#gwarry

how it starts

so much has been made about how death loves gwen stacy, and gwen's reclaimed this by taking on a second life as ghost-spider, but harry... has not. death loves harry too, and at this point it's more likely for him to end up permadead in a continuity than for her to. we don't really talk about that.

especially when you consider that gwen stacy and harry osborn having a relationship in the first place completely depends on if gwen's lost her mother. in every timeline where helen stacy doesn't die (including the ones where she abandons the stacy family), gwen and harry never become close in the first place. and the 2020 gwen stacy miniseries following gwen-616 all but confirms why: the basis of their friendship is harry bonding with gwen after her mother dies, which he directly relates to due to his own mother's death. their first conversation is about their dead moms. their first shared activity is going to see a zombie movie. the entire backbone of their dynamic is death. it's where they always start. it's where they almost always end.

the friendship

and this friendship is frankly deeper and more personal than any other platonic friendship gwen has-- including with mj. if gwen goes to standard high, where she meets and befriends harry, then she's known him since high school, which makes them the oldest friends of the coffee bean gang (and it's possible gwen was harry's only friend at standard high). even when gwen goes to horizon (17628) or midtown, if harry's in the student body, it's never long before they find each other. and in every world where they both attend standard and peter never meets them, they become inseparably close.

harry and gwen have a deep sense of understanding, trust and history built on shared family experiences (gwen has never discussed her mother with mj or peter-- who has his own dead parent trauma-- but she will with harry; she's also the first person harry confides to about his father). they also have shared interests and earnestly love each other's company. they go to class together, they go to work together. in 616, they party together and hang out at the coffee bean all afternoon; in 65a, they play d&d together; in 17628, they're nerding out in the lab together.

what's especially interesting is that harry's fortunes are directly tied to gwen's. whenever gwen's popular, he is too. whenever gwen's a nerd, he's at the loser's table with her. when gwen decides to befriend peter, harry follows her lead (616, 65a). wherever gwen goes to college, he's always there with her, taking similar classes if not in the same program. when gwen becomes a villain or vigilante while he's alive and a presence in her life, he's usually by her side in a supporting role or as a partner. when she dies, he's not long to follow. when she lives, he lasts longer. they have a very us-against-the-world kind of loyalty.

unlike gwen, harry osborn doesn't have particularly strong goals or ambitions for his future; his main aspiration in life is to loved and approved of. by his father most of all, but also by his friends, notably gwen. therefore it follows that harry spends high school and college following her, and as his oldest and possibly only friend, gwen is so important to him that he's willing to reshape his life to stay near her, and he is comfortable letting her take control of the relationship dynamic and steer them where she wants to go.

and being close to gwen is sincerely good for harry; continuities where gwen stays close to him through college (as opposed to peter) tend to lead to harry not succumbing to his addiction, probably because gwen's usually capable of getting him to stay on the wagon (and he's comfortable decompressing about his dad with her). when she's his closest friend and peter is absent, he tends to make it to a high-powered career that she most likely steered him to. gwen is a source of support and stability to harry.

... but she's also a source of stagnation. she can comfort him about his father, but she never encourages him to stand up to or leave him.

harry in turn is supportive of gwen's interests and goals. if she's running for class president, he's her campaign manager. if she's partying, he's hyping her up. if she's wearing a dumb outfit, he'll compliment her. if she's a superhero, he's at her side in battle or supporting her from a distance. if she's leading oscorp, he defers to her business judgments.

gwen-65a even confirms that harry's keeping her anchored to reality (which she had a front seat to, seeing how gwen-3109 immediately loses her mind clinically when her harry dies). not-so-coincidentally, as soon as he's out of the picture when he goes into a coma, gwen loses her grip on her world and never gets it back.

... however. harry isn't necessarily good for gwen. the downside to him being willing to follow her is that he may accept her flaws and support her ambitions, but he doesn't challenge her to be a better person or call her out on her bad behavior. when she's a superhero, that means he's her rock. when she's a civilian, that means he's the stone weighing her down that she won't let go of to be a better person.

gwen's meaner, more selfish side is indulged by him; if she's the popular girl, he's her minion who eggs her on as she bullies peter (and probably other students too). and continuities where peter never attends university with them tend to lead to gwen going into a career at oscorp, likely because of harry offering her a place there, where she immediately gets her hands dirty with their unethical business and scientific practices. in other words, if gwen never encounters peter and becomes a kinder person through knowing him, she's on a track that's leading her towards villainy.

(... and if gwen had lived, gotten to leave peter for good, and her hatred of spider-man were allowed to go somewhere, one has to assume she would've become a supervillain just like harry. probably with harry, who shares that hate.)

anytime gwen wants to improve as a person, she has to connect with and prioritize people who aren't harry, like in 616/617 (where meeting peter and mj in college makes gwen a kinder friend), 3109 (the one time associating with oscorp doesn't lead to gwen's morals decaying is the one where mj and peter are their coworkers), and 1610/65a/8 (where being friends in high school with peter and mj leads to gwen becoming a punk who punches out bullies).

if she does, it's possible to inspire harry to rise to her level, like befriending people he'd otherwise ignore (616/617, 65a/8) or becoming a vigilante (3109). but gwen always has to take the first step, because their relationship has a clear power dynamic where gwen is dominant and harry takes his cues from her. if she starts expanding her horizons, he'll follow the leader.

(though when gwen and harry are vigilantes together, most of the time it ends in him dying (3109), becoming incapacitated (65a/8) or turning villain on her (1074). he has a lower survival rate than even gwen.)

it should be noted: because gwen's in control of the dynamic and maintains her agency in their relationship, if she corrupts, it's because she decided to become a worse person. harry doesn't make gwen worse, he just doesn't encourage her to be better; if gwen fell to the dark side, it's because she jumped, not because he pushed her.

the romance

with their friendship being deeply intimate, it follows that they often become a couple. 9/17 continuities on the map involve gwen dating harry at some point. so, about half the time they give it a try.

and harry's quite clear about carrying a torch for her. he makes his affection for her known and makes the first move in most of those continuities (616/617, 1074, 26496, 65a/8). he also isn't particularly jealous if she pursues or has feelings for other people. the vibe with harry's that he just wants to be close to her in any way he can, and sometimes that affection presents itself romantically because he thinks it's expected of him.

however, harry's almost always a second choice or lesser priority to gwen-- after all, she's into conventionally-attractive men in uniform who are protectors by nature, rebellious outsiders, and girls, and harry's a stringy rich boy with the ugliest widow's peak imaginable who isn't particularly compassionate to anyone who isn't in his social circle. harry just isn't gwen's type. (the notable exception being 65a, where harry absorbs flash thompson's enlistment storyline, and gwen only seems romantically interested in him after he comes back from working with shield.)

but she's willing to try him out anyway if she doesn't have any of her usual options, because gwen in many universes feels an immense pressure to have a boyfriend, even if she has to settle. their romance is more companionate than sexual and most likely grows out of pragmatism and familiarity; they've always had a very 'if we're still single by thirty let's just marry each other' vibe. we're not beating the lavender marriage allegations but at least they're on the same page.

[if gwen had not died in 616 and been able to leave peter permanently, it absolutely feels like she and harry would have ended up together-- notice how harry keeps going for business blondes, like lily hollister (it was his clone that time, but still) or liz allan especially? it feels like harry's using them as proxies for a relationship he wishes he could have had with gwen-- see earth 6160, where they never meet peter and mj in college and are an evil power couple together.]

and when they do become seriously involved, like in 6160 or 21798, gwen typically assumes a high-powered position in the same industry as harry, like ceo of oscorp or future politician's wife. they never have children (but might make vague gestures towards doing it someday; it's that comphet), and maintain that dynamic they had as friends: gwen stabilizes and provides focus to harry, he supports her ambition, they circle the drain together.

but every single time gwen and harry are a couple, it ends in tragedy. like, they have a lower success rate than petergwen or gwiles.

most of the time, if they date, they break up permanently after a short period of time, because gwen loses interest in him quickly or finds someone else she likes better.

if they stay together, it almost always ends in gwen's death (616, 26496), harry becoming comatose (65a/8, 21798), or there's an implication of future violence to come (6160's heavily foreshadowing this; 18157, being a world where peter's spider-man exists, almost certainly means his conflict with harry will occur, with harry's implied future romance with ghost-spider therefore being automatically doomed).

(even 65a harry/gwen's first date starts with a gift of lilies. a funeral flower. naturally everything goes to shit immediately.)

there is no timeline where gwen and harry end up together and live happily. which does follow. if you end up in a relationship where you and your partner don't help each other become better people, that in and of itself isn't a happy ending.

gwen's upbringing pretty much primed her to jump from middle class to wealthy, and sticking by harry earns her that status, especially if she marries him. this is the hope gwen's family (particularly her mother) had for her future, realized. this is not a good thing.

and gwen's ambition and drive are qualities harry's father wishes harry has. part of his attraction to gwen and dependency on her likely stems from hoping that if he attaches himself to someone with the qualities he lacks, norman might finally approve of him. this is also not a good thing.

(harrygwen is a lot like gwiles in this way: both harry and miles provide gwen with a high level of prestige and status, and are drawn to her because she has the qualities that will appease the shitty people they feel pressured to seek approval from... when what they all really need is to let go of that insecurity entirely. and similarly they're at opposite ends of a spectrum -- gwen and harry have little physical chemistry but a deep emotional bond; it's unattractive but complex. gwen and miles have no real emotional connection but he sure is attracted to her, she's kinda iffy about him and they look hot together; it's aesthetically pleasing but shallow-- with peter sitting in the middle as the romance that equals the emotional intensity and physical chemistry).

occasionally, the violent implosion is an external factor (65a/8's harry is rendered comatose by a bombing at gwen's concert).

sometimes the violence comes from harry (26496's harry-gwen romance is noticeably unhealthy, with harry behaving possessively towards gwen, who, to be fair, is pining after peter and settling for harry). most often, it comes from his father, either through norman directly harming gwen or damaging harry's psyche so deeply that he inflicts violence on himself, gwen or them both. it always gets in, because the same way he doesn't prevent gwen from becoming a colder, more selfish person, harry allows it to. he wants his father's approval so badly that he's willing to sacrifice gwen and himself to get it.

about harry's dad

most infamously, gwen's killed by the green goblin, who is usually harry's father (... but sometimes harry, like in 20703). and harry frequently self-destructs due to a combination of drug use, mental illness, and harmful behavior he learned from his father. both harry and gwen are victimized by the same man.

(idk man it's always seemed like peter should take a backseat to letting harry and gwen beat norman up but maybe it's just me)

harry's a naturally sensitive, nervous, caring boy who likes to let other people take the lead and is happy to support them. his father hates this. he wants his son to be as aggressive, domineering and manipulative as he is, so he can pass on the family wealth, holdings and status to a worthy heir.

and harry loves his dad as much as he hates him. he wants to believe his dad's secretly a good, misunderstood man. he's afraid of disappointing him and doesn't like leaving him alone with his friends (particularly gwen) because deep down, he knows he isn't. and gwen knows about this because harry has told her... and possibly exposed her to it because their relationship puts her in proximity with norman.

... to get to the elephant in the room, the retconned storyline of sins past (where norman 'has an affair with' rapes a teenage gwen, impregnates her, and his murder of her is to cover up this crime) still casts an enormous shadow over gwen, norman and harry. in 616, norman is still depicted to this day as pervy with gwen. it may not be canon that norman impregnated her anymore, but it is canon that he’s creeping on her trying to take advantage of her while she's grieving her mom. this is when she's about 15 years old by the way.

like. this comic came out in 2024. it's real clear what norman's implying and why harry's rushing to get her out of that apartment.

it was retconned but we are so not past this. in 616, in other places. spider-gwen constantly fends off villains who have a sexual interest in her, and nightbird gwen of 21798's backstory is full of implied rape (including by norman, who in that continuity is her ex-boyfriend's dad).

now i know it's never explored, but... alright, there's another layer to the tragedy of gwen and harry's dynamic and it starts here: the timeframes of harry's downward spiral into addiction/mental illness and gwen's sexual abuse (assuming it happens/isn't retconned) would have overlapped.

like. imagine the guilt of realizing your abusive dad did that shit to your best friend/girlfriend, and she was only near him in the first place because she was there for you. i'd shoot up too.

(and add onto that the psychosexual fuckery of hating your dad but also wanting to be him and learning that this man, who looks exactly like you, had a '... relationship' with someone you're attracted to and want for yourself. there's a lot there.)

and finding out your abusive dad murdered your oldest friend? yeah. we don't talk about that enough. (and neither do the spider-man writers. come on now.)

(tangent: last i checked the latest writer retcon of sins past is 'harry spliced gwen and norman's dna together to make their biological children' and... honestly that's worse. it's more ooc for harry to desecrate his closest friend's corpse and make clonebabies out of her and his dad, and construct an elaborate fantasy about his dad raping his friend who he was kinda attracted to to torment her then-boyfriend who was also his friend, than for his abusive, misogynistic dad to... be abusive and misogynistic to a girl he has access to and power over. it's simpler and it makes more sense, which is why the abuse still bleeds into their interactions to this day.)

how it ends

death. literal or metaphorical. gwen and harry keep fucking dying. whether they're a couple, friends, or even complete strangers, they keep falling into the same tragic patterns that end in their deaths.

and even in death, they're linked: peter parker is usually culpable to some degree. in 616 gwen's death even occurs around the same time harry's health takes a nose dive, and several times, they die in each others' presence.

gwen and harry love each other. they have fun together. they keep each other's secrets, they understand each other's situations, they shape their lives around each other. but in isolation, this dynamic is only going to lead them off a cliff because both harry and gwen are dealing with the same problem: they're faced with reenacting the sins of their parents... and they both tempt each other to follow through with it.

to get political about it, gwen and harry are being pressured to align with the traditional structure of white, wealthy, hetero patriarchy and what it demands of the men and women it wants to elevate: it wants white men to be active, aggressive, domineering assholes who advance its system through violence and subjugation, and white women to be their passive, unassuming, supportive helpmeets who perpetuate it through their quiet complicity in exchange for the illusion of protection and special treatment. their arcs involve them coming into conflict with this status quo, and whenever it ends badly, it's because they can't let go of the outdated expectations being pushed on them, even when those expectations will kill them.

harry's ultimate test as a character is about disowning his father. it's about accepting the sensitivity that was always used as justification to harm him, and either standing up to his dad directly or walking away from what he represents for new connections with other people who can help him with his problems. it's about letting go of the need to reinforce violent patriarchy for the sake of advancing a Man's Legacy, and embracing a supportive role in his friends' lives. if harry lets others in and lets them help him, and owns that he's been wounded and traumatized, he'll live and maybe become a hero (see earth 65a, at least in the latour run). if he can't, he'll descend into addiction and self-implode as he becomes as much of a villain as his father.

gwen's ultimate test as a character is about realizing the system she's been raised to support is corrupt and going to kill her, and standing up against it even if it means losing her comfort. it's about recognizing that the men in her life won't actually protect and provide for her (including harry), and that the status she's been raised to desire can only be given to her if she ignores, tolerates or perpetuates abuse and corruption. if she chooses her independence and decides to take a stand against those systems, she'll live and become a hero. if she doesn't, she'll die, likely through being fridged outright, or become a villain that is inherently disposable compared to her male peers (which means, inevitably, she'll be killed off in the end).

their friendship is already one step in the right direction: harry has someone he can be vulnerable with, and gwen has someone who supports her ambitions and defers to her.

however, that's as far as they can go alone, because left to their own devices, they will stagnate into the people their parents want them to be, since they can't challenge each other to be anything different (especially if they become a couple). remember gwen's reaction to learning about norman being an abuser? it's a microcosm of the issue with their dynamic: they help each other get through the situation, when what they really need to do is get out.

you can’t girlboss your way through a patriarchal relationship dynamic because even if he’s cool with you having agency, the patriarch he answers to will always seep in and sabotage your efforts (same issue as gwiles; miles admires gwen, but his attraction to her is fundamentally rooted in seeing her as either a tool to gain the approval of white society, or a trophy for doing so). it's them against the world, but the world will always win.

(like, to put it in perspective, harry lands about here in the spectrum of gwen's canon romances. he's better for her than peter or miles in terms of agency, but not so much in terms of morality or mortality.)

they don't have to leave each other behind. they just have to recognize that they can't be the most important people in each other's lives anymore. if they open up and let other people who aren't like them in, (... who aren't lonely rich white kids,) who can challenge their worldviews and inspire them to change, they can take another step forward.

the final step is out of their hands. it's if that change sets in and stays--if spider-man canon makes room for that change and embraces it; if gwen's independence isn't sabotaged to make her The Girlfriend again, and harry isn't sent into a toxicity relapse to fuel someone else's angst. if that happens, maybe then gwen and harry can get to a better place and stay there. (earth 65a being the best example so far, at least in the latour run.)

gwen and harry's relationship starts with death and ends with death. but death doesn't always have to be a bad thing: instead of letting that zombie of a status quo infect them, they need to let it die, to make room for something new.