#talkbacktuesday

What inspired you to write this play?

The boring answer is my grandmother’s death, but I think it’s the true answer too. I wasn’t particularly close with her, so watching her slowly die over a three-week period allowed me a bird’s-eye view of how cyclical grief can be without becoming mired in it myself. I watched my family say goodbye over and over again, and I think every goodbye granted me a little more distance so I could write the play.  

Your play's characters share names with those of the Dick & Jane books, but they look and talk very differently, and deal with considerably different issues. Why did you choose those characters to tell this story?

In the final years of my time as an undergrad, I worked as a sign language interpreter for deaf students in a handful of different middle schools throughout the region. Many of the students (few of whom were white) were required to take speech therapy lessons that I would then be required to interpret. The speech therapist frequently used early childhood primers as the texts for the students to practice with, and more often than not, it would be the Dick and Jane books themselves. This was striking to me for two reasons: one, these books used to amplify and improve one language (English) were actually suppressing another (American Sign Language); and two, these books featuring a white nuclear family were the only portal for these students of color to understand what’s “universal.” That experience became the first seed of my play. 

This play is produced in partnership with The Sol Project, whose mission is to "amplify Latinx voices" to create "create a bold, powerful, and kaleidoscopic body of work for the new American theater." As part of that movement, what are your hopes for the future of Latinx theater?

This interview is also available on the PAAL Podcast!

Rachel: Roberta and I have had the privilege of working together on the Radical Parent Inclusion Project at The Playwrights Realm for Mothers. We also have a childcare matinee on October 5th in partnership with Broadway Babysitters.

Roberta, I’m so excited to be talking to you! I would love to hear about how this idea came up for you, that moment of inception when it clicked for you personally, “I want to institutionalize this. I want to make it formal.”

Roberta: For me, this really came about when I became a parent, almost two years ago now. I have always been a pretty active speaker for a lot of different theater events, and I started getting invited to participate in panels around parents and the arts. And so, the first one that I put together was a panel at BroadwayCon, and then at the TCG fall forum which you, Rachel, invited me and we did together, and I just started hearing from a lot of freelance artists about some of their challenges. And of course I was facing challenges as a new mom, and especially as a solo mom, but you know my job as producing director of The Playwrights Realm – I have a salary, I have health insurance fully paid by the Realm, and also because I'm one of the people who run the organization, I have a certain amount of flexibility in my schedule. So there are a lot of things that make this job a good fit for a parent. Then I just started hearing all these stories about artists - really, horror stories about, you know, them having to basically hide a part of themselves. I am a big champion that art is better when everybody can participate. I've been doing a lot of work with including more people of color in theater, and I started thinking about how “everybody” should include parents and caretakers too, and what could we as an organization - as an organization that really champions artists - and me personally do about it. So that's when I started having this idea - what if we did a production process Off-Broadway that was radically inclusive to parents and what would that mean. And really, I'm not a big fan of doing things just because that's the way things have always been done. I love thinking about things in a different way and looking at it differently. And this was an opportunity for that. I said, what if we looked at everything, nothing is off the table, and just really be creative about it, and start from that point as opposed to the point of "let's make parents fit in this process" - but "let's make the process fit for parents."

Rachel: Absolutely. I think that that personal insight, that empathy is so key in creating access. Because you had some advantages, you had some obstacles, but it was about you hearing what the obstacles were outside of your scope of discipline - and then you had the power to create change for that. That's a testament to your leadership style that doesn't get talked about enough, which is the power of empathy, in the end, the activities that you ask people to engage in, which is so awesome. I have loved working with you on this project. We've been we've been talking about it since the TCG Fall Forum, but we've been really been down in the dirt with it all since February. This has been an extended process. I would love to know, in terms of the preproduction and the planning, what surprised you the most?

Roberta: It surprised me that we made a very conscious decision of being very forward about trying to hire as many parents as possible, and one thing that became clear is that parent artists book their schedules way further in advance - even further than the non-parent-artists. I haven't done a scientific study of this, but if I had to compare, I would say, generally speaking, the parent artists have to figure out their lives far further in advance than the non-parents. Now it seems obvious, but at the time I was like - "wow, I didn't think that was gonna be a challenge."

Rachel: Right. It would be a difficult one to anticipate, I think, because it's so part of the nuance of scheduling outside of production. It’s part of the freelance artist life before they meet your production. It is a weird thing, I think, for a producer to anticipate, but so cool that we discovered that. I remember you saying, “Oh wow the whole list of individuals I want to ask. They were pretty booked,” and that’s a wonderful thing, and it makes the planning process significant in terms of things that have worked really well. What was something you planned in the budget where were you thought, "I did that well. That's something that I want to see happen again?"

Roberta: I actually think that the main thing that worked well is - and this is completely how we do things at The Realm - we give our playwrights the support they individually need. Different playwrights have very different needs, very different kinds of support. So, a lot of times this has been a challenge with my job because I'm budgeting without knowing what we're going to need. Sometimes, I make educated guesses, but I also try to leave as much flexibility as possible for us to be able to move things around and say, we had a situation, for example, some years ago that a playwright's computer died, and then she came to us and she said, “oh, I would love to use some of my funds to buy a new computer.” And I didn't have a line item for “new computer” but I had a line for professional development or whatever, so then I was like, “Great, we can use that!” You know, having that kind of flexibility. And so, in this case, that was the thing from the beginning. You and I were very clear about the fact that we didn't know. I mean, “parents and caregivers,” that's a pretty big category, right? Different parents and caregivers have totally different needs. So I put together a sample budget of what we thought we were going to be doing, but there was a big amount of flexibility in it. As we put together the team, and we discovered their needs, we were able to move those funds as necessary - and this still happening. For example, as our childcare matinee gets more and more popular every day, which is amazing - but it means that we need more support there, because we need more caregiver sitters. So allowing for flexibility was something that was very necessary in this process. And honestly, I think in any process with parents and caregivers, because the needs are vastly different. 

Rachel: Yes, and we have been in touch with this a lot. In the PAAL resources we say, “this is not a prescriptive understanding,” that there are a plethora of ways to help parent artists. It's going to be about listening to what that individual needs and having a vocabulary of possible supportive measures. Then, the question becomes, what do you do when that person needs that specific kind of access? Something that I did learn from you while we were having this conversation, and seeing you interact with the different individuals in your theater, and that you do this so well, is that you also have the support of your staff and what seems like great support from your board. You as a leader have set a tone of “this is what we say yes to. We say yes to the person. This is our budget, it’s flexible, and you can trust me with it because I know how to do my job.” I would love to hear more on that part of the perspective for you and how you set up the work culture for those around you to embrace when this opportunity came along. I’m sure people were surprised by the details of it, because everyone is learning on this process, but everybody seems to embrace that “this is who we're accepting, and this is who we're bringing in.” What aspect do you think went into those conversations - in the work culture and values - that really primed for this to be possible at The Realm?

Roberta: Yeah, I think, especially since I've come here (I've been here for four years now) we have been a lot more transparent and vocal about our values of being an organization that embraces, for example, equity, anti-discrimination, anti-racism, and so on. And I try to make these values very encompassing. As I said, this is a belief of mine - that I do think that art should be welcoming to everybody and everybody should feel like it's theirs as well. And so, this is just part of it. I will say, though, that the session that we did with you that was about empathy, specifically, with the staff - because I'm the only person on the staff right now that has a child, and there are nine of us here in the office - that session was really wonderful, because we've talked about it later to apply to other subjects. So we’ll say, “oh yeah, it’s like when Rachel talked about empathy.” I think it has helped us serve artists better, not just parents artists - artists in general, just thinking about this. I made a little note from your talk that is now how we make decisions: “Is it legal, is it ethical, is compassionate?” And I have it literally on my desk. I’m looking at it right now, because I think that's a very interesting framework. And as I said, it fits nicely already with the culture of what we do here and really being led by our values and then going back to what you said. I think that the reason why it works so well is because I think that the values of the organization mirror a lot of the values of the people within the organization. Everybody here on our staff really believes in these values, and so they want to work harder for them. 

Rachel: I was really very moved. I knew that you were the only parent when I came in and mentioned to you that I would like to do PAAL’s Compassion Training. And when we did that session, I was so moved by how engaged everyone was. They were so honest and transparent and wanting to learn. I think it's also important to say that part of that training was also for us to come to them and say, “you know, in all honesty, this is not supposed to feel comfortable or perfect all the time. We're about to engage in something that is going to have its obstacles and its upsets.” And I think that that was an important and a really valuable point that you were willing to lead with as well with your team. You’ve said to me multiple times, “this is part of the learning process, and this is how we take care of it.” It's just been really encouraging. So that said, now that we've prepped everyone with the process that went into it, could you tell me about the play and how it hits those who will be talking about it an hour later. I would love to hear about why you like this play - Mothers - because it's different than just like your typical mom play and I'd like to hear your thoughts on it!

Roberta: Well, that's honestly one of the things that I love the most about it. When I had this idea to do this parenting thing, I knew that I wanted to do it connected to a play that was written by a parent, probably a mother. So we were kind of waiting for the perfect play, and what I loved about [Mothers] is how dark it is. It's so unexpected. Especially when you hear the origin story of the play, which I'm sure we'll talk to you about more, [Anna Moench, the playwright] was a new mom and thinking about these things that were so huge. And this is how she dealt with it. It's awesome. I actually I have this dream - I really want somebody to ask me to write an essay about mothers who write horror stories, because I've always been a big fan of Mary Shelley, and I don't know if you know this, but she wrote Frankenstein partially based on the experience of having her daughter. And when you read Frankenstein you're like "I completely understand how a mother wrote this." And I actually think Mothers is like Frankenstein. That’s my big thing. I think that there is a special kind of horror that you start experiencing when you become a mother because suddenly the worst case scenario becomes much worse. And suddenly you're imagining all these things that can happen. It's not just about you anymore, and I really appreciate the mothers that are able to put that out there and share that. So, that's what I really like about the play, and I think some people will be shocked by it. I think that some people will see it’s very unexpected what they think they're coming into. But I kind of like that. I think theater should kind of rock you a little bit. You know, if you're too comfortable and you forget about the show by the time you get dinner afterward, what's the point? That's what I think is so exciting about it. It's how unexpected it is. 

Rachel: Wow! I knew the connection with Mary Shelley but to hear you connect it to this piece - and knowing Mothers, it's so true - there's kind of a revolutionary act in shaking up the mother image, and often the truth is it that - when it happens - there's also a monster experience that happens in your body, around your body, and the world becomes a bit like a dream - almost a nightmare sometimes. I really see that connection now with the world shifting on us, and sometimes embracing that darkness is what's telling the deepest truths.

Roberta: And all of this is still in the “best case scenario,” right? We're talking about moms that still have a home and still have a network of support and all of that. 

Rachel: Right - this darkness is the privileged version. 

Roberta: Right. Exactly. And this is where the privilege comes in, and this is the part that I think is interesting, is that in [Mothers], essentially what Anna has done is she removed the privilege from these women who have lots of privilege (well, not all of them, but most of them). So I think that that's what's interesting too. When it’s just you and your kid, what kind of person are you going to be?

Rachel: Right. Who do you become? 

Roberta: I will say this, when I read the play, there's all these horrible things that happen, but it's even more horrific watching. I was like wow, it's pretty intense. So, I also will say that I don't think the play will be for everyone. In fact, there is a friend of mine who's a new mom, and I said, “honestly, I don't think you should see it. Yeah, I think you're going to have nightmares about it.” 

Rachel: So, it's a simultaneous appreciation - that there's a piece that's going to go there and really put some awe and violence up on the stage through the vehicle of motherhood. 

Roberta: And when we talked about the origin story of this, I do think it really challenges our understanding of identity as parents and society and what is stability and what is a good mom. These are questions that this play kind of rips to shreds, sometimes almost literally. And it’s also not for the faint of heart. 

Rachel: Tell me more about what you hope people walk away with when they see this piece. What's the next conversation piece or question you want someone to ask themselves, even if it's just a single line?

Roberta: I think that this [play] is for everybody - not just for parents. I think that this is the kind of show that makes you think about, “what if I was put in a similar situation” - and it’s not so absurd. There are people around the world that are going through similar situations there. And we hear awful things happen in this country. “What would be my last thought?” We were just having a conversation in tech yesterday with the actors about this, about when an event happens, like what each character’s “last thought” that goes through the brain? I think that that's an interesting conversation to have, because I feel, in a way, that's when you find out who you really are. When everything else is kind of ripped away, what is the essence - what is like the core of it. I am really interested in that conversation. I also think this show is a dystopian thing, like Margaret Atwood, in that world, you know what I mean. I think that's interesting because it's like it sometimes doesn't feel as far from my world as I wish it would feel. 

Rachel: I love that you mentioned, “It's not so absurd,” because in the comfort of the theater seats it's going to feel like a wild ride, but when we really take a look at it - like you're saying - there are nightmares happening every day that reflect what happens on the stage, and to a certain extent, I'm of the persuasion that part of our role is to present the challenge of who we would be in those situations – but that, in a way, feels absurd when we initially engage with it. The more we embrace it and suspend our disbelief, the more I think we'll start to see the similarities and the parallels with the kind of the horrors that are happening around the world and increase what we talked about earlier - that empathy. I'm really excited to see how audiences answer that question, “who would I be if that happened?” I would love to hear what you hope to take forward with you. I know that you're still early days with getting [the play] in the space and still early days with supporting the artists. What is one of the best areas of support or ways that you supported these individuals and parents and caregivers, and what do you hope to continue and take with you through other productions that you can share now?

Roberta: Part of what we have at our first rehearsal is that we talk a little bit about our values with the artists, and we're always fine-tuning that. And part of that conversation is going to be also that “we acknowledge that parenting and caretaking as an extra burden that can be placed on artists, so if there's anything we can do about it let us know,” because the thing that's amazing that I found in this production - that I have not had in other productions - is that people feel so free to talk about the challenges with their kids. I've been in tech a lot, and I've been hearing a parent talk about her daughter who wanted to quit karate or something, and then you and I dealing with another parent who's having childcare challenges and just trying to figure out how to work it out, and I was having a conversation yesterday with Anna, Robert [Ross Parker, director], and Shane [Rettig, sound design] about our children wanting to hurt us. I like that it was a normal conversation, but I was also thinking, “wow this is so cool. It's just like everybody feels it's OK to bring this part of yourself.” I feel like with parents there's a lot of shame. Even if people know you're a parent, you feel like you shouldn't call attention to it, you know? And I think, why not? Why? This a big part of my life. If I can't talk about this, I don't have much to talk about. That mentality would be the one thing I wanna take with me: making parent-artists feel comfortable. I want them to know that the door is open, and I want us to be the first ones to say "we're here for you to talk about it," so they don't feel like they're approaching this closed door. 

Rachel: Yes. That's genius. When I spoke with one of the researchers on the Wellesley Centers for Women study on Women Leadership in Resident Theatres, I asked her - and I mention this in a lot of interviews - “What do you recommend leaders do? What is the first thing that they can do?” And she said, “the first thing that any leadership can do is take the obligation of initiating conversation off the vulnerable individual who's been hired, or thinking about getting hired, and put it on the institution's obligation to start the conversation by saying we support you, what do you need?” and to ask it of all genders, all disciplines, so that there's no discrimination that can sometimes sneak in there. And so, your intuition in taking that principle and “saying this has changed our work culture” makes a difference. I agree. I think that I have seen more freedom and dialogue from parents engaging with you and with us on this process than I've seen in most of my interviews across the country, and their ability to come to you and say, “hey, this is a difficulty” and know that you're going to look them in the eye - that they still get to be dignified - and you will say, “well, let's see what we can do” can be life-changing, career-changing. 

Roberta: You know, it is more work at some point, because it's like, “oh my God, I have to figure this puzzle piece out,” right? But I would rather, as I said, have somebody feel like they have our support. And sometimes, it has happened, that we have gone to people, and I said, “listen, we can help you in this way, but we can't help you in that way” because at the same time that part of my job is still trying to support everybody, we also have this amazing play that we're putting on, and I want to make sure that I keep the integrity of that, for the playwright as well. So balancing those things can be challenging, but I feel like that's just my job. 

Rachel: Yes, well, I think you do it very well. And I know this is just the beginning of some really, really exciting access that you're helping pave the way - publicly - which is part of what makes it so radical. Could you please let us know now how people can get tickets and when the show is going up for those who are ready can dive into the new Frankenstein of motherhood?

Roberta: Yes! They can get tickets here, it’s playing right now through October 12th at the Duke on 42nd Street. 

What was the decision process when choosing Jonathan's play for production? What attracted you to it?

We are an open application organization—our process starts with asking people to submit to us. In our last submission period, we got close to 700 applications! Writers find us and we start relationships with them, and those relationships develop over time; it becomes clear which playwrights are the right fit for us and which plays and playwrights we can help the most—those who need our championing. Jonathan is all of those things. We started a relationship with him when he became a Writing Fellow in the 2015-16 cohort, and his writing really stood out – I am hopeful that we are doing it justice. I think that his voice is incredibly important to add to the American canon and I'm very proud to be supporting him.

Choosing a play for production never happens at one specific moment – it's a process. With Jonathan’s play, for instance, it involved figuring out when it was going to happen; Jonathan has a full-time job and was at Juilliard for two years. We could have done this play earlier, but we had to account for his time and meet his needs. Also, I often fall in love with more plays that we can produce [laughs], so again, I have to consider what makes the most sense when. What attracted me to Revolving Cycles is that Jonathan is such a keen observer of systems and he has a way of showing that non-didactically. The play has this very acute awareness of the nature of systemic oppression that I think is very smart - he makes fantastic use of theatrical convention, dark comedy, Brechtian ideas, alienation and a piercing of emotion. And it makes sense now - it's timely and definitely one of the more political plays that we have done.

The play tackles situations that mirror problems in our society: the difficult living conditions of many American inner cities, problems in the foster care system, the ways that institutionalized racism ensures that some people stay trapped in "revolving cycles." What was your approach in tackling those experiences from a producer's perspective?

This play is very much about the black experience and we worked hard to put together a talented team that really included that perspective.  Our design team, for instance, is a great group, with more than 50% of them being people of color. In the rehearsal room, I'm one of the few white people! I think that is an amazing thing. As one of those people, I'm aware that this is an experience that people of color often have, but white people seldom do. I wanted to be self-aware and let that experience exist; I tried to not change the tenor of the room, being aware of how much I speak or trying not to take up too much space. It is interesting being a dramaturg on this play because I think being a dramaturg can be regarded as a position of privilege—dramaturgs bring information and knowledge to the process—but here I was a dramaturg who has not lived through the experiences tackled in the play and I was working with many people who did have more firsthand knowledge of these issues. I have done a lot of reading over the past few years while working on this play in order to feel that I have the knowledge base to even attempt to enter that space as a dramaturg.

We have also really tried to frame the experience for our audience in certain ways. Some of that is for audiences of color – we have thought a lot about the trigger warnings we create, either explicitly stated or by providing ways for people to get more information. But we also put information in the program to frame the play in a larger context; we include facts and figures to help audience members understand the lives of people whose experiences might be very different from theirs. One of the great things about Jonathan’s play is the focus on the characters and the story, which I think is the best way that the theater can influence people—through experiencing another person's story.

The Revolving Cycles is the latest play by a former Realm Writing Fellow to be chosen for production. How would you compare the two experiences, Writing Fellowship and Page One Production, in terms of the impact they have on the playwrights?

Our Writing Fellowship is one of my favorite programs. We spend nine months with our fellows, helping them to get a script ready for the stage. We have had an amazing track record of helping these plays go on to be productions – I am really proud of the number fellows who have gone onto have successful careers. We have a professional development track to the Fellowship which is very dependent on what the fellows interests are (for example, if people want to work in television, we bring in television writers to talk to the group, or people to talk about self-producing for groups interested in that, etcetera). We try to help them in any and all of their career goals.

The Page One Program is also comprehensive - not just a production, but a residency. Besides producing a play, we offer our playwrights help in finding industry connections, developing new work and we give them health insurance. Even during the production, we are not just focused on putting a play up, but also on launching the writer's careers—we invite key artistic figures at regional theaters to come see the show and pay for their travel expenses, because we feel that the production of a show is the best way to become interested in someone's work.

Jonathan is the second black playwright and the fifth writer of color to be produced by The Realm (out of 13 produced playwrights). This year alone, Donja R. Love and Ione Lloyd, former Realm Writing Fellows, are getting produced in New York, and next season, Mfoniso Udofia will get a new production in the city as well. Could you talk more about The Realm's commitment to all voices?

The Playwrights Realm is committed not just to creating the next generation of playwrights, but also to being reflective of the community in which we live– America in general, and New York City in particular. This is something we consider not just with playwrights, but in all of the areas in which we hire. One of the many reasons I feel this is important is that theater should hold a mirror up to the world; if you are not presenting it accurately, you are warping the image. As a white woman, I can't fully understand the effect of not seeing yourself on the stage or of not having your voice represented, but as a woman, I do understand it somewhat. Women are not fully represented in important roles – in terms of the amount that they get to speak, and the roles that they are put in. When you talk about people of color, disabled people or queer people, it's exponentially worse, and the effects are even bigger. There's the saying, “if you can see it, you can dream it” – if you cannot see yourself, then it's as if society is shunning you, that your choices are not acceptable choices, your values are not valued, your life is not important.

I want The Realm to be a place that honors different ideas and that addresses some problematic trends by working affirmatively to put other voices forward. We want to challenge ideas of who gets to tell what story, what deserves to be on stage, and who gets to work in theater.

Thank you, Katherine!

What attracted you to Revolving Cycles? Did it seem like a natural fit to your style, or more of a new challenge?

I've lived in many places and experienced a large variety of communities and places. Something that has always attracted me in a story is the question of who are we, how are we shaped by the world around us and what are the patterns that persist across state and country borders – especially when we consider the structures that have been instituted to organize the world and to intentionally allow some people to thrive and some to have to navigate ridiculous systems. There are physical and social borders that have been set up and they largely dictate the way we move through the world. 

Jonathan tackles that head on. His exploration of these forces, these "cycles," doesn't ignore the individual, but puts numerous stories inside one community front and center. Who is Karma? What part of her identity is uniquely hers and what was shaped by her circumstances? And the same goes for all the other characters. Are they really greedy, selfish, helpful, kind - or are they just surviving? Who are we? The question is fascinating, and more than that, essential for a modern-day audience.

Revolving Cycles can be small and deeply personal, but also sprawling, big enough to encompass the spirit of a whole city. Without spoiling anything, how would you describe the directing choices you're making? What are the elements you're leaning on?

Jonathan beautifully created this play against the backdrop of "revolving cycles," the forces and history that have created our fictional city of the Oblong. But then the way he actually executes it is in a series of scenes with only two or three people in it, which to me is so interesting. So coming into the rehearsal room, or talking to the designers, my approach was: What happens when you put two people, who might not ordinarily be in a room together? The play is about the nature of ensemble and community, but we’re guided by the idea of isolation inside a community.

People are going to walk out of this play with thoughts - it's inevitable! What do you want to communicate to them? What would you wish their conversations tackled?

I think we're in a time when people are feeling forced to have a strong opinion, to choose between two sides, and I think the beauty of this play (and any great piece of theater) is that it makes you have to negotiate the messiness in between. There's no one way to understand this play, really. There's a part of the audience that's gonna walk out thinking about the detective story - how do they put the pieces together? How do they understand the journey? And then there's another part that's gonna walk out thinking about the revolving cycles - what are the structures that shape America? What makes us into the society we are? And both (and any other) are right!

More than anything though, amidst the messiness, these are tremendous characters and people. Their lives are deeply shaped by the cruel and absurd history of America as well as the perseverance of the human spirit - and if we’ve created characters on stage that people can empathize with and even love deeply, but also with whom they might fiercely disagree, I think we’ll have done justice to Jonathan’s incredible play.

Thank you, Awoye! Break a leg!

Tell us a little bit of where this play came from!

There was an item in the news, about this community in Ohio, I think, where there was an overwhelming number of women missing and the police just weren't helping out, so the people took the law into their own hands and went looking for them. That seemed wildly interesting to me. Also, I have a day job as a social worker (or should I say, pseudo-social worker - I don't have a degree), where I spend my time helping people navigate structures that corner them, situations in which they don't have things (food, shelter, etc). I'm compelled to examine these structures, the ones that decide who's poor and who's rich, who's homeless and who's sheltered, who is found and who remains missing.

How does your journalistic background influence your writing?

I first started writing - creative writing - as a kid, but my mother eventually pushed me to find a sort of writing that would make me money [laughs], so I became a journalist. When I came back to fiction, I brought over that journalistic mindset of looking for every angle, hearing every story. When I do research for my plays, all these different points of view come up, and I try to be true to them on the page. Even in rehearsal, it's been so interesting to see how each member of the team comes in with their own background, how the text brings up different experiences for them.

Let's talk about the protagonist, Karma. What attracted you to her as a protagonist?

I've dabbled in acting as well as writing, and I found out that I would usually get cast a secondary character, someone wacky who'd come in and do one big scene and then never show up in the play again. I wanted to write a play for one of those characters. And I think I also I wanted to challenge people's notions of what the play should be. I think it would be very easy to come in and just experience the story, experience Karma's journey, and then forget it by the time you get home. But, taking a page from Brecht, I had Karma (and a few other characters) literally reach out to the audience, include them in the play. Karma's journey, which in another play would be sidelined, it's front and center here - and the audience is very much a part of it.

There's arguably a second protagonist, Terrell - a human-sized hole at the center of the play. Why build a story around the absence of someone?

One of the things that really upset me when doing research is seeing how little attention missing people of color get in the news. It's hard for me to recall any specific names, whereas if you think of white people - specifically, white girls - we have JonBenet Ramsey, Elizabeth Smart, all the famous examples. In a way, the driver of the play was to shine a light on missing people of color, who are statistically less likely to be found, and the structures that keep them missing.

Once people leave the theater, they are bound to talk about the play - no spoilers, but it's almost impossible not to have a reaction to it. What do you hope those conversations look like?

I think, for white audiences, there'll be a discomfort in being included in a play about poverty, our relationship to it and, to a point, our responsibility towards it, or the roles we play in sustaining the structures that keep people in poverty. For black audiences, there might be a mirroring experience, or opening the door to nuanced discussions about their experiences - they can amen, find themselves, find family members. What I'd hope for is that the conversation happens not just inside both camps, but between them!

Thanks, Jonathan, break a leg in rehearsal!