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this is absolutely going to cause me to lose every single follower i have but i Do Not Care so anyways, i have something id like to say.
incest is not inherently damaging whatsoever as long as its consensual. there is zero scientific evidence that consensual incest is damaging. NONE. of course, incestuous abuse absolutely exists and is extremely damaging to the victims of it, but what i am talking about is consensual relationships between adults.
before you call me insane, here:
in an article by clare kasemset from stanford university, she states that one of the main (and only) scientific reasons that incest is illegal is that "the offspring of partners with a high level of consanguinity are more likely to have birth defects". however, this is eugenics: disabled people's children are also very likely to have children with birth defects, and anyone really could potentially have children with birth defects. this argument is simply that incestuous relationships should be illegal so that birth defects cease to exist. keep in mind, the definition of eugenics is "to arrange reproduction within a human population to increase the occurrence of heritable characteristics regarded as desirable"; in essence, make sure that the only people born are "desirable", which would include being able-bodied. kasemset goes on to explain that "the act of incestuous sexual intercourse does not cause harm". incest does not inherently cause harm. the only reasons people give for the illegalization of incestuous relationships are eugenics and the potentially offensiveness of it due to the fact that "the vast majority of people in this country have deep-seated beliefs that incest is immoral".
in an article by maria campo redondo and gabriel andrade, they state that "incest represents a risk, but this is not reason enough to illegalize incest". this is because "other circumstances of sexual intercourse may lead to similar risks, and yet, such practices are not illegal". think of how AIDs is used to say that homosexuality should be illegal, how the possibility of miscarriage is used to say that people should only be getting pregnant at young ages, how the possibility of disabled children is used to say that disabled people shouldnt be having children: all of these are arguments that rely on nothing but "disability should be eradicated". ableism is so extremely ingrained in our society that people constantly search for the cure to every disability so that they wont have to deal with disabled people existing. i have had friends who have been told "your children will be disabled though!!!!! đĽ" for being disabled just like those who are in incestuous relationships have. you should be allowed to have a child as long as you or someone else is capable of taking care of them, no matter if that child is disabled or not - a child potentially being disabled is not a morally wrong thing. as the authors of this article say, the reasons why incest is illegal "do not relate to public health and genetic risks".
in a paper by jeff sebo, he states that "incest increases the incidence of inherited genetic diseases by about three percent". three percent. that is only three out of every hundred children born out of incestuous relationships. the argument of incest increasing disabilities is not only founded on eugenics, but founded on a very small statistic - especially compared to the fact that the probability of an autistic person have an autistic child is, on average, 3.45%. it is no different from any genetically disabled person having a child. advocating for incest to be illegal based on the possibility of disabled children is no different from advocating for disabled people to be sterilized.
he also explains that family is not dramatically different from any other relationship, and that there "are numerous important relationships in our livesâsome of which are based on blood, others of which are notâand it is ridiculous to assume that our family members, whoever they may be, are necessarily our emotional centers". for many, many people, friends can even more important than family, or family can seem much more similar to friendly dynamics than typical family dynamics. the argument of families is also very often used against queer people by saying that it ruins the inherent family dynamics that are supposedly present, when in reality, families all function very differently and many people see their siblings or cousins as more like friends than how families are typically portrayed. as the author says: "no relevant moral distinction neatly separates our family relations from the other relationships in our lives".
he also explains that many people claim that incest "turn[s] out badly frequently enough to warrant a categorical ban". incestuous relationships are often abusive ones, this is very evident. however, "the outcome of our test will depend largely on how we run it". if we only ask abuse victims what their experience was (as many, many articles do), we will come to the conclusion that it is all abusive. only looking at people who were children abused by adult family members is not looking at the effects of incest, but looking at the effects of child abuse. yes, there may be a lack of scientific evidence for incest being good - but absence of evidence is not evidence of absence, and there are many, many person experiences from people. on top of that, "those who breach the taboo are branded as outsiders, they suffer the effects of social ostracism, and since others misinterpret this suffering as caused by the act and not the label, they are used as evidence in support of the taboo". if someone is in an incestuous relationship, they will be hated by everyone, which will lead to them being depressed and possibly suicidal - not because of the incest itself, but because of how its treated.
source (PLEASE go read this its very well-done): https://jeffsebo.net/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/the-ethics-of-incest1.pdf
look. i came into this respectfully disagreeing with you, but then i looked into it myself, and i do have to say: i agree, mostly. this is one of the few times i will talk about sexual topics on my page because this one's unavoidable it's inherently going to be brought back to sex sorry. i also mention sexual violence, csa and sexual assault in this, so be wary.
first off, i acknowledge that you have fair points, quite a few actually. first of all, the concept of incest is very much more heavily demonized than it really needs to be. i would like to assume this is not only due to the stigma around it being a paraphilia but also because of history showing the effects of long-term inbreeding, and how it caused intense health risks for individuals. i agree that there are likely many circumstances where the same family dynamic does not apply to individuals who would be blood relatives, such as for example cousins who see themselves more as friends like you said. i would also like to add the fact that some forms of incest are not directly genetically harmful, such as a pair of adopted siblings, something i cannot remember if you mentioned.
i do agree that it is definitely a strange double standard for incestuous relationships to be criminalized due to the reason of "a possibility child comes out disabled." i would like to add the fact that it also paves the way for someone with very bad-faith intentions to attempt to, as you alluded to, criminalize disabled people having children as well.
in doing my own reading on this, i found a quote by martin o'reilly, stating, "indeed, itâs worth noting that with respect to huntingtonâs disease â a distressing, impairing brain disorder â if one parent has it, thereâs a 50 percent chance any child he/she has will also be born with the fatal disorder. But if we donât punish those carrying defective genes from having children, why then should we punish incestuous partners? if weâre not prepared to prevent carriers of congenital disorders from having children âor, for that matter, having sex â then it seems quite arbitrary and discriminatory to only punish incestuous partners." i think it's a pretty well-stated commentary on this phenomenon and the double-standard enforced here. i'm not going to make commentary on the ethics of attempting to stop anyone from having children who are disabled or who may be disabled, simply because it is a highly complex issue that i am not one side on. i can recognize points on both sides that are well spoken, and i can see people on both sides having genuinely good-faith opinions on the matter.
however, i would not use the word eugenics here. i feel as if that may be too heavy a word to be using in this situation, as eugenics has been used as part of a collection of ideologies used to systemically discriminate against and even genocide individuals before, which i would not like to compare the act of incest to. i feel as if that waters down the suffering victims of eugenics have gone through.
my original arguments were for the unhealthy power dynamic between individuals who have grown up as family members, but... there is no evidence i can find of that power dynamic other than in fringe situations. i have only seen criticism of your reference of "destroying a family dynamic" or "emotional harm to the other family members," and commentary proving the exact opposite, or commentary on incestuous abuse, or incest not practiced by two consenting adults (see: child abuse). in fact, in the abstract of a book i found legitimately criticizing incest as it would harm the family dynamic, the author directly states "that being said, i argue that there is insufficient legal justification for all consensual, adult incest to be criminalised. i examine four potential arguments in favour of consensual, adult incest being illegal, and conclude that none of them succeeds in justifying a total legal prohibition against it."
turning back to martin, who puts it in a way that really puts it into perspective for me, specifically when he talks about an explanation by vera bergelson, detailing "the legal scholar vera bergelson points out this argument is both overbroad and redundant. itâs overbroad in the sense that it applies to cases where power dynamics, abuse, or exploitation do not exist. (speaking of which, we donât prohibit nonincestuous adult relationships merely because one partner is older, richer, or has more social status than the other). the argument is also redundant as there are already statutes directed at child abuse and statutory rape, as well as sexual exploitation or violence (irrespective of the age of the victim). the sexual acts between relations here would be immoral not because they are incestuous, but because they would amount to rape, violence or exploitation; we already regard such behaviour as wrong, independent of whether or not incest occurred." honestly if i could quote his entire breakdown of it, i would. i'll try not to, though.
while i would love to treat this going into this with the passion of a thousand suns throwing out proof that it's actually really terrible and you are So Stupid To Believe That.... well, first of all, this was something written in complete good faith with cited scholarly sources and second of all i don't do that usually lol. and third of all... there really is no evidence! i would love if someone could pop into this and give some articles that disprove op and i's statements in defense of consensual incest, i've found that every article i've seen talking about it in a negative light have been
only speaking of incest between father and daughter, especially in cases of csa. paints all father-daughter relationships as the father directly asserting dominance over the daughter (which in most cases may be the case) and paints any other situations, like mother-son incest, as either the woman being the victim (denying the concept that women can be aggressors and/or rapists and that men can be victims of rape) or somehow the son is the problem.
treating sibling incest as somehow the fault of the father for not being "dominant enough" in the family, therefore causing the brother to be the source of power. repeat the earlier statements about father-daughter relationships.
ignoring the concept of incestuous relationships between, say, cousins, or aunt and nephew.
for these, i would check out this article which in the preview breaks down parts of weinberg's incest behavior. additionally, if you feel privy, feel free to do as i did and browse google scholar attempting to find one link to an abstract or synopsis that isn't in defense of consensual adult incest. seriously, it's more difficult than you would think.
i... have had every argument i had dismantled, honestly. i had one about the increased amount of inbreeding that would come from the decriminalization and normalization of incest, but guess what: good old martin coming back again. "this might be a fair objection if there was good reason to assume the decriminalisation of adult incest would lead to a significant rise of inbreeding. but as we know, there are already a small number of countries that currently donât ban adult incest, and weâve no reason to believe there are significant instances of inbreeding in those countries. thereâs also evidence to suggest the practice will never become widespread: various studies have shown that people who live together in close proximity during early life become desensitised to future sexual attraction."
....so, yeah. op, you're right on this one! seriously, i invite anyone to try and disprove this in a way that a. cites evidence that is either as reputable as or more reputable than ours (hey, i'd take anything above a blog post lol), b. doesn't use "it's gross" as a reason, and c. doesn't inherently dismiss the concept that women can be aggressors or perpetuates the concept that all family dynamics have to be the Nuclear Family, Actually. hell, i'm lenient on that last one, that's an opinion you can have, even if i personally don't agree with it.
also, just to recap op's first commentary: this is not on the topic of sexual abuse. this is not attempting to erase the effect on incest on sexual abuse, or how victims of incest especially as children may experience large amounts of trauma relative to that. abuse is fucked up and bad, that isn't a hot take or anything. i recognize that abuse, especially sexual violence, especially sexual violence against a family member is really fucking bad. that being said, this is specifically referring to cases of consensual incestuous relationships between adults.
i have a couple more points (effect of incest on abusive relationships and how that may make it harder to escape them but how that is the fault of the abuse and not an inherent fault of incest and how there's tons of societal complications in all different power dynamics that also make it harder to escape but those aren't criminalized yadda yadda my thoughts are all over the place here bear with me) but i'm gonna leave it there. don't worry no-more-rqs i'm getting sent to superhell for my terrible incest defending right here with you. lol
Just adding that incest as a subject is not inherently âsensitive contentâ and saying that is like saying âwe should censor gay couples in mediaâ
Hi girls, letâs do something! Reblog to this post with a picture of yourself, or a transition timeline if you feel comfortable about it, and things that make you happy and comfortable about yourself! To spread a bit of positivity, and show the girls that are scared that thereâs joy on the other side.
the first two pics are from like 2015, 2016 right before and shortly after i came out to my family. god its been almost 10 years of hormones, that's crazy!!
i also used to hate basically all of myself. i habitually self harmed and would have to cover the mirrors in my apartment for days pre transition
now i get fucking excited to see myself. i love my hair i love my eyes i love the way i feel wearing the clothes that i love. even just slumming in my dysphoria sweats it's night and day. i wasn't living before honestly
Iâm gonna tack on to yours and @k1nky-r0b0t-g1rl because there seems to be a theme with the before and after photos lol
I knew I was a girl at 8 years old but coming to grips with that, explaining it to my family, and seeking acceptance wasnât in the cards back then. I struggled through my teenage years and eventually gave up and decided I would make the best attempt at being the man I was assigned at birth.
Strangely enough I had plenty of times in my life where I liked my appearance. I liked my beard, I liked my hair, the one time I got a little jacked I liked those muscles and how I looked. But I was always sad inside. I thought about suicide at least once a day. I had resigned myself to just never being truly happy and I thought I was okay with that, but a little over 3 years ago that changed and I wanted to at least try to be happy.
Transitioning made me happy inside and out and Iâm proud to be here now. Now I feel like I can truly live my life and be a better wife, friend, and parent than I was ever capable of before.
you wake up on the morning of your birthday, barely. it's 11:45 and your girlfriend has to reheat the waffles and bacon she made you. she hands tou a present. "part one, maybe I should've given it to you yesterday." It's an alarm clock, cute enough, works with your decor the box emphasizes "Extra Loud, the Heavy Sleeper's alarm clock" and related annoying features. you give her a glare and say thanks, unsure what to expect after that.
In the evening. you come home to a little surprise party, your girlfriend and several friends, secret crushes mostly-you can't help but notice. gathered on and around your couch with a movie pulled up, steaming popcorn and other snacks on the table, with some presents and a cake in the next room. after some pleasantries you sit down and ask about tonight's special feature.
your girlfriend gives you a bigger than expected kiss, in front of everyone. and says it's a very special feature, her present for you. the lights get dimmed and everyone tucks in to watch. a light flicks on in the video, revealing your sleeping face. you don't remember ever being filmed in bed. The camera pans over your silhouette in the sheets. your girlfriend's free hand caresses your thigh, and then your head.
cut to another. the lighting slightly different, near dawn maybe? the angle, the gentle touch, a light squeeze of your barely covered breast this time. you blush and glance around, stealing looks at your friend's faces, they're more or less interested but strangely unsurprised. you look back to the tv. the same thing, the cuts are a little more frequent now, the sheets covering less each time. and then you notice. the hand on screen, running her thumb across and into your lips isn't hers. it's not your partner's.
Again you look to your friends, the lighting difference leaves you unsure of anything, until you unmeaningly meet eyes with your best friend, an unmistakable smirk across her face, and a gesture to the tv.
It's your girlfriend again, but the sheets are fully off, she bends down with the camera awkwardly showing part of your face and breasts, and a moment later is showing off the light bite marks she left on your inner thighs, How did you not notice thisâ˝ She plays with you in such a familiar way, pinching your wetness between her fingers for the camera. you wonder if she knows you're wetter now. a glance at her heated expression tells you she does, that she is too. with a kiss on your head there is another cut.
your best friend's head is between your legs, her enthusiasm shocking once again, will nothing wake you? your girlfriend plays with your nipples with her off hand, before brushing the hair out of your friend's face. she smiles for the camera. cut.
another friend. another party attendant. her cock is hilt deep in your mouth. you snore a little, you hear her giggle from the other side of the couch. you can't bring yourself to move, eyes glued to the screen. Over the course of an hour you see every party member use you, the time stamps jumping around a little but mostly linear over the past year and some. you notice there are days your girlfriend has one guest over at midnight and another at 6, there are days your girlfriend isn't even filming. In bed beside you, giving that night's top a sleepy "oh hey Jen, have fun."
The movie pauses and your girlfriend says she's hungry. and asks if you're ready for cake. you wordlessly nod. you notice your best friend's hand in a mutual friend's pants. she licks her fingers before grabbing a plate.
[might write a part 2 on here for easier editing. and just to clarify, my intent, while not explicit, is that the pov fem had talked about boundaries and sexual interest and was open to everything that happens, but hadn't been aware of or explicitly consented to any of it. do with that what you will but its fiction. ]
I dont just want family members to fuck, I dont just want family members to kiss. I want family members to have full romantic relationships with eachother. Ones where they go on dates and flirt and come home after a rough day and complain about work while their family pets their head and maybe half-jokingly offers to burn down their place of employment. And they laugh together knowing they shouldn't, but also knowing they are so ride or die they probably would if you asked seriously. And just that immense comfort of having someone who knows you on practically every possible level, who looks into your eyes and sees all the familial connections but all the intimate connections too...and every single "I love you" carries all of that weight with it, a million words in just three. That's what I want. The sex and kissing is just ways to express all that for me.
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*takes drag from a cigarette and stares off into the horizon* this website is more ready to accept cannibalism as potentially ethical than they are incest
ngl i think itâs more incestuous to like take your sister out on a nice date and be in love with her than to just fuck her. take your sister on dates! make her feel loved! itâs good for sisters!!!
getting too drunk at a party and making out with your sister in front of everyone. climbing into her lap and sucking on her nipples while you grind down on her thigh, forgetting you're not alone. you and your sister cumming all over each other's panties while everyone films you on their phones
I love being polyamorous and a pervert because I get to say things like, âNo no, I married my dog, my daughterâs the one I flirt with online every dayâ
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My irl bunnygirl friend has been recently getting into siscest and this past weekend we officially started calling eachother sis while making out and grinding on each other so that's a massive W
Kate stumbled out to her car, pushing herself into the driverâs seat and slumping behind the wheel. She was so tired she couldnât even bring herself to cry. She just stared ahead, blankly, letting the day wash over her. Hot tears stung her cheeks before she could process, gripping the steering wheel with a white-knuckle grip, breath coming in hot, quick bursts.
By the time she arrived at home, her throat was hoarse from screaming, hands sore from beating her steering wheel at any stop, and her entire body just felt⌠drained. She made her way up to the apartment door, fiddling with keys before the door swung open.
âAh- hey, sweetie,â Kate sighed. The taller woman in the doorway stepped to the side, letting Kate past as she slumped onto the couch, sighing and throwing her purse aside, rubbing at her face. The dark-haired woman dutifully took her purse, hanging it up on the hook beside the door, sitting on the couch opposite her, lounging and looking far more relaxed.
âBad day?â
Kate opened her eyes, looking across the room at her. Sheâd gotten so much older. When did that happen? Her daughter, Raven, had always been a little off-kilter. Kate supposed it was her fault, really. Her father had stepped out before she was old enough to form words, leaving Kate at 16 to raise their child on her own. Quiet and brooding throughout middle and high school, sheâd worried sheâd done something to damage her socialization skills, that not having a father would be bad for her âsonâ, but, no, after high school Raven informed her of what exactly had been on her mind.
Sheâd blossomed quickly, both physically and socially. Her hair had always been blonder than Kateâs, closer to her fatherâs, and so she routinely dyed it black, a wolf cut that hid her eyes, but⌠it suited her. Growing up on the fringes, poor as theyâd been despite Kateâs best efforts, sheâd fallen in with a more⌠dicey crowd. They were all sweet, though, often offering Kate whatever they were smoking and whispering (when they thought Kate couldnât hear) that she was a catch, which was endearing. Sheâd never thought sheâd be a âmilfâ.
 âYeah, sorry,â Kate sighed, sinking a little further into the couch. âItâs⌠nothing to worry yourself about.â
Raven frowned, crossing one leg over the other and folding her arms. âIâm not just going to not ask. You look like a wreck.â
Kate winced at that. Sheâd always tried to look strong, to be good enough to be both parents, but⌠âI know,â she said softly, rubbing at her arm. âIt was⌠not great.â
âTalk about it. Iâm here.â
âHoney, I donât want to vent-?â
âI pay half the rent at this point,â Raven shrugged, falling into a more nonchalant stance, hands behind her head. âTalk to me like Iâm a roommate.â
She chewed her lip anxiously. âIâŚâ She sighed, shaking her head softly. âIt was Mark again.â
âFucking Mark- really? Again? That was the asshole that harassed you last week, too.â
âIt⌠yeah.â She huffed, letting her head fall back. âA customer started saying gross stuff to me, and when I went to get a manager, Mark just took his side and they joked andâŚâ
âYou should call fucking HR! Your manager talking about you like that should be fucking illegal, but at the very least you should get him fired.â
âIf I try, he might fire me,â Kate grimaced, looking away, cheeks burning a bit with shame. âI know itâs awful, but I just have to⌠deal with it.â
Raven huffed, standing and looking like she was about to throw something, fists balled at her side, before she finally sighed, slumping. âWant to order pizza or something? Iâll pay.â
She wanted to protest, offer to throw something at the food, but she just weakly nodded, Raven already pulling out her phone to make the order. Kate felt⌠a little humiliated, but a little grateful, too. She knew that at nearly thirty, Raven wasnât a child anymore. She canât treat her like one or expect her to still be her little girl anymore. She had a big girl job, bringing in half the rent, it made sense for her to take care of things sometimes. Kate didnât have to be the strong one all the time. Even though it hurt.
âAlright, got your usual,â Raven smiled, leaning against the wall next to the couch. âYou ought to go take a shower, get in some comfy clothes or something. Weâll just have a nice couch night.â
Kate laughed softly, feeling her cheeks dust pink. âWhen did you get so doting? Isnât that supposed to be my job?â
âCome on, daughters give their mom like, foot rubs or massages or whatever. Plus we never got the chance to have girls nights growing up, so we can make up for it now, yeah?â
She felt that little prickle of shame up her neck, that she shouldâve known, that she shouldâve done better- she shoved it down, giving a lopsided smile and nodding, standing up off the couch and nearly falling over if not for Raven reaching over and stabilizing her.
âYeesh, careful in the shower if youâre falling all over the place,â Raven laughed, and Kate felt herself go even more red. âGo on, Iâll handle the food and stuff. Just relax.â
She grumbled but complied, off to her room to grab comfy sweatpants and a big t-shirt, then to the shower to wash off the sweat and shame from the day. It did feel nice⌠especially knowing Raven was taking care of everything else. Not having to be the only one supporting the two of them was nice.
Raven had always wanted to help. She learned to cook at an early age, did a lot of the cleaning. It made Kate feel like a shit mom, but⌠it was helpful. It kept her from snapping on more than one occasion. They kept a bit of distance as Raven grew up, but after her coming out that distance closed, slowly but surely.
The hot water was exactly what she needed. Nearly scalding, scrubbing away all of the disgusting thoughts from the day, looking forward to a nice, easy night in. It was the beginning of a rare three-day weekend for her, and she could just sleep in tomorrow morning after stuffing herself with pizza and watching some TV. This was good. No reason to feel guilty.
She put her hair up in a towel as she left the bathroom, pausing in the hallway as Raven held out a glass.
âWine?â she smiled, accepting it gratefully.
âRelaxing night in,â Raven replied, raising her own half-filled glass of red wine and taking a sip. âWeâre unwinding. Câmon, pizzaâs gonna get cold.â
Kate smiled, following her to the couch, sitting cross legged and accepting her pizza, eating slowly as Raven flipped through channels.
âIt kind of feels like a sleepover,â Kate chuckled quietly. âI never went to very many in high school, but⌠pizza and TV. We going to talk about boys next?â
Raven barked out a harsh laugh, flashing her a toothy smile. âIf I swung that way, maybe.â
Right, shit. Kate laughed back, hoping to laugh it off and move past it. Raven was content to drop it, turning her attention back to the TV as Kate took a longer drink of wine. âWhereâd you even get this wine?â Kate frowned. âI havenât bought any.â
âI got some last time I was out,â she shrugged. âI keep some in my room sometimes.â
Kateâs jaw dropped. âRaven!â
âWhat? Iâm twenty-nine, I can drink whenever I want. Iâm not a kid.â
âI- I know! I just⌠itâsâŚ?â
âI can start keeping it in the kitchen?â she asked, giving an appeasing smile. âWould that help, mom?â
A strange feeling curled in her gut but she nodded, relaxing back against the couch. âYes. Very. Thank you.â
âSure.â
They both took another drink, eyes glued to the TV. Why was she feeling so weird? She shook it off, finishing her glass and pouring herself half of another, nursing it close. Things were fine. She was having a nice, relaxing night in, and it was going to be good.
As Raven flipped through, she paused for just half a second on some live action show, two girls up in each otherâs faces, and it looked heated. Â
âThereâs so much more of that now,â Kate mused, a little drunk, words coming somewhat unbidden.
âMm? More of what?â
âYou know. GirlsâŚ?â
âWith other girls?â
âYeah, that,â Kate mumbled, taking another long drink.
âIâm sure there were dykes on TV when you were growing up. Didnât you have like, Xena and Buffy and shit?â
âWell⌠okay, yes, butâŚ?â She hummed, gently drawing her finger around the rim of her glass. âIt was⌠different. It wasnât as popular.â The words poured from her lips before she knew she was saying them. âHonestly, if Iâd had the kinds of shows you do now when I was growing up, I wouldâve been more into women.â
Ravenâs head swung over, eyes fixed on Kate. âOh yeah?â
âI mean girls are pretty,â she shrugged. âIâm not a lesbian or anything, but I can appreciate how pretty girls are.â
Raven pressed. âHow so?â
âWell⌠I mean, shows where they kiss are nice. Girls are shaped a lot more attractive than boys. Lips and⌠hips and all that.â
Raven snorted. âOh, yeah?â
âWhat?â she huffed, setting her wine aside to put her hands on her hips. âAm I wrong?â
âNo, no. Just, it sounds like you like girls.â
âI-! I appreciate them aesthetically. I like boys, you know that.â
âYou are aware you can like both, right?â
She opened her mouth and it snapped shut, almost against her own will. She wanted to protest, but memories she hadnât realized were still in her brain began to resurface. Playing in the yard with a friend, her mother telling her not to get too close. Wanting to join the soccer team and having her father tell her âsheâs not a fucking dykeâ and forcing her to be in choir instead. She shrank into the couch a little, grabbing her wine back up and finishing the second half glass, before reaching for the bottle again.
âYou alright there?â
âMm-? Oh, Iâm⌠fine,â Kate laughed, waving a hand. âAre you going to find something to watch?â
âThat movie we just passed does have good reviews,â she said, turning it back to the one with the girls. âIt did super well in theaters. The tension and all that.â
âWhatâs it about?â
She folded her legs up under her, sipping her wine as Raven began to ramble. She loved talking about movies and games. When Kate had grown up, sheâd always wanted to talk about the stuff sheâd learned, the things sheâd read, and never had anyone to talk to about it. Despite the distance sheâd had with Raven as she grew into her own, she always made sure to listen attentively to her interests. Sheâd heard about most of the PokĂŠmon by now, and knew which shooter games were âthe good onesâ and which ones were "junkâ.
âThe wine is getting to you,â Raven laughed, Kateâs head snapping up.
âWhat? N-no itâs not,â she protested, cheeks flushing. âIs it not getting to you?â
âIâve only had one,â Raven replied, swirling the wine in her glass. âYouâre getting a little flushed.â
âWell⌠maybe itâs the movie,â she huffed, folding her arms.
âOh yeah? So youâre blushing at the girls kissing on TV?â
Her head whipped over, seeing the girls panting into each otherâs mouths and her face went brighter red. âTh-that-! Y-you donât need to be watching this with your mother-!â
âOh, câmon,â she grinned, a little more devious and shit-eating than normal. âI said weâre roommates, right? And you were talking about gossip. So câmon, theyâre cute, right?â
Kate forced her eyes away from Raven and toward the TV, to the two onscreen. A waifish little redhead was melting into the arms of the larger brunette girl. Something about a werewolf, or some⌠curse or something. She was lifting the redhead up now, strong hands under her thighs, pinning her to the wall, pushing her body between her legs as she kissed down her neck, the redhead mewling and clawing at her back.
âI⌠y-yeah,â Kate muttered. âThey are cute, yes.â
âSee? You can totally like both.â Raven beamed, nonchalant as ever, and Kate just gave an awkward little nod. âHonestly that redhead is my type, if a little thin. I like a shortstack.â
Kate shifted nervously, unsure of where her attention should go â the very erotically charged scene on TV, or her daughter who was unabashedly watching them and talking about her taste in women.
âI think the bigger girl is more my style,â she shrugged, deciding to keep her eyes on the screen. âThe way she lifts the little one is attractive.â
âMm, yeah?â
âIâve always gone for taller guys,â Kate shrugged, finishing her⌠fourth? glass of wine, and finally setting it aside. âI like being manhandled.â
Raven cackled. âThere you go! Now thatâs girl sleepover gossip.â She rubbed her chin. âHonestly, Iâve always liked doing the manhandling. Womanhandling? I like smaller girls. When I wasnât out, I thought I was some meek little nerd but now that Iâm on E and actually working out, god, itâs so hot. They just melt for you.â
Kate laughed, high-pitched and nervous. âOh, I bet.â
âYeah?â
âYou do kind have the whole Xena thing going on,â Kate teased with a smile. âI bet girls love it.â
It took Raven a few seconds to respond before giving a low, breathy chuckle. âOh, they definitely do. Theyâre like putty for me.â
âGosh,â Kate sighed, leaning on her hand, watching the girls on TV laugh and finish up their adventure, pulling the movie to a close. âIt does sound nice. Maybe I am also into women.â
âWhat sounds nice, Kate?â
âMm, just⌠having a girl touch me, I guess?â She laughed awkwardly, playing with a strand of her hair. âThatâs weird to say.â
âNot at all. Lots of girls like being touched by girls.â
She chewed her lip. âWell⌠I suppose. But thatâs notâŚ? I donât know. I guess youâre right.â She moved to grab her glass and gasped as she bumped it instead, the empty glass falling to the carpet and cracking, but not shattering. âOh, fuck-!â
âIâve got it, donât worry,â Raven laughed, jumping up and grabbing it, moving to put it away along with the food. âIâll put this away. Sit still for me.â
âOkay,â Kate nodded, obediently resting back in her seat. She didnât register how long Raven stood there, staring, before rushing off to finish what sheâd set out to do. It felt like no time until she returned, her head swimming as she looked up at the dark-haired woman.
âYouâre very drunk,â she said, hand on her hip.
âIâm moderately tipsy,â she argued.
âFine, tipsy, drunk, whatever. We ought to get you to bed.â
âItâs barely late,â Kate groaned, and Raven shot her a look.
âUp, now.â
She rose without thinking, groaning softly, accepting Ravenâs arm around her waist, guiding her toward her bedroom. It was nice. Calming, so warm, brushing up under her t-shirt against the bare skin of her hip. Ravenâs fingers were lightly calloused, both gentle in her grip and firm to keep her from falling over.
âThank you,â she murmured, leaning into Raven. She could feel her swallow hard as she held her close, not responding, just leading her back to her room. She leaned against Ravenâs chest with a humming sigh. She was so big, and warm, and muscular. Like the girl on TV⌠she was like the werewolf girl, so strong and so kind. âYouâre so sweet,â she babbled. âSo, so sweet to me.â
âYou deserve it,â Raven replied, her voice low and warm, brushing over Kateâs face. âYou deserve someone to be sweet to you, Kate.â
âI donât,â she sighed, finally pulling away when they got to her room, throwing herself on the bed. âIâm⌠mmfh. I was a bad mom.â
âNo you werenât,â Raven frowned, sitting on the side of the bed. âWhy would you think that?â
âI⌠I shouldâve known, and helped you come out, and- and I⌠your father was gone, and we never had any money, and I couldnât⌠get you the things you wanted⌠that trip- the one in high school? The one I couldnât afford?â
âHey, hey,â Raven shushed, cupping Kateâs cheek, brushing her thumb over her jawline softly. âItâs alright. You know what? I was happy to spend it here with you instead.â
Kate laughed, watery and desperate, surprised as she started to sniffle, rubbing her face. âThat isnât true and you know it!â she laughed. âYou couldâve been⌠backpacking in Europe or whatever, and you were just here, and I was working andâŚ?â
âAnd helping you is where I wanted to be,â Raven reassured her, both hands cupping her face now. Her eyes were so big and dark, so full of life and love. Surely she hadnât gotten that from Kate? Was that what she looked like, reflected in those big, beautiful eyes?
She whimpered gently. âWhy? I wouldnât have wanted to spend that summer with my mom while my friends were off having fun.â
âKateâŚâ Raven sighed, closing her eyes tight, and Kate wouldâve pouted if she didnât bump their foreheads together softly, nose brushing hers, breath washing over Kateâs face. âI care about you a lot. Iâve watched you struggle your fucking ass off since that deadbeat left us. You never let anyone help, you never let anyone see you when you were struggling â no one but me. I saw every time you stumbled. I watched every time you struggled, and I wanted to do something so fucking bad. Iâm so happy to help you, now.â
When she opened her eyes, it was like Kate could breathe again. Why were her eyes so intoxicating? Was Raven crying? She shouldnât cry. She was too wonderful and beautiful to cry. What was she supposed to do? She saw a girl crying earlier⌠on TVâŚ? What stopped herâŚ?
She pushed forward, closing the very short gap, smashing her lips to Ravenâs. The girl was still cupping her cheeks, her face close, and she didnât move. She didnât respond, didnât react⌠Kate pulled away softly. Thank goodness. She wasnât crying anymore. But she looked⌠concerned, andâŚ?
âOh, god,â Kate gasped, pulling back and away. Oh fuck. âI-? S-sweetie, I- Iâm so, so sorry, Iâm- Iâm drunk, oh god, please, I didnât mean-?â
Raven grabbed Kateâs wrist softly, her voice was cracking, her face filled with a number of complex emotions that Kate couldnât begin to parse. âCan we do it again? Please?â
âR-Raven, honeyâŚ?â
âPlease, Kate.â She was practically panting, face flushed. âPlease, just a little. I wonât⌠I wonât tell, please, I⌠I needâŚâ
Her hands moved from Kateâs, gently grabbing her waist under her shirt, calloused fingers digging into the skin needily as she squirmed. Her body was reacting far stronger than it shouldâve, muscles tensing, cheeks and chest flushing red, thighs sticky.
âRaven,â Kate whined softly. âRaven, we⌠youâre m-?â
âYour roommate, remember?â she tried, grinning. âMaybe itâll make things complicated, but if you want this⌠w-we can. We can, if we want.â
Her head was spinning. âDo you?â
âIâŚâ Her fingers started to leave Kateâs sides, and Kate instinctively moved her hands to clamp down on them, keeping her firmly on her hips. She looked up from her hands to Ravenâs wide, wild eyes. They mustâve been mirroring her own. She knew that now. The way her pupils were blown out with need, jaw hanging open just slightly, hot breath mingling with Kateâs own.
It was stupid. It was an incredibly stupid thing. But, fuck⌠her day had been so horrible. The things the men said about her at the store, the customer and her boss⌠and no one else was kind to her like Raven. No one else took care of her. No one else got her wine and pizza and held her so close like she needed her to breathe.
Kate was so, so tired⌠tired of being strong, tired of being an adult, tired of being treated like dirt. Raven wanted to treat her like a princess. She could really, really use that.
âOkay,â she whispered. She could practically feel the veil of tension around them shatter as she did. Cracks forming in the air, and through them, not her daughter, but Raven, a woman closer to her age than she had any right to be, beautiful and strong and wanted her. âOkay, just⌠Iâve⌠neverâŚ?â
âWith a girl, yeah,â Raven laughed, husky and breathless. âIâll be gentle, Kate. Donât worry.â
The statement alone made her go bright red, but Raven pushing her into a firm, steady kiss sent her up and over what sheâd expected. Those warm hands ran up her sides, blunted nails brushing against sensitive skin, and when Raven reacted to a kiss she fucking reacted. She was grunting and moaning, lips hot and wet against Kateâs own, her tongue occasionally prodding questioningly until Kateâs lips parted to accept it and holy fuck she tasted so good, so hot, so forward.
She let her arms fall around Ravenâs shoulders, pulling her in close as the dark-haired girl groaned, grabbing her tight around the waist and pulling Kate into her lap, chests pressed together through thin fabric. As she settled in, she felt Raven through her sweatpants and oh god, she hadnât thought about that any more than something in passing before. She pushed her tongue weakly against Ravenâs, and was rewarded with the feeling of a hot, warm twitching between her legs and she shivered hard, melting into her.
Raven just held her, close and safe, kissing her hard and exploring her sides with her hands, mapping out every little inch like she was some precious work of art. All the men sheâd ever been with had made her feel wanted, but never cherished, not like this. Raven touched her like she was lucky to be with her, not out of obligation. She was a reward. Kate could feel herself panting and moaning into her daughterâs mouth, her hips bucking hard at the realization and use of the word. Deep in her brain, she chastised herself for being a pervert, but the second Ravenâs hands moved to her chest, it all melted away.
She sounded like such a slut. Like that girl in the movie, as Raven massaged and pinched and rolled her nipples between her fingers, she mewled and whined and crumpled against her chest, taking heaving, gasping breaths and grinding down hard. Ravenâs mouth moved to Kateâs neck, kissing and biting softly, sharp enough that Kate knew she was leaving little marks all up and down the soft flesh.
âRaven,â she whined, tangling her fingers in her hair.
âHow is it?â Raven growled in her ear, giving the lobe a little nibble.
âG-good, feels⌠really goodâŚâ
âYeah⌠thatâs a good girlâŚâ
Kate cried out at that, clinging and whining and arching her back softly, blushing as she hid her face in Ravenâs neck.
âOhh? Listen to that. You like when I call you a good girl, baby?â
âNnhâŚ!! W-wait, thatâsâŚâ
âYou work so hard, sweetheartâŚâ Kate blinked in surprise, feeling Raven growling against her neck in a way that was almost a purr. Her fingers were on Kateâs back now, clawing little lines down it in a soft, tender way as she planted warm, loving little kisses up her jaw. âYouâre so good for me. Youâre wonderful, Kate. Youâre such a good girlâŚâ
âNngh⌠aahh⌠y-yeahâŚâ she blushed, hiding deeper and nipping at Ravenâs neck softly, exploratory. âTh-thank youâŚâ
âGo on and say it, baby.â
âIâŚ!â
âIf you do, Iâll give you more.â She accentuated her point by grabbing Kateâs hips, grinding her down against her, drawing a whimper from Kate as she realized sheâd nearly soaked through her sweatpants.
âI⌠I-I, I donâtâŚ?â
âSay youâre a good girl, Kate.â
She whined, closing her eyes tight. âIâm⌠a good⌠girlâŚâ
Kate cried out and gasped as Raven grabbed her, throwing her up the bed and climbing over her, shucking her t-shirt off with one swift movement and tugging her pants down with the next, kissing wetly over her chest as she squirmed and groaned.
âGod damn youâre so gorgeous,â Raven whispered as she ran her tongue over Kateâs nipple, her dark eyes darting up to meet Kateâs. âYouâre the prettiest girl Iâve ever seen.â
âTh-thatâs not true-!â she gasped, moving to push Ravenâs head away but finding herself tangling her fingers in her hair, tugging her closer, more encouraging. âI⌠Iâve seen the girls you talk to, and⌠some of the ones you bring byâŚâ
Raven laughed, a warm, rough sound that tickled Kateâs stomach. âNone of those have anything on you. I promise. My good girl.â
She whined at that, legs kicking involuntarily before Raven grabbed one, thumb digging into the tender flesh of her thigh as she moaned, louder than before, rolling her head back. Raven hummed at that, moving both hands to her thighs, slowly massaging her thighs as she whimpered and cried out hard, thrashing.
âNnhh! R-Raven, itâsâŚ!â
âIf itâs too much, tell me to stop.â
âI-it⌠hurts goodâŚâ
âAtta girl. Youâre so responsive for me. Thank you, sweetheart.â
She was losing her mind. She felt like she was going insane. This⌠wasnât right. Kateâs daughter moved down her chest to her stomach, giving moaning kisses and wanton licks as she grinned up at her, moving down and down. Raven, who Kate had given birth to, was licking and sucking and biting Kateâs thighs now, growling to herself, her own hips rocking further down, grinding needily against the bed. Oh god. She was about to-
âAsk for it,â Raven demanded, looking up at her. Her breath was hot against Kateâs dripping sex, so fucking close, so close she could nearly feel it, but⌠not touching. Not yet. Not unless Kate asked her daughter to eat her out. Jesus.
âIâŚ? I-IâmâŚâ
Ravenâs lust-clouded eyes cleared just a bit and she pulled back. âHey. Itâs okay, Kate. If youâre not ready for this, I underst-â
âPlease,â Kate whispered, grabbing a pillow and hiding behind it. âPlease please please please please.â
Raven paused, then laughed hard, and while Kate couldnât see from behind the pillow, she felt her tongue slowly lap along her slit before swearing and pushing into her. Kate cried out hard, legs wrapping around Raven and digging her heels into her back, giving her the leverage to fuck up against her daughterâs face as Raven hummed happily. One of her hands held Kateâs hips, the other moved up to slowly rub circles over her thumb as she growled and moaned against her motherâs cunt, lapping at her like she was the first drink in the desert.
No one had ever touched her like this. Men had fucked her, sure, used their fingers and their cocks, but it was always methodical, mechanical, in and out and done. Sheâd⌠she wasnât proud, but sheâd done some sex work to keep Raven in school. Sometimes sheâd met men at their houses, sometimes they came over while Raven was away, but it always felt disgusting and obligatory. This was neither.
Despite the fact that Raven was her flesh and blood daughter, it felt better than anything sheâd ever felt in her life. She felt more love and care with each long, moaning lick than with all the men sheâd been with put together. Every circle of her clit â which was the first time someone other than Kate had touched it! â was pushing her toward her own pleasure, not Ravenâs. She could cry- she was crying now, sobbing with need, hot tears spilling down her cheeks as she abandoned the pillow, no longer trying to hide. She wanted to hold Ravenâs hair, push her down, feel her inside her, fuck, she NEEDED her so BADLY.
Raven looked up with the most love Kate had ever seen in anyoneâs eyes, and she wished she could kiss her. She wished she could be kissing her at the same time Raven ate her needy cunt, but they both wanted to stay right here, right now, maybe forever. Something inside of Kate was crumbling, very, very slowly. That need to be the strong one, the caretaker, the one administering love and never receiving it, was slowly being replaced with something new, and a little scary.
âTell me when youâre going to cum.â It was the one time Raven lifted off of her, and only for a second, Kate nodding hard and babbling out promises before Raven returned to her job, humming and working her expertly. It took a while, honestly. Kate wasnât sure how long they were there, but time seemed to stretch and dilate as she rolled her hips, fucking Ravenâs face, her pussy almost sore from the attention when the strain in her body started to reach a fever pitch, her core tightening.
âR-Raven, Iâm close, Iâm closeâŚâ she whispered. The dark-haired girl smiled, nodding, and slowly slipped a finger into Kate, working her in and out as Kate whimpered and squirmed, twisting the sheets in her hands hard. Ravenâs finger brushed against a spot Kate had never touched in her life, and she started to see stars, gasping and bucking and sweating, and then Raven added a second finger and Kate screamed, fully and truly, not giving a damn if anyone in the other apartments heard, tightening around Ravenâs fingers and clenching in waves that rippled through her entire body, darkening and brightening her vision in equal measure.
Finally she gasped, collapsing to the bed, chest heaving as she caught her breath. She was so out of it, so dizzy, that she hadnât realized Raven had stepped away until she was back with a big glass of water. Her shirt was off now and Kate could see the long happy trail leading down into her pants, as well as how heavy her bare breasts were. Was that hormones? God they had done a number on her. Raven was the most gorgeous woman sheâd ever seen.
Kate accepted the water, drinking it down eagerly and panting, the liquid cooling down her body as she hummed happily. As soon as Raven set it aside, Kate pulled her down toward her, locking her into a firm kiss as she moaned, Raven chuckling against her mouth.
They kissed for a while before Raven broke away, smiling and stretching.
âI ought to let you get to bed,â she sighed, scratching her neck. âYouâre still probably pretty drunk.â
âWhat are you talking about?â Kate frowned, meeting Ravenâs eyes.
âHuh?â
She put on a performative pout. âYouâre just going to tease me and leave? After all that grinding?â She leaned forward toward Raven, putting on a sultry voice she hadnât used since high school: âYouâre not even going to fuck me, Raven?â
It earned her another throw onto the bed with a satisfied and surprised squeak, Raven grabbing her ankles and pulling her toward the edge of the bed. She grabbed the water, downing the rest of it as she dropped her pants and holy fucking shit. Kate had read about estrogen and she hormones made things shrink. Was Raven bigger than this before hormones?
âLook at you, slack-jawed and needy,â Raven grinned, looming over her. âWhat a little slut. You want this cock so bad, donât you, pretty girl?â
The groan she let out was different from the one when Raven praised her for being a good girl. It was more guttural, more needy. âPleaseâŚ? Your fingers and mouth felt so good, but I needâŚâ
âYou need to be filled,â Raven said, matter-of-factly, pulling Kateâs legs up to her chest and slowly grinding between her legs. God. When she slid between Kateâs thighs, it went halfway to her belly button and was so fucking thick. God. âSay it.â
âI need to be filled,â Kate said, quickly, obediently.
âThatâs my girl. Tell me how bad you want it.â
âReally, really bad,â she whispered, biting her lip. âFuck, Iâm wet. Youâre so big, RavenâŚâ
The girl blushed dark red and laughed, rubbing her face. âI guess so. Maybe youâve just been with a bunch of losers.â
Kate shook her head hard. âIâve been with longer guys. You look⌠perfect.â She took a breath, forcing her eyes away from their legs up to Ravenâs eyes. âLike you were built for me.â
Raven did not waste any more time bending her nearly in half, lining her cock up against Kateâs cunt, and slowly pushing in. Kate whined and gasped, clawing at the sheets and squirming until she found a comfortable spot. Her eyes rolled back, her hips bucked, and she could already feel herself cumming before Raven was fully buried in her.
âGod youâre such a slut,â she growled. âMaybe you were built for me. The perfect little cocksleeve.â Kate had never heard her be so vulgar. She just let out a strangled, whining cry as Raven pushed in deeper, harder, slowly pulling out and slamming back in. She picked up speed as she went, slowly beginning to piston into Kate with a rhythmic grunting. âSay thank you.â
âYou sound so pretty⌠Keep talking while I fuck youâŚâ
Her tongue was out like an animal in rut and Kate couldâve passed out right then and there. Both ankles held in one hand by the much larger girl, towering over her and stretching her so good, her brain was starting to melt a little.
âPlease, fuck me, oh god, RavenâŚâ she whimpered, complying with her request. âPlease, god, I need you so fucking bad, I want you to fuck me forever, nnghâŚ! Mmfh, Iâm all yours, forever, you can do whatever you want as much as you want, I donât care, just never stop making me feel like thisâŚâ
âI wonât, I swear, I wonât, Kate,â Raven growled, biting down on her shoulder as Kate cried out. âTell me what you want.â
âI want you!! I want you so bad, Raven, Iâve wanted you so fucking bad, I need your cock, I need you to fuck me I⌠I n-needâŚâ Something cracking. Breaking. âFuck, oh godâŚâ Broken. âKnock me up, Raven, please,â she begged, a primal need bubbling out. âOh fuck please fill me up, please, get me pregnant I need you to get me pregnant so badâŚâ
âHoly fuck, thatâs it, good girlâŚâ Raven laughed, fucking her faster, harder, pushing gasping whines from Kateâs throat, so hard she could barely breathe. âIâm going to. Iâm going to get you so fucking pregnant. Youâre never ever gonna leave, are you, good girl?â
âP-please keep⌠calling me⌠that!â
âGood girl? You like that, precious? My good girl? My little princess?â
âOh fuck, mommy, please knock me up!!â
There was a flicker of a moment of near complete silence, so utter and complete that you could hear a pin drop from a mile away. Both womenâs eyes snapped open at the realization, wide as dinnerplates, sensing the intense thing looming over them, crashing into them, and destroying what was in favor of what now is.
Raven kissed Kate hard, tongue pushing into her mouth violently, hips slamming into her as Kate screamed and squeaked and clawed up Ravenâs back, pinning the little thing over in half as she buried herself in her one last time, growling and crying out in Kateâs mouth as she came, filling her so completely that some spilled out, holding her down and keeping her still so that she didnât slip out.
A minute passed, then a second, and then Kate started to cry. Silent, hot tears, then sniffles, then a soft sobbing and into a wailing as Raven pulled her close, stroking her hair gently.
âItâs okay,â she whispered, pushing a kiss into Kateâs forehead. âItâs okay. Breathe, little one. Mommaâs got you. Iâm never letting you go again.â
Kate wailed and sobbed hard, clinging against Ravenâs chest, her own heaving with gasping cries, feeling what little sense and sanity she had left spilling from her, leaving like the tide. In its place was an intense need, a tying bond, and a realization that she didnât need to be strong anymore. Ever again.
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