Untitled

SINCE IT IS SUDDENLY A TOPIC OF GREAT INTEREST.

BRITISH COLONIALISM;

SPANISH COLONIALISM;

PORTUGUESE COLONIALISM;

ITALIAN COLONIALISM;

FRENCH COLONIALISM;

JAPANESE COLONIALISM;

ARABIC COLONIALISM;

AMERICAN COLONIALISM;

ISRAEL;

WOW. SUCH COLONY. VERY SETTLE.

WORDS HAVE MEANINGS. CAN WE STOP PRETENDING THIS WAS EVER ABOUT COLONIALISM?

Did the Jews instigate the Holocaust by killing civilians and taking hostages? Did the Jewish population grow in Europe in 1945 (like how Gaza's population has grown in the past year)? Did the Nazis give the Jews leaflets and phone calls warning them before bombings?

I once vehemently hated Israel and demonized its very existence. I am intimately aware of how those who feel this way think, why they believe what they do.

Here is what scares me.

There is an absolute certainty and self-righteousness, a confidence in so many who hold these beliefs. I have felt it. I know beyond a doubt I would still be steadfast in my hatred if not for one thing.

I lived in an ideological bubble with primarily non-Jewish radicalized self-identified activists with far-left political beliefs. I had always recognized many self-contradictory and authoritarian sentiments among my peers, but being a survivor of psychological abuse conditioned me to be vulnerable to taking on the beliefs of others as a tactic of survival, even when something feels wrong inside. However, I felt so deeply certain and right about my hatred of Israel in the name of support for Palestinians.

What made me reconsider my beliefs was a close and safe relationship with another Jewish person who disagreed with me. I was rightfully questioned for having biased and unreliable sources of information that did not provide appropriate references or historical context and used antisemitic tropes in how they framed the conflict. I was challenged on the antisemitic beliefs I had internalized and my universalization of our peoples’ specific traumas an pain, my unwillingness to humanize us and examine how incompatible my beliefs were particularly with my beliefs in the area of Indigenous issues.

Many, if not most, antizionists will never do this. They have dehumanized any Jew who does not agree with them so thoroughly that their words, their pain, their knowledge, is completely null and void.

That’s not me.

I hurt the person who changed me. It hurt me to hurt him. It changed me to realize I could believe something so wholeheartedly, and not only be wrong but be so hurtful. And the more I learned, researched, and connected and spoke with people who have lived experience, the more I realized that for having such strong and incorrect opinions… I knew so little.

I would say that now, I know more on the history of Israel and more broadly the Middle East than a lot of other Jewish people I know. I am more deeply connected with Jewish history and culture, and with myself as a Jewish person because of it. I am not Jewish as a performance of morality, I am Jewish as a continuity of thousands of years of history that my ancestors fought to preserve.

When someone accuses me of having been brainwashed by some zionist industrial complex, I just laugh. I had no Jewish education growing up. I had no connection to my Jewishness at all. Jewishness was a family story and a menorah put out in December. A longing for something lost, that I fought to get back. No. I was brainwashed by people who I trusted, who I risked my life for, who I spent countless hours talking about life with and who knew me better than my own family. And once I became proud and secure in my Jewish identity, unwilling to compromise on it, they all left. Every single one. Some hurt me badly on the way out.

I wonder if you can share the definition of Zionism with us, and explain why it is fascist?

Reblogging here as you are not allowing comments…

I mean ... this is clearly not the case. I'm not sure why you felt the need to tell this obvious lie. Weird way to start off this discussion.

I wonder if you can share the definition of Zionism with us,

Before 1948, Zionism was the ideology which supported the establishment of a Jewish national home in Eretz Yisrael, in historic Palestine. Since the State of Israel was established in 1948 as the (nominal) fulfilment of that goal, Zionism has become the ideology which supports the continuation and consolidation of the State of Israel.

and explain why it is fascist?

The first part about Zionism is not the definition, it is simpler: Israel as a Jewish home country, the only one Jews have, acknowledging their belonging and connection to the place.

The second part you wrote, has nothing to do with reality, and certainly not with Zionism, so the connection you made is not relying on any logic.

If your definition of genocide is multiplying population every 20 years since 1967 (according to the UN), you're right, unfortunately this is not the definition.

You're miles away from Israel, applying your values that has nothing to do with the middle east, adding some BS propaganda you read somewhere, where it is cool to have an opinion, but not to study in depth, hence superficial and shallow knowledge full of buzzwords, and... this is the result.

In the meanwhile people are dying here.

Example: Abu Ubeida you mentioned in the first post, is Hamas spokesman. A religious extremist organisation, rooted with the Islamic Brotherhood (Ikhwan), who care less about anyone's life, and certainly does not recognise Israel, or the Palestinian authority (which they slaughtered when they took over Gaza).

The Hamas is famous for their evil treatment of LGBTQ, their own population (using them as human shields), corruption, oh.. and breaking the ceasefire in October 7th where they attacked Israel (not anywhere in Gaza), murdered, tortured, raped, and also did some infanticide.

If you do not understand why the Hamas is bad for the Israelis and Palestinians, and worst than that, can't show any compassion for Palestinian and Israeli victims, way ahead you're coming with silly zionism declarations... well clearly you're disconnected from what's happening here, yet... you have an opinion.

I'm glad for you that you live in a place that you can have one and express it, unlike my Palestinian neighbours who are not allowed to express it when Hamas is around.

Actually... you know what... you in the west, miles away from here, you know better than us.

I did. All my replies are open to everyone. I do not know how to restrict them and do not care to know because I prefer to meet my interlocutors head on, as I am doing now. If you're having trouble replying to my posts, that issue seems to be extremely specific to you.

The first part about Zionism is not the definition,

I assure you it is!

it is simpler: Israel as a Jewish home country, the only one Jews have, acknowledging their belonging and connection to the place.

I'm actually going to take the moderate stance on this one: I've seen a lot of "Jews are really from somewhere other than Israel" conspiracising going around on Twitter and I want no part of it. Am Yisrael has a connection to historic Palestine and I respect that. It does not justify empire, colonisation, or genocide.

As for the argument about "the only country Jews have," this may shock you, but nobody is entitled to an ethnostate!

The second part you wrote, has nothing to do with reality, and certainly not with Zionism, so the connection you made is not relying on any logic.

By "the second part you wrote," I assume you mean the one beginning with "Because it established a racial supremacist state". In fact it does have everything to do with reality, and certainly with Zionism. Let me break it down for you:

Israel is a racial supremacist state: "The right to exercise national self-determination in the State of Israel is unique to the Jewish people" (Basic law: Israel — the nation-state of the Jewish people, 2018). "Israel is not a state of all its citizens ... Israel is the nation state of the Jewish people — and theirs alone" (Netanyahu, 2019). "A stated aim of the Israeli government is to ensure that Jewish Israelis maintain domination across Israel and the [occupied Palestinian territories]" (Shakir et al., 2021).

Israel depended on ethnic cleansing to exist at the beginning of the Nakba: "[Plan Dalet] spilled it out clearly and unambiguously: the Palestinians had to go ... When it was over, more than half of Palestine's native population, close to 800,000 people, had been uprooted, 531 villages had been destroyed, and eleven urban neighbourhoods emptied of their inhabitants" (Pappé, 2006, pp. 86 et seq.).

Israel depends on ethnic cleansing to exist now: "The perception of Palestinians inside Israel [is] as an internal demographic threat or enemies who must be either expelled, excluded, or controlled" (Amnesty International, 2022, p. 68). "Israeli public officials have openly advocated for another Nakba" (UN Office of the High Commissioner for Human Rights, 2023).

Israel exhibits autocracy: "Israel is effectively imitating similar steps taken by elected autocrats taken in Poland and Hungary" (Rubin, 2023); "planned changes would erode almost all institutional checks and balances, concentrating immense power in the hands of the executive" (Lieblich & Shinar, 2023).

Israel exhibits authoritarianism shading toward totalitarianism: "On Nov. 8, the Knesset passed an amendment to the Counterterrorism Law, introducing a new criminal offence — 'consumption of terrorist materials' — that carries a maximum penalty of one year in prison ... The Association for Civil Rights in israel warned that the legislation has no precedent in any democracy elsewhere in the world" (Goodfriend, 2023). "The growth of extremist religious ideologies in Israeli politics and moves to water down judicial independence threaten to make the country more authoritarian, Middle East experts have warned" (Saleh, 2023); "even without the current legislative fiasco, Israel has long been a completely totalitarian state" (Michael, 2023).

Israel is militaristic: "Israel ... is a highly militaristic state ... [it] exhibits obvious militaristic characteristics, which defy any classically assumed 'Western democratic' attributes" (Maziad, n.d.); "Israeli society is one of the most militarized in the world ... There is no doubt that the structure of the country is based on the Army and on the concept of 'one people'" (Císcar, n.d.).

Israel is committing genocide: Even before the current war, "Israeli policies that were enacted after the introduction of [the post-2005 Gaza blockade] amount to slow-motion genocide" (Nijim, 2022), but now, "the assault on Gaza can also be understood ... as a textbook case of genocide" (Segal, 2023).

If your definition of genocide is multiplying population every 20 years since 1967 (according to the UN), you're right, unfortunately this is not the definition.

First, if you have to put words in my mouth to try to "win" this argument, that speaks to a lack of confidence in your own facts.

Second, my definition of genocide is the one given in Article 2 of the UN Genocide Convention of 1951:

You will note that the key factor here is intent. The fact that Palestinians have been able to resist Israel's attempts to destroy them, or that Israel has been restrained from or incompetent in its attempt to commit genocide, is irrelevant. If that weren't the case you wouldn't be able to call out a genocide while it was happening — you would have to wait until everybody was dead.

(Also just as a side note this kind of shit is a pretty common pro-genocide dogwhistle — "how can we be committing genocide against them when they breed like animals?" If you think this is slick I seriously encourage you to rethink that!)

You're miles away from Israel, applying your values that has nothing to do with the middle east

The nature of certain behaviours as ethical or unethical does not change depending on whether one is currently located in Eurasia between the 28th and 61st parallels East. Hope this helps!

adding some BS propaganda you read somewhere

Yes sorry I'll stop reading Haaretz, Ynet and +972 Magazine. I should stick to sources that are closer to the action, such as the New York Post.

In the meanwhile people are dying here.

The Palestinians who are dying in Gaza are dying because the IDF is indiscriminately bombing them (Amnesty International, 2023) or running them over with bulldozers (Euro-Mediterranean Human Rights Monitor, 2023). As there are no current Palestinian resistance incursions into Israel, the Israelis who are dying are dying because Palestinians are killing them in self-defence ... or because the IDF is indiscriminately bombing them (Abraham, 2023) or shelling them (Porat, in Limone, 2023) or shooting them while they're waving white flags (Tabachnick et al., 2023). This seems like important context!

Example: Abu Ubeida you mentioned in the first post, is Hamas spokesman. A religious extremist organisation, rooted with the Islamic Brotherhood (Ikhwan), who care less about anyone's life, and certainly does not recognise Israel, or the Palestinian authority (which they slaughtered when they took over Gaza).

I'm not a big fan of Hamas' politics or theology but I'd have a lot more time for this type of handwringing if the government currently committing genocide in Gaza didn't include UTJ, Otzma, and Shas.

The Hamas is famous for their evil treatment of LGBTQ

Yeah, yeah, "they'll throw you off a building". A bit of warmed-over Israeli homonationalism is an essential part of a complete breakfast. Guess what: there are plenty of LGBTQ+ Palestinians who Israel is currently slaughtering along with their counterparts, but even if there weren't, to the extent that Palestinian society exhibits systematic queerphobia and transphobia it is not at all unique in doing so, but even if it were, people do not need to have social politics I agree with in order to deserve to live, because if they did many more people would be dead! Please get a new argument!

their own population (using them as human shields)

Yes the thing about using human shields is that if Hamas were actually doing that then it would have stopped by now because the strategy is ineffective: when it comes to Palestinian civilians in its lines of fire, Israel clearly could not give less of a shit. But like also beyond the obvious illogic of the proposal, repeated investigations have not found that Hamas uses Palestinians as human shields (Amnesty International, 2009; Human Rights Watch, 2009; Amnesy International UK, 2023; Sabbagh, 2023), so even if it had been a logical thing to suggest, it nonetheless fails as a claim of fact.

You know who does use Palestinian civilians as human shields, though? The IDF (Otto, 2010)! That's right, to the point that the Supreme Court had to issue a ruling banning the practice (Schmitt, 2008, pp. 35 et seq.)! Not, by all accounts, that it seems to have stopped the IDF (Pfeffer, 2010)! Not (Chassay & Borger, 2009) at (UN Committee on the Rights of the Child, 2013, p. 19) all (Hass, 2022)!

corruption

Yes, they're corrupt. So exactly like the PA then (Wintour, 2023)? Not to mention Israel itself, but that goes without saying for really any Western government at all. No elected official or propagandist gives a shit about corruption unless they're selling something.

oh.. and breaking the ceasefire in October 7th

Oooh, I mean aside from the fact that this is complete bullshit because a subjugated population has the overriding right to revolt at any time, if you want to have a conversation about who breaks more ceasefires that's not (Issacharoff, 2012; Harel et al., 2012) going to (Aldabba, 2012; Bar'el, 2012) go well (Sherwood, 2011) for Israel ("Militants cancel ceasefire," 2002) at all (Pear, 1988).

where they attacked Israel (not anywhere in Gaza),

Yes generally the target of military operations is the other side. I hope this clears things up.

murdered,

I believe when you kill someone in a war it's called a KIA. If they're a civilian, that's a different matter, but according to the IDF that's just collateral damage no matter how close the demographic curve of the slain hews to the demographics of the general population.

tortured, raped, and also did some infanticide.

Let's put aside for the moment the fact that these accusations are either poorly substantiated (e.g., "CNN report claiming sexual violence," 2023; Keller-Lynn, 2023) or have been outright retracted (e.g., Chance et al., 2023) or debunked (e.g., Tenbarge & Chan, 2023; Scahill, 2023). Let's put aside the commonsense observation that atrocity propaganda designed to non-optionally force an immediate and uncritical polarisation and reaction has been an extremely standard part of war since time immemorial. Let's also put aside the observation that it strains credulity to think that when time was of the essence, a irregular force with no air cover or armour support tasked to take hostages and take them back to Gaza would have stopped to commit some recreational atrocities along the way. Let's additionally ignore that the alleged atrocities on 7 October don't tally with the consistent lack of reports of Hamas ill-treatment of the hostages, who were far more concretely and inescapably under their power. Let's furthermore ignore that treating racialised men as essentially walking threats of sexual violence is an extremely common part of institutional racism.

If soldiers committing atrocities during war, or even military forces perpetrating atrocities on a systematic basis, irreparably delegitimises the cause in which those soldiers and forces were serving, then we — The Good Guys, Western Civilisation™ — including Israel (Al Issa & Beck, 2020; Medien, 2021) — are in for a hell of a shock (Biddiscombe, 2001; Anderson, 2015). The reality is that Hamas could have committed all of the atrocities attributed to it on 7 October, including the ones we know it didn't, and it would not negate to the severity of even one iota the inalienable right of the Palestinian people to be free.

If you do not understand why the Hamas is bad for the Israelis and Palestinians

I imagine Hamas is bad for Israelis. Whether it is bad for Palestinians is for them to decide as a people. I know plenty of Palestinians who do not support Hamas. I also know plenty who do.

and worst than that, can't show any compassion for Palestinian and Israeli victims

It is actually fairly important to me that my friends in Petah Tikva and West Jerusalem should not be sacrificed to the whims of a settler-colonial war machine which in the end will prove that it loves them no more than it loves Palestinians.

way ahead you're coming with silly zionism declarations… well clearly you're disconnected from what's happening here

Yes, sure, you're special. You're different. The Western-built orphan-crushing machine in the Levant is somehow essentially unlike the ones in Australia, the United States, or anywhere else that one has been tried. Pull the other one, it's got bells on.

I'm glad for you that you live in a place that you can have one and express it, unlike my Palestinian neighbours who are not allowed to express it when Hamas is around.

Kind of laughable to suggest that Hamas primarily acts to prevent Palestinians from having opinions when Hamas itself is the material expression of a broadly shared Palestinian opinion. Now Israel on the other hand ... well, see above.

Actually… you know what… you in the west, miles away from here, you know better than us.

Yeah, I do.

Not because that's how things should be. By all rights, you should be able to stick your head out your door and learn more in fifteen minutes than I could in a day. No, you don't know things because you choose not to. You have a barrow to push and by God you're going to push it no matter how many brick walls you have to go through and how many children have to die along the way.

So yeah, I do know more than you. But you chose that. Just like you chose this. Thanks for playing.

References

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I'll address some of your arguments:

You wrote that Israel is an ethnostate - "a sovereign state of which citizenship is restricted to members of a particular racial or ethnic group." It isn't, as we have a lovely blend of religions, and unlike anywhere else in the middle east, they have full freedom of religion.

You brought some quotes to prove your points, but... it is a mishmash.. let me give you some examples:

A quote from Netanyahu... a prime minister with very little support in Israel (certainly not a majority), without context, and certainly not the law.

You then quoted so many organisations that are fed by Qatar/Aab based money to pin point Israel as the sole evil of the world... This is at best one sided view, at worst a corrupted view. Did you bother checking the other side? probably not, as you're busy patronising remotely...

You continued with the worst evil.. ignoring everyone but Israel. 1948 - Israel independence war agains 8 well armed Arab states, where Israel lost 1% of its population. You talk about 800K Arab refugees, but forget to mention 900K Jewish refugees from Arab countries who fled to Israel. Why?

You also forget to mention that around the same time, in India, a similar situation have happend where Pakistan was created and in that war hundreds of millions of refugees moved between the states, religious based... so...what is the difference?

The difference is that the Indian and Pakistani refugees were considered refugees for one generation, but somehow Palestinians get to be refugees for generations and the countries who accepted them, did not follow UN treaties for refugees and kept them without rights. Why are you not doing anything about that? I guess lack of knowledge and motivation.

You kind of lost me with"Yeah, yeah, "they'll throw you off a building"". "Yeah Yea"? Are you serious? how disrespectful can you be for life??? This is exactly you watching it remotely like a movie without any empathy to any side, busy looking for quotes, while writing one of the most vile sentences I've seen. If you bothered to check the organisation you simphatise so much you would have learned that Hamas is torturing them, shooting them and dragging their boddiess on the street. Throwing of buildings is more ISIS, but you wouldn't care... you'll focus on the target: Israel!

This is where you wrote real BS:

breaking the ceasefire in October 7th

"Oooh, I mean aside from the fact that this is complete bullshit because a subjugated population has the overriding right to revolt at any time..."

There was a cis fire between Israel and Hamas in Gaza. Gaza is independent, no Israelis there (other than 2 kidnapped) before october 7th, they have their own border with Egypt. You still do not know the difference between the Hamas and the population... Clue No elections since the first one Hamas won in 2006... No one allowed to object, as they get shot.

"I believe when you kill someone in a war it's called a KIA. If they're a civilian, that's a different matter, but according to the IDF that's just collateral damage no matter how close the demographic curve of the slain hews to the demographics of the general population."

Incorrect - if you aim to kill civilians it is a different story, geneva convention will not protect you. It is also acknowledged fully by HRW, one of the organisations you quoted, even they couldn't ignore it. I implore you to watch the famous movie that is mainly collected from Hamas webcams... maybe these will break that wall you built over your basic human emotions, as you actually justify the Hamas atrocities... The tourture, rape, murder, infanticide, it happened you deny it, just to make a point, but even António Guterres, head of UN have seen that movie and said it is "Humanity at its worst". https://www.timesofisrael.com/uns-guterres-views-oct-7-hamas-massacre-film-said-to-call-it-humanity-at-its-worst/

So why do you deny it? maybe time to check your sources???

"I imagine Hamas is bad for Israelis. Whether it is bad for Palestinians is for them to decide as a people." - are you that clueless? Hamas holds Gaza by force, no elections, no resistance, if you ever talked to a real Gazan, you probably would have heard differently...Try to write something against them in Gaza, let's see how many hours you'll survive.

I wonder if you can share the definition of Zionism with us, and explain why it is fascist?

Reblogging here as you are not allowing comments…

I mean ... this is clearly not the case. I'm not sure why you felt the need to tell this obvious lie. Weird way to start off this discussion.

I wonder if you can share the definition of Zionism with us,

Before 1948, Zionism was the ideology which supported the establishment of a Jewish national home in Eretz Yisrael, in historic Palestine. Since the State of Israel was established in 1948 as the (nominal) fulfilment of that goal, Zionism has become the ideology which supports the continuation and consolidation of the State of Israel.

and explain why it is fascist?

The first part about Zionism is not the definition, it is simpler: Israel as a Jewish home country, the only one Jews have, acknowledging their belonging and connection to the place.

The second part you wrote, has nothing to do with reality, and certainly not with Zionism, so the connection you made is not relying on any logic.

If your definition of genocide is multiplying population every 20 years since 1967 (according to the UN), you're right, unfortunately this is not the definition.

You're miles away from Israel, applying your values that has nothing to do with the middle east, adding some BS propaganda you read somewhere, where it is cool to have an opinion, but not to study in depth, hence superficial and shallow knowledge full of buzzwords, and... this is the result.

In the meanwhile people are dying here.

Example: Abu Ubeida you mentioned in the first post, is Hamas spokesman. A religious extremist organisation, rooted with the Islamic Brotherhood (Ikhwan), who care less about anyone's life, and certainly does not recognise Israel, or the Palestinian authority (which they slaughtered when they took over Gaza).

The Hamas is famous for their evil treatment of LGBTQ, their own population (using them as human shields), corruption, oh.. and breaking the ceasefire in October 7th where they attacked Israel (not anywhere in Gaza), murdered, tortured, raped, and also did some infanticide.

If you do not understand why the Hamas is bad for the Israelis and Palestinians, and worst than that, can't show any compassion for Palestinian and Israeli victims, way ahead you're coming with silly zionism declarations... well clearly you're disconnected from what's happening here, yet... you have an opinion.

I'm glad for you that you live in a place that you can have one and express it, unlike my Palestinian neighbours who are not allowed to express it when Hamas is around.

Actually... you know what... you in the west, miles away from here, you know better than us.

I wonder if you can share the definition of Zionism with us, and explain why it is fascist?