#timeline bs

NOTE: If you're seeing this, then this post is still a WIP; only pre-Zero Hour continuity has been covered so far.

Age at Death + Starlin's Run

Out of everything, I think Jason’s age and the overall timeline of Jim Starlin's entire run on Batman (Batman #414–430) are the most important, but also most butchered, areas of Jason’s pre-Zero Hour continuity. Like, seriously guys, I don’t know how it got this bad; we’ve all been really off base. This section is the longest, and I’m going to ask you to bear with me through some pretty granular timeline stuff, but I promise it all goes somewhere, and you’ll come out of this as baffled as I am regarding the fandom’s perception of Jason’s age in these comics.

SOURCE ONE: Batman Annual (1940) #12

In The Back-Up, which was included in Batman Annual (1940) #12, Jason is explicitly stated to be a 7th grader. On that same page I linked, Jason references KGBeast—a character who did not exist until the storyline Batman: Ten Nights of the Beast (Batman #417–420)—meaning Batman Annual #12 must take place after Batman #417–420. From there, Jason runs away in Batman #426, and is dead by Batman #428. It's obvious that multiple years didn't pass from Batman #420 to Batman #426; neither the comics nor editorial give any reason to believe otherwise...but I promised a full walk-through, so here we go.

The in-universe timeline of Jim Starlin's entire run on Batman (Batman #414–430) can be tracked pretty easily. The goal of tracking Starlin's run is to demonstrate why it cannot take place over multiple years; if Jason is a 7th grader after the KGBeast arc, he cannot plausibly have aged into another grade by ADITF. Batman #414 begins Starlin's run as well as the "Dumpster Slasher" trilogy, which then continues in Batman #421 and concludes in Batman #422. On page two of Batman #421, we’re told that since Batman #414, the total number of victims has increased to ten, and that the killer has since developed a pattern of killing once a week, skipping the third. Subsequently, on page three of Batman #421, we're told that Kate Babcock was Victim #5. As we were shown another victim after Kate in Batman #414, we can derive that the pattern started with Victim #6 at the end of Batman #414, and we can simply follow the pattern therefrom:

      Week 1: Victim #6 (end of Batman #414)       Week 2: Victim #7       Week 3: Skipped       Week 4: Victim #8       Week 5: Victim #9       Week 6: Skipped       Week 7: Victim #10       Week 8: Victim #11 (beginning of Batman #421)

As you may have noticed, I included a “Victim #11” despite earlier stating there were ten victims. This is because on page two of Batman #421, Bruce says to Gordon that there should have been an eleventh victim that week and is then informed that they haven’t found a body, yet. Read the issue if you want to know what I mean by that "yet", as it's not relevant for timeline stuff, but this tells us that everything from Batman #414–421 happens within two months, including Batman: Ten Nights of the Beast, which, as the name suggests, takes place over ten nights. Furthermore, the end of Batman #421 flows directly into the beginning of Batman #422, and in the middle of Batman #422, there's a 3-month time skip. Therefore, everything from the end of Batman #414 through the end of Batman #422 happens within ~5 months.

Unfortunately, after Batman #422, I've been unable to find anything that tells us how much time passes within Starlin's run, but I can estimate from looking at the art and the pacing of the actual story. I don’t think any significant amount of time passes from Batman #422–426, and then Batman #426–430 seems to take place over a few weeks, so, to err on the side of caution, I’m going to call it roughly 1–3 months. This means that Starlin's entire Batman run, excluding the last few issues where Jason is dead, takes place over roughly 6–8 months, but that's not all—I can also tell you what time of year it takes place.

Detective Comics (1937) #581 takes place around the 200th anniversary of the U.S. Constitution, which was signed on September 17th, 1787. The following issue, Detective Comics #582, is a direct tie-in to Batman #415, meaning we can reasonably assume Starlin's run begins in early fall; add 6–8 months, and we end up in the spring for ADITF (well, isn't that a satisfying coincidence?). From there, we can reason that Starlin's run takes place within one school year. Ergo, if Jason was in 7th grade in Batman Annual #12, which, as I've already established, takes place after Batman #420, then he must also have been a 7th grader when he died.

Jason didn't have a birthday in the 80's, so we can't pinpoint an exact age just off pre-Zero Hour continuity, but 7th graders are 12–13 years old, which means Jason was 12–13 years old when he died. This is an absurd level of detail to track a comic book timeline down to, but I didn't want to leave room for anyone to be like "Wait, but a summer could have passed, which would put him in 8th grade". So...there you go.

SOURCE TWO: Letter Columns of Batman (1940) #413

NOTE: Transcribed this one in case the links break, since I know finding letter columns can be a pain.

In the letter columns of Batman #413, a reader wrote in, asking about Jason’s age:

My one complaint about this otherwise excellent two-part story concerns the ambiguity of Jason’s age. The way Chris Warner drew him in #408, he looks to be about ten years old, which would be right if, as Denny O’Neil says, the story occurs about three years ago. But in #409, Jason looks like he could be thirteen. Tom Mandrake had him looking about fifteen or sixteen (see the portrait in WHO’S WHO). Klaus Janson did the same in DETECTIVE #568. And in BATMAN #402 he could be about eighteen or twenty. However, according to the tombstone at the end of DETECTIVE #571, he is twelve! Let’s have a ruling. Once and for all, how old is Jason Todd?

I think a lot of people read the first couple of sentences of this question, skip straight to the answer, and then end up confused—cough, DC wiki—but the reader explicitly mentions that Batman #408 happens in the past, and then goes on to discuss comics that, at the time, were taking place in present continuity. It is pretty clear, at least to me, that what they’re confused about is the fact that Jason seemed to have multiple present-continuity-ages, and they couldn’t even estimate his then-current age based on what he looked like in Batman #408–409. In other words, it is more reasonable to assume the letter is asking “How old is Jason in present continuity?” rather than “How old is Jason meant to be in Batman #408–409?”. The response to the reader's question makes this interpretation difficult to dispute:

OK, I’m going to go right to the sensei on this one: “Oh great Denny-lama, just how old is Jason Todd?” “Ah, weed-hopper, he is 12. Now quit bowing to me and take that silly turban off your head!”

Whether or not you interpreted the reader's question as “How old is Jason in present continuity?”, I think it’s pretty clear the editors did. I don’t see a case for arguing that this is not an explicit answer for how old Jason was in present continuity at the time.

Alternatively, if that's not a good enough reason for you, we've established that Jason is a 7th grader in Batman Annual #12, which takes place after Batman #420, and that Batman #414–422 take place over ~5 months. In addition, we know that Batman #408–409 take place about 3 years before then-present continuity (see sources five and six for details). Therefore, to claim this response is stating that Jason was 12 in Batman #408 instead of present continuity, you must also claim that Batman #414–422 happened about 3 years in the past, which would be...untruthful.

Batman #413 directly precedes Batman #414, which means Jason was ~12 at the beginning of Starlin's run—the beginning of the school year—reaffirming Jason being in 7th grade throughout.

NOTE: I’m still busy and haven’t been able to add this source to the post, but the letter columns of Batman #420 also state that Jason is 12!

SOURCE THREE: Detective Comics (1937) #571

NOTE: I’ve actually managed to work this into the timeline and make it more useful! I don’t have the time to write out a super detailed explanation at the moment, but if you’re curious you can read a non-polished version here.

In Detective Comics #571, we're shown Jason's birth year (1974) and the current year (1986), which would put Detective Comics #571 in the year Jason turns 12. You might be wondering why I didn't list this source earlier, and that's because it's more difficult to place in overall continuity than Batman Annual #12. Mike W. Barr's run on Detective Comics ('TEC) was essentially responsible for reestablishing the dynamic duo in post-Crisis continuity. It was released alongside Batman: Year One (Batman #404–407) as well as Jason's origin retelling (Batman #408–411), and had a flashback story of its own, making those first few issues comparatively self-contained, given that they were the primary source for Batman and Robin's present continuity at the time.

They're still fully canon, but they're difficult to decisively place in Jason's overall post-Crisis timeline, so I think 'TEC #571 is best used as secondary, rather than primary, evidence to strengthen the claim made with the first and second sources.

SOURCE FOUR: DC TTRPG Card From 1989

This is a DC TTRPG card from 1989—right after Jason’s death—which lists Jason as 13 years old and deceased. 7th graders are usually 13 by the spring, so this card placing him at 13 makes sense and lines up with everything we've established so far. It should be noted that this is licensed by DC, rather than being from an actual comic, creator, or some other form of official material; thus, I wouldn't use it as a standalone source. However, since the card matches up with every other source from the time pretty nicely, I think it's useful as additional proof, much like the third source, as it makes the claim feel a bit more solid.

TL;DR

Every source I've found for this era points to the same conclusion: Jason was 12–13 years old when he died in aDitF. The primary evidence for this interpretation appears in Batman Annual #12, which establishes that Starlin's entire Batman run takes place within Jason’s 7th-grade year, thus making Jason a 7th-grader when he died. This evidence is corroborated by the letter columns of Batman #413—which place Jason at 12 at the beginning of Starlin’s run—as well as ‘TEC #571 and the DC TTRPG Card, which place Jason at 12 and 13 years old respectively. 

Since we don't have a canonical birthday for Jason in pre-Zero Hour continuity, I can't claim with complete certainty whether his 13th birthday occurred before he died. I know that’s lame, but “vaguely 7th-grader shaped” is pretty clean in terms of comic book timelines, so I suggest we just count our blessings and be grateful that every source seems to support the same conclusion.

Meeting Bruce + Debuting as Robin

I’d love to tell you that you’ve made it through the hard part and that this next section is easier, but that’d be a lie. Jason was aged down with his reimagined origin story following CoIE, which meant his age at meeting Bruce and his debut as Robin were established entirely through retcons in pre-Zero Hour continuity. This, in some ways, makes this age more straightforward, as editorial was able to cement his introduction and then-present age simultaneously while they were restructuring panoptic continuity, meaning Jason’s ages fit very easily into DC’s initial post-Crisis timelines where other characters’ get muddied or contradicted. However, since they were technically retcons, we do not see these ages reflected in the actual pre-Crisis material that was affected, making them somewhat self-contained and difficult to confirm when compared externally. 

This is why I established Jason’s age following CoIE first: it gives us an anchor to tether these retcons to and, hopefully, makes them easier for you guys to interpret—though that may be wishful thinking on my part. Nonetheless, pre-Zero Hour continuity remains relatively consistent on this figure, and I promise the method to pinning it down isn’t that convoluted so long as you’re capable of some basic subtraction.

SOURCE FIVE: Batman (1940) #416

Batman #416 is a flashback set one year in the past from present continuity, which, as I just established in my explanation of source one, would at this point be the fall of Jason's 7th grade year—meaning he'd be ~12 in the "present", and ~11 in this flashback. This issue is a retelling of Dick and Jason's first meeting, as Jason's revised post-crisis origin story rendered the original story obsolete. On page ten of Batman #416, Bruce says to Dick that he hasn't heard from him in eighteen months, which we can assume is referencing when Dick was fired in Batman #408.

Bruce meets Jason in Batman #408 weeks after Dick leaves; since there's only "weeks" between Dick leaving and Jason popping up, I think it's acceptable to use ~18 months for how long it's been since Bruce met Jason as well. I mean, it's a comic book timeline, we're lucky if we can get it down to a specific season, let alone specific weeks.

Anyway, that means that, according to Batman #416, about ~2.5 years pass from when Jason meets Bruce in Batman #408 to the present of Batman #416, or the fall of Jason's 7th grade year. Therefore, if Jason is ~12 in the fall of his 7th grade year, we can derive Jason is about 9–10 years old when he meets Bruce in Batman #408.

SOURCE SIX: Letter Columns of Batman (1940) #412

NOTE: Again, transcribed this one in case the link breaks, since I know finding letter columns can be annoying.

In the letter columns of Batman #412, a reader wrote in, asking why Jason was getting an origin story when he already had one and had been Robin for years. An editor, Johnathan Peterson, replied:

The reason Jason Todd’s origin is being reintroduced, David, is because DC’s hit mini-series CRISIS ON INFINITE EARTHS completely wiped out his earlier origin, namely the one in BATMAN #368. Actually, a few people wrote in expressing their similar confusion over the situation. So, let’s set the record straight. The events in BATMAN #408-409 chronicle the one, true, post-CRISIS origin of Jason Todd in Batman continuity. Also, this story takes place about 3 years ago. Thus, we are not denying Dick Grayson quit Robin to become Nightwing. It's just that we're not chronicling in depth Dick's decision to leave and his subsequent solo adventures in our current run of stories.

This one kind of speaks for itself. I mean Peterson literally explicitly states that Batman #408–409 took place ~3 years ago, ergo, if Jason was ~12 in what was then present continuity, then Jason was ~9 when he met Bruce in Batman #408. I would've included this source first because it's so easy to follow, but it's from the letter columns so I figured I'd prioritize the comic-based evidence.

SOURCE SEVEN: Robert Greenberger's Guidebooks

NOTE: You guessed it. Transcribed for your convenience. Also, if you're wondering why I'm including a post-Zero Hour source in this section, it's because the book seems to use Jason's pre-Zero Hour timeline. I can elaborate on what I mean by this in the replies, but basically, it's a guide, not a comic, meaning it goes in the same section as the material it's based on.

In his book The Essential Batman Encyclopedia (2008), Robert Greenberger explicitly claims that Jason was 9 years old when he met Bruce:

In the wake of CRISIS ON INFINITE EARTHS, Batman was once again a loner after Dick Grayson moved out of the manor. While visiting CRIME ALLEY, he discovered nine-year-old Jason Todd in the process of stealing the BATMOBILE's tires. Batman was impressed by the youth's moxie and took him to MA GUNN's School for Boys. The facility, though, was a front for a criminal operation that used the boys as thieves. Once Batman and Jason helped put an end to the scheme, the Dark Knight realized that he could mold the impetuous boy and decided the time had come to take on a new partner.

Furthermore, in another of his books, Batman: 100 Greatest Moments: Highlights from the History of The Dark Knight (2019), Greenberger repeats this detail:

After the events of Crisis on Infinite Earths, it was decided to revamp Jason. Incoming writer Max Allan Collins made him a nine-year-old street urchin, first found in Crime Alley trying to rip off the Batmobile's tires. He explained that his criminal father was dead and he believed his mother was as well, so he had learned to fend for himself.

It should be noted that these excerpts are from guidebooks, meaning they aren't necessarily canon material or direct contemporary statements from the creators, and they serve best as secondary, rather than primary, evidence. For this very reason, I usually avoid guidebooks for continuity research; compiling decades of comic book history into one coherent narrative inevitably leads to errors. This is especially true for comic book timelines, which are infamously difficult to track, let alone when trying to balance multiple characters across various titles. However, it's important to look at evidence from every angle before you disregard it, and I think Greenberger has the history to make his word on this topic worth further consideration.

In 1984, Robert Greenberger was hired as an assistant editor to help Len Wein and Marv Wolfman. In case you're not particularly well-versed on the internal bureaucracy at DC, a core part of an editor's job description is maintaining continuity—it is literally their job to track the timelines, histories, and ages of characters across multiple titles.

I'd like to emphasize the fact that he worked alongside Len Wein and Marv Wolfman of all people, who were almost entirely responsible for coordinating and establishing post-Crisis continuity in the 80's. What's more, he's credited as both an editor and a writer for COIE and Who's Who, two projects that served as the foundation for post-Crisis continuity and characterization; his work during this period was so vital that he was promoted to editor only a year later in 1985. This guy is more than qualified to speak on continuity details from the mid-80's, especially for a character as integral to the DC mythos as Robin.

If that weren't enough, Greenberger wrote The Back-Up, which, in case you forgot, is literally the story in Batman Annual #12 that establishes Jason as a 7th grader. So he isn't just an accredited writer and editor who worked around the time Jason was Robin, he was directly involved with writing Jason Todd and the creator of one of the most straightforward sources for gauging Jason's age I've personally come across. If that doesn't make him worth listening to, then I don't know what else would.

Personally, I actually think it's really interesting that he claims Jason was 9 of all ages, since that's not necessarily the most intuitive option just going off the comics. From Batman #416 alone, you could easily argue that Jason was 10, while 9 only becomes the sole option if you exclusively go off Peterson's claim of "about 3 years" from source six. The fact that after twenty years, he included this age in his Batman encyclopedia, and then reaffirmed the detail ten years later in a second guidebook, makes me think it's an age for Jason editorial actually had written down somewhere and he personally remembered, rather than being something he independently pieced together years down the line.

Ultimately, I'm not going to claim these statements should be used as definitive sources, as, in any case, they're statements from guidebooks, rather than comic books, but I think they can tenably be used as additional evidence. Given that Greenberger's assertion fits perfectly within that 9–10-year-old range the previous two sources established, I think placing Jason at 9–10 years old when he met Bruce is more than reasonable when discussing pre-Zero Hour continuity.

SOURCE EIGHT: Batman (1940) #410

Batman #410—the first part of a two-part retelling of Jason's first outing as Robin—tells us on page one that it's been six months since Bruce took Jason in, ergo, six months pass between Jason meeting Bruce and his first Robin outing. Since, again, we didn't have a birthday for Jason in pre-Zero Hour continuity, there's no way for us to know if his birthday passed within those six months. Therefore, if Jason was 9–10 years old when he met Bruce, he was also 9–10 years old when he made his post-Crisis Robin debut.

On page two of Batman #410, we're told by the narration that Jason is a "fifth-grade dropout"; considering fifth-graders are 10–11 years old, this would expand the 9–10-year-old range the previous three sources established, making Jason 10–11 years old when he met Bruce in Batman #408. However, I think this source can reasonably be labeled as an outlier, as three sources (a comic, a contemporary editorial statement, and a repeated claim from a credible writer), should probably be taken over one source (a comic).

Moreover, I think it's important to remember the context in which these comics were being written. Batman #408–411 were released as countless changes were being made to the overall DC continuity, and they may not have yet fully established an internal Batman timeline for the new post-Crisis continuity; notably, this age lines up suspiciously well with the pre-Crisis Batman timeline, which makes me think this may have actually been the case.

Also, the actual phrasing of "fifth-grade dropout" is kind of vague. You could argue this phrasing implies he dropped out of fifth grade, but it could also be interpreted as Jason currently being a fifth grader, as well as a dropout, placing him much closer to 10, or even 9 years old, six months earlier when he met Bruce. I'm not saying either of these reasons are enough to completely disregard this source; what's most important is that there are more sources it contradicts than it affirms, but, like I said earlier, it's best to look at a source from every angle before deciding it should be disregarded.

Regardless of the contradictions, it's there in the text, and I feel the need to include it here so you guys get the full picture. Even so, when tracking comic book timelines, there are going to be places where you just have to choose something to use and something to lose. So, as much as I hate disregarding on-panel evidence, one piece of evidence isn't enough to outweigh the broader evidentiary pattern that's been established through the other three sources. Therefore, for the purpose of this post, I'm going to set this source aside and keep the cleaner 9–10-year-old range.

TL;DR

Most sources I've found from this era support a relatively consistent conclusion: Jason was 9–10 years old when he met Bruce in Batman #408, and still 9–10 when he debuted as Robin six months later in Batman #410. Batman #416 places his meeting with Bruce about 2.5 years before the beginning of Starlin’s run, and editor Johnathan Peterson states outright in the letter columns of Batman #412 that Batman #408–409 took place "about 3 years ago."

Working backward from Jason’s established then-present age, both land Jason at roughly 9–10 years old when he first crosses paths with Bruce, and since only six months separate that meeting from his first outing in the pixie boots, the same range holds for his official Robin debut story in Batman #410. Bob Greenberger's guidebooks narrow this figure down to nine specifically, which, again—not proof on their own, but a nice bit of reinforcement from someone who was literally referred to as “the Continuity Cop That Walks Like a Man” in DC’s editorial shop. 

The one outlier is Batman #410's narration calling Jason a "fifth-grade dropout," which nudges our range toward 10–11 years old instead. As I already explained, I'm treating that as the odd one out rather than the rule, since it's outnumbered by a comic, an editorial statement, and a repeated authorial claim, and may be a holdover from the pre-Crisis timeline that hadn't been fully scrubbed yet. We still don’t have a canonical birthday for Jason in pre-Zero Hour continuity, which means I still can’t pinpoint an exact age within this range, but, as I said in the last section, 9–10 is a pretty clean range in terms of comic book timelines, especially compared to other characters—see: 8–13-year-old Dick Grayson as Robin.

Final Review

From what I can tell, the pre-Zero Hour consensus was that Jason was 9–10 years old when he met Bruce and debuted as Robin, and 12–13 years old when he died.

If there's any piece of evidence relating to this topic and era of continuity that I didn't include, please let me know. There's always a chance I forgot something, didn't write it down, or just haven't personally seen it. Likewise, if there's something you noticed in this post—logic, reasoning, counterarguments, etc—that I didn't account for, tell me, and I'll try my best to adjust or clarify as needed.

Anyway, that's pretty much everything I have to discuss, like I've covered all the relevant material I know of, as well as the analysis attached to it. This era, specifically the 80's, has the most material regarding Jason's age and continuity as Robin, which makes it annoying to go through, but also probably the most comfortable since there are multiple sources to support each claim.

Following Zero Hour and even Flashpoint, the timeline gets compressed, stretched, and so on, changing Jason's ages with it, but these ages are, from what I can tell, what he was originally intended to be read as. Comic books in general don't have completely linear timelines. It's just the nature of the genre; you can't have reasonably paced stories while also keeping characters the ages you want them to be over decades of publishing.

In my opinion, you're better off reading characters as the age intended in whatever comic you're reading, rather than aging them up or down in accordance with later continuities and retcons, meaning you should use these ages for these events in Jason's life. However, I do understand the need to organize it all into one coherent timeline, evidently, which is why I'm going to go through different ways to do that after I go through post-Zero Hour. Still, I think you should at the very least keep these ages in the back of your head when reading material from the era, especially Jason's original Robin run. It's important context for meta-discussion, as well as the actual stories and Jason's characterization within them.

I'm leaving off here for now because I'm still working on the other parts. I was originally going to do one big post/reblog chain all at once, but lowkey, this is taking forever, and I needed the dopamine hit from posting something before I lost interest and "took a break" (gave up). The other parts will be shorter and less intense, cause there's just not as much stuff to go through, so you don't have to worry about this already long post getting that much longer. Ideally, they'll be posted in the next few days, so...yeah.

so again, as OP just demonstrated, we know sheila leaves gotham right after jason is born, and we also know that she knew the joker before then, meaning the joker existed as the joker before she left, which means she left—at the earliest—in year 1, ergo, jason was born in year 1 at the earliest. considering, as i outlined earlier, jason steals the tires off the batmobile in year 10 at the latest, he can be at most 9, unless ofc you add three years in between dick being fired and jason showing up to age everyone up…but literally why would you do that? 😭

like if we use the ages we’re actually given for bruce pre-Zero Hour he’d already be kinda old even with this timeline—he’s stated to turn 26 in year 1 so he’d be turning 35 in year 10—if you add three years to get jason to 12 you’d be making him even older, like absurdly so. i’m all for letting bruce age but he was not fucking 38 when he met jason lmfao.

i actually don’t really mind this timeline because if you ignore the ages given in by1, post-Crisis actually lines up quite nicely with pre-Crisis. we’re told in TEC #574 that bruce’s parents died 25 years ago, meaning—given he was 8 when his parents died—he turns 33 in the present year; we’re also told a few issues earlier in TEC #571 that jason was born 12 years ago, ergo, jason turns 12 the same year bruce turns 33.

if we plug those ages into this timeline that’d make bruce 30 when he meets jason in year 10, and 20-turning-21 on his first outing as batman at the start of year 1, which lines up quite nicely with him becoming batman before he was 21 in pre-Crisis continuity!! huzzah.