#warrioreowynofrohan

I LOVE the two conversations with Lúthien and Turgon at the start of part 30 of TFS. It’s clear what Maedhros is *trying* to do - make things better for two people he loves before he leaves, to assuage the guilt of leaving - but what makes it great is that Lúthien and Turgon are both trying to tell him the same thing, and he is not listening. It is not HIMSELF that is a danger, it is the Oath, and he is unable or unwilling to recognize that he can be free of it, which is why he doesn’t get what he’s looking for from either of them.

The Lúthien one really stands out because Maglor doesn’t *seem* particularly tormented by the Oath; Maedhros seems to be projecting his own preoccupations upon Maglor. To the extent that Maglor still seems concerned about the Oath, it’s mostly on Maedhros’ own behalf.

It’s just…the way he’s willing to walk straight into Sauron’s grasp rather than grapple with the realizations that are in front of him!

It’s fantastic characterization.

Thank you so much! Part 30 had a very clear structure in my mind: Maedhros talks to Lúthien about Maglor, he talks to Turgon about Fingon, he talks to Fingon, he talks to Maglor – and he does, I think, feel in some way as though he’s setting his affairs in order before he leaves. (He does not have any expectation at this stage of ever seeing Fingon or Maglor again, also.)

There was a post going around a while ago about how some stories are tragedies because “it didn’t HAVE to end this way” and some stories are tragedies because “it was always GOING to end this way”. What about, I asked myself the other day, walking home from work in the rain, a tragedy that isn’t inevitable – but its protagonist thinks it is? Because I really did want part 30 to feel like a tragedy in one act; and Maedhros, who both canonically and in tfs is almost defined by this utter inability to recognise the shape of the narrative he is caught in, was naturally the central figure of it. I do think this is one of the saddest instalments of the entire fic. It was very hard, emotionally, to write.

So, yes, Maedhros doesn’t listen. He’s too convinced that There Is Only One Way The Story Goes, and convinced also that he is the main character of it: “You do rather think everything is about you, don’t you?” says Turgon, and Maedhros’ immediate internal response, which he decides not to say aloud, is Well it is. And he’s been proven right about Sauron lurking in Dorthonion, and proven right that going public with his relationship with Fingon after centuries of secrecy is a bad idea, which only reinforces his belief that he is right about literally everything. This is… not true, to say the least.

As for the Oath: Maedhros’ current thoughts on it are, in a large part, driven by his conversation with Maglor in part 28, just before the battle.

“When it is won,” he says again, “we might try, perhaps, to rid ourselves of our shackles for good.”

Maedhros stills. “What do you mean by that?”

“You know what I mean, Nelyo,” Maglor says quietly. “The Oath. I do not know if we can free ourselves of it, but I know we must try.”

Maedhros gives him a long, thoughtful look. “Is that what you want?” he asks.

“More than anything,” says Maglor. “Oh, Nelyo, I am tired of being bound. Aren’t you?” He thinks of Menegroth and struggling with all his will against the Oath’s compulsion; and he thinks of Lúthien, who told him he need not regret forever.

Maedhros’ hand goes to the stump of his right wrist. He says nothing.

“I am beginning to believe it possible, at least,” says Maglor.

“All right,” Maedhros murmurs. He sounds resigned more than anything else, although in his eyes is the distant, calculating look Maglor usually associates with his brother the strategist, poring over war-maps and diplomatic correspondence.

Maglor: I want to be free of the Oath

Maedhros: clearly what he is saying is that we need to go after the other two Silmarils and although I do not yet know how to do that or particularly want to do it my precious baby brother must have anything his heart desires

(Also, incidentally, the precise thought that went through Maedhros' head when Maglor asked him if he was tired of being bound was, verbatim, Káno, I am always bound.)

So although Maglor isn't tormented by the Oath exactly, he has been spending a lot of time this arc quietly thinking about it (in fact, he's been thinking about it pretty much the entire fic). And, as Lúthien says, there is a lot that Maglor understands and Maedhros doesn't: namely, that they can be free of the Oath, and that there's a distinction between that and fulfilling it. More on this in the next arc, probably. But Maedhros has fully failed to grasp any of this, even though Lúthien basically spells it out for him when she asks him if Thingol's Silmaril is really what he wants. So instead he goes off and makes what one might reasonably call a Bad Decision.

I wanted to ask, are you splitting days by having a new day start at midnight, or at dawn (or something else)? That’s what I find trickiest when I’ve tried to work out the chronology of the books, esp when characters are travelling at night.

Thank you! I LOVE seeing everyone read it too!!

Oh my god, yes it is EXTREMELY tricky. At first I tried to stick to the rule of "new day starts around dawn", because in Appendix B in the timeline, events happening at night usually get "assigned" to the earlier day of the two. Also jirt often ends the day with "and so the night passed" or similar phrases.

But then I turned out it wouldn't always be the case, and my rule changed to "new day starts at dawn or after they go to sleep, but most importantly, when there is a reasonable moment to take a break and create a bit of mental space between the two days for the readers". That's what I did today with Pippin and Merry's fragment - they escape from the Orcs on 29th just before morning, but as you go backwards in the text, there is not really a good moment to start a new day until after Pippin talks to Merry and gets kicked. Everything after that would be cutting a single scene in half, and I didn't want to do that.

So honestly, it totally depended on the day! Most times, jirt himself will end a given day in a way that is clear, and there is no choice but to follow it. There is one period of time when he seemed to almost get lost in one of the timelines (one of four, at that point), but after some thinking and reading Karen Wynn Fonstad's Atlas of Middle-earth, even that was possible to solve (the dawnless day and the few days that follow, my behated akjshkjdhfkjhdf).

The room is not a room. It is a space, colourless, endless, floating. An incarnate could not stand such a featureless blank—sensory deprivation does terrible things to minds made for the material. One of the Resonant would simply grow bored. In fact, it already has.

Hi, I’m @lie-where-i-land​ (James, 20s, gay trans man).  I’ve been thinking a lot recently about transphobia and trans allies in fandom spaces, and how people may pay us trans folks lip service but at the end of the day do little to support us. Yesterday was the final straw to break my back, shall we say. 

A while ago, it came to the attention of multiple trans tolkien bloggers that one semi-prominent user, @venwe, was a terf.  Most of us blocked and moved on.  It appears that this user’s original blog, @venwe, was terminated by staff, as they reappeared under a different url (@suyao-supremacy) with a promotional post asking other big name silm bloggers to boost and help them regain their mutuals. I sent the following anon ask to @cycas​, who had boosted the original promotional post.

Image Description: An anonymous tumblr ask to user Cycas that reads “Venwe (now suyao-supremacy) has been following and interacting with terfs for years. Their original blog was terminated but when it was around it was very easy to find receipts. The following list contained multiple terfs blogs and they posted some transphobic stuff in an argument a while back.  Them trying to minimize it or brush it under the rug like “I don’t Hate trans people, I just think there’s an undeniable and dangerous difference between cis and trans women aha” is not cute.  I have no receipts to send you because I don’t push callouts or cache dirt on people, but I am trans, and more than one trans friend of mine in this fandom has expressed concern over this user and their transphobic behavior, which seems to lie dormant for a while before cropping back up again (which is likely intentional as it allows them to fly under the radar).” (end image description)

@cycas​ responded below to me like this:

Image description: A text response by Cycas to the anon ask, which reads “Ok, look I’m going to answer this one publicly and, I hope, this will be an end to it even if the anons block me.  Tolkien fandom is an international, multilingual, and multicultural space. Sometimes there are going to be people with different ideas, sometimes ideas that are odd, difficult, jarring, or unpleasant. You can’t assume people will be coming to stuff with the same background as you.  I do not, on the whole, curate my tumblr feed to only people with whom I agree. That would take it down to a very small group and I don’t know how I would even begin to do that. I definitely don’t want to curate my tumblr feed according to the opinions of people who send me anon messages about who I should block. Venwe is not a celebrity with a huge influential following, and as such I don’t think should be the subject of campaigning of this kind.  Block her if you don’t like her - I’d block anyone who upsets you, whether or not you actually interact with them or just saw them in passing - but please don’t tell me who I should interact with. I am old enough that I can remember when being able to chat with a Russian woman about things we agree or disagree about was impossible. I can remember the first Russian fans coming to the UK to talk about how they had discovered Tolkien, and what an absolutely amazing moment that was, way back in the early 90s, that we were all able to share these books. And now the peace we all hoped for so desperately is over and I don’t know where to begin about that.  I’m betting you are young enough that you don’t know what you are asking me when you say ‘stop talking to a Russian woman because I think that they say the wrong things.’ I’m not dismissing your concerns (of the Ukraine war) and nor so far as I can see is Venwe). And I’m sorry to hurt your feelings, but I’m not going to do what you say on this one.” (end image description)

@cycas​ tagged the post saying any further conversation needed to be done off anon.  I was incredibly hesitant about this because I feared onlookers would put transphobic stuff in my inbox, but the response above was such a bad faith interpretation of what I’d actually written that I felt the need to clear the air. So, I reblogged the post with my addition below:

Image Description: A text reblog from lie-where-i-land, which reads “To be very clear, I’m not dressing some weird Russophobia up in some pro-trans trappings. I am a trans man. As I said before, I have had venwe blocked for over a year now for their overt following of radfems (inside and outside the Tolkien fandom) and some unsavory transphobic debate on their blog. I do not stalk blogs that I have blocked because I find that sort of internet behavior troublesome, unethical, and harmful to my mental health. Any comments that they have made regarding the Russian invasion of Ukraine, I have not heard. Firstly, I have them blocked, and secondly, staff torpedoed their blog so I couldn’t find the comments even if I wanted to.

I am wondering if you have received messages from more than just me? Because I did not mention venwes nationality in this message or the follow up that I sent. I can see why you thought I might be motivated by venwe being Russian, but I couldn’t help but feel that you read something into this that I didn’t say, put words in my mouth, and spun this as me trying to isolate and alienate random Russians online. It makes you seem like the charitable and good hearted fandom participant, and me like some sort of miserly buzzkill.

I think we both know that this is not a case of “don’t talk to this Russian lady bc Russian cooties.” I think you’re right in saying that part of what makes the Tolkien fandom great is the depth and international breadth of its roots. My mutuals and I are from every corner of the globe, and I think that makes our friendship better not worse. And no, i don’t agree with them on everything (concerning Tolkien or offline matters). I find that maintaining a friendship with someone from a wildly different background mostly comes down to open mindedness, willingness to listen, taking things with good faith, and asking clarifying questions. As such, when my international friends have challenged my views or beliefs, we’ve managed to remain friends.

Posting transphobic rhetoric, following radfems, and being part of a circle of transphobes that operate within the tolkien fandom is not “having a difference of opinion.” I don’t need someone to have the same background as me, or to be knowledgeable in the same way I am knowledgeable. My grandmother is old, transphobic in the way much of her generation is, and her opinions like “[she] doesn’t care who uses the ladies’ room as long as no one pisses on the floor” are not PC. Her fumbling attempts at progress are done in better faith than the people on here that try to draw borders to distinguish perpetual man and perpetual woman, perpetual patriarch and perpetual victim, as if trans people are (depending on what is rhetorically suitable) dangerous invaders in need of purging or misguided mental degenerates in need of salvation.

I don’t comb through the blog of everyone that interacts with me on the off chance they might be “problematique.” I dont expect that level of effort from anyone. At best, I give new followers a cursory glance to their bio and top three posts. However, I think it is pretty reasonable that I don’t follow terfs or reblog from radfems in the fandom because “it’s not a post about radfeminism.” This is a pretty standard rule of thumb followed by every trans person I know. Why? You’re right, venwe is not a big platform influencer. But I am a trans man. I post something, an ally reblogs it, their follower is a somewhat stealthy terf and reblogs it, their followers are terfs and now I have terfs in my inbox. The silm fandom is small enough as it is. Terfs find blogs like mine in large part because “allies” overlook radfem rhetoric as a difference of opinion.

This fandom is either friendly to trans people or it’s friendly to terfs. If it’s friendly to both, then don’t be surprised if your circle ends up just being terfs, because trans people won’t stick around for long like this. No, i don’t need to follow you, or boost your content. Please then, do trans people the courtesy of not reblogging our content if you’re hiding terfs in your coattails.” (end image description)

@cycas​ did not reblog my addition, either to not draw more attention to their words or to avoid drawing attention specifically to my rebuttal.  Instead Cycas replied in the comments, which you can see below:

Image Description: A reply in the notes of the original post, by cycas to lie-where-i-land, which reads “I assume the account was removed because it had a Russian IP and was posting about Ukraine.  I very much sympathize with your position, but to me it seems that being a progressive Russian lesbian wondering whether to risk imprisonment and worse at a demo isn’t easy either.  I shared the post because I was asked to do so, and I don’t really think that counts as putting anyone at risk, except possibly for venwe.” (end image description)

So there was no acknowledgement from cycas that they had been and continued to be (as visible from their following lists - though venwe/suyao-supremacy’s has now been hastily privated) mutuals with a terf.  They continue to run with the false claim that this is beef because of the russian invasion.  And they double down on how the only one at risk here is venwe, not any of the trans tolkien fans that they are now introducing to a terf’s blog through a promotional post. I screenshotted the reply and attached it to a second reblog which is below:

Image Description: A text reblog by lie-where-i-land that reads “Cycas, again, I have no knowledge of venwe’s stance on the current invasion of Ukraine. I find it somewhat unlikely that her blog was terminated for having a Russian IP when there are other Russian silm bloggers currently living in Russia that are currently active. On the other hand, lots of people have know about her being a radfem for a year now, and while I dislike speculation, that was my initial suspicion for the termination of her blog. I sympathize with anyone who is caught between wanting to demonstrate against imperialism and the knowledge that they may be in grave danger if they do so. My initial message, and my reply above, had nothing to do with venwes nationality. I am sort of frustrated at this implicit “I see how trans ppl are a target, but consider that being a Russian lesbian is dangerous too… so.” It’s possible to be marginalized and still do harm to other marginalized people.

When I talk about harm: I’m not saying you knowingly promoted a radfem because you’re in cahoots or something. But you didn’t ask for proof, you didn’t ask if any of your other followers had seen venwe’s radfem rhetoric, you immediately assumed the worst faith position possible. boosting the new traction post from a terminated radfem helps that radfem gain back their follower base. It’s handing someone the keys to your metaphorical house. The more people that give radfems the fandom house keys, the more visible and vulnerable trans tolkien bloggers are. I don’t Want to post about my life or my trans tolkien content for my followers to reblog when I know there are cryptoterfs that are mutuals with some of you, terfs who will be reading about my personal life, climbing into my inbox, making me and my friends feel unsafe and unwelcome. Now, terfs are perfectly capable of combing trans tags for my blog. But being mutuals with them hands them a list of queer and trans bloggers, wrapped with a pretty bow.Either this fandom is safe for trans people or it’s safe for terfs.” (end image description)

I am at this point past my image limit, but I wanted to share some words from @warrioreowynofrohan​, who commented in support of cycas on the initial post. The screenshot and my reply are available here for proof. 

Warrioreowynofrohan: thumbs up emoji. the new attitude of you should never communicate with or even read anything said by anyone who disagrees with you on anything of substance is deeply destructive and harmful. If people want to curate their own social media experience selectively, that’s their own choice; but they have no right to demand/pressure that everyone else do the same.

my response from the comments: this was specifically about people being friends with terfs. I’m friends with lots of people that I disagree with on one thing or another. Taking a look at what the radfems are saying so you can stay abreast of the situation is really not the same as boosting a radfems promo post. Being friends with radfems and letting them into fandom bc their meta is good puts trans ppl at risk. Yall can choose your terf friendships over trans friendships if you like tho.

I’m a queer trans man. I am no stranger to the shadowy campaigns against bloggers for being the wrong flavor of queer or doing fandom in a way someone else doesn’t like. I think it is incredibly disrespectful to the queer bloggers that got harassed and are still getting harassed to the point of leaving this site to draw deliberate comparisons here in defense of a terf. People like terfs, exclusionists, and X Critical folks regularly deride and attack bloggers like me. Saying that you won’t allow bigots in your circle is a good thing actually.

Curating your social media to your “personal preference” is something like me choosing not to follow people that vehemently hate the noldor or who call elwing a bad mom.

Unfollowing and blocking bigots is not a matter of “personal preference,” it’s a matter of keeping your marginalized friends safe.

Final Thoughts: 

I don’t hold any anger or suspicion toward people that have followed venwe/suyao-supremacy in the past.  I know lots of people have had interesting, friendly, and rather innocent conversations with them (at one point, they were rather prolific on here).  It’s hard to tell if someone is a terf masquerading as a friendly blog.  And I don’t think the solution is to fall into paranoia, scrutinizing every acquaintance for rotten subtext! I just wish more people would appraise themselves of the base tenets of radfem rhetoric so that they can identify it when it crops up, and either re-educate or block the user it’s coming from.  

Oh!!! Welcome!!! Yes, yes let me tell you about the Ofermod essay!!! Sorry it took me so long to respond! I didn't even realize I had a message until I clicked the tab open by accident. Also I loved your post so much, I want to print it out and eat it or paste it on my wall or both. So in case you haven't read it/for those reading THIS post who haven't read it: the Ofermod essay is typically included in "The Tolkien Reader", which is a bunch of stories and essays and commentaries that JRRT wrote, some of which accompany the legendarium, some of which don't. The Ofermod essay is an expansion on JRRT's short play "The Homecoming of Beorhtnoth (be-york-noth), Berohthelm's Son" which in turn was inspired by a fragment of Old English poetry commonly called "The Battle of Maldon" and depicts a battle between the people who would become the English and what were essentially Vikings. "The Battle of Maldon" is about an Old English king/earl/noble of some sort, Beorhtnoth, in the perfect position to have the Vikings forced into a bottle neck where it would be very easy to kill them. The Vikings, not liking the idea of being killed, sent a message to Beorhthnoth being like "hey dude, just killing us in a bottleneck is not Heroic. how about you let us get super close and then we can brawl like Real Men, From The Legends of Old" and despite everyone around him saying that was a bad idea, Beorhthnoth is like "oh hell yeah, I love the old hero stories! Let's totally do that!" And long story short the Vikings obliterate the English and it's all Beohthnoth's fault.

The play that Tolkien wrote features two servants who are sent to the bloodied and death-ruled battlefield to find the body of the king and bring it back to the Ely Cathedral for burial. The play is seven pages long, but the general gist is that one is super hyped to be here for the opportunity to even be in the wings of such a grand and heroic battle and the other is...fucking exhausted, because he knows war is nothing but misery and pain and death and that there's nothing heroic about a king who's pride and desire to match up with the legends of old only results in more misery and more pain and more death. Then comes the Ofermod essay! In Old English, the original line describing Beorhtnoth's folly appears "ða se eorl ongan for his ofermode alyfan landes to fela laƿere ðeode" which is translated to "then the earl in his overmastering pride actually yielded ground to the enemy, as he should not have done". As you can see from the English translation, the incredulousness of "actually" and the condemnation of the words "as he should not have done" indicate quite clearly that, even in the era of the writing of the text, Beorhthnoth displayed a completely atrocious amount of overzealous pride and that resulted in the death of everyone in his household, all of his soldiers, and likely a good number of his common people too.

In the essay, Tolkien expands a bit on the myth of the heroic poem and the "northern heroic spirit" and touches on how it influences perceptions of people, and how they become willing to buy into the myth because they want to believe in it. In the case of Beorhthnoth, it's because of "a character, we may surmise, not only formed by nature, but moulded also by 'aristocratic tradition', enshrined in tales and verse of poets". This idea that you must give more than what you are able to give and die upon the idea of heroism because it's part of the messaging you've internalized. Basically, being heroic is so romanticized, that logic flies out the window. Tolkien also states: "Yet this element of pride, in the form of the desire for honor and glory, in life and after death, tends to grow, to become a chief motive, driving man beyond the bleak heroic necessity to excess." Then Tolkien totally rips into him with such phrases like: "he was responsible for all the men under him, not to throw away their lives except (my emphasis) with one object, the defense of the realm" and "It was wholly unfitting that he should treat a desperate battle with this sol real object as a sporting match" and "Why did Beorhthnoth do this? Owing to a defect of character, no doubt" Which is....so incredibly harsh. Totally true! I agree 100%! But my god JRRT the "Owing to a defect of character, no doubt" absolutely kills me. Anyways, I belive it's clear how heartily Tolkien disapproves of this irresponsible "excess" as he calls it.

So if you'll allow me to throw my hat into the ring on LOTR analysis, I also want to support your side in agreeing that the idea of "self appointed hero" vs "doing what you can" is an important detail to bring up! I think in Middle Earth, which is so haunted by the past, but specifically haunted by songs of the past and old heroic endeavors of those of Túrin Turambar, Lúthien and Beren, Tuor, Eärendil, etc., then it only follows that the races of that world are constantly inundated with what has come before, of when times were greater and acts of heroism grander and this likely shapes the heroic aspirations many of the incredibly compelling characters in Middle Earth. The myth of heroics builds on itself, becomes more powerful as the stories grow and are handed down (which, I believe, may be influenced by the Power of the Word in Arda, but we don't have time for that right now) and ends up affecting the tragic heroes all across the timeline. If we use Boromir as an example, most of us already know and accept that there was lots of pressure on him to be of service to Gondor and to help his city, but I believe this was compounded by the influence of the heroes who came before. He was constantly being pushed and prodded by Denethor to be stronger, greater, more. Gondor itself is also defined by What It Was and the Good Old Days, which definitely doesn't help. And I believe it's basically impossible for a young man to not internalize some of those messages. And now, on the quest, he's in the company with elves and dwarves, doing things that you hear of in legends like fighting Balrogs. He's literally with Aragorn! A prophesied king! Is it any wonder he felt the weight of legend like a noose around his throat? Is it any wonder why he wouldn't have tried to do what songs had told him to do, and make a place for himself in the annals of heroic legend? Which is, of course, an ambition and a weakness the Ring leveraged.

Many people can identify loud and proud transphobia and (trans exclusionary) radical feminism. Some that come to mind are the discriminatory bathroom and sports bans, restricting access to gender affirming healthcare, asking what's in someone's pants, or making attack helicopter or "man in a dress" jokes.

The foundational principles of radical feminism slip in easier, because radfems are adept at making them palatable and targeting the insecurities, fears, and traumas of vulnerable listeners. At its core, radical feminism relies on the presupposition that there is an inherent biological difference between sexes, and that there is an unbreachable difference in socialization between genders. You may hear people relate testosterone to violence, call the penis a violent or dominating organ, call sex work or kink inherently degrading (more degrading than, say, breaking your back in a grocery store), pose intimate partner violence or child abuse in a rigid framework with only male perpetrators and only female victims, or talk about experiences universal to all members of one gender.

Radical feminism fails to consider intersectionality and how additional demographic factors impact privilege and ones lived experiences. A Black or indigenous man has little to no systemic power over my white mother. A trans woman receives abuse, not rewards, from a patriarchal social system. A trans man does not gain patriarchal rewards when he must go stealth for safety (and even then, is outed for medical care). Intersex people do not fit tidily into binary sex models and often receive medical and social abuse no matter their asab - I will leave this topic open for anyone more qualified than me, as I am perisex. Gender binary models are not even standard globally, and have historically been enforced through western imperialism and christian religious evangelism. Therefore at its core, radical feminism does not break free from but rather embraces entrenched racist, sexist, transphobic and ableist pathways of oppression. Not only do radfems disguise cruelty with their emotional appeals and false reasonability, their science is just plain wrong.

A little reading for you all:

Hot Allostatic Load

and

I Am A Trans Woman. I Am In The Closet. I Am Not Coming Out.

These are emotionally difficult reading, especially for queer and trans folk. The first details a trans woman's experiences in being abused by "progressive" people who pay the right lip service but still use bioessentialist radfem principles to justify doxxing, harassment campaigns, and social exclusion. The second details a trans woman's negative experiences with people who have internalized bioessentialism and gender essentialism, in particular the inherent violence of masculinity, and used these ideologies to demean and harass her.

Anyone who is interested in being a better ally to the trans community (this goes out to other trans folks, people in the wider queer community, and any of my cishet friends) might find this illuminating.

I would seriously *love* fanfic about complicated interactions between Faramir and elves. The contrast between his admiration plus his feelings that it’s perilous to even interact with them, against these First Age elves like Galadriel and Celeborn and Elrond who are now Aragorn’s extended family and hanging around Minas Tirith…it’s a fascinating concept to explore.