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Kris cannot catch a fucking break can they ππ
Started using the phrase βthatβs cilantro to meβ to refer to the presence of a story element that completely ruins a piece of media for me, disproportionate to its actual badness.
give it up for girls with vaginas and boys with penises
pause i forgot cis people exist this was intended as a celebration of bottom surgery
i have a lot of thoughts on deltarune chapter 5, but more than anything, itβs made one thing very clear
deltarune > undertale
like. on every level. i am immensely proud of toby fox and how much heβs grown both in storytelling and game design.
my reason for writing this was pretty balanced between gameplay and story, but i do want to point out one story thing -
noelle. noelle has become such an interesting character.
i always felt there was more going on with her in the weird route than just "being scared cuz she's manipulated by the player." not saying that isn't happening - but its not her only thing. it never was. so chapter five was very validating of my read of her.
basically, ever since the initial snowgrave route, my idea of noelle has been... complicated.
in both normal and weird routes, the game has a lot to say about the subject of noelle and power. noelle feeling weak and without agency. her dad wishes she wasn't "so helpless." queen thinking noelle is strong, but must become a "willing peon" (hi weird route foreshadowing). until that actually happens, at which point noelle has awakened "too much" for queen's taste.
anyway. my point is. noelle's relationship with power and doing what she wants is interesting. she also cares deeply about her self-perception. she doesn't want to seem "weird." she flushes at admitting to liking scary things. she cares about having the "right" reactions. yet... even back in chapter 2, it didn't feel like she was just horrified by what happened in the weird route. not when she reacts like this.
that slight smile has lived in my head rent-free since 2021. that was her initial reaction. only later did she act horrified. just like after initial violent thoughts, she had to talk herself down. after freezing one of the addisons, she denies what she did... but then says this.
and for being a route in which we manipulate her actions... isn't it interesting that what we're trying to do, is make her stronger? isn't that odd? in most stories of this kind of manipulation, the point is to break the person. not give them some twisted power.
anyway. what's my point here?
i used to be quiet about this read. i thought people with an "abuse metaphor" read of the weird route would hate me for this. and please know, i still think we/the player are manipulating her. but even in chapter two, i never thought that read fully appreciated noelle as a character. if that's all you see, it treats noelle more like a prop than a person. and i think noelle's pov is more complex than that.
because... i always thought a part of her liked it. she liked the sense of power. she liked "getting stronger." but she didn't want to admit it.
where else would these thoughts come from? and the smiles? why would she gradually, throughout chapter two, seem to enjoy it more? why would she know ice shock from the start, if that feeling wasn't already inside her? snowgrave is just a stronger version of ice shock, after all. it's evolving that feeling, rather than creating it from nothing.
this is cut dialogue from the aborted weird route in chapter five. dubiously canon, i know. but how i see it is this: even if you dont see it through, a part of her still feels this way. she still craves power.
so, what would tie all of that together with her horror?
it feels like a lot of noelle's story is about repression more than abuse. both in the regular and weird routes. repressing herself. repressing her power, her wants and needs. making herself quiet to please others. it's not all that dissimilar to ralsei, who doesn't think they should ever break the rules. the difference is that noelle didn't know she could.
but now that she does?
of course, the method of "bringing out her power" IS still manipulative. you are taking her somewhere very dark. somewhere she may not come back from. it still has an element of abuse - it gives power, but removes agency. she still needs the player to give the word. and the whole scenario is inherently violent, because that's how you "get stronger" in this route. while it's not a "genocide route", it does operate on the typical RPG logic of defeating enemies = getting stronger.
you tell her it's "natural" to have violent thoughts. you encourage it. and you force noelle's hand in ways she struggles to protest.
an interesting thing in chapter two, as well - when she thinks about hurting kris, she tries to discourage herself. of course that's bad to think. but we tell her its natural. we push that side of her. thats another odd wrinkle if you think the point is just abuse, right? we don't just make her attack others. we also encourage violent thoughts towards us.
when she gets access to snowgrave, she acts like she doesn't know it exists. and when she freezse berdly? she walks offscreen, like she always could have. and says there was so much snow, she didn't see anything. and then tells herself it was all a dream.
the emotion i read here isn't horror per se. it's denial. noelle never acted like she didn't know what a menu option was before. she never acted like ice shock wasn't there. and when berdly is comatose in the light world, her reaction isn't to make sure he's ok. it's to run away and reassure herself it didn't happen. that she isn't that person. she didn't smile at the thought of getting stronger. even here, in her denial - she's less concerned with him, than she is with who she is.
and to that, the player says to proceed. that violent thoughts are natural. that violent actions are natural. that she should get stronger.
so my question, in chapter two, was not whether we were manipulating her. we were! my question was whether there was more going on. whether, despite our cruelty, this was still freeing to her. that she smiled for a reason. that she had to talk herself out of violent thoughts for a reason. that we were bringing forth a repressed side of her.
and then chapter five happened. not only did she crave this power, she DID attain it when she cast snowgrave. her horror wasn't really about berdly, but about being afraid of this side of herself. being afraid of enjoying being like this.
now, she's finally ready to admit it.
look, i understand if some people feel this is too edgy a take. that some of this may just be cope on noelle's part. that she felt used, but re-framed it as getting stronger. that this isn't really "who she is", but rather her way of reclaiming a sense of agency over her abuser.
but even if that is your take? in the end, it doesn't matter. because now, she can make you come with her. she can proceed, even if you say stop.
it's a well-known theory that deltarune is partially about escapism. that however you feel wronged or disempowered by your real life, the dark world can be different.
but that doesn't have to be just "nice" things, like getting to be in fun environments where you're surrounded by friends. it can also be - much like the player who chooses violence in any game - the freedom to be cruel. the freedom to value power above friendship.
another important theme in deltarune is destiny, and trying to defy it. the prophecy being set in stone. nobody can choose who they are in this world. your choices don't matter. kris is the player's cage. disempowerment is everywhere, and you don't know whether anything you do can change fate.
noelle seems to feel the same way, in her everyday life. because a noelle is just a noelle. nothing changes.
but nobody said defying destiny would necessarily make things better.
maybe you're so desperate to escape, you're willing to become worse. just to feel like you have the power to change things. just to finally free the side of you that isn't following your set path. maybe you're willing to freeze everyone just to feel a fire inside you.
this dialogue only happens in chapter four if you're on the weird route. do with that what you will.
for the record - i'm not saying noelle is "evil." far from it. but i think her helplessness after what happened to dess, and living under an overbearing, controlling mother (carol probably got worse after dess disappeared), only doing what you're "supposed" to do, repressing everything else about yourself... ultimately, it can make a person desperate for power. for escape. in any form.

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every chapter of deltarune has a secret npc who only appears if you leave and re-enter the room 1225 times while you have a bagel in your seventh inventory slot and the npc is a sentient doorknob and when you talk to them the music cuts out and theyβre like βwhoβs that whispering in the trees, itβs two sailors and theyβre on leave, pipes and chains and swinging hands, whoβs your daddy, yes i amβ and then within four hours thereβs a thirty minute long video on youtube titled βASGORE IS FRIEND??? DADDY THEORY EXPLAINEDβ and it already has 100,000 views and then a year later people call the next chapter disappointing because it was focusing too much on developing the main characters instead of explaining the doorknob guy
Despite everything, it's still you.
btw, just so its said - i think the roaring knight is dess. i feel like most other theories exist because people have gotten bored with the most 'obvious' answer lol. but its the one that makes the most narrative sense.
π π§‘
- fading by like a sunset in my hand
The deltarot got me
okay gang, this is a big ask but i'm hoping anyone has any idea: what's a good post or video out there discussing the intersection of morality and agency in deltarune?
there's a lot of talk about agency on its own (defying prophecy, kris being controlled, ralsei forcing themselves to follow "the rules"), but i would love to see a discussion of how it intersects with the story's morality. how the player seemingly has this "good" goal of saving the world, while kris seemingly wants to start the roaring. it fits into noelle analysis, too - despite being a victim of the players control, she seems to enjoy being "freed" from her repressed nature by "becoming stronger." even if it means a paradoxical loss of agency.
(btw, this isnt me endorsing the players control or the weird route lol. far from it. i just think its cool that deltarune is showing this more complex situation instead of framing the player as a one-note villain. but agency is important, regardless of whether the outside force controlling you wants you to do something "good" or "bad.")

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it would be very weird and jarring if every chapter of deltarune after chapter 3 were all uniformly heavy and lore-focused
being norwegian right now is pretty fun ngl, you can just shout RO!!! and everyone's with you
βMy escapism is better than your escapism!!!β
"what if someone regrets transitioning" if you are 18 or over in free country usa you can walk into any tattoo parlor and ask for a tattoo that will be on your body forever and ever and ever and they will give it to you with the understanding that if you dont like the result or you regret it later that's your fucking problem and not theirs
i'm on the fence on whether i think ralsei will end up canonically transfem, but the argument that its bad because "stereotypical gender roles" is pretty funny when mettaton exists. diva is the cuntiest gnc trans man alive, who is not scared of pink or dresses. toby fox outwoked a Lot of people with that one lol. even now, people struggle to grasp the idea that trans men can do whatever and don't all need to be super masc.
so if he ends up writing a more "typical" trans rep in ralsei, i don't think that's a bad thing. he's already shown that being trans =/= following gender roles.

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*(SAY IT!)
To put it very bluntly.
You will always make a better impact helping people who need it than trying to hurt people you think deserve it.