I think your reading comprehension might me lacking. That, or your intentionally using all these strawman arguments. In case you don’t know what that is: you derail the discussion by pretending that your opponent said something different than they actually said, and then address their alleged arguments rather than their actual arguments. Your post is basically an epitome of that.
But in any case, here we go:
So what you’re saying is that content perpetuating the rape and abuse of children, or domestic violence, or that romanticises the real trauma of real people is acceptable provided it’s wrapped in the label of fandom.
Do you honestly want to tell me that you believe that a fiction that contains something also perpetuates it in a way that has consequences in real life? Is that really what you mean to say?
Does that mean that action thrillers perpetuate the notion that it’s okay to kill people?
Does that mean that the show “Hannibal” perpetuates the beauty of cannibalism?
Do ego shooters perpetuate the notion that it’s acceptable to go on a killing spree?
If your anwer to that is yes, then shouldn’t all fiction that isn’t “The Very Hungry Caterpillar” or something the like, be banned?
Shouldn’t the bible be banned, along with the Qu’ran and the Edda, the Ilias, Lolita, Romeo and Juliet, Faust, etc, etc.?
And if your answer should, by an chance, be no, does that not imply that that there is obviously a difference between fiction and reality, and that the overwhelming majority of readers and viewers are actually capable of discerning between both?
Fiction is fiction, and the fact that it does contain upsetting material is decidedly not a problem. That’s basically what fiction does. Even Aristoteles, back in Ancient Greece, was aware of the fact that an audience loves to go through pity and fear to reach catharsis. For as long as humanity has told stories, they have been full of violence, abuse, rape, incest, and so on. Every ancient Holy Book contains more than its fair share of it.
We love fiction because it allows us to experience things that we do not want to experience in real life. Plenty of men and women have rape fantasies. That doesn’t mean that they condone rape, or that they aren’t capable of discerning between consensual and non-consensual sex in real life.
Even pedophilic fantasies have their place, as they are basically one means among others to further disempower your identity figure - the readers’ substitute in fiction - and make those fantasies even more potent as a means of recreating a situation in which you are powerless. Infantilization or feminisation of one partner (Seme - Uke) as well as a/b/o fic and similar tropes often work the same way.
For some vctims of sexual abuse, readings or writing these kinds of fiction, or shipping ships with a similar dynamic, can be therapeutic. Some people just get off on it. It’s different for everyone. The point is that reading or enjoying this kind of content can be a very empowering experience. A fictional environment allows you to be in control in a way that is often liberating.
In any case, the enjoyment we get ouf of works of fiction - whether it is sexual gratification from porn, or the arenaline that comes from an action movie, or the excitement that comes from solving crime mysteries - is very personal, and it’s also very selfish. Saying that this shouldn’t be the case is not only hypoctritical - because I am very sure that you also enjoy fiction for personal reasons - it also fails to recognize the purpose of fiction. The fact that you so easily disregard what fiction means to its readers and creators makes me think that you are not actually all that empathetic toward other people, unless those somehow succeed in arousing your sympathies through suffering.
In any case, if your question is whether I approve of fandom content including all these things you listed above, then the answer is a resounding yes.
You are defending pedophilic content. You are defending misogyny and domestic abuse. You are defending rape.
Well, that’s just lazy. Don’t put words in my mouth. You know, this is what I meant with strawman arguments.
The only reason you’re trying to take a moral high ground is because you’re defending these things while they’re wrapped in the fandom bubble because suddenly, when it’s done as part of a fandom, it isn’t real and it has no consequences in the real world. That’s your argument then.
I am defending these things in a fictional context, which I explained above. And the reason that I am “trying to take a moral high ground” is because I am not an entitled, spoilt little brat who judges people based on what they like, or don’t like, in fiction. But as I explained - and if you believe you have the evidence to the contrary - fiction and reality are different things, and indeed, the mere fact that fictional content is written and read, or produced and watched, or drawn and looked at, does not mean that it is real.
I’ve gotta admit it’s very bold of you to take the Pro-Rape, Pro-Child Abuse argument here, it’s even more bold for you to point out that homosexuality is illegal in some countries and that’s why out and out Pedophilia isn’t a bad thing. And just as an additional point on that, Fuck You? Like, seriously? Fuck you. It’s even more hilarious that you’d go on to say I’m being problematic after you’ve just spent a long time explaining why Rape, Child Abuse, Misogyny and Domestic Violence is totally cool provided it is, essentially, in someone’s fandom kink-list.
Wow. You really have a talent to make up arguments. Come on, at least try to address the real issue here. It’s not that difficult.
My argument was that you suggested that a reason not to ship something should be its illegality. And I asked: which law should be considered binding for a multinational fandom? Becasue depending on where you live, different laws apply.
Well, you still have to come up with an answer to that. (But it’s cute how you desperately try to accuse me of condoning pedophilia and rape. It’s like you don’t have any arguments, so you try to attack me on a personal level …. oh, wait…)
So, as soon as you have finished accusing me of things I didn’t say, how about you deal with the things that I actually said?
But yes, I already explained why I am fine with all these things in fiction.
You have yet to demonstrate why condoning of things in fiction would be the same as condoning them in real life. Go on, prove that. I’ll be waiting, but I won’t get my hopes up.
I have no idea why you people think I don’t think the creators are also responsible, and that I think it’s JUST the fandom’s problem. DC as a whole are an amazing example of people who need to be stood up against because they’re the ones writing weird, rapey fanfiction and getting paid exorbitant amounts of money to do it. There are TONNES of genuinely awful writers out there who people stand up against. Just because this particular post is addressing the shit the fandom does doesn’t mean that the original creators aren’t ALSO pretty fucked up people.
Yes, go to redtube, and tell those guys there that they aren’t allowed to get off on their gang rape fantasies. That’s right, let’s all have a good laugh. You know, that’s a pretty good comparison. Redtube, and other porn channels, are out there, but you are not actually forced to visit them. However, if it is the mere knowledge that these sites exist that you cannot deal with, I suggest you go and bother them. Or is it just fandom conent that you just can’t deal with? It is extremely easy to harrass people in fandom. Many of them are young, inexperienced, and easily intimidated by bullies.
And what I said above is that if you want to ban this kind of content, go ahead, ban the bible (genocide, incest, slavery, murder, etc), ban Lolita (pedophilia), ban Pride and Prejudice (emotional abuse, classism), ban Gone with the Wind (abuse, rape, slavery), ban Dante’s Divine Comedy (gore, violence, torture). Don’t forget George R. R. Martin on your way (for all kinds of stuff), and of course Tolkien (for classism, misogyny, and advertisment of smoking).
Or you know, maybe just publish your demand to do so! Let me know when you do it, I’d like to take a back seat and enjoy the show when you try that.
But no, you are here and complaining about people shipping - what was it - Joker/Harley Quinn? Whoever these guys are.
And top off this shit-storm of a ridiculous argument you’ve put together: If you were paying attention what I was saying was that the feelings of victims of the sort of trauma that these fanartists and fanfiction writers are romanticising take massive, massive precedent, because it is infinitely more important to help people who have suffered from real abuse than it is to make some fanboy/girl feel comfortable about their problematic fetishes.
No, this isn’t what you said. You might want to read your post again. However, I’ll concede that it is what you meant, so let’s address it.
There are two great misconceptions in this. First, that a person’s personal feelings should take precendence over another person’s human rights. That’s a very bad idea. You probably don’t think so because you believe that this should only apply in cases where you find it acceptable.
You have the opinion that a survivor’s hurt feelings should be considered more important than another person’s freedom of expression in fandom. No matter that this survivor is in no way forced to consume the fictional content the other person creates - no, the mere fact that this content exists is apparently unacceptable for this nameless surivor (or just for you?)
You know, there’s this thing called a cagegorical imperative, which is a very good moral guideline, as it works based on rationality and critical thinking. It basically says, if you do something - anything - consider what would happen if the idea behind your actions would be declared common law.
When I apply this to your statement, that means that I:
- would get to issue a ban on every movie where someone steals a car, because my car was stolen once and I’m still afraid every day that it might happen again,
- would get to ban all movies dealing with war becasue my grandfather died in one and it triggers me to think of it
- get to ban all movies with dead grandfathers, for that matter, because growing up, I had none, and I’m still suffeing deeply from the loss of a granddad
Does that seem ridiculous to you? Good. Because it is.
But you know, what’s even worse is that the same kind of argument - my hurt feelings trump your personal freedom - is often employed by bigots and conservatives to deny other people basic human rights - just think of homosexuality. Some people are so offended by the concept, and feel violated on a personal level that even though it is none of their business, they feel the need to deny people their basic human rights.
And if you think that “this is totally different, oh my God, how can you say stuff like that, that’s ridiculous” - then by all means, tell me why it is different.
Maybe because their reaction is not rational? Well, personal feelings rarely are, and personal exerience is no justification to restrict other people’s rights.
The second great misconception is that it would actually help survivors to be spared the knowledge that such content is out there. But that’s another matter, and I won’t discuss it here.
And now my favourite part of your argument: That I, and people who agree with me, are just entitled. You’re sitting here saying artists and creatives should be allowed to step on whoever they want, they should be allowed to romanticise horrible, horrible crimes without being judged for it, and anyone who doesn’t like it should just look the other way, and you’re saying that I’M entitled for taking issue with it.
Exactly. Only what you phrase as “looking the other way” is actually a demand to leave people alone. Unless someone is stepping up to you holding an offensive drawing under your nose, and forces you to look at it, your complaint is based on nothing but entitlement and whiny, bratty, “the world needs to cater to my wishes” wailing. I bet this kind of “live and let live” works just fine in other instances in your life, and it’s probably just fandom where you feel reassured enough to bother people without your ridiculous demands.
Your blanket statement that does everything to protect people for their frankly insignificant fantasies that they could either alter slightly or move on from entirely. but nothing to help anyone who actually needs helping, or prevent the bad shit that these people are turned on by from happening in the real world and ruining someone’s life, who CAN’T escape the reality of what you people seem to think is oh-so-lovely. You are the epitome of entitlement. You cannot make concessions for other people in any way, shape or form, even when their need for something to be gone is greater than your need for it to stay. Anyone who disagrees with you is a bad person, as you sit there and defend child pornography, domestic violence and outright rape.
This is mostly a repetition of what you said before, so I don’t think I need to address this any further.
I just really wanna hammer it home because maybe you didn’t get it: I’m not talking about fanfiction with weird self-insert OC’s, or tonnes of kinks that I don’t understand, or even fanfiction where strong female characters are turned into airheaded (but consenting) sex-props (or fanart of any of these). That stuff is gross but it’s not at the level where you NEED to get rid of it because… yeah it’s fucking gross but it doesn’t profoundly hurt anyone, nor does it break the law. The content that features children paired with adults, out and out domestic violence, rape, things that are, let me just reassure you, absolutely fucking illegal and completely morally sick. Anything other than that, sure, it’s shitty, If it really bugs you MAYBE say something, but otherwise, yeah, avoid it. But there are things that are absolutely sick, in the eyes of anyone with a conscience and in the eyes of any country on the planet. THAT is the shit we need to get rid of. THAT is the shit we need out of the fandom. THAT is the shit that we shouldn’t “Just avoid”. There is shit so messed up we need to get rid of it entirely and the feelings of some dumbfuck artist who wants to draw Lolicon just aren’t enough to suddenly make it okay. That is what I’m saying we need to call out.
Where does the idea come from that fiction should only contain things that are legal? What does the legality of tings in real life have to do with their depiction in fiction??
Why do you think that sexual violence and abuse (and, yes, that includes pedophilia) should be off limits, but gun violence and gore and murder are just fine to write about??
The lines you are trying to draw here make no sense. Fiction does not work in moral absolutes, and there is no reason why it should. You’re not thinking logically. Your whole post is a mess of preconceived notions about the harmfulness of fiction and the way it presumably influences reality (but apparently only in some elected instances), and a misunderstanding of what are, and what aren’t basic human rights.
You know, I can’t shake the feeling that you never actually thought this through. I can’t shake the feeling that you are only repeating arguments that you heard elsewhere, that you are either lacking the intellectual integrity, or the skill necessary to plead a convincing case.
I also think you need to think long and hard about what freedom of expression means. Most people only think of freedom of expression as their own right. But it’s always the other person’s right as well, and you don’t get to curtail it based on your inability to realize that fiction is fiction, and reading it is a matter of free choice.
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