#lulawiles

Club Passim: Talk a little about your experiences as a female artist/all-female group in a heavily male-dominated music genre.

Isa Burke: It’s such a double-edged sword. That’s something I always come back to. Being a member of an all-female band vs. just being a female musician are totally different experiences too. I think often times women will start bands with other women because they know they won’t be belittled or talked down to, they know that their bandmates will assume that they generally know what they’re talking about, or they’ll feel comfortable enough to voice something if they don’t know it. This happened all the time at Berklee when I was the only girl in my classes. If I didn’t know something I would be too afraid to ask because I didn’t want all the guys in the room to think, ‘Well of course she doesn’t know this because she’s a woman,’ when in fact a lot of them probably didn’t know what that thing was either.

Being in an all-women band is so amazing. That’s a huge reason why I started playing lead guitar. When Ellie and I played duo, we were playing all of these country songs and I just said, “Wouldn’t it be funny if I took a guitar solo? I don’t really know how to do that’. But then I started doing it, and then I started getting pretty good at it. I think if I had been in a band with men, I wouldn’t have been comfortable trying to do this thing I’m not very good at yet but will get better at. We’re all very supportive of each other in the band.

Biases can come in many different forms. For example, when I was just starting to play electric guitar, my friend asked me to play a gig with them. We were rehearsing and I borrowed my friend’s pedal because I was still new to the electric and didn’t have my own set-up figured out yet. One of the other band members asked me, “Oh, is that your pedalboard?” And I just thought to myself, ‘Motherf*cker, you would never have asked ANOTHER GUY if that was their pedal board, you’re asking me because I’m a girl.’ But it wasn’t my pedal board. I didn’t want him to think that women can’t own sick pedal boards and by the way, I have a sick pedal board now, so I think I just ended up lying and saying that it was mine.

I’ve also noticed real differences in how people talk to me about my fiddle playing vs. my guitar playing. People expect women to take fiddle solos more than guitar solos. Often there’s a tone of surprise when they compliment me on my guitar playing because they’re not expecting it, you know? All of these things are very subtle and most of the time people probably don’t even realize or notice the little biases that they have. I take very seriously the role that I have to be visible to other women and men. I get really psyched when I see a young boy in the audience at a gig and I take a guitar solo because then he’s not going to grow up thinking only men can play the guitar, and maybe if he starts a band he’ll hire a woman guitarist. But of course, inspiring the young gals is my literal favorite thing in life. I feel really lucky that I have a platform to move the needle a little bit and help break down these biases.

CP: Do you notice a difference in how you’re treated by other artists, venues, audiences, and industry professionals before vs. after you play?

IB: Yes, I’ve definitely noticed it more when Lula Wiles was younger. We’d walk in to play a gig and here were three girls in floral-print dresses with our “little band”, but then we get on stage and you see three multi-instrumentalist women doing their thing and playing pretty powerfully. That’s when people usually figure out we know what we’re doing.

I have heard some crazy stories from other people though. For example, a friend of mine was an instructor at a music camp and after she played in the faculty concert one time, one of the other faculty members who was a guy came up to her and her bandmate and said, “At first I thought of you two as sexual objects but now I know you’re also great musicians.” I think he thought he was joking but like, come. On. My blood still boils every time I think about it.

CP: Incredible classical artists such as classical pianist Yuja Wang use their performance attire as a way to express themselves. This provocative style of dress has been viewed as “distracting” from the music. What are your personal thoughts on women using fashion and sex-appeal as a means of bringing in more audience members and assisting in selling their music?

IB: Another one I could talk about all day. It’s so complicated, right? You want to look good and feel good on stage. That is usually my primary goal when I am getting dressed for a show: ‘what will make me feel good and enable me to give the best possible show?’ A lot of times it feels like putting on armor.

As women, it is drilled into our heads that we have to look attractive, that we have to look sexy. It’s really hard to escape that. I never want to fault women for using that phenomenon to their advantage, but I also want the music world to be a hospitable place for women who don’t want to do that, who want to just wear a t-shirt and sneakers on stage and not wear make-up and sound incredible. 

I still don’t really know where I come down on that one, to be honest, but I had a really great conversation with my bandmates in the van last week. We were talking about the “whatever choice you choose to make is a feminist choice”  brand of feminism, but we had a problem with that. The thing is, all choices can’t be equal choices if some are rewarded by society and certain others are punished.

It’s really important to interrogate your own desires. Ask yourself, ‘am I doing this because it makes me feel more like myself? Or am I doing this because it makes me feel more acceptable to the world?’ Until all traces of patriarchy are gone from the world, which will probably never happen, we won’t ever really know what our true deepest desires are because they are so shaped by the world around us. At the end of the day, it’s important to constantly ask yourself questions, interrogate, and critique.

CP: What do you do in a situation when you feel disrespected by the artists/co-workers you’re surrounded by?

IB: It depends on the situation. If someone is blatantly rude to me I would probably just call them out on it and walk away. But if someone does something a little more subtle or if they show a bias they have, I will try to find a way to poke at that in a friendly way. For example the pedal board guy. I probably would have said something like, “Well, what makes you think this isn’t my pedal board? Why wouldn’t it be?” It’s a hard balance because you do want to stand up for yourself, but you also want to reach them, right? You hopefully want to change someone’s mind a little bit.

Sometimes people will give my bandmate Mali a condescending or patronizing compliment such as, “Oh you sweet girl, you play such nice music! You must have been gifted this talent”, and what I love that she does is she’ll say something like, “Oh well, thank you, but I actually just practiced a ton and worked hard to get good at my instrument.” I think letting people in on the hard work musicians have to put in can shift their perceptions in a subtle way.

CP: In your opinion, how can men be more aware or informed about their women peers and co-workers in the music industry?

IB: First off, I think that it’s really important to examine your own perceptions and try to figure out where you might have a bias, which is not your fault and is the fault of society. Take a mental inventory of the way you regard your male musician friends, versus the way you regard your female musician friends and see if there are any significant differences. Really try to dig into why you think that may be.

The second thing I would say is to make a conscious effort to hire women. Try to stay away from all-dude bands. I think that men instinctively go to other men when starting a band because they’re more visible in this male-dominated industry, but I think with a slight mental adjustment you can find equally qualified women who maybe haven’t been given as many opportunities, even though they deserve the opportunities just as much. That also has the pleasant side effect of increasing visibility for women, and I cannot say enough how important it is for people to see themselves represented. It’s something I focus on a lot.

There’s also a real premium and value placed on being able to “shred” on your instrument and being technically proficient; I saw this at Berklee a lot. I know a lot of women who can seriously shred on their instrument, but this value placed on shredding is so prominent amongst men, and I just don’t think that’s the most important thing about music. A lot of my favorite musicians aren’t that technically proficient but play with such emotion and musicality. I love getting to hear musicians play on their second or third instruments because they can’t fall back on their muscle memory and so they have no choice but to express themselves. Remember what music is all about.

CP: What message do you want to display as a woman in folk music?

IB: Overall, what I want to project into the world is that there is nothing weird about a band of women in floral dresses who have hairy legs and play the shit out of their instruments. Those things can all co-exist very peacefully. I think it is equally important to increase visibility to women and trans/non-binary people in the music industry so that we can eliminate the expectation that only certain genders can do certain things; who can be a producer, who can be a band leader, who can play drums, who can play guitar. I think that it didn’t even occur to me that I could be a producer until I heard about women producers. It didn’t occur to me that I could be a drummer (one of my secret but not-so-secret dreams) until I heard about women drummers.

I want to make people aware we all have certain biases that aren’t our fault. We’re all born into a world that creates those biases in us, but it is our responsibility to dismantle them and un-learn them.

I also want to pass on all the help and opportunities that were given to me when I was first starting out. There were a lot of incredible women that gave us the chance to open for them, as well as some great men like Matt Smith and Matt Glaser who helped us out and guided us, and now that I’m in a position where I can help others out I want to do that because so many people did it for me.

CP: What words of wisdom/encouragement do you have for aspiring women in folk?

IB: Keep an eye out for the sexist bullsh*t, but also give men a chance to surprise you. A lot of them can learn. Plan for the worst, hope for the best. That’s what I try to approach every new situation with. I also think that collaborating with other women will pretty much always give you a huge confidence boost. I think that playing with women will give you a chance to explore parts of your musical identity you haven’t before, which will give you more confidence the next time you’re in a rehearsal and some guy makes a comment assuming you don’t know how to play your instrument.

Our society tries to put women in a box, and I think really trying to see the box as clearly as you can so you know how to break out of it is important. Recognize that women are often working with a confidence deficit, and ‘fake it till you make it’ is honestly one of the best pieces of advice I can give to anyone. Obviously, know your weaknesses, know what you need to work on and work hard at it. Hit the shed and work hard but don’t feel like you have to be totally perfect at everything. There’s a common feeling among women that you have to be twice as good to get half the recognition. But try to say f*ck that. Whenever you can.

                                                           ~

Thank you, Isa, for such a thoughtful and eye-opening interview! You have such wonderful and informed opinions. I think we can all learn from this and try to examine our own biases a little more. 

When’s the last time you’ve given your judgments a second thought?

Thanks again to Isa, and thank you for reading! Stay tuned for the next installment of the ‘Women in Folk’ blog!

Katie