UnderTheory

Do you guys remember how Omega Flowey talks about “monsters… humans… everyone”? How he changes his face from Toriel to Frisk, to… some kind of moving circles?

Could this possibly be a reference to Darkners? Because Seam’s button eye moves exactly the same way.

[WARNING] 

I’m aware Toby Fox said Delta Rune and Undertale are not connected. Still, I believe he may change his mind in mid development and find a way to connect the two games. No, I’m not kidding. I’m actually serious. Just hear me out.

(This will sound like a wild theory with no solid basis, so consider it idle speculation.)

The Delta Rune as explained by Gerson comes from the world of Delta Rune (game), not from Undertale

Why do I defend this idea?

In Undertale, Gerson states that its origins predate written history. Which means the events of Delta Rune must have happened IN THE PAST. If it’s an alternate past in an alternate universe, that’s another matter altogether.

According to Gerson, the winged circle represents the ANGEL, the one who has seen the Surface, while the three triangles represent the monsters.

The Angel’s Heaven (whatever that name means) is the main antagonist of Delta Rune, according to Ralsei’s legend and prophecy.

Three triangles = three heroes

A winged circle = the Angel, the Knight 

There’s also the fact that the Delta Rune’s original meaning was lost in time. Meaning it could have originated from the universe of Delta Rune (game) without the monsters in Undertale being aware of that.

Now, how could the Delta Rune, the kingdom’s symbol be in the distant past if all the characters in the Delta Rune game - or most of them - are also alive in Undertale?

Something happened in Delta Rune which caused them to forget a big chunk of their past and believe the symbol’s meaning was just “lost in time”. And they believed that theory simply because no historians found any evidence as to where the rune was originated. It was impossible to find it because it didn’t originate in that strange, new world.

The truth is, the events of Delta Rune (game) could have happened only a few years before Undertale. The characters could have been sent to a different world, maybe even an alternate dimension and their memories altered to the point they believed that alternate world was the place they truly came from.

The characters of Undertale would then have NO MEMORY of their true past and just assume whatever new memories they were given must be necessarily true. A war must’ve happened against humans on the Surface. Not of Lightners against Darkners, but of Humans against Monsters. They must’ve locked us down in the underground with the help of seven mages. So, we must collect seven human SOULS to shatter the Barrier.

That would fit with Sans’ allegations that he “can’t go back, no matter how hard he tried”, that there is a character named Suzy (Susie) who we never meet in Undertale, that Gaster’s followers all look like characters from Delta Rune, that strange doors lead to strange places, much like in, Delta Rune, one particular door leads you to the Darkness, where it is said Gaster disappeared into, never to return (DARK, DARKER, YET DARKER). 

And that would fit with the existence of a mysterious KNIGHT, who knows the world is just a game and its characters, merely its participants. A being capable of reshaping the world around them - as demonstrated by the creation of a second Fountain of Darkness -, and possibly even REWRITING its source code.

Such character could literally disfigure the world of Delta Rune to the point it became irrecognisable. It could alter time and space. And its inhabitants would have no memory of it, leading their lives with false memories, believing they were a king, a queen, a scientist, a warrior, a sentry in Snowdin, a doomed prince…

parts of the ruins are a manifestation of suzie and krises fears, desires, and perceptions of the world around them. 

more under the cut since this got long

its all fake. its a ruse or a story or a simulation. it was the warm wishes of someone who slapped together elements they dont own. a literal fantasy.

the story is filled with obvious “secrets”, things that they player would’ve have to dig for, would set off maelstroms of speculation. but theyre not hidden, or even dressed up. theyre just There. unsubtle, and naked in the wind. for example, sans door as the fast travel system. this isnt the style or writing tobys known for, he doesnt just Tell us stuff like that, unless its a misdirection. hes never so Out with it like that.

the story itself is so fantastical, is so literally classically fantasy, that i was expecting gaster or chara to break right through the narrative and rip away all these cute little characters, this Chosen One plot, and these Tailored For Fans sweet moments from the second it started.

this is someonee attempting to Chose to be who they are, just as Gaster(?) said we cannot in the beginning. this is when asgore told you about if you stayed with the monsters, he and toriel and would take care of you and bake you pies and be laughing every and youd be So Happy. but it wasnt true.

and i think the characters know that.

It is really unsubtle as you say, nothing as UnderTale was where we had to read between the lines in a lot of things or connect the timelines. Not saying that something it’s superior, just that it’s different.

Even the ending where they appear again in the closet again and all the game related backgrounds and characters were revealed to be literal board games, in UnderTale probably they would just imply that saying things like “there’s some board games here” and then the player remembering the playtrough or in a new run they would realize that everything was based on board games. This is somethings different, like straight from Alice in Wonderland or something like that.

Also, probably the red heart in the game and the sweater would have been enough in UnderTale for people to connect Kris to Chara and theory about them, it wasn’t necessary to have a gruesome cutscene right from the first chapter.

I think Toby really wants to emulate someone making a fan game, thus making it from a different perspective (maybe as a nod to the multiple fan AU’s). 

Probably in the end it would turn out that it was some sort of fanfic by some character (like the Adventure Time AU that was really a fanfic by Ice King).

i think this game directly plays on our propensity (collectively) to make aus and out own unique spins and ect on undertale.

i dont think that itll end with it All turning out to be a fanfiction? at least not the culmination of all parts of whatever delta rune turns out to be.

i think that the game (in the form of the entity that may or may not be chara or gaster) will call us out on this, and this go on to show us things that show us the futility and falseness of these things. and then possibly validate our acts of creation but chide us for using someone else’s work instead of making our own in perhaps a surprisingly soft ending.

but thats only if toby can manage to draw out the tension that Maybe Gaster created in the beginning of the game. that specific tension is what i think the rest of the game will play on.

also, the writing style was the biggest thing that tipped me off. when you enter the area where you meet ralsei, its so stylistically different from anything in undertale, i audibly scoffed and got ready for the jump scare where chara would Jump through the screen and tell me “DID YOU REALLY THINK” ect ect ect

diagetically, i do think its someone’s fantasy and non diagetically, i think toby was and is lulling us into the narrative.

i think, tying into the au thing, the fantasy is ours. we literally save over kris’s save file and at the end of the game they rip us (the soul) out (could there be anything to the soul/heart being much lager in kris than frisk?)

anyway, i believe that the end of undertale, ripping the player character out of the spotlight and then laying it all at frisks feet, we Arent them, we Arent the protag, the characters dont love Us, they love Frisk, this caused players and fans to rebound and forcibly mold the narritive into something completely new and different, hence both countless iterations that often never involve frisk in the slightest, AND the massive volume of reader insert stories.

I was rewatching some “Top 10 facts about Undertale” and they metioned the “Entry Nº 17″ which follows:

It talks about darkness… But wait… where did we hear about darkness recently?

Oh, that’s right

So, there are plenty of allusions/paralles to Undertale in Deltarune and some easter eggs. I’ve made a list of the ones that I managed to find/catch. I’m pretty sure there are more of them.

1. There is an easter egg with naming your vessel and yourself. Like in Undertale using names of characters from the game will trigger a special dialogue (and like in Undertale naming your vessel or yourself “Gaster” will close the game).

2. When you look through the window in your room there is reference to Sans’ genocide fight.

3. A reference to Tsundere Cactus from Undertale, but in Deltarune it’s just an average cactus.

4. Recognizing yourself in the mirror.

5. Toriel hugs Kris almost the same way she hugs Frisk.

6. Alphys is still a weeaboo obsessed with Mew Mew ^^

7. Temmie still has the EG, but this time she is a partner not a proud parent.

8. If you try using your phone in the Dark World it will start making “Gaster noises”.

9. Ralsei’s cloak resembels the one that River Person wears (could River Person be a Darkner?)

10. Lancer’s bike might be a reference to Sans’ bike from the True Pacifist credit scene.

11. How Ralsei introduces us to the game mechanics is like a combination of both Flowey’s and Toriel’s tutorials. Telling what a soul is and how the fighting works is “Flowey’s part” and usage of Dummy and sparing being a preferable option is “Toriel’s part”.

12. Possibly a parallel to comforting a goatbro (Ralsei is a Goat/Boss Monster and a prince just like Asriel).

13. The shopkeepr hints a secret battle with Jevil in the early stage of the game.

15. The plush that Seam has on a shelf has is a reference to one of the Temmie Chang’s (she helped Toby create Undertale) characters, but I couldn’t find a picture of it.

16. Seam also gives us hints that Jevil knows Gaster. Here’s a video with a full dialogue: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7PukI_JTyVg

17.  The crown that K. Round wears might be reference to Super Crown, but the way it works is a ref to the big shroom power up. The sound that K. Round makes while growing up and shrinking is very similar to the sound from Mario games.

18. It is surely a reference to Sans’ room door (the weird glow), but it may also have something to do with Gaster’s grey door.

19. The sequence that Lancer and Susie perform is possibly a reference to Team R’s sequence from Pokemon series.

20. Possibly an Undertale Yellow easter egg? (the main charater is named Clover in UT:Y)

21. Even if you got rid of that tree you can still interact with it and get the dialogie box.

22. Lancer misses his attacks on Susie the same way Toriel does that when Frisk has low HP.

23. The theme that plays on floor ?????? inside the Card Castle uses the leitmotif of Gaster’s Theme. (can’t find a link with the theme)

24. A reference to Patrick from cartoon “Spongebob Squarepants”. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KNZSXnrbs_k

25. Another Pokemon’s reference.

26. You can interact with these pictures, when you interact with all 3 of them they’ll make a splat noise. I’m not sure if it does anything else.

27. Lancer has the same weird pics in his room, you can interact with them too, but they won’t make splat noise. But on the other hand there are CDs with recorded splat noises (the same that 3 previous pics make).

28. She talks about the cake that Susie ate ealier.

29. A missing pixel lmao

30. The cards and chess are references to the enemies from Dark World. There’s also a plushie of Shopkeer Seam under the board.

31. Kris looks similar to unused Frisk sprite.

32. The word “library” is still misspelled.

33. Temmie still wants to go to colleg. That’s the spirit!

34. Apparently Alphys prefers Mew Mew 2 now.

35. Heats Flamesman reference.

36. Just Toby at work.

37. He’s slacking off however.

38. We finally know after which monster Gaster Follower 3 was modeled.

39. Deltarune is definitely a different universe/timeline, cause Undyne doesn’t know Alphys and she still has both eyes. Also Bratty and Catty not only barely know each other, but they hate each other as well (in Undertale they are best friends).

40. On the left - dude who bought Muffet’s donut and regreted that later on, on the right - that weirdo from Napstablook’s snail farm.

41. Police station and Undyne’s house share the same doormat.

42. The big mouth monster that was spending time at Grillby’s, also a possible reference to nurse Joy from Pokemon series.

43. A reference to the absurdly tall sink from skelebros’ house. (also that blue bear might be inspired by 5.0.5 from Villainous)

44. Gerson is dead in Deltarune, also his last name is Boom. The hammer on his tombstone refers to his “nickname from war times” from Undertale - Hammer of Justice.

45. The tombstones of monster who were amalgamates in original Undertale, but since in Deltarune Alphys was never a Royal Scientist, all of this monsters just died. From left to right - Snowdrake’s Mother, the dog (Endogeny), Shyren sister (Lemon Bread).

46. Hand Receptionist from MTT Resort and politics bear from Snowdin.

47. That weird cube-dog-like monster from Sans’ crossword.

48. A reference to Purple Guy from game series FNAF (in Deltarune Burgerpants works at Pizzeria after all, hello?! it must be it xD).

49. A bunny shopkeepr from Snowdin, the guy who works in Core, the Ice Wolf (and he finally has pants as he wanted), Fuku Fire and Skateboard girl (but they already graduated), the lion monster who is a fan of Mettaton and gets a dress from him after his musical, and the dragon dude who couldn’t return to his family cause the elevator at MTT Resort was turned off.

50. Sans’ store is literally Grillby’s bar, but the name “Grillby” was removed and Sans added “ans” to the letter “S”. But he didn’t remove apostrophe. Well done Sans, well done.

51. A reference to Spider-Man, “I’m your friendly neighborhood Spider-Man”. Sans even calls Kris “tiger” which is how MJ calls Peter (I forgot to make a screenshot of it tho).

52. F#ck you Sans xD

53. “trousle of bones” - it obviously refers to Papyrus’ theme Bonetrousle.

54. Little bunny in the window is a child of that bunny monster who runs Snowdin Inn.

55. A monster from Snowdin who loves knocks lives there. And apparently Kris is not as good at knocking as Frisk is.

56. In the alley where you meet Alphys again there is a painting of Everyman (attack of Reaper Bird - one of the amalgamates). You can’t escape from your sins Alphys, even in another universe/timeline.

57. Asgore’s introduction dialogue in Deltarune is literally the same as in Undertale.

58. These flowers are an obvious allusion/parallel to the souls containers. The golden flower in the middle might be representing the empty container for Frisk’s determination soul. If you remember, in Undertale Alphys used a golden flower as a empty vessel to inject determination and that flower became Flowey later on.

59. RG01 and RG02 are still together, and for some reason they are still wearing helmets even tho the Royal Guard is most likely not a thing in Deltarune xD

60. If you wait long enough by the lake Onionsan will appear. He will ask what’s our name and will want to become friends. He also doesn’t remember his own name due to being alone for too long, so we have an option to gave him one.

61. He also might have a dark secret hehe

62. So there is most likely Mettaton, but we have no idea what’s up with Blooky. I’m hoping that in chapter 2 we will find out Mettaton’s canon ghost form and maybe his real name. Also I doubt that in Deltarune Mettaton has machine body, since Alphys never was a Royal Scientist in this universe/timeline.

63. Chara possession much? also a hint to the ending of Deltarune chapter 1

64. After Kris locks his soul in the cage you can still move it, but you can’t escape.

65. The glowing red eyes, Post Genocide Pacifist vibes are strong in this one.

(deltarune spoilers) Toby Fox: I will say that basically, what you’re seeing here is not the world of UNDERTALE. UNDERTALE’s world and ending are the same as however you left them. If everyone was happy in your ending, the people in the UNDERTALE world will still be happy. So, please don’t worry about those characters, and that world. It will remain untouched.

Important things:

As stated above, it isn’t a sequel or a game that ruins at all the happy ending you earned in your pacifist route. 

The game has some mild development problems (nothing to really worry about), but it wouldn’t just come out as quickly as UnderTale, as it’s a bigger project (UT was a passion project where he tried to prove himself if it was possible to make a game virtually alone, with some help, DR it’s a bigger project that he just can’t make alone as complicated as he wants it to be). 

So expect him to make a team, which it’s a challenge to direct but makes things easier (also it would be cool if fan content makers could join him, maybe there’s some good programmers and I know there’s a lot of good artists).

Basically because of this, the release date, price, how it will be released, if it will be on consoles, everything it’s pending. As he says, maybe it would take 999 years and when it gets released we are already on PlayStation14.

It will only have one ending no matter how you play it.

This time he will not Kickstart the game (he mentioned jokingly the Alarm Clock Stretch Goal from Hell, but it’s pretty clear that he doesn’t want to burn out because of the pressure, just as he said about pre-sales).

He was worried about making this game because maybe it will not live under the UnderTale hype and just would feel lacking (as he says, “wouldn’t make you feel the same as UnderTale again”) *Poor Toby*

Remember how Asriel became a sentient flower and then turned psychotic because he lacked a SOUL?

I think that holds the key to understanding the ending of Delta Rune.

Why did Flowey want to kill everyone? Because he became aware the world he lived in was a lie. It was a game, stuck in an endless temporal loop. It wasn’t real.

So he lost any attachment to it and thus became unable to feel sympathy for the monsters. In his own words, he was unable to feel. And so, their lives or deaths mattered little to him.

And how did Flowey become sentient in the first place? By being injected with a lot of DETERMINATION.

Now let’s apply that logic to Delta Rune.

We are given a VESSEL by (presumably) Gaster. That vessel is CHARA. Why? The green striped shirt. It’s their trademark.

(Asriel also wore that shirt, since it was given to them by their parents - Toriel and Asgore - when Chara still lived in the Underground, proving Kris is their sibling and indeed Chara)

Now, Chara’s SOUL disappeared after they died. Otherwise, Asriel would still have it inside him once he returned to the Underground. And it would be placed in a glass tube along with the other six SOULS.

That means CHARA IS NOW A HUMAN BEING WITHOUT A SOUL. Effectively, A VESSEL.

For some reason, they can become possessed by anyone and be forced to do things, even against their will.

Do you understand what that means?

We’re not playing Delta Rune with our avatar. We’re controlling Chara all the time.

And why isn’t Chara dead since they lack a SOUL? Can a human exist without a SOUL in the first place?

My answer is: even monsters can be brought back to life with enough DETERMINATION.

But without a SOUL, they cannot feel, thus becoming psychotic. Alive, but dead inside.

We can safely assume in Delta Rune, Chara is aware they’re in a game. They know none of that is real. And thus they’ll give the player a hard time, much like Flowey did in Undertale.

It’s obvious Gaster - or whomever speaks to the player in the beginning of Delta Rune - experimented on Chara somehow and brought them back to life by injecting determination in their dead body.

(Remember, Asriel carried Chara’s dead body in his arms back to the Underground)

Now you’re probably asking: when did this happen? When did Gaster experiment on Chara? Honestly, I’ve no idea. My bet is that Gaster acted outside the timeline.

Notice how he can contact you outside the confines of the game’s context. Therefore, in theory, he could experiment on Chara anytime he wants. Thus, somehow, he turned them into a Vessel.

(It is also possible Chara themselves injected DETERMINATION in their own body without anyone knowing, possibly before heading to the Surface with Asriel)

And last, but not least: if Chara is now alive without a SOUL, then to whom does that RED HEART belong?

Why, to YOU, of course. The player. It’s the culmination of YOUR being, not Chara’s! Hence why they toss it away at the end of Delta Rune’s Chapter 1. The red heart doesn’t belong to them. They don’t need it to survive!

To sum it up:

1) Chara died and was likely brought back to life by being injected with DETERMINATION.

2) Determination grants you sentience, but not feelings.

3) Any human or monster that is alive without a SOUL is called a VESSEL.

4) Flowey and Chara are both VESSELS.

5) The red SOUL belongs to the PLAYER. It’s the means through which they control Chara.

6) Gaster is aware Chara is a Vessel, and probably that Flowey is one as well.

What’s the distinction between Lightners and Darkners, and between Darkners and monsters? Why are Darkners living wherever they are instead of being up with everyone else? If Darkners were/are so important, why have we never heard of them before????

I’ve got this vague theory that maybe Darkners are some kind of reflection of Lightners/Monsters/Humans (Surface Dwellers?) too and it’s really got me thinking

I’m gonna swing this under the cut bc it’s spoilers

its all fake. its a ruse or a story or a simulation. it was the warm wishes of someone who slapped together elements they dont own. a literal fantasy.

the story is filled with obvious “secrets”, things that they player would’ve have to dig for, would set off maelstroms of speculation. but theyre not hidden, or even dressed up. theyre just There. unsubtle, and naked in the wind. for example, sans door as the fast travel system. this isnt the style or writing tobys known for, he doesnt just Tell us stuff like that, unless its a misdirection. hes never so Out with it like that.

the story itself is so fantastical, is so literally classically fantasy, that i was expecting gaster or chara to break right through the narrative and rip away all these cute little characters, this Chosen One plot, and these Tailored For Fans sweet moments from the second it started.

this is someonee attempting to Chose to be who they are, just as Gaster(?) said we cannot in the beginning. this is when asgore told you about if you stayed with the monsters, he and toriel and would take care of you and bake you pies and be laughing every and youd be So Happy. but it wasnt true.

and i think the characters know that.

It is really unsubtle as you say, nothing as UnderTale was where we had to read between the lines in a lot of things or connect the timelines. Not saying that something it’s superior, just that it’s different.

Even the ending where they appear again in the closet again and all the game related backgrounds and characters were revealed to be literal board games, in UnderTale probably they would just imply that saying things like “there’s some board games here” and then the player remembering the playtrough or in a new run they would realize that everything was based on board games. This is somethings different, like straight from Alice in Wonderland or something like that.

Also, probably the red heart in the game and the sweater would have been enough in UnderTale for people to connect Kris to Chara and theory about them, it wasn’t necessary to have a gruesome cutscene right from the first chapter.

I think Toby really wants to emulate someone making a fan game, thus making it from a different perspective (maybe as a nod to the multiple fan AU’s). 

Probably in the end it would turn out that it was some sort of fanfic by some character (like the Adventure Time AU that was really a fanfic by Ice King).

THOUGHTS UNDER THE CUT

APOLOGIES TO MY FRIENDS WHO DON’T CARE ABOUT VIDEO GAMES THIS GOT SUPER LONG SO I BROKE IT INTO CHUNKS

(also i haven’t really had time to develop Capital T Theories yet, so these are like… observations with implications. Proto-theories. Little baby thoughts)

OKAY SO, ABOUT THE BEDROOM:

We never knew about Gaster and he was pretty much hidden in UnderTale, but in Delta Rune right out the bat, when you name the creator GASTER the game closes. 

And then various songs in the game share leitmotiff with Gaster’s theme.

THOUGHTS UNDER THE CUT

APOLOGIES TO MY FRIENDS WHO DON’T CARE ABOUT VIDEO GAMES THIS GOT SUPER LONG SO I BROKE IT INTO CHUNKS

(also i haven’t really had time to develop Capital T Theories yet, so these are like… observations with implications. Proto-theories. Little baby thoughts)

OKAY SO, ABOUT THE BEDROOM: