Choice words from Thedas' citizens

Yes, but it is possible for a better new system to be put in place, though - like you point out - it would also involve a change in the very culture of Thedas.  Not just to protect the mages from the fear of ordinary people, which doesn’t just ‘justify’ the imprisonment of mages in the minds of a lot of citizens (and without their silent consent the Chantry would not be able to wield its power over mages), and moves some to attack mages out of fear, but also seems to make mages themselves more vulnerable to become an abomination. (Considering how the Avvar feel about and live with magic.)

I do, but the thing to remember is that the reason there are similarities is because both these universes borrow from real life. They use what happens to oppressed groups in real life and use that for their stories, so any similarity is because these are the things that happen to real people.

But yes I agree there’s a similarity between the Circle and the registry; the idea of registries or the phylacteries boils down to the same thing: they’re this silent threat to these oppressed groups that if they ever try to resist their treatment, they can be found, the templars and the sentinels then serve as the threat that if they are found that they will be killed. (+ no one will care because everyone has been told from birth how ‘dangerous’ these groups are. Especially those who do not comply with the normal order of things.)

The major difference in these fantastical stories compared to real life oppression, and the reason why neither mages nor mutants are perfect reflections of actual oppression, is that  both these groups (if their members united) can be much more dangerous than ‘ordinary’ citizens, which makes the idea of things like the Circle and the mutant registry much more palatable. To some people.

(It makes the discussion more difficult because while in real life you can point to statistics (from reputable sources), we can’t say ‘there were only 2 magic related deaths this year among the Avvar compared to 1500 among nations with Circles, so the circle does not work), the narrative is muddled to the point you could argue mages really are dangerous enough to warrant inhumane treatment. I don’t agree, but I can see how you’d make that argument.)

Sentinels and Templars (though I don’t know enough about who commissioned the Sentinels to say for sure) are used by people/ organisations who are looking to grow their own power by playing up the threat of the mutants/ mages. The templars as they stand now are nothing but the Chanty’s weapon to protect their power (yes they rebelled in da:i but I’m not betting on Bioware really changing anything in da4 I’m quite certain it’ll just be mages and templars again but I hope I’m wrong). Were they once a noble order? Personally I think not, I think they were always meant as nothing more than the instrument to give the Chantry power, to grow it and protect it.

The circle began when: “In 1:20 Divine, the Chantry and the Inquisition signed the Nevarran Accord, and created the Circle of Magi to regulate the use and systematic training of magic throughout Thedas. The Templar Order  was created to catch mages who refused to join the Circle ( ... ) As magic had been the source of the Imperium's power, it was all but banned when the Chantry became the new dominant force in Thedas,”

You can see what that sounds like, right? The Chantry consolidated the largest source of power in Thedas and banned it to be used anywhere outside of their control. In other words, the mages are used as scape goats as well by the Chantry to grow their power. You’d see how that would work, how seductive it is to listen to the Chantry when they say ‘magic is the cause of all your problems, let us protect you.’

This of course is exactly what happens in real life as well: you wait until a lot of people are miserable, then you choose a minority group to blame, you play up any crime committed by a member of that group and pretend it’s something inherent to their group, than when you get everyone nice and scared you get them angry, and then you say you’re the only one who can protect them from that group and make the world a better place.

What it leaded to in DA2? I don’t know what you mean really. Unless you mean Anders’ actions, but he wasn’t acting with any other mages. And at the end of the game he was so fused with Justice I don’t think we can even be sure he would’ve acted the same way if he were just himself. Also, what it lead to? It led to the mages - who did not do anything - all going to be killed because of it, well actually Meredith had already sent for the right of annulment before Anders’ actions so... yeah I can’t really see how I’m meant to blame mages for that? There are a few instances in da2 when mages do bad things, but they’re always a reaction to the insane amount of abuse in that circle.

And what do you mean in da:i? In what way are they ‘rebuilding the Tevinter Imperium’? Please send in another ask because I don’t get it? I might be missing something?

I do agree that the Chantry could’ve avoided the whole thing, but it would have meant an entire restructuring of the Circle, not just ‘being a little more lenient’. The Circle would have to stop being a prison and become an actual place where mages can be save and learn in safety. And I don’t think the Chantry would ever be willing to do so, considering how much power and money they would lose.

I view the question of ‘templars vs mages’ as simply this: are the horrors of the circle a justified necessary evil to protect the rest of the population from the possible crimes, or accidental destruction caused by mages?

That’s the only question that matters. That’s where the true grey morality of this issue comes in. Do you think the chantry is right that mages are so inherently dangerous that they need to be held prisoner their entire lives? That the Chantry has the right to decide which of them need to be made tranquil, or punished in other ways, and which entire circles get to be murdered down to the last child?

My answer is always going to be no. That’s why I support the mages. Always. And not just because we’ve already seen more peaceful solutions in game.

Just think about it, in the real world if we determine which groups are most likely to commit violent crimes, would you support pre-emptively locking them up? (Remember, modern day weapons can be as dangerous as any magic we’ve seen in game.)Probably not.

And let’s be clear, even a circle where there is no abuse is still a horrific idea in principle:

- Being locked up the rest of your life

- cut of from family

- not allowed to go outside 

- not allowed to form romantic attachments

- not allowed to have a family (and having any child you might have taken away from you)

- living with armed men instructed to kill you if you necessary 

- being constantly told you’re basically a walkign bomb so dangerous the world needs to be protected from you

- Living with the threat of the right of annulment your whole life

- Living with the threat of being made tranquil (yes yes, until you pass a horrifying test, unless you live in one of the circles that ignore that rule and oh yes the chantry and the circle has a huge monetary incentive to make you tranquil or suggest you allow them to make you tranquil even before the test)

Even if this prison - and it is a prison no matter how cosy the beds - doesn’t suffer from any abuse of power it’s still a horror show. But then I don’t think there will be a circle with no abuse. Just because predatory people are often dawn to positions where they can enact abuse and get away with it and the circle is the perfect place; no one gives a shit about the mages. Also, the only circles we’ve seen in game have been abusive, I find it odd to presume there must be a perfect circle where there is only the horrors of it being a prison.

And I haven’t even gotten into the whole idea that the Chantry makes money off making people tranquil, which kinda motivates them to make more mages tranquil, if only to keep the money flowing. Or that if the Chantry ever admitted that mages don’t need constant surveillance it means they will either have to admit that the templars are mainly there to be the Chantry’s military arm, or cut down on how many templars there are, and so weaken the Chantry’s power. (That’s what I mean when I say getting rid of the Circles would cost the Chantry too much.)

On the subject of ‘trying to rebuild the Tevinter Imperium’, I have to say the abuses of the Tevinter Imperium are not caused by magic, so assuming a society where Mages are free and able to be in positions of power, is going to be ‘like the Tevinter Imperium’ is just not how it works.

Slavery isn’t something exclusive to magic (well using spirits as slaves as well might be), and (blood) magic, is just the tool they use to enact their cruelty. If they had no magic they would find other ways. And to be frank, while I’m sure the other nations we have seen in game would claim moral superiority over Tevinter, I don’t think they can. Look at the way they treat the elves? Look at what the Chantry has done? Profiting off making people tranquil, making Templars addicted to something they control?

Also, remember the elves being sold into slavery in da:o? Do you think that was the only time that happened? It seems pretty unlikely doesn’t it?

So yes Tevinter is horrible, but I think the problem with saying ‘they want to rebuild the Tevinter Imperium’ is that it fails to recognise that the other nations have their own horrors and that depending on who (or what race) you are in Ferelden or Orlais, your life might already be as bad as that of the lowliest person in Tevinter.

It’s easy to judge the mage rebellion for causing too much destruction etc etc, but it’s not like the Chantry would ever have willingly let them go. The mages were pushed in a corner, they didn’t one day decide that they would cause this. I would love it if peaceful revolution was possible but it isn’t. It’s always a question of what are you willing to sacrifice to gain your freedom.

DA:I could have been a great morally muddled story about what is justified in the name of revolution, of freedom. It could’ve shown us a mage rebellion where some are forced to fight, where some mages only take revenge for the abuse they suffered, while others desperately tried to find peaceful ways to change the world. It could have shown us templars being pushed to the edge by the chantry, and those who gleefully hunt and kill mages. It could’ve shown us exactly how much it costs templars to break with the Chantry.

Cullen does to a degree show us and in DA2 we had Samson, but I would’ve liked something like a Knight-Captain who objected morally to the abuses of the Chantry, tried to reason with them to go against amoral orders and ended up with the Chantry cutting off his lyrium supply so he was forced to watch the templars under his command suffer and a few of them die. Actually that would’ve made a great quest that with show us exactly how little control templars really have.

I’m just going to end with some links with more information on the mages and the Circle/ Chantry/ templars. I think all these help to get the whole picture on the situation for mages, necessary to understand why revolution was unavoidable (and before you judge their rebellions as ‘going too far.’) 

1. A post discussing why Anders did what he did and why other options weren’t available. I’m not entirely decided on whether I support Anders’ actions myself, but this is an interesting read on why the mages had to rebel to gain any power and why it’s difficult to judge them for it. It also touches on more abuses of the Chantry.

2. A post with a number of reactions to the idea of the Circle being ‘a nice place’ which it can’t be by its very nature. Also mentions some other abuses that will happen in even ‘peaceful circles’ like Anders’ punishment of solitary confinement for a year, which is literal torture and if you want to understand to what extent a quick google search will do on why solitary confinement is torture.

3. A great post about why tranquility is not a mercy and in fact a system that is incredibly vulnerable to abuse (and not just in da2). Also touches on how the Circle provides the Chantry with funds (and so power, which of course makes their ‘magic is evil we will protect’ you bs stink a little more.)

4. A post discussing why not all templars can ‘just stop taking lyium’ which helps to show that they’re basically trapped in this system as well.

5. A post combining resources about the abuses the mages face in da2, I’d recommend reading it even if you feel you know all of them already because I’ve played da2 many many times and I was surprised by some of these. Also remember that just because this is the worst circle we’ve seen it does not mean the abuses are unique to this circle.

6. A post explaining more about the Chantry and why it needs its military arm, and how it abuses that power. ties in to how they can’t admit that mages don’t need constant surveillance without either admitting the real use of templars.

7. A post about the theory that templars aren’t meant to protect mages but are meant to make sure there aren’t too many mages. (In other words, they are there to kill mages.) I don’t necessarily agree with everything in the post, though it does make sense that the Chantry would limit how many mages there are in any one circle to prevent an uprising. Still the post contains some interesting discussions about the templars tactics and how they don’t make sense if they’re meant to just protect mages. This of course does not mean every day templars are aware of what the real order are and I imagine there are templars who truly believe they are meant to protect mages.

“Spent most of my dwarf-related confession on solas so I’m redoing my gripe. I’m disappointed with how dwarves were handled in inquisition and maybe to a degree in the franchise in general. The dwarf orgins (both commoner and noble) were my favorite in the first game, I liked Orzammar, I liked seeing their society, flawed as the caste system was the fact that they did have such a detailed culture made me really want to explore it more. I liked getting involved with the politics and putting a king on the throne and having that decision really MATTER to my character and his people. There’s so much shit going on with Dwarves you could make a game exclusively about them and never lack for content. I would really like to spend substantial time in Kal-Sharok, it’s supposed to be this drastically different kingdom from Orzammar with its own version of the caste system and paragons. So when inquisition came around the only really dwarf centric part of the story came as DLC, which I still haven’t had the chance to buy, I was really really disappointed. In Inquisition playing as a dwarf barely has any differences from playing as an elf or human. Dwarves can’t enter the fade, they don’t dream, yet at no point does a dwarven inquisitor ever get the opportunity to comment on their sudden connection to the fade or the fact that they dreamed about Haven with solas. The anchor had the potential to affect a dwarven character in uniquely interesting ways and it’s never really addressed. It seems like there were so many missed opportunities there. I’m also salty that we got Dalish and Qunari LIs before we got a dwarfy one. Heck, it feels like we only even got one token dwarfy buddy per game and Inquisition just recycled the same one from DA2. I will say I was happy I got to see what became of Dagna. But how awesome would it have been to actually have her be a companion instead of just a side character? Don’t get me wrong I love Varric as much as anyone does but I already got to be his best friend in DA2.”

Hope you don’t mind me adding some commentary to the submission? Just because I agree with you and wanted to add some things.

So yes, dwarves have been getting the short end for a while now and playing the descent  left me a bit miffed, because here’s a great set up and then when we get to the answers, we’re booted out! I don’t mind being left hanging IF we know for sure that they will follow through but for all we know we will never see Valta again.

DA4 looks to be focused on Tevinter but I have a little hope for da4 because it seems the ancient elves fought the titans, so if we get more info on the ancient world of Thedas maybe we’ll finally get some more Dwarf info? I doubt that the game will be dwarf-centric, just because of the set up to it, but I just hope they get a bigger part?

And yes, it is a shame they didn’t really do anything with the fact that a dwarven Inquisitor has to be freaking out to suddenly be in the Fade. But then there were a lot of things in DA:I when it came to race specific reactions that felt lacking.

Dagna as companion would have been great! I would also have preferred a new dwarven buddy for DA:I, I almost feel like Varric was a remnant they left in from when it was going to be Hawke in DA:I?

I don’t think that would cause problems for the CC though? In the Keep it might be difficult, but even then, only as complicated as they want to make it. After all not all choices will matter, so they don’t have to give options for all of them. And the CC, I don’t think they’ll really change much about how it works, hopefully nicer textures no oily skin better hair, eyebrows etc, but besides that I don’t think they’d need to change things from how they are now.

What would be interesting is if they do go for duel protagonist, to see whether you have to first create the new one and then later get the option to create a custom Inquisitor or go with the default (like they did with Hawke). For instance, they’d need to add new options for the new character if they’re from Tevinter, because Tevinter has a very distinctive look.

After months of trying to get my pc fix I ended up replacing it anyway... BUT that doe mean I can start posting again ;)

I’ve replied to all the private message already, there are some questions in my inbox that need a longer answer so I’ll try to get to them tomorrow after i get back from university!

There are already a few confessions in the queue so those should start showing up on your dashboard soon ;)

Well that’s an issue I have with the Solas romance in general; in the base game it has three scenes and only one of them is not just a one minute extra thing tuck on the end of a high approval scene :( Maybe that would have bothered me less if I hadn’t romanced Cullen first, and hadn’t known that other romances get more content.

But yeah they could’ve made up for the lack of content by adding some more stuff in Trespasser. What do we even get playing as romanced Lavellans? Two extra lines and a kiss?

Especially the revelation of Solas being Fen’harel wasn’t half as emotional as I would’ve expected. It doesn’t help that the game had already given away who Solas is with the after credit scene, rather than leave it a mystery for us to discover in Trespasser.

I don't think anyone is even saying Inq can't be special. But if they are you really have to be able to back that up. "you're a wizard harry" isn't going to be enough because the writing in this series is THAT DAMN GOOD. I do believe Solas would kill Inq for the greater good, no matter how much he loved them because he is the type of person who puts his mission before his own feelings. You have to change his mind about his mission, not woo him into submission with the magic of friendship.

Solas might listen to an Inq who makes a compelling argument and shows him the right kind of proof. That could be ANY Inq. Solas is racist, yeah but that doesn't mean he's going to be swayed by romance. Now that I've spent 3 asks on Solavellan on to my real reason for being here. I wish there had been more Orzammar in this game. Not just ruins but actual Orzammar with Bhelen or Harrowmont on the throne. After Origins I really wanted to see what became of it.             

I’m right there with you regarding Solas’ redemption; I’ve pretty much always had the view that the ability to redeem Solas should depend on 1) how much he respects the Inquisitor (because why would he listen to them if he doesn’t respect their intellect, their opinions, etc) and 2) the actions the Inquisitor takes, ideally in da3 AND da4. (And yes I realise that actions influence a companions approval, but you can get high approval even if you do thing that go against Solas’ advice or his beliefs of what is wrong or right.)

But Orzammar: yeah dwarves kinda get the shaft in this game. All we got was Varric’s personal quest and even that didn’t reveal anything really?  Oh and the Hissing Wastes, which actually is my favourite side quest to do, but again it isn’t that much. And of course the most important dwarf-centric part of the game is  dlc... which annoys me so much because it’s kinda shitty to put really important things - that will be important in future instalments - in a DLC. And this one is even more annoying because it just ends at the juicy part. But that could just be me, I suppose...

But yeah even that doesn’t show how things are going now...

Me too, definitely! tbh I’ve seen more confessions/ people shitting on Solas than on the romance? But yeah most of the people who discuss the romance are the shippers themselves, because we’re too emotionally invested in it to let go, lol

Well I think a lot of people feel like you’d be shitting on Solavellan by pretending that Lavellan is an Exceptional person, the best person in the world? I think a lot of people feel characters like that are boring. And that has nothing to do with Solavellan specifically.

Even Weekes himself said Solas only has this romance with an elf Inquisitor because he’s pretty racists (towards the other races in Thedas) and she’s the only one that can get under his skin. Not because she is Special™but because he is extremely flawed.

(Again this does not diminish how he feels about her or their love. But you can’t just pretend that isn’t the truth.)

No one is saying Lavellan isn’t special to Solas, or that he doesn’t truly love her. Just that as a character so devoted to his cause, it would be an unbelievable cop out to say that twu love’s kiss made him change his mind.

And again, like I’ve said before, Solas’ mistake also cost Lavellan her immortality, so you can see how his love for her could equally make him more determined to go through with his plan.

I’d like to remind you even the game doesn’t make her out to be uniquely special in that regard, any high approval Inquisitor can earn his respect and any Inquisitor can choose to try to redeem him.

Lavellan might still be what convinces him to change his mind, maybe even to give up his plans entirely, but again, that story line would need to be earned. That doesn’t diminish their love story. Or Lavellan’s bravery/ heroism/ other qualities. But having Solas go ‘oh well never mind that plan to fix the world (in his view)’ would diminish him as a character.

Furthermore, criticising something - which I don’t feel I’ve even done regarding Solavellan, at the most I’ve criticised one interpretation a few anons felt was the majority in fandom - is not the same thing as shitting on something.

- but that impact has to be because their relationship (romantic or not) has led him to (a) fundamentally revise his assessment of post-Veil mortals and (b) value the Inquisitor's opinion in particular, i.e. not because the relationship itself is just So Important that he'd abandon his goals for it. There's a big difference between a char changing their goals due to a shift in beliefs catalysed by someone else, and a char changing their goals because that other person is just Too Special. [2/3]            

It might work for some characters, but it'd really ring hollow with Solas. He mightn't be able to live with himself after the devastating consequences of his plans (once he's realised post-Veil mortals are fully people, in positive-approval worldstates), but I find it incredibly hard to believe he'd ever forgive himself if he abandoned what he believed was Right (though imperfect) for the sake of his own personal Tru Luv/Ultimate Friendship. [3/3]   

Oh I definitely agree with you with their being a difference between a character doing a 180 because of a Special™ relationship/ person and them being led to a challenge their believes because of a challenging person.

And I agree that his relationship with the Inquisitor should influence the ability to redeem him. Though I would also make it possible for a low approval Inquisitor, it’ll just take a lot more effort. Not because he suddenly sees modern Thedosians as disposable, but because he doesn’t respect the Inquisitor enough to have them influence his plans.

I say this because even though Solas doesn’t tell a low approval Inquisitor that they made him see modern Thedosians as real people, and even suggests he does not, it is clear his time in the Inquisition has changed his views of modern Thedas. (I think it’s been mentioned before, but just look at how he interacts with the other members of the Inquisition, and the fact that he approves of helping people.) I feel like being friends/ close to the Inquisitor doesn’t just make him see modern Thedosians as people, it forced him to recognise that he did.

I think there are few characters I would find it convincing for. But with Solas, yeah I really don’t see it, I agree. The thing is, his plans might be devastating, but his mistake has already been so devastating I don’t think someone who seems so loyal to his people could just live his life knowing he could fix it. (Whether he can or if his attempt to fix it will just make it worse is debatable.)

Actually, in Solas’ case, I can’t see him giving up on his plan? Too much depends on it.  He doesn’t just want to save the ancient elves, and restore them, but their world as well. A low approval Solas will reveal that his plan is to tear down the Veil and ‘reshape reality’ - which makes sense because otherwise he wouldn’t have had a stake in stopping Corypheus; clearly there are different ways the Fade can be reunited with this world.

Even if he sees post-veil mortals as ‘real people’, this modern world is still a blighted mess and he has to feel responsible for a lot of it. (Think about it, the main horrors of modern Thedas are consequences of him putting the Veil up: the fear of magic leading to imprisonment of all mages/ abominations/ fear of spirits, the position of the elves in modern Thedas (slaughtered/ enslaved/ marginalised, not to mention Orlais trying to have them classified as actual animals), and he seems to know something about the Blights that I have theories on, but we’ve not seen enough yet to be sure he has something to do with it?) So even if Solas views them as real people, I think he’d still make the calculation that the ones who will die in the chaos, in the aftermath of his plans, don’t outweigh all those who’d find a better life in a better world.