#twow spec

I don't see why he wouldn't make a capable lord south of the Wall but still well within the North, especially with Alys by his side. I do love a power couple, and I think that's precisely what they are being set up to become. "Seamlessly" might be too strong a word. There are bound to be some bumps in the road early on with so much accumulated bad blood over the centuries. The difference is will cooler heads prevail to prevent and contain any violent outbreaks. Even as mortal enemies, the North is the best place to make peace with the Free Folk work. From a southron perspective, northerners are already a bunch of tree-worshipping country bumpkins. In the north North, you get even more hillbilly with the mountain clans, who are ruled by little more than petty lords that constantly quarrel amongst themselves. The Magnar is actually more closely aligned with most northern nobles than with those mountain clan chiefs or your typical wildling warlord. And the Thenns are written to be a natural and needed bridge between the Free Folk and the kneelers.

Thenn society is structured very similarly to life south of the Wall. The kneelers consider them more "sophisticated" because they have a system of lords and laws, with the Magnar as god-king. Because they abide by a hierarchy, they have the discipline to organize themselves more effectively than most other Free Folk. They are used to having permanent settlements, which allows for the mining of copper and tin, and subsequently the development of metallurgy to make bronze armor and weapons. They can decently outfit their own army instead of relying on stealing old random crap from fallen enemies. And the habit of not stealing things tends to go over well south of the Wall.

On the flip side, they primarily speak the Old Tongue, and "for thousands of years they've had more truck with the giants than with other men. It made them different." So among the Free Folk, Thenns are highly regarded as salt-of-the-earth First Men, probably even a little revered for their exceptionally close relationship with giants. They have established credibility with many Free Folk, so their influence can go a long way in convincing the latter that it's in their best interest to keep the king's peace as they resettle into their new way of life -- and that they can do so without giving up all of their cultural identity. The establishment of House Thenn says their people and history will continue on, even if they will never return to their valley of origin. In exchange, the slate will be wiped clean of any past raiding and thieving, and only future crimes will be subject to lawful consequences. Compromise on both sides will be key to successful integration. As for Sigorn himself, he already demonstrates that he can be both proud and flexible when it comes to his people's welfare. His father, Styr, made war on the Wall, died beneath it, and failed to bring his people through with brute force. Sigorn is open to doing things differently. It is significant that Sigorn is the first of the wildling leaders to bend the knee to Stannis, to agree to fight with the Night's Watch and hold the Wall against the Others, and to support Stannis's claim, in exchange for mass pardons, shelter, food, and eventual resettlement. Also, as a show of good faith, Sigorn will be recognized as a lord and granted a castle. And my god, the wedding of Alys and Sigorn is easily among the top 10 best scenes of the series. What a ray of hope it is after all the dirty dealing, bigotry, zealotry, and mutiny that's already happened, plus the horror of what's to come. Alys's father, Lord Rickard, met a bad end, too. He was executed by Robb for killing Lannister hostages. Both Alys and Sigorn could choose to hold on to their anger and make an enemy of any crow, kneeler, or Stark, respectively. That anger is there as we initially see them hurl it at Jon; however, they decide to let those grievances be buried with the dead as they turn toward making a better possible future instead. That's the strength, wisdom, and mercy you want in the people who will rebuild the world. Maybe make it a bit more just than before.

Speaking of Alys, I would say she probably will deserve a lot of credit for establishing strong, capable leadership in House Thenn. Sigorn barely speaks the Common Tongue but can take one look at Alys and know he's more than met his match. She is fierce and brave as fuck. At fifteen, she fled Karhold and made for the Wall alone with only a horse, meager sustenance, and the clothes on her back rather than submit to marrying a usurping cousin. The fact that Sigorn is so smitten with her already bodes well that he will look to her as a co-ruler and trust her counsel in areas he is lacking. When it comes to gender, the Free Folk tend to be a lot more egalitarian than the rest of Westeros.

And considering EVERYTHING going on with Sansa’s arc right now -- people flocking from all over for the tourney! Sweetrobin being slowly poisoned! Shadrich very probably knowing who she really is! -- I can dream up more than a couple ways some of their paths might cross. Nearby characters might be drawn from the Riverlands to the Vale for the tourney... Sansa might wind up suddenly rushing down to the Riverlands, whether of her own will or to flee or even while being abducted. Characters in ASoIaF sometimes do wind up this close to one other and yet just miss each other, like ships in the night, but man, I’m hoping for some sort of convergence this time. Sandor I won’t really count on -- I don’t want him to stay retired, but I won’t discount the possibility that he might be staying on the QI for good -- but if Sansa ran into Jaime and/or Brienne and/or, y’know, HER UNDEAD MOTHER... Oh man. Oh man. Just imagine.

Yes, currently that’s what I believe. We already know she’s willing to die. From AFFC:

Seven, Brienne thought again, despairing. She had no chance against seven, she knew. No chance, and no choice. She stepped out into the rain, Oathkeeper in hand.

So... she didn’t suddenly change her mind when she was hanging because she was afraid of dying. IMO, Brienne yelled “sword” because as she was swinging, she realized that she was sacrificing Pod and Hyle and that they were all going to go after Jaime anyway, so they’d die for no reason. Her death doesn’t protect Jaime. If she pretends to go after him, she could maybe save the lives of Pod and Hyle and also get a chance to protect Jaime.

Oh, yeah. Very much. They are two sides of the same coin in their struggle with knighthood: what it's supposed to stand for vs their soul-crushing experience with it. It would be freaking criminal if they didn't reconnect and interact on the page. I would love to read any conversation between them. Now keep in mind I am not a Jaime expert, though I'm looking forward to doing a closer reread of him at some point. So I might be leaving some things out or oversimplifying. Despite having like one small direct interaction on the page (the joust at the Hand's tourney), there seems to be a lot of shared history and threads that connect them. We know Sandor's grandfather saved the life of Jaime's grandfather, resulting in the establishment of House Clegane. In their generation, however, they are both are products of highly dysfunctional families with a history of abuse (though different kinds), first inflicted by a sibling and then further compounded by their fathers.

Sandor entered service at the Rock at around 11ish years old in 281 or 282 AC, and was probably in his early to mid-teens when he became Cersei's shield. I say this because it seems like Sandor's worldview would have solidified into what it is after serving closely with the Lannisters at a still impressionable age. I imagine Sandor really distinguished himself during and shortly after Robert's Rebellion to get promoted to that privileged position. That's another thing that they have in common. Both distinguished themselves as formidable warriors at an uncommonly young age. I'm sure Jaime, who was already a member of the kingsguard, must have approved of Sandor because I doubt he'd be okay with just anyone guarding Cersei. And this must have been a point of pride for Sandor to prove himself as his grandfather once did, all without being a knight. Just as Jaime was proud of being knighted by Arthur Dayne and receiving his white cloak from King Aerys all at the age of 15, making him the youngest person ever raised to the kingsguard. The types of honors they both earned took them in different directions, but it is still a similarity. Once Cersei is wed to Robert in 284, this probably marks the start of when Jaime and Sandor were in each other's presence on a regular basis. A lot of rambling under the cut. I'm gonna tag @janiedean, because she knows way more about Jaime than I do, in case I get anything wrong or they have something to add that I missed.

I don't see how or why they wouldn't. It's probably going to be toward the end of TWOW after their current respective story arcs are wrapped up. I talked a bit about this here, but basically, Septon Meribald and Elder Brother will probably be the point of contact that brings "Team Sansa" and Team Brienne together. There are many threads tying different characters together leading back to the Quiet Isle, so getting them all together would kill multiple birds with one stone.

Meribald knows that Team Brienne killed the men who were actually responsible for the Saltpans massacre. Remember Rorge was impersonating the Hound which got Sandor blamed for horrendous crimes he did not commit and will be hanged on the spot if found. EB feels responsible for this because he left the Hound's helm on a cairn for Rorge to find. EB tried to clear Sandor's name through letters, claiming he was already dead, but that hasn't gotten any traction as far as the long arm of the law is concerned. This is real proof that may one day be used to help clear Sandor's name.

Brienne was taken captive by LSH at the inn at the crossroads. EB is a friend of the Heddles and the inn is currently run by Masha Heddle's nieces, Willow and Jeyne. I'm very sure Meribald is on his way back to the Quiet Isle to report that Saltpans outlaws also tried to do the same thing to the orphans sheltering there. They have Team Brienne to thank for preventing another massacre, but they are also facing hanging by LSH. I would think that Willow and Jeyne being associates of this noose-happy renegade R'hllorist cult is some cause for concern.

EB told Brienne the truth that Sandor never had Sansa, but he was with Arya until she left him on the bank of the Trident, which is a dead-end for leads on either Stark sister's current whereabouts; however, it is also not nothing, because Brienne is no longer on a wild goose chase of misinformation and misidentification. The trail may have gone cold for now, but that can easily change with new information.

The Quiet Isle has ravens and EB does get news from the outside world. If anything about Sansa or Arya pings his radar, he is going to take interest. He's already invested in the fates of both Stark sisters just by his investment of time and energy in Brienne and Sandor's stories.

EB has a call to action. In a short period of time, he's met two people who poured their hearts out about their inability to find/help Sansa Stark. When he tries to persuade Brienne that she should go home to her father, she adamantly refuses and says she must fulfill her oaths or die trying. EB was a knight in his old life, and the pull of those vows don't die easily. Case in point: he angrily refuses to forgive Ser Quincy Cox for his failure to protect the people of the Saltpans; however, EB also remained on the island while the massacre was going on. He was able to fight but chose not to as someone who has renounced violence. So his anger at Ser Quincy, who is a feeble old man, seems more like a projection of his own lame excuses and failure to act while innocents were getting slaughtered. That passage certainly isn't necessary to motivate Brienne, because she already knows what a true knight does and she's the one insisting she needs to fulfill her oaths or die trying. Nope, that story and Brienne sticking to her guns are there to motivate EB to act. Not the other way around.

And I would think, as a man of faith, he might take all this as a sign from his gods that he is being called upon to help in a just cause of finding Sansa before the bounty hunters do. Plus, he kinda owes Sandor big time for the Hound's helm fuck up.

And I think between Sansa and Brienne, I think Sansa is finally at a point in her development where she could interact with someone like Brienne without being shocked and judgemental. I go into that here (same as the first link I gave you if you haven't clicked it already). Sansa is more mature, she's taken the stick out of her butt, she's befriended more unconventional women, she's much warmer and more accepting instead of just being outwardly polite, etc. Some of Brienne's self-esteem issues have come from being rejected and mocked by the mean girls, so there's an opportunity here for some healing by someone like Sansa striking up a friendship with her. And I think Sansa would be genuinely curious about this lady knight that exemplifies Sansa's ideals. It would be beautiful to watch unfold.

I think it helps to remember that Sansa's intention behind the tourney idea is entirely different than Littlefinger's. It was clever. The tourney, the prizes, the winged knights, it had all been her own notion. Lord Robert's mother had filled him full of fears, but he always took courage from the tales she read him of Ser Artys Arryn, the Winged Knight of legend, founder of his line. Why not surround him with Winged Knights? She had thought one night, after Sweetrobin had finally drifted off to sleep. His own Kingsguard, to keep him safe and make him brave. And no sooner did she tell Petyr her idea than he went out and made it happen. -- Alayne I, TWOW. Her only thought was to help an anxiety-riddled child of murdered parents feel less fearful and defenseless. Robert is able to find his courage when he emulates Ser Artys Arryn and is consequently more physically and mentally resilient. When she told Littlefinger about her idea, he capitalized on it for his own reasons. He saw the perfect opportunity to draw Harrold Hardyng away from Yohn Royce's oppositional influence, leaving Royce up shit creek without a paddle. Harrold could then be caught between Alayne's seductions and pressure from his foster mother, Anya Waynwood, to accept the betrothal plan -- something we know Sansa has mixed feelings about. While the tourney was Sansa's idea, and she's proud of that, the sheer extravagance of it was undoubtedly more Littlefinger. He "went out and made it happen." It's not just showing off. It's a calculated move to extinguish any remaining challenges to his hold on power. The Vale houses are old, prestigious, and prideful, but many are cash poor and heavily in debt. This makes them incredibly vulnerable to flattery and thinly-veiled bribery. (Some are already shown to be overtly corrupt).

Sixty-four dishes were served, in honor of the sixty-four competitors who had come so far to contest for silver wings before their lord.

-- There were gifts as well, splendid gifts. Each of the competitors received a cloak of cloth-of-silver and a lapis brooch in the shape of a pair of falcon's wings. Fine steel daggers were given to the brothers, fathers, and friends who had come to watch them tilt. For their mothers, sisters, and ladies fair there were bolts of silk and Myrish lace. This is a huge turnaround from Lysa's time as regent, whose boneheaded decisions and unseemly behavior thumbed her nose at her vassals. Here, Littlefinger is rolling out the red carpet and giving everyone the V.I.P. treatment. Framing the Winged Knights as a new kingsguard appeals to the culture of tradition and formal pageantry. The new Lord Protector may be too low of birth for their liking, but he is very, very generous with his friends. They know it's bribery, but it's being done in a way that allows the lords to save face and maintain the appearance of having honor. What I'm saying is, Sansa probably did have a role in organizing the event to an extent, but in reality, she only tangentially has something to gain from the betrothal at best. The real winner here is Littlefinger. All she wanted to do was help her cousin, and with lack of other options, maybe get to go home one day.

As you said, Sansa was privy to the price-gouging scheme with the grain. This information came out in the TWOW chapter, at the start of the tourney, and she wasn't necessarily meant to overhear it. So it's not something she's going to be able to do anything about right now, but it's assuredly important she has that information in her back pocket for later. Mass starvation and the potential for social unrest isn't quite an immediate issue as it was in King's Landing. Yes, it is short-sighted folly to have a big ballin' feast on the cusp of what's predicted to be a long winter, both thematically and in reality. There will be harsh consequences. I also think it's a big fuckin mistake to have all these people (and all that grain) gathered in one place while everyone is distracted. That setup is just asking for an epic disaster. Remember arrogant Ser Hugh of the Vale, who Sansa saw die at the Hand's tourney by a giant's lance, and the moons of Arryn sewn on his cloak became soaked with blood? Yeah. High body count coming, for sure. And the loss of that food would be a tragic blow for all of Westeros as much of that grain is sold outside the Vale as a winter staple. But it's thematically fitting to destroy that portion of it as it's tainted goods by the lords who bowed to corruption, represented in that conversation by lords Belmore and Grafton. If George is critiquing anything here, it's that it's not just that people like Littlefinger exist, it's the greater problem of non-sociopathic regular people putting aside their morals to enable them for personal gain. Littlefinger's ability to harm would be much more limited if he didn't have so many cronies. That being said, in that same scene, Sansa also hears Yohn Royce has his own grain stores, ships, and ports out of Runestone. And George has conveniently kept Royce and his resources safely far away from the Gates of the Moon. Hmm. That sounds like it might be something.

What do you think about the posibillity that Sansa will give her favour in the upcomming tourney in TWOW to Sandor? I mean they seem to have a history with tourneys.

Here is the excerpt I'm referring to:

[Harry the Heir] grinned. "I will hold you up to that promise, my lady. Until that day, may I wear your favour in the tourney?"

"You may not. It's promised to... another.". [Sansa] was not sure who as yet, but she knew she would find someone." - Alayne 1, The Winds of Winter

Oh, anon. My dear, sweet anon. The answer to that question is part of my TWOW theory I wrote under the name Blue-Eyed Wolf.

You also might want to check out this essay at the Pawn to Player Project. Brashcandy arrived at some very similar thoughts on the upcoming tourney independently of me, which was thrilling. We did have a nice email correspondence over it afterward, though.

I don't think being implicated in the assassination of a king is something she will be absolved entirely of by everyone, everywhere. And as we can see, her reputation as a kingslayer has been quite the inspiration for some tall tales. The masses seem to only care about a murdered boy-king in as much as it's a really sensational true crime story. I mean, someone even thought to write a play about it. Opinions and attitudes will vary, as they usually do. Which IMO is good writing. Do I think those that maintain belief in her guilt will really matter in the end? No. What always wins people to Sansa's side is the way she treats them, and one way or another, I think she will earn the love of many by her own merits. It's probably safe to say the apocalypse will have a way of putting the past in perspective. The fact of the matter is, Sansa is not a 100% innocent bystander and completely unknowing about the hairnet because she is not an idiot.

"It's very lovely," Sansa said, thinking, It is a ship I need, not a net for my hair.

"Lovelier than you know, sweet child. It's magic, you see. It's justice you hold. It's vengeance for your father." Dontos leaned close and kissed her again. "It's home." -- Sansa VIII, ACOK. She was also instructed to wear this hairnet specifically on Joffrey's wedding day. The interaction she has with Dontos after she receives the Tyrell offer to take her to Highgarden is full of red flags, which she can sense:

When she told Ser Dontos that she was going to Highgarden to marry Willas Tyrell, she thought he would be relieved and pleased for her. Instead he had grabbed her arm and said, "You cannot!" in a voice as thick with horror as with wine. "I tell you, these Tyrells are only Lannisters with flowers. I beg of you, forget this folly, give your Florian a kiss, and promise you'll go ahead as we have planned. The night of Joffrey's wedding, that's not so long, wear the silver hair net and do as I told you, and afterward we make our escape." He tried to plant a kiss on her cheek.

Sansa slipped from his grasp and stepped away from him. "I won't. I can't. Something would go wrong. When I wanted to escape you wouldn't take me, and now I don't need to." Dontos is not relieved and happy she found an alternate means of getting away from Joffrey (red flag). Again, he very insistently hammers into her that wearing the hairnet on Joffrey's wedding day is critical to their escape (red flag). If she has no sense of foreboding that this hairnet has some ill purpose by now, then she wouldn't be so freaked out about going through with that plan or worried things would somehow backfire. Could she be thinking escaping through a backdoor is riskier than going out through the front door under Tyrell protection? Sure. But there are more details that come up later that speak to her having a spidey sense that something is really off about the hairnet. It's not that she knew the jewels were poison specifically. She's just a layperson with no familiarity with poisons of any kind, and I would not expect her to make that guess immediately. But for crying out loud, Dontos told her the hairnet was "VENGEANCE for her father." (RED FLAG) How could a reasonable person not question what that means exactly or not associate vengeance with violence? Sansa avoided asking some pretty obvious and more probing questions when she is very invested in going home. Her ignorance is an intentional choice on her part. She doesn't want to know exactly what hairnet's role is and why it's so important. When the Tyrell plan blows up and she is wed to Tyrion, she commits to wearing the hairnet to the wedding after all, come what may. She had her change of clothes in the godswood, ready to go as soon as whatever happens happens. She's accepted the outcome, even if she isn't 100% sure what the outcome will look like. And after Joffrey is dead, Sansa's feelings are understandably mixed.

He had not been dead when she left the throne room. He had been on his knees, though, clawing at his throat, tearing at his own skin as he fought to breathe. The sight of it had been too terrible to watch, and she had turned and fled, sobbing. Lady Tanda had been fleeing as well. "You have a good heart, my lady," she said to Sansa. "Not every maid would weep so for a man who set her aside and wed her to a dwarf."

A good heart. I have a good heart. Hysterical laughter rose up her gullet, but Sansa choked it back down. The bells were ringing, slow and mournful. Ringing, ringing, ringing. They had rung for King Robert the same way. Joffrey was dead, he was dead, he was dead, dead, dead. Why was she crying, when she wanted to dance? Were they tears of joy? Sansa is not someone who wants to stand there and relish Joffrey's agonizing death. Watching him suffer doesn't give her joy, only terror. At the same time, knowing that her abuser is dead and she's free of him makes her want to rejoice. And it's totally okay for her to have this dual nature between wanting to protect what's left of her innocence by running away from the horror of that vengeance realized AND feeling a sense of satisfaction that ding-dong the motherfucker's dead (I love how there are bells ringing in the scene). I mean, it's no lie she wanted to see Joffrey dead since her father's execution. Even had the intent of killing him herself in AGOT, and was only stopped by a third party. All it's showing is there is a darker side to Sansa when provoked. Not malicious streak, but a shadow self that lies beyond the limits of her compassion. Of course, I think she still has a good heart. I don't blame her for feeling elated at Joffrey's death or deciding to wear the hairnet when she had no alternatives. Joffrey's threats were escalating in depravity. Ultimately, she says Joffrey's fate was just and that the gods heard her prayer. She just didn't count on being set up (along with Tyrion) to look guilty as hell, and that's the realization that letting Dontos's fairytale "magic stones to take you home" explanation slide did not, in fact, protect her from anything.

As much as she's trying to deny it to herself, everything about her body language (see here and here) screams that she knew on some instinctual level the hairnet was more than just a hairnet for some time. That it is probably was a weapon of some sort. If she had no idea, then she probably wouldn't think anything of the missing stone. It's when the undeniable reality of Joffrey's murder by poison sets in, and she's prime suspect #2, that she's finally confronting Dontos about it.

Even if the Tyrells' involvement was fully exposed (i.e. transferring the poison from the hairnet to Joffrey's wine), that information doesn't automatically exonerate Sansa in public opinion. It just confirms she delivered the murder weapon to the assassin's hand, making her part of an ever-widening ring of conspirators. So if anything, it might make her look even more guilty in some people's eyes, but they probably already thought she was guilty anyway since she has "traitor's blood," fled the scene, and had more than enough motive to kill Joffrey. I cannot stress enough here that George's goal was never to make Sansa look universally bad or good within the story or to readers. He's trying to tell a story where realistically flawed human characters are struggling with internal conflict as much as external ones. For Sansa's part, he's trying to take her from naive unearned idealism to forged-in-the-fire earned idealism. For that, he's putting her through moral challenges that are increasingly less clear-cut. That means, sometimes her hands won't be 100% clean. And that's okay! Sansa's tendency to put on rose-colored glasses so red flags just look like normal flags is a half-inherited trait (Ned does this) and half-coping mechanism when shit gets too real. It's a flaw that is very easy to sympathize with under her circumstances of being manipulated, coerced, and entrapped into doing things she isn't comfortable with; however, it's a coping mechanism that will not serve her and has to be unlearned if her adversary is Littlefinger and Sweetrobin's life hangs in the balance. Littlefinger's grooming is meant to slowly tease out that shadow self, erode her conscience, and walk her over in baby steps to a fully-fledged sociopathic-leaning partner in crime.

It's highly unrealistic for her to come out smelling of roses after a long association with Littlefinger and being increasingly implicated in his crimes; however, this is what whistleblowers are for. They come forward and expose the corruption they were once a party to. And yes, it takes courage to face the potential backlash or consequences to do the right thing. That's earned idealism. As for Sweetrobin, I don't have the energy right now to elaborate on how I don't think it's a foregone conclusion he will die. I'd say it's 60/40 he'll live. Some key points:

The waif's story tells us how it's possible to survive the ravages of sweetsleep abuse IF there is an intervention by a healer that knows how to treat it. It can leave a person permanently affected, but they can live to adulthood. I don't think George decided to give us this fun fact for no reason at all.