn't okay with that and shes made that obvious.
And yall are..mad because she *checks notes* isnt blindly agreeing and supporting Marinette like a lap dog..okay. This has been a CONSISTENT thing for Marinette where she hides shit from Chat/Adrien and its always because she can't have a difficult conversation to save her life.
Everyones lucky Alya didn't straight up say she'll tell Adrien herself if Marinette doesn't, tf.
Most of the issues that happened this season is cuz Marinette hasn't owned up to anything and whatever fall out happens..Will be her fault. And Felix, Kagami and Natalie but that goes without saying cuz theyre also harboring these god damn secret under the fake pretense of 'protecting Adrien'..exactly like Gabriel.
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It's so funny how the writers unintentionally had Marinette re-heat Sayeon's nachos while still trying to portray her as a good person we should root for like how does that happen?!
Made the mistake of watching the new episodes instead of studying like I should.
But holy shit, the finale was even better than I expected. And by "better" I mean "they made Marinette into more of a manipulative asshole than I would've imagined".
The way she doubled down on the manipulations when Alya confronted her about the lies? That's salt fic levels of characterization. And nobody @ me about her not being manipulative there. I can list out the exact manipulation tactics she used and even the show had Alya explicitly saying that she was trying to manipulated her bff.
Marinette going "sorry I'm not reacting in the way you want me to" to Adrien with absolutely zero self awareness was amazing. There's no quicker way to make Marinette unlikeable than having her be angry that the boyfriend she spent the entire season gaslighting was successfully gaslit into parroting everything she tried to convince him of. They way they kept emphasizing how Marinette was the one who convinced him of all those things was simply peak.
Adrien's life is straight out psychological horror at this point. I wouldn't be surprised if they have Marinette ghosting him or breaking with him over text rather than doing it face to face. Maybe she would (have someone else) hand him a letter with a three pages speech about her emotions and then at the end she would mention she's breaking up with him. That seems like the most ic option for her to do lol.
Every issue people have with Marinette's character rn would go away if the writers were willing to commit to making her a morally dubious protagonist but this will never happen because they first need to 1. Abandon the idea of Marinette and Adrien being endgame and 2. Stop trying to make Maribug a role model.
A morally dubious protagonist needs to face permanent consequences for their actions, you need to be willing to have characters who dislike them without the narrative treating them as wrong for it and they can't be role models BECAUSE they're morally dubious, you don't want the child audience to emulate them. You also shouldn't try and make the audience feel bad for them when they suffer because of their own shitty actions.
I'm all for the idea of Marinette being hero that slowly falls to villany but the thing is... this story requires her to go down in order to be satisfying which Miraculous will NEVER do so that's why she utterly fails to be a "morally complex" protagonist
I know you’re more of an “Adrien centered” criticism/defense blog but I am curious about your opinion on this.
What is your opinion on the “Chloe deserves/doesn’t deserve redemption” situation or the “Chloe wasn’t meant to be redeemed and there for what happened to her is fair game” stance?
---
My thoughts on the Chloé situation are kinda complex. Back when the show only had three seasons, I did think Chloé’s character trajectory made sense. Sure, she’d saved people when she was acting as Queen Bee, but she still treated her classmates the same. In fact, she started treating Sabrina worse than before because she considered being anything other than Queen Bee hanging out with Ladybug was slumming it. For me, it really was a 50/50 on whether or not Chloé would be redeemed or fall into actual villainy.
Because, here’s how I saw it: I didn’t think Chloé was an actual villain-villain in seasons 1-3. She was Marinette’s school nemesis and a decidedly defanged one. Marinette was scared of her exactly once, in Origins, a flashback episode meant to showcase how much more confident being Ladybug has made Marinette that she views Chloé as small potatoes. The season 3 finale could have been the culmination of an arc where Marinette accidentally causes Chloé to become a villain and ally herself with Hawk Moth in the future.
And it would have been caused by Marinette, even if unintentionally. It would have shown how good intentions can have unforeseen consequences, especially when you don’t know what you’re helping someone with or what they want before you do so. Marinette doesn’t really understand what she’s trying to help people with whenever she does try to be helpful, because she assumes what they want and need instead of asking and listening (like in Reflekdoll, the latter part of Ikari Gozen and Quilt Trip). Many heroes create their own villains this way, and Marinette could have done so as well since she was the one to strengthen Chloé’s bond with the person who taught her to be an entitled bully and then she dragged her feet on whether or not she could use the Bee Miraculous.
The season 3 finale shows Chloé brought to a new low. The following New York Special gives us a glimpse of a Chloé who is withdrawn, like she’s reconsidering her life. This could have led to Chloé deciding that she would have revenge on Ladybug for leading her on and then dumping her (as a teammate). But, it could have also have led to Chloé realizing that, while Ladybug wasn’t her friend, Sabrina was, and she pushed the latter away in pursuit of being the Bee Miraculous holder. Chloé could have gained new insight that would have led her to start working on how she treats those closest to her, finally starting to treat her schoolmates with decency and, maybe, with time, kindness.
Then season 4 came along and all that foreshadowed introspection was dumped out the window in favor of having Chloé do cartoonishly stupid school antagonist character things. In season 4, where this kind of hijinks are so incredibly low-stakes that it’s both laughable to see, and laughable to realize the writers think this is good television.
I think the writers realized this too, because then comes season 5 with the retcon that, actually, Chloé is an evil mastermind who is so heinous that she orchestrated a traumatic event that led to Marintette’s character flaws and therefore Marinette should be forgiven for her flaws and Chloé blamed for them. Never mind the damage this episode does to Kim’s character, turning him from an oblivious to jock to a total creep, it also tries to convince us that Chloé is this big threat despite that it happened at least a year ago in-universe and that she had never done anything even close to this bad since. It just makes no sense when contrasting with the early seasons, where Marinette treats Kim as just one classmate among many and Chloé as a low-threat nuisance.
The problem was that they decided that they didn’t want Marinette to hold any responsibility for anything she does anymore. This is why they wrote the episode ‘Derision’, to absolve Marinette of all responsibility in her stalking of Adrien, even though them making it a serious trauma response instead of a cartoon-logic joke means that now she absolutely should take responsibility for her behavior and get therapy. Because they wanted to give Marinette a retroactive justification, the episode just doesn’t mesh with the rest of the show. But, like, the writing in Miraculous seasons 4-5 is so bad it’s of course never just about a single episode, it’s all about how the Miraculous writers don’t know how to build up arcs that then come to a logical conclusion, which is why all their story arcs’ endings fall flat and leave viewers thinking “where’s the rest of it?” when they’re not considered one of the worst finales for a show.
Basically, making Chloé a villain could have worked, but it would have required her getting built up into such a status. The Chloé of seasons 1-3 isn’t a monster, she’s a brat. But the writers didn’t want to do that work despite wanting that story, thinking some repetitive episodes of Chloé being a brat some more will accomplish the same thing. So, Chloé just keeps performing petty bullying until the writers think the viewers forgot that she’s like this because of her mother, who Marinette reunited her with, all the while pretending the woman who calls her by the wrong name to her face on purpose has done nothing wrong as a parent other than “leave”, before she randomly turns on Miss Bustier and starts working with Hawk Moth for supposedly no reason in Collusion.
And, like, the thing that really grinds my gears is that it worked. So many people forgot that Chloé’s bullying was modeled to her by her mother, who Marinette reunited her with. Marinette repeatedly tries to fix abused kids’ relationships to their parents with no regard for how that could harm them in the long run (Adrien, Chloé and Kagami). It’s a pattern, but the show thinks Marinette’s missteps shouldn’t be pointed out because she “had good intentions” when her intentions in the instances of The Bubbler, Style Queen and Ikari Gozen were nothing more than: “Well, my parents are great, so these kids are obviously safe with the parents I just saw make them miserable!” The accusing finger for Chloé’s behavior should be pointed at Audrey. Marinette being “triumphant” over Chloé because Chloé is now stuck with the abuser who made her is already iffy without the added grossness of Marinette being the one who reunited them in the first place.
As a prev said 'reblogging because it is relevant again'.
S6 really cranked the dial and then broke it off with QotD. The only upside is that it was so over the top that even Chloé haters were saying, 'But this makes no sense. None of this happened.' add to that how terribly on-the-nose the fandom and Chloé slander was and the fact that the adults were openly talking abusing using and steering the child to be worse... But the show was still making sure you knew it was all the child's fault.
I just wanted to add in one thing that is gross about the whole arc. -How it absolves André. So many people do it. Heck I used to do it. The man had almost sole custody of Chloé for most of her life! He did *nothing* to raise her.(Nothing positive at least) She might as well have been feral in the hotel. The only things she learned from observing him were blackmail and deception. This is explicitly stated in the show, twice, three seasons apart.
Yet he is treaded as the poor put upon little rich man who couldn't make his movies because he had to raise the kid he fathered. Woe is him. He gets gifted a free daughter that doesn't need to be raised because someone else did the work, and gets off scott free from the *actual real world crimes* he committed on a grand scale for decades. Like, the kind of stuff that us currently bringing our system down. André did that. ML said 'aww poor boy'.
Every issue people have with Marinette's character rn would go away if the writers were willing to commit to making her a morally dubious protagonist but this will never happen because they first need to 1. Abandon the idea of Marinette and Adrien being endgame and 2. Stop trying to make Maribug a role model.
A morally dubious protagonist needs to face permanent consequences for their actions, you need to be willing to have characters who dislike them without the narrative treating them as wrong for it and they can't be role models BECAUSE they're morally dubious, you don't want the child audience to emulate them. You also shouldn't try and make the audience feel bad for them when they suffer because of their own shitty actions.
I'm all for the idea of Marinette being hero that slowly falls to villany but the thing is... this story requires her to go down in order to be satisfying which Miraculous will NEVER do so that's why she utterly fails to be a "morally complex" protagonist
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Lots of people have said it before me, but Chloe’s situation is messed up in so many ways. With multiple adults having groomed and used her, before tossing her aside. And how she’s still being groomed and exploited, but isn’t aware of it. Or she is, and just refuses to acknowledge it because she wants to think this is love.
But another thing that I recently realised that I think makes it so much worse is just how publicly available this knowledge is, in universe. Such as in Queen Wasp, when Audrey says there’s nothing exceptional about her on live tv. Which is several levels of horrible itself. But it’s also shown in miraculous there’s social media, so it’s highly possible someone else had recorded it and put it online for everyone to see. Presumably this also could have happened when she was removed as mayor and Andre dragged her off and sent her with Audrey.
Meaning that literally anyone in the universe of miraculous could easily find the footage of Chloe being treated badly online.
Yet of course, both the show and Thomas refuse to acknowledge this other aspect of tragedy to Chloe’s character. As no one, especially any other adults other than Noe and Audrey, has attempted truly help Chloe in any way. Leaving Chloe to be manipulated even more. While Thomas has arguments with fans online about it, and then bashing Chloe fans in the show itself.
Okay so I'm not surprised that people are being annoying as fuck about Alya apparently being pissed with Marinette AS SHE SHOULD BE.
Marinette has been holding a secret she has no damn right to hold from someone shes suppose to love and Alyas WHOLE THING IS TRUTH SEEKING so of course when she finds out..shes going to be pissed (ae already expected this reaction btw, it happened before)
Like why is Marinette constantly allowed to make the most selfish, impulsive decisions in the world and no ones allowed to call her out or else they deserve their miraculous taken away?? Screw off. Marinette had this coming, its the consequences of her actions.
Her keeping this truth wasn't honoring Gabriel, it wasn't selfless, it wasn't because she was scared of Natalie or whatever. She was scared of Adrien BREAKING UP WITH HER. So yeah. Alyas reaction is justified and if you think otherwise, I'm just gonna assume you're not the brightest bulb in the store 🤷♀️
