Apollo's Nook On The Internet

TLDR: people who believe in the concept of transandrophobia, aka specific oppression towards transmascs, in conjuction or in opposition to transmisogyny, the specific oppression of transfems and the intersection of transphobia and misogyny. TMA = transmisogyny affected, referring only to transfeminine people, and TME = transmisogyny exempt; aka anyone else. long version with more theory and explanation under the cut.

Thank you for asking! Went back to when Chapter 2 first released and dug up some old posts for this.

Kris and Spamton's relationship is very well defined by now, but Ralsei and Spamton's is practically ignored by the fandom, despite their similarities being alluded to in canon! TLDR they're both puppets of fate with drastically different approaches to how they handle the existential dread.

So Ralsei and Spamton have some surface level comparisons. Like how they both make Kris be alone with them, with Ralsei shifting the POV and Spamton asking Kris to leave their buddies behind. They also both went from nothing to greatness- Ralsei had an empty kingdom before he met the Lightners of prophecy, and Spamton went from living in a dumpster to serving the heroes of legend.

Going larger in scope and they start to diverge. Ralsei is devil themed (red horned goat, called the 'Prince from the dark', the goal of the prophecy is to banish the Angel's Heaven) while Spamton is very angelic with his whole deal of worship and wanting to see heaven. And of course the biggest place they differ is in personality. Ralsei purposefully quashes his feelings in order to be as agreeable and welcoming as possible, and Spamton is abrasive and dangerous because he raises himself higher than others. They are almost perpendicular in temperament and sense of self. (All that in particular isn't what make them foils, it just makes them better ones.)

One hugely important thing to take into account- I wrestled with putting this part first in fact- is Ralsei and Spamton's relationship with Kris. Ralsei is borne from Kris' desire to fit in with their family and friends; he is their want to belong. In a less abstract sense, he also seemingly exists to remind Kris of Asriel and prevent them from being lonely. The introduction of Spamton makes Kris face their feelings of loneliness, ostracism, and powerlessness. He constantly brings up how similar they are in their lack of control.

Ralsei is escapism and Spamton is reality.

Getting into the meat of it though, the biggest connection between them is that they are both Darkners that actively think about and interact with the concept that they are lesser beings. Now, each and every Darkner has a way they feel about Lightners. They are their gods and masters and creators. But some care more about it than others. Most minor run-of-the-mill Darkners just kind of live their life normally. Spade King, Queen and Seam are some characters that interact with this concept much more closely. To me, Ralsei and Spamton represent the two most drastic ends of the Spectrum of Ways You Could Feel About That. As of Chapter 2 at least.

Take Spade King. He is nihilistic and bereft of hope, but he has not completely surrendered his sense of self. He wants rights for his people, and also selfish gain. He has his son and his wife (<- ??????). He has connections and reasons to fight for his world.

Ralsei and Spamton don't.

To Ralsei, he thinks he is not allowed preferences or wants or needs. He has no particular emotional connection to the world he lives in, because it only exists for Lightners, not for him. He is a tool for the Lightners and only that. He at one point implies that nothing in the dark worlds is 'real', it's all just playing pretend. He wants you to play nice, yes, but ultimately it's all just play. He does not have moral convictions or hills to die on like Spade King. He is, in this specific regard, the opposite of selfish- he is giving his entire self up.

Spamton gives even less of a shit. He has lost all his material possessions and wants everyone he knows to rot in hell. He has no connections. Unlike Ralsei, he is fighting like fucking hell to change his place in the world. When he fights he's not fighting for the world or for the Lighteners, he's fighting for himself only. He wants connections, he wants money, power, all the earthly desires Ralsei denies himself. He wants the whole damn world. He wants to be the best and the greatest and to have EVERYTHING because, to him, Lightners have everything. He's nothing but a Darkner. He covets like no Darkner has coveted before. He is the most selfish in this way.

Ralsei doesn't even have true wants, while Spamton wants everything. Ralsei wants to give everything up to the Lightners and Spamton wants to be like the Lightners that Darkners give eveything up to. They are very close to being pure opposites. One thing that they and all Darkners share though, is that they have no power to make any of their wants true.

Spamton having both his drops tailored to Ralsei is the games way to bridge the massive gap between them. To subtly bring reality into escapism. It's genius, I'm a huge fan of these two as foils.

I was thinking about it and yup that’s kind of true. Which is a little odd, right? Every single UTDR NPC has a character theme, and his is noticeably absent.

For instance, did you notice that Susie's leitmotif - the music track that is literally named after her - doesn't play a single time in chapter 2? In Chapter 1 it played when she was being especially mean and menacing - first to Kris and then to Lancer. But you might expect there to be a softer reprise that plays for this new, "reformed" Susie, wouldn't you? So why isn't there one? It's very strange, and I wonder if that's a hint to something that might happen in a future chapter.

Also, Kris. Does Kris even have a leitmotif? Perhaps, as with Ralsei and the Legend theme, you could argue that Don't Forget is theirs... but again, that hardly plays throughout Chapter 2, and the way it's incorporated throughout both chapters is... inconsistent, shall we say. In any case, I don't think you can definitively state that Don't Forget is Kris's theme specifically.

Maybe it has something to do with being "lost" kids? People that are falling through the cracks, or have been neglected and forgotten about. Noelle and Berdly both have definitive leitmotifs, but as more of their characters are made clear to us, and they grow and develop throughout chapter 2, they are permitted to have reprisals of those themes. The music tells a story about these characters, and concludes with them on the path to becoming more well-adjusted.

But Kris and Ralsei - and to a slightly lesser extent Susie - don't seem to have been afforded that privilege - not yet at least. And I think, in the same way that Noelle and Berdly's evolving leitmotifs showcase their growth and development, the absence of the same for the Fun Gang suggests that they have a very, VERY long way to go before they reach that point, and that their troubles are going to get much worse before they start to get better.

So then, I already established that both Noelle and Berdly get sad reprises of their themes - for Noelle we have "Lost Girl", and for Berdly we have "Bluebird of Misfortune", both slower, low-key versions of their respective melodies. But when do these play? For Berdly, it's when Susie's goading finally forces him to admit that his intellegence is just a facade, and in Noelle's case it's when she's all alone, in a room that showcases her deepest insecurities. In other words - these more sorrowful renditions of their leitmotifs play when the characters' established identities are called into question, forcing us to consider them in a new light, revealing new aspects to them that we did not know or appreciate before.

Now, what's telling about Susie? She doesn't have a reprise of her leitmotif, and that's because for her, the moment her identity is in doubt hasn't yet occurred. Even at the point where she was literally about to kill Lancer in cold blood, her sense of self hasn't wavered. She's let her guard down a little bit, but she hasn't yet hit crisis point the same way that Berdly and Noelle have, however briefly.

And that leads us to Kris and Ralsei, two sides of the same coin. We discussed that Ralsei's leitmotif could be the Legend, and in the same way that Kris's leitmotif could be considered Don't Forget. But this is wrong, because those melodies are not about them. The Legend is literally about the Prophecy, this big, nebulous and grand idea that Ralsei has slavishly devoted himself to above seemingly all other concerns. And Don't Forget is the main theme of Deltarune, the video game where you play as Kris... or rather, where you puppeteer their body - potentially against their will - through the events of a game that are entirely predetermined and have no alternate outcome (big asterisk there, but that's for another time).

So! The themes you would mostly associate with these character's aren't even their themes to begin with, but rather represent the forces that are controlling them. Thus, looping this idea back to the idea of a character's leitmotif helping to showcase their identity, we come to our answer: Kris and Ralsei do not have leitmotifs, because for all intents and purposes neither of them actually have an identity to call their own. Whatever identity they might possess is overshadowed, almost subsumed, by the greater powers that they find themselves in thrall to. And this makes sense, because we know next to nothing about either of them.

The implications of this are staggering, because it suggests that the two of them will have to essentially reforge their own identities, compose their own leitmotifs, take control of their own destinies from the vast, unknowable forces of both the Narrative and the Player. And when they do... hoo boy.

acid tunnel of love in general is a pretty awkward sounding song. or at least that's the immediate vibe I got when I heard it out of context before getting into dr. it sounds like its trying to have that cute vibe ferris wheel does but its not quite there. (there's a very big contrast between those two songs and also the scenes in general but that's a whole other can of worms). and the thing that really throws it off is that sudden, jarring piano (or at least that's what stood out to me when I first heard it lol)

kris plays piano. we have this song that plays during a romantic cutscene between them and Ralsei, where its implied the romance is one-sided, and in the song there is that piano which seems jarring compared to the rest of the song. piano, which kris is associated with. and I think that kinda encapsulates the position they're in here - the narrative pushing this generic rpg romance route, that prince/knight dynamic, when they dont seem interested. but it also just seems representative of their position in the narrative in general - something which is highlighted a lot in this scene anyway. (Ralsei arguably has a similar position here with his own lack of autonomy due to the narrative but that's a whole other analysis). and then there's the fact that neither of them have motifs that could actually be used in this song so instead it just uses lancers's motif, as like a general side-plot cutscene motif I assume. there isn't even any use of the legend motif for Ralsei. again, this is a pretty big contrast to ferris wheel, which uses Noelle's motif pretty clearly (or at least one associated with her). there's a whole analysis to be had here about the commentary/subversion on romance routes in rpgs but im sure plenty of people have already discussed that

To take your thought a little further, note how harsh and low the piano is in contrast to the rest of the track, like someone's smashing the keys as hard as they can in frustration, in contrast to the other instruments which are much softer and more dynamic. Also, pay attention to what notes are being played on the piano, a very short arpeggio(?) consisting of D#, F and G, and nothing else. A very limited piece of music that only uses a small range of the available notes and pitches normally available to a piano player. If we map this onto Kris as a character, we can see how it fits with their situation as having to play a heavily restricted role in their own life, and perhaps expressing frustration at the direction that their friendship with Ralsei is being pushed in by the narrative - on this point I have written an inordinate amount of analysis and theorycrafting, so for sanity's sake I shan't go into it here, haha!

As you mention the music using Lancer's leitmotif here as well in lieu of any music which might be considered Kris's or Ralsei's, I have also rambled a great deal about this on another post by @ace-robot-has-matcha discussing this very topic (read it here if you like) deconstructing how their lack of leitmotifs in Deltarune are directly related to their agency being suppressed by higher powers (The player for Kris and the Narrative for Ralsei), and how part of their journey is about trying to break free from those powers and forge their own destinies - and given their connections to music with Kris's piano playing and Ralsei singing, I don't think it's too far-fetched to consider that perhaps these two will create their OWN leitmotifs to reflect that newfound freedom.

I'm very very Normal about this as you can doubtless tell XD

and yeah, I saw ur analysis on their leitmotifs, it was super interesting, that's actually where I came across the idea! completely forgot to mention that, that's my bad.

I agree! I think this is a much better word to describe what’s happening in the actual text (for anyone who doesn’t know, it refers to the societal idea that every person must seek a romantic relationship). what noelle and kris are experiencing is being forced together through abuse that involves superficially romantic gestures. there is nothing in the game that suggests noelle feels pressured to be with kris because of anyone’s outside perception of them as a boy, or that noelle feels pressured to be with a boy rather than any other gender at all. we can surmise that sexism and gender roles still exist in the world of deltarune, and thus probably some degree of homophobia + transphobia as well, but there’s no indication that this is directly encouraged by anyone in hometown itself as opposed to just being a societal norm. (not yet, anyway. things could be made clearer in the future).

for the heteronormativity reading to work you need to include a lot more context than just the contents of the game- you need to consider the outside perspective of some players (the overwhelming assumption/insistence by those who don’t understand or respect nonbinary identities that kris is male), the history of the RPG genre (a leader and knight is much more likely to be male, and a physically weak mage more likely female), and of course the biases of the world that WE live in, whether or not this also affects the characters in the game (the institution of marriage itself being between a man and a woman). if you don’t look at those things as part of or an addition to the text, then it just sounds at best like a reach or at worst enforcing the idea that kris is “male-coded”. on its face it’s not self-evident and also not the strongest or most important interpretation, so it kind of gets under my skin when people take for granted that this reading is just “true” or “the point” when it’s only one way to see things.

even with the amatonormativity reading though, I don’t think that’s a perfect description of what’s going on either. it’s not that noelle feels pressured to be in a romantic relationship in general, when given the option she’s actively pursuing one with susie and seems very excited about it. if anybody’s struggling with amatonormativity it’s berdly lmao. rather, noelle is being manipulated into a closer relationship with kris/the player INSTEAD of one with susie. she winds up as half of a couple either way.