Club Passim

Club Passim: Talk a little bit about your experiences as a female in a male-dominated profession/field.

Abby Altman: When I first started working here and learning sound, I didn’t realize the gender imbalance. I had no idea. I didn’t go to school for sound and notice all my classmates were guys, I didn’t go to other venues much and see “oh it’s always a sound GUY”. I didn’t have any background, and so Passim was my bubble. Whatever was normal for Passim was normal for me, and at Passim we have at least an equal number of men and women working sound and throughout the organization. It wasn't until I started working shows and talking with artists that came through that I realized, “Oh, I’m weird.” No one told me I couldn’t do it, so I didn’t even think about it. Once I started working downstairs regularly is when I noticed folks commenting, and not always negative things. I’ve gotten the whole range of comments from artists, from walking through the door and them saying to me, “Where’s the sound guy?” to after a show having artists come up to me and say, “this is fantastic; you’re my first sound woman”.

There will be nights where almost our entire staff are women, from the servers to the box office to me, it’s such a cool thing when it happens. Right now we have 4 women and 3 men on staff who run sound, but now when I do go out to other venues, I make a point to look at who’s working. Usually, I’m disappointed to see barely any women on staff. The same thing goes for festivals. We just had a couple of festivals in the area held with big stages and lots of crew, and it's always men. Every year. All men.

I’ve heard some hypotheses why more women don’t get hired for sound positions, and some of it is that not as many women go to school for sound engineering to begin with, and the workforce reflects that. But then you ask, ‘well why aren’t more women going into that’? And that’s a question I still don’t have an answer to.

CP: Do you notice a difference in how you’re treated by other artists, venues, audiences, and industry professionals before vs. after you stage manage?

AA: Sometimes. There are some people that definitely just walk in and judge you, but once I show them I know what I’m doing, they relax. Artists are so focused on making sure that they’re going to give the best show they possibly can, and understandably so. If for some reason they perceive the sound person isn’t going to be the best thing for their show, they’re going to be nervous and will want to run the whole thing. Artists will come back to the soundboard and change things for me, and that’s one of those things where sometimes that’s okay, and sometimes it is not. It can be with an air of ego where they think they can do my job better than me, or it can be actually helpful, especially if I’ve never heard the artists before or they’ve never played on our stage. It can really save time in the soundcheck and ensure the artist gives their best show.

CP: What do you do in a situation when you feel disrespected by the artists/co-workers you’re surrounded by?

AA: Every situation is different. Usually, I’d step aside and let them do what they need to do, because at the end of the day, it is the artist's show. If I’m fighting with them during soundcheck they’re not going to be in a good headspace for the show, which will make them give a worse performance. I have no problem taking a backseat when I need to.

Sometimes all it takes though is a little indication to show them that I do know what I’m doing. It’s silly that I feel like I have to prove it though, you know? I have this job. Passim has trusted me to run this show, so I shouldn’t have to prove to you that I’m qualified. But sometimes, if an artist asks you to do something and you reply in a way so they know you understand, it will put them at ease because to them it shows that you know what you’re talking about.

That’s something I’m not always sure if it’s a gender thing or an age thing, you know. I’m 28, and I look younger than I am, so I don’t always know if people’s reservations come from a woman being at the soundboard, because of my age, or because they just don’t know me. 

CP: In your opinion, how can men be more aware or informed about their women co-workers and peers in the music industry?

AA: Hire women. Whatever role you happen to be in, hire women to do things. If you’re an artist and you’re hiring a band, consider women for your band. If you’re looking for a studio engineer to record with, or a graphic designer for your new ep, look for women; tour managing, videography, producing, everything counts.

I get very, very tired of seeing bands of 6, 7, 8 people made up entirely of men.  It feels like something is wrong when you can’t find a single woman you want in your group.

Some of the arguments come back to ‘there aren’t as many women to hire’. And I’m not saying if 2% of studio engineers are women that you should hire a woman just to tick that box, but you should at least consider it.

CP: What message do you want to display as a woman “behind the scenes”?

AA: It is normal. Don’t try to make a big deal about it, being a woman in sound shouldn’t be a phenomenon, so don’t treat it like one. Just being there and making sure that I’m capable and do my job well is important. 

Actually, for the first time earlier this year I had a job offer to stage manage outside of Passim for a weekend festival. It was in a giant auditorium and I’ve never worked with anything that scale, but the artist who reached out to me was a musician who had worked with me before at Passim, and so when he was producing a show of his own he thought of me. That was really mind-blowing. It means that people do pay attention. 

It’s always such a balance. You want to be supportive and say, “I’m a woman and I’m awesome and look at all these other awesome women”, and you want to ensure people really see how badass it is when women run things. On the other hand, you feel like you shouldn’t have to do that, that it shouldn’t be something that gets pointed out.  Where’s the balance between shouting from the rooftops about amazing women artists but also trying to normalize their presence as simply artists?  That’s something I struggle with for sure.

CP: What words of wisdom/encouragement do you have for aspiring women in this field?

AA: Ask women for help. If you’re a woman and want to start doing something you wish you knew more about, it’s good to approach other women and ask them “How did you do this? How did you get here?” If I were in the sound booth and a woman came up to me after a show and asked me how a PA works, I would be extremely happy to talk about it. Lean on women, but remember that there are good men out there too. 

                                                             ~

Thank you, Abby, for such a unique perspective on this subject! Your love for your workplace and what you do is apparent to all who cross paths with you. It doesn’t matter where you come from or how much experience you have, all it takes is hard work, determination, and a passion for what you do. The rest will fall in place.

Thank you all for reading, and stay tuned for one last post from me in the ‘Women in Folk’ blog.

Katie

Club Passim: Talk a little about your experiences as a female artist/all-female group in a heavily male-dominated music genre.

Isa Burke: It’s such a double-edged sword. That’s something I always come back to. Being a member of an all-female band vs. just being a female musician are totally different experiences too. I think often times women will start bands with other women because they know they won’t be belittled or talked down to, they know that their bandmates will assume that they generally know what they’re talking about, or they’ll feel comfortable enough to voice something if they don’t know it. This happened all the time at Berklee when I was the only girl in my classes. If I didn’t know something I would be too afraid to ask because I didn’t want all the guys in the room to think, ‘Well of course she doesn’t know this because she’s a woman,’ when in fact a lot of them probably didn’t know what that thing was either.

Being in an all-women band is so amazing. That’s a huge reason why I started playing lead guitar. When Ellie and I played duo, we were playing all of these country songs and I just said, “Wouldn’t it be funny if I took a guitar solo? I don’t really know how to do that’. But then I started doing it, and then I started getting pretty good at it. I think if I had been in a band with men, I wouldn’t have been comfortable trying to do this thing I’m not very good at yet but will get better at. We’re all very supportive of each other in the band.

Biases can come in many different forms. For example, when I was just starting to play electric guitar, my friend asked me to play a gig with them. We were rehearsing and I borrowed my friend’s pedal because I was still new to the electric and didn’t have my own set-up figured out yet. One of the other band members asked me, “Oh, is that your pedalboard?” And I just thought to myself, ‘Motherf*cker, you would never have asked ANOTHER GUY if that was their pedal board, you’re asking me because I’m a girl.’ But it wasn’t my pedal board. I didn’t want him to think that women can’t own sick pedal boards and by the way, I have a sick pedal board now, so I think I just ended up lying and saying that it was mine.

I’ve also noticed real differences in how people talk to me about my fiddle playing vs. my guitar playing. People expect women to take fiddle solos more than guitar solos. Often there’s a tone of surprise when they compliment me on my guitar playing because they’re not expecting it, you know? All of these things are very subtle and most of the time people probably don’t even realize or notice the little biases that they have. I take very seriously the role that I have to be visible to other women and men. I get really psyched when I see a young boy in the audience at a gig and I take a guitar solo because then he’s not going to grow up thinking only men can play the guitar, and maybe if he starts a band he’ll hire a woman guitarist. But of course, inspiring the young gals is my literal favorite thing in life. I feel really lucky that I have a platform to move the needle a little bit and help break down these biases.

CP: Do you notice a difference in how you’re treated by other artists, venues, audiences, and industry professionals before vs. after you play?

IB: Yes, I’ve definitely noticed it more when Lula Wiles was younger. We’d walk in to play a gig and here were three girls in floral-print dresses with our “little band”, but then we get on stage and you see three multi-instrumentalist women doing their thing and playing pretty powerfully. That’s when people usually figure out we know what we’re doing.

I have heard some crazy stories from other people though. For example, a friend of mine was an instructor at a music camp and after she played in the faculty concert one time, one of the other faculty members who was a guy came up to her and her bandmate and said, “At first I thought of you two as sexual objects but now I know you’re also great musicians.” I think he thought he was joking but like, come. On. My blood still boils every time I think about it.

CP: Incredible classical artists such as classical pianist Yuja Wang use their performance attire as a way to express themselves. This provocative style of dress has been viewed as “distracting” from the music. What are your personal thoughts on women using fashion and sex-appeal as a means of bringing in more audience members and assisting in selling their music?

IB: Another one I could talk about all day. It’s so complicated, right? You want to look good and feel good on stage. That is usually my primary goal when I am getting dressed for a show: ‘what will make me feel good and enable me to give the best possible show?’ A lot of times it feels like putting on armor.

As women, it is drilled into our heads that we have to look attractive, that we have to look sexy. It’s really hard to escape that. I never want to fault women for using that phenomenon to their advantage, but I also want the music world to be a hospitable place for women who don’t want to do that, who want to just wear a t-shirt and sneakers on stage and not wear make-up and sound incredible. 

I still don’t really know where I come down on that one, to be honest, but I had a really great conversation with my bandmates in the van last week. We were talking about the “whatever choice you choose to make is a feminist choice”  brand of feminism, but we had a problem with that. The thing is, all choices can’t be equal choices if some are rewarded by society and certain others are punished.

It’s really important to interrogate your own desires. Ask yourself, ‘am I doing this because it makes me feel more like myself? Or am I doing this because it makes me feel more acceptable to the world?’ Until all traces of patriarchy are gone from the world, which will probably never happen, we won’t ever really know what our true deepest desires are because they are so shaped by the world around us. At the end of the day, it’s important to constantly ask yourself questions, interrogate, and critique.

CP: What do you do in a situation when you feel disrespected by the artists/co-workers you’re surrounded by?

IB: It depends on the situation. If someone is blatantly rude to me I would probably just call them out on it and walk away. But if someone does something a little more subtle or if they show a bias they have, I will try to find a way to poke at that in a friendly way. For example the pedal board guy. I probably would have said something like, “Well, what makes you think this isn’t my pedal board? Why wouldn’t it be?” It’s a hard balance because you do want to stand up for yourself, but you also want to reach them, right? You hopefully want to change someone’s mind a little bit.

Sometimes people will give my bandmate Mali a condescending or patronizing compliment such as, “Oh you sweet girl, you play such nice music! You must have been gifted this talent”, and what I love that she does is she’ll say something like, “Oh well, thank you, but I actually just practiced a ton and worked hard to get good at my instrument.” I think letting people in on the hard work musicians have to put in can shift their perceptions in a subtle way.

CP: In your opinion, how can men be more aware or informed about their women peers and co-workers in the music industry?

IB: First off, I think that it’s really important to examine your own perceptions and try to figure out where you might have a bias, which is not your fault and is the fault of society. Take a mental inventory of the way you regard your male musician friends, versus the way you regard your female musician friends and see if there are any significant differences. Really try to dig into why you think that may be.

The second thing I would say is to make a conscious effort to hire women. Try to stay away from all-dude bands. I think that men instinctively go to other men when starting a band because they’re more visible in this male-dominated industry, but I think with a slight mental adjustment you can find equally qualified women who maybe haven’t been given as many opportunities, even though they deserve the opportunities just as much. That also has the pleasant side effect of increasing visibility for women, and I cannot say enough how important it is for people to see themselves represented. It’s something I focus on a lot.

There’s also a real premium and value placed on being able to “shred” on your instrument and being technically proficient; I saw this at Berklee a lot. I know a lot of women who can seriously shred on their instrument, but this value placed on shredding is so prominent amongst men, and I just don’t think that’s the most important thing about music. A lot of my favorite musicians aren’t that technically proficient but play with such emotion and musicality. I love getting to hear musicians play on their second or third instruments because they can’t fall back on their muscle memory and so they have no choice but to express themselves. Remember what music is all about.

CP: What message do you want to display as a woman in folk music?

IB: Overall, what I want to project into the world is that there is nothing weird about a band of women in floral dresses who have hairy legs and play the shit out of their instruments. Those things can all co-exist very peacefully. I think it is equally important to increase visibility to women and trans/non-binary people in the music industry so that we can eliminate the expectation that only certain genders can do certain things; who can be a producer, who can be a band leader, who can play drums, who can play guitar. I think that it didn’t even occur to me that I could be a producer until I heard about women producers. It didn’t occur to me that I could be a drummer (one of my secret but not-so-secret dreams) until I heard about women drummers.

I want to make people aware we all have certain biases that aren’t our fault. We’re all born into a world that creates those biases in us, but it is our responsibility to dismantle them and un-learn them.

I also want to pass on all the help and opportunities that were given to me when I was first starting out. There were a lot of incredible women that gave us the chance to open for them, as well as some great men like Matt Smith and Matt Glaser who helped us out and guided us, and now that I’m in a position where I can help others out I want to do that because so many people did it for me.

CP: What words of wisdom/encouragement do you have for aspiring women in folk?

IB: Keep an eye out for the sexist bullsh*t, but also give men a chance to surprise you. A lot of them can learn. Plan for the worst, hope for the best. That’s what I try to approach every new situation with. I also think that collaborating with other women will pretty much always give you a huge confidence boost. I think that playing with women will give you a chance to explore parts of your musical identity you haven’t before, which will give you more confidence the next time you’re in a rehearsal and some guy makes a comment assuming you don’t know how to play your instrument.

Our society tries to put women in a box, and I think really trying to see the box as clearly as you can so you know how to break out of it is important. Recognize that women are often working with a confidence deficit, and ‘fake it till you make it’ is honestly one of the best pieces of advice I can give to anyone. Obviously, know your weaknesses, know what you need to work on and work hard at it. Hit the shed and work hard but don’t feel like you have to be totally perfect at everything. There’s a common feeling among women that you have to be twice as good to get half the recognition. But try to say f*ck that. Whenever you can.

                                                           ~

Thank you, Isa, for such a thoughtful and eye-opening interview! You have such wonderful and informed opinions. I think we can all learn from this and try to examine our own biases a little more. 

When’s the last time you’ve given your judgments a second thought?

Thanks again to Isa, and thank you for reading! Stay tuned for the next installment of the ‘Women in Folk’ blog!

Katie

Club Passim: Talk a little bit about your experiences as a female in a male-dominated profession/field.

Cindy Howes: I feel very lucky. When I was working at WYEP I had some really great co-workers, specifically Rosemary Welsch who has worked there for 38 years. Just having her presence on the programming staff and having her general influences was very inspiring to me and helpful in an immeasurable way. There are some really wonderful women in the industry, but...it is a lot of men, you know?

Most of the men I come across are professional, but occasionally you do cross paths with people who aren’t. Having to navigate those situations isn’t always the simplest. You have to ask yourself, ‘What is safe for me in those situations? What is appropriate to do, yet still makes me feel safe and comfortable?’ That’s the conversation we’re starting to have now.

I’m an older millennial, but still, in my generation, things were different from how they are today. Younger generations just won't tolerate unequal treatment and disrespect, and that’s awesome! It’s really exciting to see this cultural shift.

CP: Do you notice a difference in how you’re treated by artists, venues, audiences, and industry professionals before vs. after you interview them/they hear an interview you do?

CH: Yes, though I’m not so sure if it has to do with gender. I think it more so has to do with ego.

In public radio, you have to fight for recognition. Every little bit counts, and when someone misses something or gets your name wrong, that can be really upsetting. Musicians will sometimes underestimate the quality of the interview they’re going to get from me. They’re used to other radio stations asking them the same 10 questions, so when they do an interview with me, they’re usually pleasantly surprised by the substance and depth of the questions.

I will say though, I am frequently told when meeting someone in person that I don’t look the way I sound on the radio. I look different than what they expected I would sound like. I’m not sure if that’s a good or a bad thing! Usually, they assume me to be older than I really am.

CP: What do you do in a situation when you feel disrespected by the artists/co-workers you’re surrounded by?

CH: I have to weigh the situation. If it’s something where I don’t want to rock the boat, I’ll work through it and try not to take it personally. I’ve found that when that stuff happens, it’s usually more about the other person than it is about me. Also working in radio and the media industry, you have to learn to let a lot of stuff go, so it’s just a matter of figuring out what battles you want to fight.

I’m normally pretty calm; I usually won’t explode at someone. Although there have been times where something disrespectful or hurtful is said to me and I’m so affected by their comment that I’ve had to give up an interview I was about to do. If a situation like that arises, the first thing I do is remove myself from having to be in public so I’m not distracted and don’t misspeak. 

CP: In your opinion, how can men be more aware or informed about their women peers and co-workers?

CH: By intently listening more. Try to put yourself in marginalized people's shoes to see what it’s like to give up your privilege. I definitely have privilege myself, and so I try to do it too. I imagine what it would be like if my appearance was different, my skin color was different, my country of origin was different. Everyone should try to think outside of themselves more.

CP: Do you find that your co-workers do a good job with this?

CH: I’ve seen progress for sure. All my co-workers are wonderful now. In the past, some have been better than others. Women radio hosts were usually on in the mid-day and evening, but never hosted the morning show or afternoon drive; the most popular show times. However, when I arrived in Pittsburgh in 2007 things were already better. In Pittsburgh, they now have 1-2 stations that have women on in the morning. While it’s still not ideal, it has gotten a lot better for women. I don’t know if I can say the same for people of color, though.

CP: What message do you want to display as a woman in the radio business?

CH: Treat women like people.

CP: What words of wisdom/encouragement do you have for aspiring women in this field?

CH: It is not your fault. Things will happen to you and you will feel like you’re being treated differently, treated lesser-than because of your gender. But know that it isn’t your fault and that things have been changing for the better.

CP: Any final remarks?

CH: I have a feeling that women who are in their late teens/early twenties right now are much smarter and more confident than before. There’s a lot more body-positivity these days which is beautiful to watch. They walk with confidence through this world. In my generation, we were very insecure, and it showed.  

The more that young women realize their worth, the better off we all are going to be.

                                                          ~

Powerful words, spoken by a powerful lady! Thank you, Cindy. What an inspiring and uplifting interview this was. While it is crucial to talk about our negative experiences, it is just as crucial to recognize how far we’ve come and the ground we’ve covered together. Conditions for women have definitely improved in the passing years, but there is still much to equalize across genders, color, and borders. 

So remember to check your privilege; there are always folks who have it worse than you do. 

Thanks again to Cindy, and thank you for reading! Stay tuned for the next installment of the ‘Women in Folk’ blog!

Katie

Club Passim: Talk a little about your experiences as a female artist in the Folk/Americana genre.

McKain Lakey: I’ve worked for many years as an audio engineer so most of my more pointed experiences with gender in music have been on that side of things. That is a big reason I became a performer actually. I did want to pursue my own music but it became pretty clear to me that that was my career path after delving into the world of live sound and getting burnt out from dealing with misogyny all the time.

Even though there are still a lot of stigmas and challenges to being a woman performer, I find it is a lot easier to be a woman performer than be a woman audio engineer. We are definitely underrepresented in both areas but I definitely experienced a lot more blatant sexism as an audio engineer than as a performer. But I really wouldn’t have it any other way. I feel like the experience of being a woman really informs the music I make and informs my perspective in a different way. I feel like we’re coming to a time where that perspective is becoming more valued, and it feels like a really ripe moment to make an impact as an artist by being true to those experiences as a woman in the world. It’s a cool time to be a woman artist.

Being a part of this community of women folk musicians reminds me of when I wrestled in high school. I was on a women’s wrestling team which was still a pretty new concept, so most schools didn’t have a team with girls that filled every weight class. This meant we wound up wrestling for each other’s teams a lot because if your team had two people in one weight class you would loan a wrestler to a team that didn’t have someone in that weight class. It really felt like a ‘wild west’ of women’s wrestling. But what was cool was that whenever I went to a tournament, there was always this huge sense of camaraderie. Even though we were technically in competition with each other, we were also rooting for each other because we played for each other’s teams all the time. You’re all in it together as women wrestlers, and I feel that same sense of camaraderie within women in folk music. There’s always this sigh of relief when you see other women, like “oh, my people”. The bond is very strong for ladies in folk music and that feels very cool.

CP: Do you notice a difference in how you’re treated by other artists, venues, audiences, and industry professionals before vs. after you play?

ML: Yes. Most of the time before I play people don’t take me seriously, but after my set they’ll understand I know what I’m doing. I’ve had a lot of luck with different venues that are very supportive, but every once in a while you have to play that sh*tty gig where no one really cares until you play your set and have a chance to make an impact.

CP: Often, all-male bands have a heavy female fanbase that buys merch, go to shows, support, etc. Do you feel your music is supported by men in this same way? Why or why not do you think that is?

ML: I would say so. If I look at the statistics online of the people who are streaming my music (though I don’t think it is a very good indicator), it’s more women than men, but it’s actually pretty evenly split. At shows, I hear positive responses from both men and women. Actually, for the song I wrote about Little Sadie, I get more comments from men telling me, “Hey that was a really interesting perspective. I’m going to think about that more, let’s have a conversation”.

CP: Incredible classical artists such as classical pianist Yuja Wang use their performance attire as a way to express themselves. This provocative style of dress has been viewed as “distracting” from the music by some. What are your personal thoughts on women using fashion and sex-appeal as a means of bringing in more audience members and assisting in selling their music?

ML: I don’t think it’s my place to judge what any woman wears on stage, period. Whatever your personal style is, whatever is authentic to you is what you should be doing. Women claiming their sexuality is a very powerful thing, so if that’s a big part of your art, then f*****g go for it, that’s rad. I don’t see any problem with that.

There’s a big focus on what women wear, but that conversation distracts from what they’re actually saying with their music. Maybe they’re trying to make a statement with what they’re wearing and we’re completely missing the statement because we’re focusing on the fact that it was “provocative”.

That is definitely something I struggle with as a woman artist. ‘What is the appropriate stage attire that is going to be reflective of who I am as an artist but still comes across as professional’? It’s something I think about a lot, and it frustrates me that men don’t have to think about that. They can show up in jeans and a t-shirt and no one’s going to really think less of them. I also struggle with what feels authentic to me vs. what comes across as authentic.  That’s something I encountered a lot in my duo Woolly Breeches- we often experimented with gender-bending, wearing a lot of men’s clothing. If I were a man I would wear pearl snap shirts every day, but wearing pearl snap shirts every gig as a woman was often seen as a gimmick. That’s the line that I struggle with and feel a lot of frustration towards. It’s completely uneven between the genders with stuff like that.

CP: In your opinion, how can men be more aware or informed about their women co-workers and collaborators in the music industry?

ML: Listening is a big part of it. On the personal accountability side, I’ve been trying to be okay with having any conversation that I would have with a female artist with a male artist. I think sometimes there’s this weird secret club of ladies where we’ll talk about our experiences of being woman musicians together, but we’re not super visible to our male peers. I’ve been trying to focus on being very transparent with where I’m at and not catering the things I talk about based on the gender of who I’m talking to. That has done a lot to spur conversations with male peers who have the potential of being strong allies but don’t necessarily know how to do that.

It’s definitely a two-way street, though. Males need to be actively listening to women. That goes in any setting. From listening when women are advocating for themselves and paying them what they’re actually worth, to listening to us in musical settings. Dudes - don’t just play over women musicians, make sure you’re listening to woman bandleaders just as well as you’d listen to a male bandleader. There are a lot of really subtle ways that men are socialized to ignore women or downplay their contributions. The simple act of listening and being present for women musicians is the foundation of implementing change.

CP: What do you do in a situation when you feel disrespected by the artists/co-workers you’re surrounded by?

ML: It’s very circumstantial. I am really picky with who I spend time with. Going to Berklee, I learned really quickly that I just don’t believe in forgiving a**holes based on their musical merit. I can always find another good musician to play with or hang out with who is a good person too. There are so many amazing musicians who are working hard to make this world a more equitable place, so when I see people being disrespectful, I just leave it. I don’t need to be in this situation, there are so many other places I can go where I WILL be respected.

However, there are those moments where you do need to confront the situation right away. The introduction to a person has been the biggest point of asserting myself actually. I learned this as an audio engineer. If I didn’t assert myself as having power and knowledge within the handshake of meeting an artist, then they would walk all over me for the rest of the night. I’ve definitely carried that with me in my interactions with other people. You have to introduce yourself as someone who is friendly, but also won’t take anyone else’s s**t. It immediately puts a damper on any further disrespect that might occur. That’s usually how I confront the issue before it even happens, though it sucks that that has to happen in the first place.

CP: What message do you want to display as a performer in folk music?

ML: To have respect and compassion for people’s stories. A big part of my work has been exploring perspectives of marginalized people throughout history. I focus mostly on women and queer folks because those are identities I carry. But at the heart of it, it’s about going into your interactions with people with kindness and compassion and to be present for the people you’re around. In the end, it’s all about respect.

CP: What words of wisdom/encouragement do you have for aspiring women in folk?

ML: The women in the folk industry, both musicians and tech, are a really good group of people. Having so many amazing women mentors, colleagues and friends that I’ve gotten to know through this scene is what I cherish most. Collaborating with these women is one of the best parts about doing what I do.

My biggest words of encouragement would be ‘Welcome!’ There are people here that really love you and want to support you. Your best resources are the women around you. We have to keep working on building this community together because it’s a really important one to have. There is a lot of potential for us to express ourselves through this genre, we just have to dive in.

                                                           ~

Perhaps my favorite thing McKain said in the interview was that she doesn’t believe in forgiving people for their attitude or behavior based on their musical merit. While attending Eastman I have most definitely run across this issue a number of times. Being an incredible musician does not excuse nor warrant the poor treatment of friends, peers, and mentors. Unfortunately, this still seems to be lost on many musicians today, men and women alike, though in my experience this attitude tends to appear more frequently in men.

Thanks, McKain for bringing this up and sharing your thoughts and experiences! We can’t wait to see your projects come into fruition.

Thank you for reading, and stay tuned for the next installment of the ‘Women in Folk’ blog!

Katie

Club Passim: Talk a little about your experiences as a female artist/all-female group in a heavily male-dominated music genre.

The Ladles: Well, to begin with, we felt it right away when we all arrived at New England Conservatory and realized how few women were in our program. It can definitely create a divide, and it's easy to feel judged for how you play and what you play. There's a sense of needing to prove yourself. Styles of music that include more improvisation tend to be more male-dominated. This is because we believe men are allowed to make more 'mistakes' than women in our society. We don't have to look very far to see examples of this. Improvisation is all about making mistakes and being vulnerable; you figure things out as you go and you will make a fool of yourself. But because women don't have that same sort of leeway, they often shy away from that level of exposure.

We're sure many women can relate to the experience of feeling pressure to present as "perfect." As we have continued to grow as musicians and The Ladles has grown as a band, it's been easier to let go of perfection in favor of taking risks and learning new things. In those moments, we certainly make "mistakes" but also feel more creative, authentic and fulfilled.

CP: Do you notice a difference in how you’re treated by other artists, venues, audiences, and industry professionals before vs. after you play?

TL: We definitely have. Condescending comments like, "Wow I'm surprised at how good you are!" We literally have had people say that. But the vast majority of audiences and venues are very supportive and treat us with respect.

CP: Do you feel you are viewed differently on stage by men v. women?

TL: I think this varies more person-to-person, rather than men vs. women. Of course, there is a measure of objectification that is inherent with performance, whether you are female or male. That being said, the presence of the "male gaze" is undeniable (obviously among straight males) when you are a woman being viewed on stage by a man.

CP: Often, all-male bands have a heavy female fanbase that buy merch, go to many shows, support, etc. Do you feel you have the male gender's support of your music in this same way? Why or why not do you think that is?

TL: Our fanbase is pretty equally male and female. The men who enjoy our music respect us as musicians and genuinely enjoy what we have to offer. In our generation, there is generally more awareness among men of respecting women (at least in the lovely bubble that we live in, in the northeast). But honestly we see it throughout the country - even in the deep south where Lucia is living these days - things have changed a lot between our generation and our parents’.

At the same time, one cannot ignore the violence and oppression that women face en masse. The abortion laws being passed in various state legislature around the country are a good indicator of the ways in which women continue to be policed. Women in every profession have to deal with these questions of respect, creative/intellectual worth, body image, and entitlement. Femme musicians just have the added experience of navigating that in public, on stage.

CP: Incredible classical artists such as classical pianist Yuja Wang use their performance attire as a way to express themselves. This provocative style of dress has been viewed as “distracting” from the music. What are your personal thoughts on women using fashion and sex-appeal as a means of bringing in more audience members and assisting in selling their music?

TL: Performers should be able to dress and act however they want! They are creating a performance, and that includes a visual aspect. If a woman is using her sex appeal, go right ahead girl! The bigger issue here is that sex appeal and skill are not mutually exclusive. A woman can be an incredible musician and not fit society's typical (and ridiculous) standards of beauty and be overlooked and ignored. On the other hand, a woman can be an incredible musician, fit some of those ridiculous standards of beauty, and therefore not be taken seriously. There's no "right" way to do this, so just be yourself and wait for everyone else to catch up.

CP: In your opinion, how can men be more aware or informed about women in the music industry?

TL: Men can include women in their projects, they can support their femme friends' shows and projects, and they can examine their own experiences! Really just talk to your female friends and listen to what they say about their experiences.

CP: What do you do in a situation when you feel disrespected by the artists/co-workers you’re surrounded by?

TL: Try to address it, as quickly as possible. It can be super hard, but it's important for both parties. Sometimes people aren't even aware that they're acting in a way that feels disrespectful to you. Learning to trust your gut and to vocalize those feelings is hard work, but really the only way to bring about change in a work environment and step into your power.

CP: What message do you want to display as a woman in folk music?

TL: We think it's important to stop making subsections of musicians - "Women in music" "All female band"  etc. We don't want to be defined as "female musicians", we just want to be musicians! We should be able to transcend that label. It can be creatively limiting to put yourself into a box that labels you a certain way. We are happy to talk about our experiences as women living in a society that still takes issue with women living public lives, in fact, it's absolutely essential dialogue that can be informative for women and men. But why not ask men to examine their experiences as well? How have they benefited from sexism? What has been easier for them because of their gender? What do they not understand about life as a femme creator? What is their experience of working with women? Establishing that expectation, that men should be examining their experience and including women in their work, is necessary for us all to move forward.

CP: What words of wisdom/encouragement do you have for aspiring women in folk?

TL: Build community and be true to yourself and your music! If there's emotion and intention behind music, it's always good music. Who cares if anyone likes it or not? If it feels like a true expression to you, then it has merit. There's a wonderful letter from Martha Graham to Agnes de Mille that captures this idea beautifully:

“There is a vitality, a life force, a quickening that is translated through you into action,
 and because there is only one of you in all time, this expression is unique. 
And if you block it, it will never exist through any other medium and be lost. 
The world will not have it. 
It is not your business to determine how good it is, nor how valuable it is, nor how it compares with other expressions. 
It is your business to keep it yours clearly and directly, to keep the channel open. 
You do not even have to believe in yourself or your work. 
You have to keep open and aware directly to the urges that motivate YOU. 
Keep the channel open.”

Thank You, Katie, Caroline, and Lucia for your thought-provoking answers. My favorite points you made were how improvisation-based genres are usually male-dominated and the reasoning behind it, and that it is everyone’s job to help establish the expectation that both men and women should reflect on their differentiating experiences with sexism in the workplace, and then talk about it more.

Thank you for reading, and stay tuned for the next installment of the ‘Women in Folk’ blog!

- Katie

Want to hear more from The Ladles? They will be performing at Club Passim on Friday, July 19th, 2019 at 8 pm. You can buy tickets online here. 

Club Passim: Talk a little bit about your experiences as a female in a male-dominated profession/field.

Kristina Latino: My experience has primarily been one filled with support from other women managers. That has been the predominant experience that I’ve had so far. I am continually amazed by the openness and the support that I get when I meet other women managers, many of whom have been doing it much longer than me, and that so many of them will give me their cell number and say, ‘If you need to talk through some strategy or if you have questions you can call me, you can email me’. It makes me feel like I have a community to turn to as I grow, and that has been really invaluable.

On the flip side, there are definitely experiences I’ve had that have been frustrating. It’s frustrating when some people, often men, just don’t take you seriously. With those people, I sometimes have to be a lot more forceful with my personality, or persistent in proving to them that I am worth their mental space and their time. Where gender comes into play, I have been inspired by the incredible women managers that I get to see and work with, and I hope I get to work with more and more of them as time goes on.

CP: Do you notice a difference in how you’re treated by artists, venues, audiences, and industry professionals before you’ve set expectations about the quality of your work?

KL: Sure. I try to be kind and respectful to everyone, and I think, you know, maybe because I’m a woman, that often that can be mistaken as being a pushover, or not firm enough. I think sometimes people think that because I try to be very nice that I am not able to be as much of a champion for my artists as they expect, but that’s fine. I know I can go after things that my artists need really well. I think people sometimes expect me to be more soft-spoken or less opinionated or think that because I’m nice that I’ll be a pushover and that’s not the case. I can stand up for myself just fine, especially with the motivation of wanting to do right by my artists. It’s easy for me to stand up for those artists and for the people I care about.

CP: What do you do in a situation when you feel disrespected by the artists/co-workers you’re surrounded by?

KL: The way that I react to disrespect has really evolved over time. When people treated me with real disrespect when I was younger, I was much more likely to write them off. Now when I encounter disrespect in the industry, I am more likely to politely address it. It all depends on the situation though.

And frankly, there’s always a calculation of whether or not it’s worth it to say something.

I wish that everyone was more introspective with how they interact with other people in all cases, especially when it comes to gender expectations. People have to want to work with you and people have to respect you.

CP: Follow up question. Have you found that this disrespect has come from more men or women?

KL: Men, definitely. But that question makes me a little uncomfortable, as I have found the community to be, on the whole, very welcoming, very respectful, very positive, so honestly, that has been the overarching theme for me; very positive.

However, I’ve also experienced some pretty classic examples of sexism. For example, I attended a meeting earlier this year where I was the only woman at the table and it was assumed by the person I was meeting that I was there to take notes. So that was, you know, very frustrating.

Or there was another meeting this year where the men at the table, who all knew each other well, set up a dynamic in which it was really difficult to work my way into the conversation. Those two instances were very frustrating, and you never know how much of it comes from gender, or age, or just someone thinking,  ‘well if I don’t know you already then you can’t be worth my time’. You never know what the exact balance of factors is, but I’m sure there’s always some element of gender.  You have to figure out a way to correct for it though, so with that situation, I went home and thought about how I could help those people and hopefully establish a positive working relationship.

So instead of pointing out to him that he was rude and talked over me for an hour, I tried to make it worth his while to register me as someone worth his respect.

And here is perhaps my favorite question to ask these women.

CP: In your opinion, how can men be more aware or informed about women in the music industry?

KL: I think that making spaces for new voices is really important. I try to think about this with myself as well. In the grand scheme of things, I am a pretty new manager. However, I am also the co-chair of Women in Music Boston, which is a non-profit organization that works to amplify the efforts of women across the music industry, and I am always reminding myself that while I am trying to learn from women mentors in artist management who are much farther along, I can also open doors to women who are years behind me in coming up in the music industry.

I think that this is a really important mentality regardless of gender, but I do think that men often do talk over people a lot, talk over women a lot. In the music industry, people are always clamoring for their voices to be heard, like, LITERALLY, so I think men should be more aware of how much space they’re taking up at the metaphorical microphone, and pass it to more women. Making sure your events are being hosted in a space that feels safe to women, making sure women know that they can report inappropriate behavior if it is your space.

Sidebar: A kudos shout out I want to give goes to a band in town called Future Teens. I went to one of their shows, and they had a text-line that you could text if someone in the space has made you feel unsafe in some way. One of the singers in the band named Daniel announced that at the show and it was awesome. That kind of ally-ship is super concrete.  

But anyway, it’s just important to think about how you can open doors to younger women managers. The people you mentor don’t always have to look exactly like you, you know? Seeking out new perspectives, new backgrounds, new lived experiences will make all of our work better. I just think more men should think about the way that they make their spaces feel welcoming - physical spaces and intellectual spaces.

CP: What message do you want to display as a woman in the managerial field?

KL: The music industry, like many industries, is built on relationships, and I think the message that I want to send, as myself, but also as a woman in the music industry, is that we should all be treating each other with respect, and treating each other well, and building relationships from a place of mutual respect and level footing, as much as possible.

There are so many power imbalances in the music industry, and I want people to feel like they can come to me and that I will treat them with respect regardless of our history or experiences. The frustrations that women experience in the music industry come from a lack of respect. I can’t tell you the number of times I’ve seen women-fronted bands, getting sound-checked on stage saying, ‘I need more of this in my monitor’, or ‘This is sounding weird’, and the engineer doesn’t take them seriously because he doesn’t think they know their instrument. That just seems absolutely crazy to me.

So at the end of the day, I think that lack of respect is the frustrating part, and if we all focus more on creating an environment of mutual respect, especially for women who need to fight harder to get it, that would make things a lot better.

CP: What words of wisdom/encouragement do you have for aspiring women in this field?

KL: I love that question. That you can totally do it and that people will welcome you into this field! It is less scary than you think it’ll be. There’s a wonderful network of support out there, to find your crowd and celebrate them and to keep your head down and do the work, and don’t worry too much about what other people think.

Thank you, Kristina, for your thoughtful answers and honest conversation! The blog’s purpose isn’t just to bring these gender-issues to light but to also provide ways for men to be advocates and supporters of their women-peers and co-workers. I challenge everyone to be more self-aware and observant of your workplace. You might be surprised by what you find.

For now, thank you for reading, and stay tuned for the next installment of the ‘Women in Folk’ blog!

-Katie