#guest reactors

MIRI:

Kris, you’re such a tease with your “I have thoughts on x but I want your thoughts first” moments. I’m dying to hear your Janet questions now. My thoughts (other than the general state of being insanely impressed by the performance and enjoying the hell out of the character) mostly have to do with her being the most advanced Janet in the universe. If that level of improvement is possible, why not just start them all out at a high level? Is the human interaction necessary? I am super excited for Janet’s slightly more nuanced decision making processes—her loyalty being to the 4 humans, etc.—while remaining a character with no motivation of her own.

In thinking about Eleanor’s meanness this episode I started thinking about how Tahani’s sister is a way worse person than her (she’s the wooooooorst and I hope you all heard that in Jean-Ralphio Saperstein’s voice). And that leads me to the fact that none of our four are actually terrible people. Eleanor is arguably the worst and she wasn’t THAT bad. She wasn’t great and she was a total dirtbag, but there have been a lot of dramatically worse people in history. Chidi was a good person. He caused some distress, sure, but again—nothing compared to a lot of people. Tahani helped a TON of people and her bad true intentions were selfish, not cruel. Jason was mostly just very very unintelligent. So why are these four being tortured? And why are they being specially tortured? Did they need close-to-medium people to be able to sell the ruse? Does everyone who is not an extremely Good person automatically get the same level of torture, or are there degrees? I think they’re definitely going to explore how absurd that kind of binary system of morality is further and I’m looking forward to it! Does anyone buy Michael’s whole “Maybe we’ll all earn our way into the Good Place” spiel? Does anyone think HE buys it?

This is 100% influenced by the fact that I’m thinking about Star Trek: Discovery, but I would love to see Michelle Yeoh as a Good Place figure. When I say 100% I mean it—I fully admit that I haven’t seen any of her other work (I KNOW! I’m working on it! I have seen the light, I promise!) but she can clearly do wisdom and also have fun with it, which I think is an important skill for this show. Although, do we think Good Place officials will be nice people? They’re part of this fairly brutal system—are they just as ruthless as their counterparts, but more pleasant about it? What do you guys think?

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(I lie, I have seen Michelle Yeoh in SUNSHINE and MEMOIRS OF A GEISHA too.)

ADAM:

I can't remember which one of you spoke about Janet remembering anything with every reboot, but you were correct. However, I think that while she remembers everything she is still a robot that is ruled by binary thinking, (yes/no, right/wrong) and therefore does not realize that sometimes there is a grey area. Remember, she is only helping because her main directive is to help humans. I think that her memories of everything are what is going to be this team's inevitable downfall. I think the Good Place people are solely logical and see everything black and white. I don't think there is any kind of wiggle room on their point system. I imagine that the Good Place board of directors is operated by essentially a supreme court style of Vulcans. No emotion, just facts, and figures. 

Also, I wouldn't classify Eleanor and Co. as the worst. I would look at them all as selfish instead of just bad people. With Eleanor, it's always about what is the easiest thing for her or what she can gain from a situation. This show deals more about the selfish in people than just plain nastiness. I don't think anyone has mentioned that Tahani's sister is in fact actually in the real Good Place. Or did they? Need to go back and look into it. I do like they gave Tahani more time this episode. 

I doubt Michael buys his speech to the gang of flesh bags. Mainly because he so desperately wants his way to work and to stand out amongst the Bad Place HOF that he is willing to do anything that he can to survive. 

KRIS:

Honestly my “I have thoughts on x but I want your thoughts first” moments are mostly to keep myself from rambling for 500 more words. I figure I'm not the only one who has the thoughts I have, so I don't have to be the one to say them. In this case, I am also kind of confused about the design decisions behind Janet's social improvement. To Adam's point, I didn't get the impression that she's retaining information; I read it more as a Jason Bourne-type thing where she retains the skills but not any knowledge that goes with them. Or at least, that's the interpretation that makes the most sense to me. I don't know that the text supports it. Janet says that she just gets better with every reboot, not that she gets better over time because her experiences are cumulative. (Her line about not being able to lie is what I think will come back around to bite Team Cockroach.) Maybe the design idea was that the neighborhoods should sort of run on autopilot with as little active help as possible, and reboots essentially send the message that a neighborhood needs more help, so Janet is incrementally improved, like a video game suggesting that you lower the difficulty level after you've died a zillion times. This still doesn't really explain the extra-dumb, extra-strange post-reset Janet of last season, but maybe we can handwave that by saying that the neighborhood as a whole is supposed to be reset with her, and there's some indeterminate rest period between each version during which the "shut down" Janet re-"downloads" All the Knowledge in the Universe.

I think Michael is being more or less honest, but also that he has no idea if his plan will work. It's just that there are no good options. This is as good an excuse as any to trot out: "You can't, but you have to. Logically, you shouldn't, but you have no choice. I mean I wouldn't, if I were you. It's a crazy thing to do. But you gotta.”

I wonder if the answer to our questions about the absurdly harsh point system is something along the lines that the people who run the Good and Bad Places were not really cosmically appointed by a supreme moral authority, and instead it's all rooted in a bunch of elaborate afterlife political gamesmanship. In any case I've never really gotten the impression that our four were singled out for who they are; it's Michael who's an outlier, because he wanted to try his new thing. Something I thought was interesting and cool in the season 1 finale is that Chidi and Tahani are in the Bad Place for opposite reasons. Chidi had the best of intentions (deontological plus), but never did anything good in his life because of his indecision (utilitarian minus); and Tahani did an incredible amount of good (utilitarian plus), but for the wrong reasons (deontological minus). Eleanor did bad things and had bad, or at least mediocre, intentions. I guess Jason could be here because he just made a lot of people unhappy in the course of being the biggest idiot in Florida? Plus all the property damage. And I feel like at some point he said he was a drug dealer?

Adam, who would your ideal special guest star from the real Good Place be? I'd kind of love to see Alison Becker (Parks's Shauna Malwae-Tweep) or Kathryn Hahn show up. Really my first choice is Terry Crews, in a suit, singing Vanessa Carlton, but that feels particularly unlikely. Beyond the Schur-verse, I'll say... maybe Vella Lovell from Crazy Ex-Girlfriend? I don't know, this is harder than I thought.

MIRI:

Yeah, the more we talk about it the more sure I am that whoever runs the Good Place is not a nice/kind/moral being. I realize this is utter folly, but do you guys think we’ll see the Good Place by the end of this season? I definitely think we’ll see someone from the Good Place, but I’m not sure about an actual journey there.

I think there’s an argument to be made that Eleanor and Jason are in a way complimentary in the reasons they’re in the Bad Place. Eleanor knew her actions were bad but didn’t actively want to hurt people, she just didn’t care enough to let that stop her. Jason didn’t understand that he was causing harm, but did without giving any thought to it. Chidi and Tahani both tried to do good (unsuccessfully and for the wrong reasons, as Kris pointed out), while Eleanor and Jason didn’t try at all. I guess as far as Team Cockroach is concerned it’s a real damned if you do, damned if you don’t situation. 

ADAM:

I guess if we are applying phrases to team cockroach: The enemy of my enemy is my friend, well that's what Michael thinks at least. I doubt we will see the actual Good Place ever during the series. Maybe keep it as this mythical land that no can ever achieve to get to, or something to that extent. I think we will see GP representatives. And to answer your question Kris about who I would like to be a GP rep. There is only one right answer to that. Amy Poehler.

I feel like most shows would have had Jane stay at Scarlet, right?

MIRI: I'm honesty shocked they followed through on Tine Jane leaving Scarlet, but only because it's not what I've come to expect from a show

Yes, exactly!

(Kris always beats me to the punch by had a second and it drives me crazy)

KRIS: Oh Tiny Jane

I hope there’s a supercut out there of every “Tiny Jane”

MIRI: Hey call her that more than once an ep at this point and I love it every time

KRIS: (Is it always Kat?)

MIRI: *they

It might be, I don't know

CANDICE: Most shows would have Jane stay! And likely compromise the other characters' ...well, character.

MIRI: Nice

CANDICE: I feel like I've heard Sutton say it before?

MIRI: And the Sutton/Alex thing wrapped up so quickly! That could have been drawn out waaay long and painfully

KRIS: Yeah, I was pleasantly surprised Jane wasn’t much more of The Lead

I did not expect a reconciliation with Richard! Although maybe I should have?

CANDICE: I'm just gonna say it, wrong or right, Meghann Fahy had comedic chops and I love her.

KRIS: Sutton was my FAVORITE

K: To be fair, I was predisposed to like her because she’s also a minor character in Miss Sloane

MIRI: It's a nice example of the pilot belonging to one, but being a true trifecta

KRIS: The BEST reaction shots

CANDICE: Totally!

MIRI: I love them all too much to pick for more than an episode!!!

Fahy plays drunk and high amazingly, btw

CANDICE: Heard a rumor they went down to the wire with how everyone would "end up".

Unpopular opinion? I didn't like how things wrapped with Richard and Alex.

KRIS: She also squeezed in a lot of, like, emotional micro-beats, if that makes sense? Like in episode 3 or 4 when she’s giving Kat a hard time about texting with Adena

MIRI: Yes! I've heard that they shot multiple options

Candice, you don't want them together? Or just not so easily?

CANDICE: I'm not a true shipper of either, but I didn't want the Alex thread to be so quickly tied up.

KRIS: It did seem abrupt

Did we think Alex had a personality? Allison Shoemaker at the AV Club did not

MIRI: Hmmmmm

CANDICE: Yes, Kris, Sutton brings this great piece of heart that can be so often dragged along a drama or comedy to the point of making the character "flighty" or "ditzy" but Sutton is not.

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Alex had... drive... and was cute. He felt a little used by the plot.

Guys, love triangles are harrrrrd.

KRIS: (I hit return too soon earlier; the moment I was getting to was that when Kat is texting in the fashion closet, Sutton’s line is “Really?” but the button on the scene was Sutton immediately posing for a selfie with Kat)

MIRI: Yeah, I liked him better as a friend than as a love intersect

CANDICE: Lol

KRIS: Miri’s autocorrect hates her sometimes

MIRI: God dammit

CANDICE: Yeah, Miri! And there's nothing to say he might turn into something more later. 

HAA oh no!

KRIS: I really liked Alex and Jane’s friend dynamic and that almost entirely fell off once the love triangle started

CANDICE: But on the surface, it just felt like "welp, here's another office romance, kiddies! Enjoy! They're doomed!"

MIRI: (Also I'm logged out of iMessage on my computer and I don't know how to fix it, so I'm on phone)

M: I did eventually fix it, but please feel free to continue to blame all my errors on this

CANDICE: Oh! Hadn't tuned into that, Kris! Yep

Gah~

MIRI: That is SO true 

They let two cool friend dynamics go for one romance

Boo

I did like how he handled the ending of it, though 

CANDICE: And look, I love that Richard says he should have done more, but their office romance was already becoming a huge risk. 

MIRI: Yes! And now there's even more risk

CANDICE: Fighting for Sutton may have put him in the stairwell when Jacqueline walks in and that - does not bring about the same reaction and chill-ness she had with Alex. I don't think.

KRIS: For sure

MIRI: Definitely!

CANDICE: I could go on for days about that ^^ 

MIRI: And now there's no plausible deniability

About which aspect of that, Candice?

CANDICE: Balancing work relationships. 

It's worth addressing because they DO happen. And treat it as a segue, if you will, bringing intimacy/sex into the workplace isn't always Richard and Sutton.

*cough* Jacqueline's story

MIRI: Her story knocked me sideways

I was pretty sure that was where it was going and it still was SO effective

KRIS: Yeah, same, it was pretty clearly telegraphed but the blocking and everything of that moment was amazing

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MIRI: And her FACE

Just so good

CANDICE: She never felt out of character, in pushing Jane, but I had a feeling when J seemed so emotionally involved in her encouragement that this was more than losing a writer to Incite.

MIRI: It’s really really good writing and acting

CANDICE: Maybe it was getting a story right for readers she KNEW could hold many survivors.

But then we see truly why and it's near devastating

Y'all Melora Hardin is perfect for this character.

MIRI: It’s also a version of the story we don’t see often--someone years later, thriving but definitely still impacted

CANDICE: I watch for her just as much as our trifecta. She's compelling and much more than a boss to me.

MIRI: I LOVE her

CANDICE: Certainly! And not the story, too, of going for #alloutrevenge #diebastards

MIRI: Right--it’s not about the man/men. It’s about her

KRIS: I’m a sucker for good mentor characters

MIRI: which is really consistent with the show in general

I like that she’s a good mentor without that being her entire role in the story, too

She gets to be funny and scary and have her own shit going on and also be so supportive and not a dragon lady boss

Can we jump back to Jane for a sec?

CANDICE: Yeah! Even Richard with Kat and Jane - it doesn't feel like his reactions to their lives are coming from a superior being. He genuinely cares - about them, their jobs, and the company. 

Sure!

MIRI: Yes! that is why this show works for me the way it does

Ok, do we think Jane made the right choice?

CANDICE: I don't think she could have made a wrong choice.

I know, I'm being a snot.

MIRI: No, that’s a good point!

They’re both good options

which sometimes makes it harder to pick!

CANDICE: But there's a side to taking Incite, that I see in my own life.

MIRI: Oh yeah?

KRIS: I’m reflexively defensive of legacy media and critical of “disruptors” so I was rooting the tiniest bit for her to stay at Scarlet but everyone will feel differently about that

CANDICE: It's promising, you have another strong female editor taking Jane in, being encouraging, supportive, showing her what she's capable of and being open to letting her do big stories and grow into that bigger role.

As much as Scarlet is an anchor for Jane, stepping outside of your base of security can be exciting and take you to new levels of success. If she's not feeling satisfied at Scarlet, why not?

Pinstripe! One of many topics we didn’t get to in the interest of time.

MIRI: I keep going back and forth between thinking she should have stayed at Scarlet and continued to grow more and thinking that this was way too big an opportunity for her to pass up

Really, both were good options 

And I think the chance was definitely the right call for the show!

CANDICE: But, to project my own experience, is she ready? Has she been at Scarlet long enough to be sure this is the right leap - regardless of pay, perks, or prestige. It's a lot to think about.

MIRI: Yeah, the readiness is my concern

Will she be mentored as effectively at Incite?

CANDICE: I don't think she will be.

KRIS: That was maybe one of the most “TV-ish” things, the idea that this few months has suddenly made Jane into The Next Big Thing

MIRI: Yeah

CANDICE: I don't get that vibe.

MIRI: Although that may be something they intend to explore if they get another season!

CANDICE: Right!

MIRI: Ok, speaking of big damn choices: Kat made one too!

CANDICE: If Incite is #theworst, does she go back to Scarlet? If she stays, how much will Jacqueline be involved in her life?

YA FOR SURE, BYE KAT ✈️

Wonder where she decided to go?

KRIS: I’m VERY curious about how Jacqueline will fit into the cast at the start of next season. I guess it’s possible she just doesn’t show up in the first episode or so?

MIRI: I totally assumed it was to be with Adena, but we don;t know that do we?

KRIS: I assumed Peru since it was the last place Adena said she was

but I didn’t look too closely at any of the signs or anything

CANDICE: Kris - totally... we'll have to see!

MIRI: We might get to see Jacqueline interact with Sutton more than we have before? That would be interesting

CANDICE: Miri - I assumed to Adena, at first, too, but Kat's finale seemed a bit vague.

MIRI: That would be very interesting

Her going to find herself/have experiences for her own sake, not tied to a whirlwind romance

I would be super into that

CANDICE: There's a story to be told about Kat doing some traveling and getting out of her Manhattan shell.

MIRI: because as much as I want them together, they have had like 1 3/4 dates and that’s not enough to build something solid on!!!

CANDICE: It's very late 90s Julia Roberts rom-com, of her.

MIRI: I love that

KRIS: Part of me expects a fast-forward to Kat coming back from her trip at the beginning of (fingers crossed) season 2

MIRI: Or she’s back by the end of 201

KRIS: Right

It’s also hard to imagine this show without gatherings in the fashion closet

CANDICE: I think Adena would be supportive, there's stories to be had, too, of Kat running a travel vertical at Scarlet either via social media or under a separate medium.

I knowww, I LOVE that closet.

That carpet is too real. 

MIRI: The closet scenes are the BEST

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But I think they have been deliberately moving towards apartment scenes as season one progressed, so it wouldn’t be AS MUCh of a lurch to lose them for a while

KRIS: I also really liked the detail more than once in dialogue that they borrow clothes from it, whether that’s intended to explain their TV-level wardrobes or not

CANDICE: A nice justification, too, for maybe some of the more sophisticated pieces we've seen these moderately-paid ladies wear.

I see that, too, Miri.

KRIS: Yeah that definitely makes sense to keep having three-handers even if Jane’s at Incite for awhile

CANDICE: Haha, Kris, see above - it bugged me 'til I realized! On a much lower level, I borrowed things from the drama departments all.the.time.

KRIS: Maybe there will be more opportunities for Miri’s bathtub envy series

CANDICE: Yep.

MIRI: I could see an episode (or maybe like a 3-4 ep arc) of Sutton and Jane skyping Kat in, and then in person again

RICHARD’S BATHTUB IS MARVELOUS

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CANDICE: How very Sarah/Cosima of you, Miri.

MIRI: Exactly what I was thinking

CANDICE: Richard's aparTMENT is #goals.

MIRI: So much

CANDICE: I also enjoyed their "getting ready" in the bathroom scene. 

MIRI: Honestly, Sutton could stay with him for that apartment and I would be borderline ok with it

CANDICE: I've been watching some older sitcoms and love those moments shared over a brush of the teeth.

LOL 

MIRI: I love the way you just phrased that so much

CANDICE: :D

MIRI: Can we have a moment of appreciation for the fact that the trifecta are all straight up talented in their fields? 

They’re not perfect at their jobs, but they are talented

And I really appreciate that

CANDICE: I'm so glad you phrased it that way!

And the trifecta being thus isn't a negative.

They have a few edges and lessons left, but their stretches and mistakes feel genuine.

MIRI: They all have shit to learn, they’re like 24 or whatever, but they have ability and drive and I love it

KRIS: Yeah I feel like talented-but-not-fully-formed is something you almost never see

CANDICE: And yet- here I am.

MIRI: ❤️ ❤️ ❤️ ❤️ ❤️ 

CANDICE: To be bold.

MIRI: Bold

CANDICE: That's really what sold this show to me.

MIRI: I see what you did there

CANDICE: They have (haha, thank you thank you)

MIRI: 😉 

CANDICE: They have lessons to learn, but this is clearly not an after-school special.

MIRI: Yes!

KRIS: It’s also been an organic way to get in all the This Is How Magazine Journalism Actually Works (or Close Enough) stuff

CANDICE: They have an intense, amazing boss, but we're not gonna drag you through The Devil Wears Prada again.

MIRI: Kris, how much are you loving the (more or less) realism here?

KRIS: So much

I guess in the interest of clarity I should note that I am not actually a journalist, but did it in college and have friends who went on to do it professionally

It’s also one of the fun things about reading reviews

All these journalists who are like FINALLY SOMEONE GETS US

CANDICE: Yes! 'Cause they have got some aspects of "being in your 20s" down pat.

KRIS: in a post-Zoe Barnes era

MIRI: Who is Zoe Barnes?

CANDICE: House of Cards

Just had to look it up.

MIRI: I thought that might be it!

(Sorry, I’m cooking)

KRIS: sleeps with a source, etc etc

CANDICE: I suspect her journalist character is a bit...heightened?

OKAY then

MIRI: There’s that really great Toast piece about a day in the life of a fictional female journalist

CANDICE: Mercy. But nice to know we're getting some accurate depictions.

MIRI: I always think of her and that together

KRIS: (It’s a bad show, readers, the only reason to watch it is Robin Wright)

MIRI: (Robin Wright is such a badass. Just in general)

CANDICE: I want Robin, Melora, and Helen Hunt to play sisters in a fiery, blockbuster.

MIRI: YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES

YES

CANDICE: they all are just LOADED with talent

KRIS: Oh man I hope we get to meet more people from Jacqueline’s life

CANDICE: Her support system! 

MIRI: Seriously, if you want to see a completely un-Jacqueline performance, check her out in Transparent--the woman is SO talented

Yes, I want to see her friendships!!!

K: Oh, I forgot I wanted to talk about this. I felt like Jane had legitimate concerns here that were never really addressed? Which made it a little weird for Jacqueline to say in the finale “It’s one thing to write about yourself” as if that was something Jane had even wanted to to do in the first place.

CANDICE: - can we visit, at some point, Kadena's dating history, and I quote "1 3/4"??

KRIS: I also kind of want to meet Kat’s therapist parents?

MIRI: I like her husband a lot, but who are her friends??

KRIS: Sure let’s do it

MIRI: I forget the context of that??

CANDICE: I need to KNOW who raised Kat because we are missing a few facets.

Gah- so many things! Umm, i think it was your justification of Kat and Adena not ending up together post-finale.

MIRI: She is a bit of a mystery

Oooohhhh gothca

or gotcha

one of those

I meant that they had only been on like one date and maybe two partial dates

Which is not a relationship. It’s a good start! But it’s not solid

CANDICE: It's hard to get ones bearings on their relationship, with so many other storylines to address.

MIRI: I know they’ve been talking a ton, but they still only partially know each other

KRIS: I was never entirely sure how much we were supposed to assume they were in touch via text/social media

MIRI: Right!

CANDICE: Yeah! And, Kat's curiosity of Adena and lifestyle is lovely, and we're getting lots of support from Sutton and Jane

But we've yet to explore Kat alone with this. Well, other than her semi-topless photo to Adena.

MIRI: I’m honestly still in such a state of delight about how they handled Kat’s coming out arc

K: The physicality in all of these performances is so great

hahahah true

I just love that she got to be unsure without being self loathing

CANDICE: Absolutely.

She already seemed quite positive, both about her self and sex.

MIRI: I would love for them to say the word bisexual at some point

CANDICE: PLEASE?

Yes, please. 

MIRI: All the fingers crossed for season 2

CANDICE: I love Adena. I want her in Kat's life. But they've now gone through two dramatic goodbyes, and I just need some of dat good domestic cuteness. 

MIRI: YES

CANDICE: Their scenes together in the airport will suffice for now. 

MIRI: Kat needs to have her ‘find myself’ adventure, and then get them both in NY for a while for some cute dates and shit

OMG that whole sequence was lovely

CANDICE: But then we gotta get back to whatever the hell Sutton and Jane are doing.

I feel kind of a lot of stress coming their way? Yay, Season 2?

We're gonna have hella conflict and difficulties.

MIRI: Hahahah well you gotta have stakes!

What would you guys like to see in a second season?

KRIS: I’m actually not sure if I want this or not, but I’m curious about the possibility of Jacqueline as a POV character

CANDICE: Hmm?

MIRI: Ooooh

KRIS: I maybe phrased that poorly; I haven’t seen anyone suggesting it, just started thinking about it while we were talking about her before

MIRI: I’m fascinated by the idea of that

CANDICE: I'm wondering more what you mean by POV character.

Am totally lost.

KRIS: That she’d have like a B-story of her own or something, where she’s in scenes without any of the other series regs

CANDICE: Oh!

KRIS: I guess there have been scenes between Jacqueline and Richard

CANDICE: I am pro-that

Out of necessity, really, though.

KRIS: Yeah

CANDICE: I wonder if there's a world where Sutton and Richard are "together" publicly at Steinem

KRIS: I kind of want to see more interaction with other publications? That’s super nerdy

MIRI: I mean, we’re all nerds here

CANDICE: How does that affect the way they're treated? Oliver? Alex? Etc?

MIRI: Yeah, that would be a lot of shakeup

CANDICE: I agree! Oooh, a scene with Scarlet and Incite.

MIRI: Yes! I want to see that!

CANDICE: Perhaps NOT making it an editor vs editor "thing".

MIRI: When Teen Vogue first started getting a lot of public praise for being so “woke” they very deliberately pointed to similar reporting in Marie Claire and others

I’d like to see something with that kind of camaraderie 

KRIS: Yeah, I like to think it’s more likely we’d see stories about journalistic solidarity, especially since they’ve gone ahead and explicitly made Trump part of the world

CANDICE: Totally!

MIRI: While we’re on the subject of woke-ness, I’d also like to see a better/wider discussion of race in season 2

CANDICE: Could even have a line with Kat, should she be outside the US, getting reactions to our country.

MIRI: Ooh, yes to that!!

CANDICE: How every USA-centric of me, alas.

KRIS: But I could totally see that

CANDICE: Agreed, Miri. We've talked about this before - Kat's arrest...

MIRI: Yes, exactly--we talked about it last week but I think it bears repeating here

CANDICE: Not everyone's story should be one of prejudice and persecution...

MIRI: That’s very true

CANDICE: But there was a naive quality about Kat in that moment that felt...honestly untrue to Kat, in addition to what I expected to see from the writers.

KRIS: TOTALLY agree

CANDICE: I can't really sit here and demand a specific experience - because I can never fully relate, but something felt off and overlooked.

MIRI: Kat’s blackness is basically never a part of her characterization, even when stories specifically feature racism or microagressions (I believe our friend Jess pointed that out to me)

KRIS: I got what they were going for with having Adena lay out how big a deal the deportation risk was, but still

CANDICE: She has very well-off parents, and my god what a world for her to apparently have not had to deal with much...

MIRI: I also think there’s an interesting facet of privilege to be examined--Kat is a WOC, but also a wealthy, attractive one. Looking at how that has that changed her experience compared to other black women would be interesting

But a) they don’t seem to be doing that

CANDICE: However, her own experience seems "missing" rather than "minimal"

MIRI: and b) exactly what you just said

CANDICE: Yep

KRIS: Right, and on some level I also get the appeal of, I guess, “aspirational” world-building, which is generally my own preference in writing, but hard to juggle with the real-world-ness of this show

CANDICE: YEP

Yes, Kris!

MIRI: Yeah, they can’t discuss these very concepts as central themes of episodes and also never address them for one of the main characters

KRIS: (Tangential: Is this the sort of show that would have, say, Lauren Duca show up as a guest star, or would that break it in a weird way?)

MIRI: (I could totally see them doing that)

CANDICE: You can only give the excuse of -having little script real estate to work with- for so long....

It's a possibility!

Depends a little on what the showrunner/Freeform wants to say?

MIRI: I wonder if they didn’t write Kat to be black--they may have kept her ethnicity (or all three!) open and not written in any particular direction, whereas Adena was very very specifically written as a lesbian Muslim

KRIS: Yeah, that seems like a safe guess

CANDICE: Hmm... maybe in the pilot, at least.

KRIS: So I know this is not an original observation, but I do think it’s kind of funny and kind of great that the biggest suspension-of-disbelief thing the show asks of us is to accept that everyone is Emotionally Mature and conflict-averse, at least most of the time

CANDICE: I could easily hear Kat pitched as she is, too.

MIRI: And they definitely have Things to Say and write (quite well) to those things, but I think we can agree that that kind of consideration isn’t present in all of Kat’s stories. It feels like a lack of realization that those moments would be omnipresent, not just in big Story Moments

KRIS: Right, feels like an all-white-writers-room situation

(although I haven’t looked up their staff makeup!)

CANDICE: Iiiiii don't believe Kat is emotionally mature.

MIRI: I think from photos I’ve seen it’s not all white, but pretty white

No, she is not

CANDICE: Nor Sutton, in some situations.

MIRI: She is making some progress, but she is not

Also, they are all 3 damn stubborn in their own ways

(which I quite like)

KRIS: I guess I mean on the baseline of how “catfights” are never a thing, and how the storytelling isn’t driven by characters being unbelievably stupid

CANDICE: Truly! Stubbornness is grand for drama.

Oh, yes, Kris, indeed!

MIRI: Oh, Kris I totally missed the original Emotionally Mature message

KRIS: And even Richard and Alex didn’t get saddled with the worst takes on Jealous Lover tropes

MIRI: whoops!

CANDICE: Our trifecta will reason with each other, but their decisions are their own.

MIRI: Yes, I really like that people don’t immediately jump to the worst possible conclusion

CANDICE: Thankfully so!

$11,000 plane ticket? "You do you"

MIRI: They’re willing to hear each other and forgive, which is honestly rare in tv

CANDICE: Moving onto Incite? "You do you"

KRIS: My god that plane ticket

MIRI: Yeah, I don’t know if I can endorse the plane ticket

CANDICE: Was she flying first class to Narnia???

KRIS: HA

MIRI: hahahahahahah

CANDICE: Questionable decisions a la Edmund and the Turkish Delight

ANYWAY

MIRI: 😂

KRIS: A+

CANDICE: I guess Sutton's "You Do You" moment would be making the leap over to fashion

MIRI: Oh, I loved the “we’re your support safety net” of it all so much

Source

CANDICE: Or deciding to break it off with Richard

KRIS: Yeah, contrasted with Richard’s “are you sure you don’t want to do finance?” (or whatever it was)

K: Marketing? That sounds closer to being right.

CANDICE: Fhaihjeisosncyensx

Dammit I GET where he's coming from, but - Sutton would regret not exploring that avenue at the age/place she's currently at

Again, I'm projecting.

MIRI: Yeah, I think he was very well intentioned but she made the right choice

KRIS: Oh I totally get that, Sutton’s story in the first act or so of the season was Too Real for me

CANDICE: It just felt like that parental type of "this is more secure, you're qualified for this, too, and it's safer" vibe coming from his insistence.

MIRI: (We have all 3 moved out to LA to pursue TV writing, so we’re generally in favor of big leaps, readers. We’re also in favor of crying into wine bottles sometimes.)

K: Or staring glumly into whisky tumblers

CANDICE: That's what it boils down to, Kris. We are hella relating to this show.

MIRI: YUP

KRIS: Not that “philosophy PhD” has anywhere near the job stability of finance, but film school was my version of the Sutton leap

CANDICE: I'm the first person in my family to move 24 hours away and pursue a career like this.

I am lovingly encouraged every month to do the things Jane and Sutton moved away from.

MIRI: I could have done a fully funded PhD program in English lit and stayed on the east coast. We have all made questionable choices, but we would have regretted not making them

KRIS: I’m the oldest of the cousins in my family, and of the adults the one who least has their shit together, which I try not to think about

MIRI: I didn’t realize you were the oldest overall. I’m the youngest cousin and everyone is very parental towards me in how they ask about my career and love life and everything

KRIS: We have some fairly young readers, right? That’s right, folks, “humanities PhD” is safe compared to Hollywood, WHEEEEEEEEE

MIRI: HAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHA please insert the Will and Grace “it’s funny cuz it’s true” and “it’s funny cuz it’s sad” gifs here

KRIS: OK OK sorry I’m derailing us

MIRI: No, it’s semi-on topic!

KRIS: bathtubs! closets! Tweetdecks?

I don’t actually know what a Tweetdeck is

CANDICE: Hahaha, y'all are fine- I don't know how to say - my cousins don't really care?

MIRI: Damn, me neither. I just assumed you would know

Candice, we’ll care in their stead

CANDICE: Or at least, don't let on? They're either married with 2+ kids or teenagers making...um, decisions....

Yeah, we'll go with Decisions, bless their hearts. 

MIRI: I have googled “what is a tweetdeck”

CANDICE: Thanks!

I only have heard Tweetdeck from Earpers

MIRI: “TweetDeck is a social media dashboard application for management of Twitter accounts. ... Like other Twitter applications it interfaces with the Twitter API to allow users to send and receive tweets and view profiles.”

KRIS: *nods as if he understands*

Jessica King would be disappointed in me

MIRI: It was a separate app and has now been absorbed by twitter, apparently

CANDICE: Ahh, a mission control kind of situation, it seems

KRIS: oh my god

wait

MIRI: Oh noooo If she’s disappointed in you I can’t imagine what she thinks of me. This hurts

What?

KRIS: does Jacqueline remind me of Jessica King?

MIRI: HAHAHA

YES

CANDICE: All on one page, you can view a live stream of tweets, tweet on your own, and also open new frames to reply?

MIRI: Ohhh, Candice that makes sense

CANDICE: Iiiiinteresting.

MIRI: Kris: She totally does. The strength and the mysterious wisdom

CANDICE: I didn't get enough J King in my life

She just had to sit through my nightmare of a thesis.

MIRI: No such thing as enough Jessica King in anyone’s life

CANDICE: Lol :D a few bits of myself I wish I had fleshed out before having her as a prof/mentor.

MIRI: Are you calling the situation a nightmare (which i know it was) or the script (which I’m sure it wasn’t)

CANDICE: Mainly the situation.

MIRI: Good, I don’t have to bully you into saying nicer things about yourself then

CANDICE: The script made it out safe, despite being in a metaphorical full body cast around... January 2015

Har har

MIRI: WAIT sidebar how long has twitter been around for???

KRIS: I don’t think I’ve ever had a formal mentor-mentee relationship with anyone (which either explains why I like them so much in pop culture or makes it weird that I do) but JK was as close as it got

CANDICE: 2006?

MIRI: TweetDeck has been around since 2008! That is so long ago for a technology!

Kris that definitely explains it

CANDICE: Formal is always kinda... I don't know if I've had a formal one either... you really just are all of a sudden under someone's wing.

MIRI: Or at least makes sense with it

CANDICE: But I get wanting to see it fulfilled in media, too, ab-so-lutely.

KRIS: I feel like I sort of forced myself under Jessica’s

CANDICE: That works, too :)

MIRI: Kris, you were her favorite and everyone but you knows it

KRIS: Part of me understands why people would think this but a bigger, less rational part of me refuses to accept that this is possible

CANDICE: 💥

MIRI: Well you know which part is the less rational part so there’s nothing more I can say there

CANDICE: 🔥🚶🏻‍♀️

MIRI: Ok, do we have anything else to say about The Bold Type?

Source

CANDICE: I love it. Please renew it, Freeform!!!!!!!!!!!

MIRI: ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Accurate

KRIS: ANYWAY I’m normally BOO NEEDLE DROPS Guy and Allison thought it was too much in the gazebo scene, but possibly because I recognized it as “Quiet” aka the Women’s March anthem (and I don’t know that she didn’t, but I feel like she would’ve made a note of it in her review), it worked for me, and I wonder if there’s a correlation between recognizing it and liking its use (assuming other people have Opinions about needle drops in the first place)

CANDICE: First non-genre show in forever I've been in love with.

MIRI: I LOVED that needle drop

Also, really love that studio version of the song

KRIS: I would like to outsource my reactions to possibly all things to Sutton’s face

CANDICE: I love a good needle drop.

MIRI: Kris, now I want to make a study of your reactions to needle drops that you know

CANDICE: #musicnerd

KRIS: I love a GOOD needle drop but I feel like they’re way overused

MIRI: Ok, that’s fair

I love the Bold Type soundtrack in general

CANDICE: Hahahaha, when Sutton dropped for that moment while schwasted in the tub, I died.

MIRI: I’ve listened to it on repeat on Spotify since I started watching the show

CANDICE: I wanna hang out with the music supervisors for The Bold Type and Wynonna Earp so bad.

MIRI: I want to go to a party they co-DJ

KRIS: Yeah, Wynonna’s smart about them too

CANDICE:

It was just. perfect.

MIRI: My god that is such good face acting

CANDICE: I'm still cackling at it.

MIRI: I really do love that they leave room for little moments like that

KRIS: I want to see the outtakes

MIRI: That’s such a stupid little friend moment

CANDICE: Oh, they'd be a RIOT

It IS

MIRI: And that’s what makes it feel lived in and wonderful

And YES to seeing those bloopers

KRIS: I’ve mostly stopped buying DVD sets but I would consider it here just for a good long outtake reel

CANDICE: Oh, Lived In

That's the phrase or idea I've been searching for- you said it!

Definitely.

MIRI: 😎

KRIS: It definitely is riiiiight there on the line between naturalistic and hypernaturalistic, in the best way

CANDICE: I mean - I want my own shows to feel alive, so having this feeling about TBT amongst relating and loving the cast is just icing on the cake.

That sums up my feelings!

KRIS: #RenewTheBoldType

MIRI: That’s really all there is to say

KRIS: Candice thanks SO much for joining us!

MIRI: Seriously!!!

❤️ Much appreciated!!! And if you have interest in doing it again we’d love to have you back

CANDICE: Thank you both for having me!!

It's been a pleasure! I love reading!

For sure.

MIRI: Ooh make Kris watch Pure Country! Let’s do that

CANDICE: HAAA a'ight

MIRI: Awww, thanks, babe! We’re glad you like it 😊 

CANDICE: 😘👌🏻

MIRI: Alright, I’m going to get ready for bed because I kind of forgot that I have to be in the office again tomorrow morning

CANDICE: Night night! I'm about 13 minutes away from bed, myself

MIRI: Also last night I fell asleep with a sheet mask on my face and got super confused when I remembered that fact (5-10 minutes after I woke up) and couldn’t find it, so I think I have some sleep to catch up on or something

KRIS: *British Lady Narrator Voice* Getting a good night’s sleep is important for the bold type

MIRI:

Well I’m officially done trying to predict The Good Place. (This is a lie, and I’m not even sorry. Feel free to mock me for how wrong I am in future.) We knew they would twist us again soon, but not this big this quickly. Damn, Schur & co. Just damn.

I have questions about Janet’s level of self-awareness. Or I guess accumulation/memory of previous resets? Her conversation with Michael as he’s about to reset her suggests she knows somewhat what has happened in the past. That may be due to him explaining it to her over the course of that attempt, but I’m not sure. Does Janet have the capacity to retain change even if she loses memories? Clearly Eleanor and co can, but Janet is not human. But is she a being? Does she have the ability to grow? (Sidebar: Perpetually in love with D’Arcy Carden’s performance. That sequence of falls!)

I genuinely love The Good Place’s relationship to absurdity. When you run 800+ scenarios, you’re going to get to some weird places and a two second farm reality joke is exactly what I never knew I needed from a tv show. They have a damn clam chowder fountain, which is insane but they play it as if it isn’t and that is what works so beautifully. Everything they’re doing is bonkers, but if enough people do the same bonkers thing with a straight face, it’s very hard to question it. That’s what worked in the demons’ favor in the first season, and I think what will work in Eleanor, Michael, etc.’s favor this time around. (I told you I was lying about the no predictions thing.)

Jumping back to the chowder fountain for a moment: Manhattan clam chowder would be more demonic to have around than New England clam chowder in general, but a (proper) dairy based chowder is more horrifying to have in a public fountain, so I believe they made the right call on that.

A few smaller thoughts to wrap up:

JUST realized that Mike Schur and Michael the demon have the same name and I don’t know what that says about Schur or about what Shur thinks of himself. It’s a good name in general, though.

I’m quite excited to see more from Vicky. She’s a really volatile mixture of blind enthusiasm and legitimate shrewdness, plus Sircar is just a joy to watch. 

How high is the demon to bad person ratio, y’all? Is it really this skewed or is this a gross misallocation of resources?

Highly recommend this delightful twitter

ADAM: 

A slight disclaimer: I have been a little busy with the move and without internet living like some early 90s sap. I'm currently at my local Starbucks writing this (Spectrum hooks everything up later today). Now back to the show.

It's hard God Damn work being this right all the time! I mean I figured that the team up storyline would happen later, but well played Mike Schur for just getting to the point (more on that in a minute). I watched the episode at a Holiday Inn Express in Kingman, AZ and I'm pretty sure Kris could hear me patting myself on the back from his apartment in Hollywood. It is a good feeling when you just nail a plot development or future storyline. I mean some could liken my figuring out the plot twist to Jason figuring out that everyone is was in the bad place. Okay, enough of the gloating time for more serious talks because I've got great news for everyone, especially Mindy St. Claire, I didn't forget the cocaine!

I will say that even though I called the team up angle, I did not expect it to happen at the end of episode two. The Michael storyline of nothing working and being blackmailed by fake Eleanor (or whatever you want to call her) did have a mid-season or end of the season storyline to it. After letting everything settle in now, however, it makes sense that Schur would pull something like this-this early on. If you look back to the end of season 6, and all of season 7, of Parks and Recreation he takes massive time jumps. Leslie had triplets and we never saw them except for short moments. He essentially did the same thing with “Dance Dance Resolution.” He showed that we can keep doing the same thing over and over again (ala case of the week) seeing how everyone figures it out. In a recent podcast interview he did with Andy Greenwald, he explained how he likes to dig himself a hole and figure a way out. This episode shows that he's crazy like a fox and like "The Good/Bad Place" anything is possible to happen. I like the fact that with this Groundhog Day kind of episode that Schur and Co. are saying that no matter the different variables that the outcome is the same. Ergo, even though these might be bad people they can still learn and grow to be good. Which then leads to the question of: What really makes a bad/good person? Kris, since you are the philosopher I look to you to answer that question. I will say that with the team up now happening that Eleanor and Co. will grow attached to Michael and vice versa (a bit of a stretch).  

Disclaimer: This portion is going to be heavy with sports analogies.

Eleanor, Chidi, and Janet have some very funny moments in this episode showing that they are getting more freedom to handle more of the comedy on their own (I touched on this last episode). The episode, however, truly belonged to Michael. “Dance Dance Resolution” felt like Ted Danson was playing iso ball. We never really truly got to see him shine, except only during last season's finale. This was his moment and he did not disappoint. He was essentially LeBron barreling down the lane where no one is going to stop him. His ability to set others up (his interactions with Janet and then Jason in particular) so they get their moment is great. How he can work in the scene is great and his comedic timing is on point that it just seems so effortless. I am curious to know how much direction is given to Ted Danson or if it's just give him the ball and get the hell out of his way.

I would say to Kris and Liz that you are both correct that Eleanor keeps her ethical and spiritual growth. The reason is that even though yes she does lose her memory every time there is a reset, if you look at every reset she still does the same thing. She seeks out Chidi for spiritual/ethical growth. While she may not remember what happens she always tries to do the responsible or ethical thing. The question may be that instead of wondering what Janet retains with every reset, we might want to start asking what Eleanor and Co. retain with every reset. The characters’ memories are wiped, but how much are they truly retaining? Even when Eleanor and Chidi visit Mindy St. Claire for the 50th or whatever time, she explains to Eleanor that that is the first time Eleanor has told Chidi that she loves him. Even though they have had sex dozens of times before she never said told Chidi that she loved him. That would mean that even though their memories keep being erased their connection continues to grow stronger. This is going to be a storyline that Eleanor and Chidi are going to continue to grapple with throughout the show because with them trying to fool everyone Eleanor and/or Chidi is going to get jealous (or try to make the other jealous) while they are with their "soulmates." I mean let's be real it will be Eleanor trying to make Chidi jealous by hooking up with her "soulmate" and Chidi trying to get back at her, but failing in a miserable yet funny way. I really hope they stay away from a Will They Won't They sexual tension between Chidi and Eleanor.

Finally, I would have to disagree with the notion of Janet knowing and or retaining information. I think that Janet is just an actual computer trying to understand how the world works. I think that with every reboot I would compare it to a hard reset if someone formatted their computer. In the season one finale Michael says they stole a good Janet and reprogrammed her. She may have a backup drive that Michael does not even know about, which then, said backup drive will eventually be used against him by Shawn to retire Michael. I would also like to see Tahani get some more run. She hasn't had as much space to play as the rest of the co-stars. She has mainly just been involved in the B, sometimes C plot or the occasional runner.

KRIS: 

Since now two of you have asked, my leanings as a former-almost-philosopher are Aristotelian, which is to say that A) I’m generally more interested in character traits — virtues and vices — than in hard universal rules or in what you could call the “moral math” of utilitarianism/consequentialism; and B) I tend to think one’s character is shaped by one’s actions (as Chidi has explained to Eleanor), and that therefore one’s moral sense can be — indeed, must be — trained. As my existentialism professor Iain Thomson once phrased this view, “Aretē is a technē. Virtue is a skill.” (The Greek root of the word “technology” is “technē,” which can translate roughly to “skill,” but also to “science,” or even to “art” in the sense that (an) art is a practice. Which is why the website name Ars Technica is a little strange.)

Virtue ethics, then, may be the main ethic of The Good Place as a show. It’s worth nothing, though, that in “Dance Dance Resolution,” Chidi for the first time identifies himself as a specialist not in virtue ethics but in deontology, i.e., ethics based on rules and duties. (This explains his interest in contractualism and Scanlon’s What We Owe to Each Other, and also why he was so excited to have meals with Immanuel Kant.)

Appropriate response to a Kant superfan I’M KIDDING (mostly)

I’m not yet totally sold on Adam’s read of what I’m going to call Eleanor’s moral continuity, but I like it. (I literally applauded alone in my studio apartment when Adam’s prediction came true.) This brings me to my biggest… I don’t know if “concern” is the right word? But like I said last week, I’ll miss watching Eleanor grapple with her past dirtbaggery, which wasn’t just hilarious but often moving, and often a mirror. Think of when Eleanor’s boyfriend wanted to boycott that coffee shop. Dirtbag-Eleanor decided that because perfectly aligning all of one’s actions with one’s principles is impossible, we shouldn’t bother trying. As a specific scenario, this is something we all struggle with. And in general, the theme of “How Do I Be(come) a Good Person?” is creepy-targeted-Facebook-ads-level Pandering to Kris.

Vox’s Caroline Framke observed that this season reminds her of how Community changed a lot in its second season, shifting from a show “about college” to something supremely strange and toweringly ambitious, all for the better. I definitely don’t object to The Good Place undergoing a similar change, as seems to be the case not only in this episode’s structural ambition but in the increased focus on Danson/Michael. But while I do love Danson (who is everything Adam says he is), maybe because this is actually the first thing I’ve seen him in, I’m less invested in TGP as a Danson Delivery Mechanism than I was in its being — by circumstance if not by design — a show about women and people of color trying to find (or make) their place in the universe.

More importantly, the increased Michael focus is also what signals that TGP is no longer primarily about being a good person — though the team-up suggests it may still be about building a good community. And that’s a Schurian theme I love, partly because it’s an antidote to the distinctly American ethos of radical individualism: Americans like to believe in superheroes, in the Great Man theory of history, in “pulling yourself up by your bootstraps” as the answer to everything, in the power of a single person to change the world through sheer will. But that’s not how the world works. It takes a village. This is indeed the point of Aristotle’s ethics, and of Aristotle’s Ethics, by which I mean the book Nicomachean Ethics, whose last chapter all but explicitly sets up his Politics, a work about how we organize communities to serve the ends of human happiness. An old classmate thought it was insane that political theory students read the Politics without necessarily reading the Ethics, and something like the reverse is also true: the goals established in the Ethics cannot be achieved without politics.

In The Good Place, Eleanor can’t become better if the world around her doesn’t provide conditions that make striving for goodness feasible. A key idea in philosophical ethics is that “ought implies can.” If a moral framework is going to make sense as a human project, and as something that can be enforced, following it has to actually be possible. In life this is what discouraged Eleanor from even trying to be conscientious about how she spent her money, and in afterlife it’s what Chidi agonizes over when Mindy reveals they’ve all been here before: “We are experiencing karma, but we can't learn from our mistakes, because our memories keep getting erased. It’s an epistemological nightmare!”

(For a much cleaner, sharper take on where this may all be going in a larger thematic sense, read Todd VanDerWerff on how he sees The Good Place as a self-conscious repudiation of Parks and Recreation’s optimism.)

ADAM: 

I think TGP is still about being a good person though. While yes there is a team up there still is the suggestion about what characters, mainly Eleanor, will do to figure out how they are good. Everything Schur has created deals with the optimism within not just people, but a community as a whole. This optimism is then brought forth by a conduit (Leslie Knope in Parks and Rec, Terry Jeffords in Brooklyn Nine-Nine) that shows everyone around them that they can either make a difference or can learn to be less selfish. 

Do you think that because Eleanor might retain some sort of "Goodness" that she then tries to make the neighborhood good? Do you think the Eleanor does retain some of the goodness that she has learned from all the resets (hence my theory on her telling Chidi that she loves him for the first time) that she, in fact, will help both Michael and the rest of the neighborhood become good? I don't see TGP as a repudiation to Parks and Rec's optimism, I see it as the optimism shining through the chaos within. Not to belabor the point, but even after all the 800+ resets Eleanor always seeks Chidi out to learn ethics/morality, as she feels guilty that she is not supposed to be in the "Good Place." She never deviates or goes down a different path. Couldn't you say that even in the chaos as a whole Eleanor and Co. still show resolve and that good can still shine through all through the chaos?

KRIS:

I'd like Lemon and/or Miri to take a crack at these questions, and I'll maybe come back to Eleanor when I close this out tomorrow morning, but I'll venture briefly that there's a distinction between the optimism of Parks -- Change for the better is inevitable, we're on the winning side of history -- and the specific, America-in-2017 brand of hope (or maybe that's not even the right word, but something hope-adjacent) that can be read into TGP, in which you try to change things for the better without assuming that you're going to succeed. In the case of Eleanor and Co., it's not like it can get any worse; there's nowhere to go but up, and thus nothing to lose by fighting even an unwinnable battle, but there is a toll on the conscience for giving up.

MIRI:

Point of clarification (because it matters to the questions Adam brought up, not just because I'm a pedantic ass)—I'm pretty sure this was not the time Eleanor said she loved Chidi. Mindy was showing her tape of another time. They overheard the striking demons only a few days into this reset, so they barely know each other this time. Which is why Eleanor was horrified to learn of the love—she doesn't feel that way about Chidi. Yet. And I think that goes to an important point—Eleanor's progress is not a straight line. She's evolved as a person overall, but she's still somewhat who she used to be and has her old memories. The circumstances of each reboot affect how she reacts somewhat. And that's realistic—no path to self improvement is simple or linear. She's going to have backslides and incremental progress. (Also I'd argue that she goes to Janet for help staying under the radar for her own safety and Janet brings her to Chidi. Eleanor doesn't go directly to him out of love or guilt. BUT she does find her way to him and is willing to learn from him over and over and over, which is what matters to me.)

I think that Eleanor's character has improved and that she retains some of that, but that the job is far from done—and that is the most important part. Each time she must choose to do better (not for the best reason to start, but still) and then work at it. Being good in a vacuum is easy and not particularly worthy of commendation. Eleanor is still on her climb out of dirtbaggery, she's just a bit farther along than in the first season.

Also: IT DID NOT OCCUR TO ME until Kris pointed it out that literally none of the non-demon protagonists are white dudes. That's amazing. I have come to expect Fremulon shows to actually look like the world (women, people of color, many things are garbage but not ALL things, etc). But damn, that is worth taking a moment to appreciate.

Also also, I would like to [again] direct you all to the twitter @nocontexttgp because it is a damn delight on my twitter feed and we all deserve that.

KRIS:

I wonder how much we should consider the question of Eleanor's moral continuity in the light of the sitcom "law" that your characters can't really change. Mike Schur and his collaborators (Dan Goor on B99, Greg Daniels on Parks) have pushed this law to its limits, but have they ever really broken it? Jake Peralta has grown up enough to be a worthy partner to Amy Santiago, but he's still definitely recognizably the Peralta of the pilot. Even the increasingly Woke Peralta is seen in season 1, when he punches out guest star Stacy Keach's old school detective for being homophobic. Leslie Knope started out kind of as a hapless Michael Scott clone, but she was never as outright awful a human being, and Poehler's sunniness lent itself to a different direction, so that Leslie became a hypercompetent moral authority, but she also retained her Too Much-ness and her blind love for and faith in her friends.

From the beginning Schur has been clear that The Good Place is intended as a heavily serialized show, so Miri's observation that Eleanor and Chidi seem to flee to the Medium Place relatively early into version 802 gets at a big question I have that this week's inevitable twist will probably prove I'm overthinking BUT STILL: Are we supposed to assume that Eleanor v802 has had roughly the same amount of moral maturation as version 1, that she’s had roughly similar experiences to what we saw last year? It seems like we have to say no, right? And if that's the case, this is on one level a pretty interesting commentary about network sitcoms: in a way it really doesn’t matter what happens to these people week-to-week, as it really didn't matter exactly who Joey was dating or exactly what Monica was yelling about on any given episode of Friends. But more specifically to the serialization of The Good Place, who/what exactly are we rooting for, if not for the Eleanor whose trials we followed last season? This reminds me, weirdly, of one of the big problems of Joss Whedon’s Dollhouse, in which the lead character was a repeatedly reset blank slate and we spent far too long knowing much more about her world than she did. (Echo actually figured out the truth by the end of the original pilot, but Fox wanted more weekly sexploitation, and forced the show into a procedural rut which eventually saw Eliza Dushku in bondage gear for like 30 seconds, apparently just for the hell of it.)

If Adam is right, then Eleanor's situation is something like "10 steps forward, 9 steps back" in every reset, and maybe last season did "matter" in-universe. But if Adam is wrong, then I guess what we're rooting for has to be in Eleanor's nature rather in her nurture -- maybe her fierce insistence on setting her own course, driven home as a fundamental drive with last season's revelation that Eleanor emancipated herself from her parents as a teenager -- and/or the very notion of moral perfectibility itself. Not perfection, but the potential for it. That is, we're rooting for Eleanor not because she becomes better but because deep down she wants to. I could live with that.

This isn’t relevant to my point, I just really wanted to include it

Lastly: I mentioned last week that I’m a little down on twist-driven storytelling as a concept or approach, but part of the reason it works so well here is that by going to the team-up so early — despite, as Adam said, having the feel of mid-season significance — the show is telling us it’s not “really” about the twist. Whereas something like Westworld builds really slowly and deliberately to a revelation that’s supposed to be earth-shattering, here the twist seems to be a means to a character-driven end, rather than the end in itself.

We’ll try to keep this up all season!

MIRI: I love the prediction of them working together to create this kind of secret decent place—humanized demons and lowkey shitty humans working together to live happyish lives sounds very The Good Place and has long term shenanigans potential. 

I know the big reset is the most obvious thing to discuss about the second season premiere of The Good Place, but I really do want to dive a little deeper into it. One of the generally accepted rules of sitcoms is that “status quo is king.” Big changes are joked about, flirted with, whatever, but at the end of the episode, things go back to normal. Theoretically, you could tune in to any episode more or less cold and know what’s happening because the major factors of the universe are static.

This is changing, somewhat. There are sitcoms with serialized storylines nowadays, although it would perhaps be more accurate to call them serialized half-hour comedies (or even dramedies). The Good Place falls kind of in that middle space. It has the weekly hijinks that we can all tune into—we know to expect some funny not-cursing from Eleanor, Chidi being earnest and outraged, Michael messing up human terms, and Janet being a goddamn delight—but we also know that each episode will advance the plot. The show both is and is not a traditional sitcom. The situational comedy is baked in: Eleanor is in the Good Place and she doesn’t belong. Her quest to hide her dirtbag nature will inevitably lead to funny situations. But this is not a Three’s Company world where the big secret can be hidden forever. (I have never seen a single episode of Three’s Company and I’m sorry.) Eleanor was always going to get found out, or more accurately find out what’s happening to them. The pace of The Good Place has been set to maximum from the beginning.

So, how do you mix the old and the new, the gags of the week with the plot and character development? A freaking reset button. It’s the most The Good Place thing ever and I 100% did not call it. I love that this show can take the best of traditional sitcoms and marry it with changes that keep the show going and fresh. On his other shows (such as Brooklyn Nine-Nine and Parks and Recreation) Mike Schur is more willing than most to let his characters grow, but not in the world-shaking way The Good Place gleefully barrels towards. Possibly because The Good Place is the only one that allows for actual world shaking as part of the plot.

I love the reset, and I really love that they undercut it with the double reset. But how long can that continue? It seems possible to have a reset every season, but that seems predictable in a way The Good Place is not. I think Adam's point is a good one. What do you guys think comes next? Also, I have a feeling there is no true Good Place in the show’s universe. I think they're on their own. There might be a neutral place. Anyone else?

LIZ: Third time’s a charm and third reactor is trying to be one too (ha)! The Good Place season 2 has started up with a bang, in my opinion, by finding its stride as far as the strengths of the ensemble and by having FUN with such a wild concept. 

I agree with both Adam and Miri. Adam is right to question the longevity of such a high-concept based sitcom and Miri is totally right in her assessment of the sitcom’s reliance on the status-quo. She is also right about the fact that things are changing and half hour comedies are starting to stretch their bounds and challenge their characters into (dare I say?) changing! The most fun thing about this show is probably the most daunting thing about it: it takes place in a totally made up after-life where nearly anything is possible and the writers can make up the rules as they go. I’m optimistically confident that Mike Schur has some kind of series arch in mind that will structure the lives of Eleanor, Chidi, Jason and Tahani (or afterlives I guess), but the question of Michael being the co-protagonist or antagonist- turned- anti-hero in future episodes remains. 

As far as this episode, I have some concerns and I have some actual laugh-out-loud moments to discuss. In general, the strength of the cast, the writing, and the characters being used appropriately to maximize their comedic effect seem to be things that are worked out and working for us in this episode. For instance, we have the luxury of having a “fresh start” kind of episode where we already know the faults, personalities, and strengths of the cast. The entire first season served us some incredibly interesting characters and now we get to see them sweat, surprise us and really upset Michael. The little details of the Good Place actually being the bad place are so entertaining by the way. I love that the “actors” want to just burn, twist, and bite like the good old fashioned torture technicians they are. 

I can’t wait to read what Kris has to say about the philosophy of it all, but I have some very non-expert opinions on the morality themes of this show. It seems that Eleanor has technically re-set and is a blank slate, but without having gone through the first attempt at Michael’s trickery in season one, I don’t think the note would have helped her figure out the truth as fast as she did. It seems that she has changed and that her soul or her core being is still improved from her previous lessons with Chidi. That personal growth might be gone from the characters’ memories, but they seem to be operating as slightly more evolved people instinctually than when they were first introduced. To me, this brings up the idea of the soul versus the body, which are at play in the good versus evil argument. It seems like the body can be mechanically re-set in this reality, but the soul seems to retain knowledge and growth from past lives, whether they are on earth or in the after-life.  I know Miri touched on that point, but that’s my take on it.

I am also assuming that the huge twist at the end of the last season means that we could face another huge twist again. Perhaps one of our beloved characters is actually someone sent to oversee Michael for his boss? Maybe Janet is an actual angel or perhaps Eleanor is? Maybe it is Michael that is actually in the bad place and he is being tortured by thinking he has the power to reinvent the bad place? I like the idea of Eleanor going along with Michael out of pity, but trying to protect the others as well for as long as she can keep it up.  I also wander if they will bump themselves out of the bad place (if that is possible) for continuing to grow and surprise us with their character evolution? I’m excited to find out and I never want to see the “enormous butthole spiders.” I’m definitely here for those kind of jokes as well as Jason really letting his strange personality fly (and watching him maybe fall in love with Janet again and again?). Eleanor feels like a reformed bad girl in the episode, but I’m sure we will see her naughty side again this season.

KRIS: Adam’s prediction makes a lot of sense to me, too, and although I admit I’m instinctively skeptical that a reset button is sustainable, I’m also a True Believer in Michael Schur.

I think the best evidence that there is a real Good Place in the universe of The Good Place is Janet. I guess it’s entirely possible that Michael was an unreliable narrator of his own flashbacks when Eleanor figured out the truth in last season’s finale, but he does say that “we even stole a Good Place Janet.” And of course she helps accelerate the discoveries in this premiere, by bringing Jason to meet the other saddest-sack she’s seen recently. GQ has a good interview with D’Arcy Carden, touching on how hard it is to play a character with no real agenda and certainly no capacity for subtext, but I think we’re seeing the show move toward making Janet a secondary protagonist and no longer “just” an environmental feature. I don’t mean that to sound disparaging; as you all know, Janet was my very favorite new character of the 2016-17 TV season. This is even taking into account the Sweet/Vicious gang. And as I mentioned in our cohort Marco Polo (LEMON YOU NEED TO GET MARCO POLO BACK), I would love to see at an episode this season primarily follow Janet as a POV character.

(My own lingering question about the cosmology is whether Mindy St. Claire and the “Medium Place” in last season’s episode 12 were the real deal. I lean a little toward Yes, since Janet is the only one who can operate the trains and the existence of the Medium Place seemed to be part of her core memory, and that was very shortly after her reset. But who knows if Michael was able to tamper with her?)

Liz touched on what I thought was the most interesting element: the suggestion that Eleanor, at least, hasn’t lost all of her growth from last season. One of my big worries, or at least questions, coming out of that finale was whether seeing Michael as a POV character be enough to make up for having to watch Eleanor revert back to her dirtbag self. Some of this concern was allayed by the sheer fun of Kristen Bell getting to deliver lines like “Why don’t I ever listen to people when I talk about themselves? No, it’s annoying, and I’m right not to.” But you come to a Fremulon show for the earnest humanity as much as for the jokes, so I was relieved to ultimately see a more thoughtful, more worried Eleanor than the Eleanor we met in the pilot. Depending on how much overthinking you want to do, the implied body-soul dualism Lemon mentions does pose questions about both how powerful and how ~EVIL~ the Bad Place crew really is, but if I have a lingering concern about the big world-building twists, it’s just that delving deeper into the (admittedly delightful) workplace comedy premise of “Michael the Demon Architect and his Petty Boss and Underlings” will inevitably mean losing some emphasis on last season’s central theme — how can/will Eleanor (read: any of us) become a better person?

Much as I hate to lose that thread, though, it’s an acceptable price for what Adam observed: as the show reconfigures itself around a true ensemble setup — an all but inevitable move for sitcoms moving past a first season — we’ll get to see a lot more of everyone else. Beyond Janet it’s impossible for me to pick a favorite. I of course identify very strongly with Chidi, not only for his former profession but because I too can be an indecisive wreck. (I also loved the callback to Chidi’s crushing guilt over almond milk, as it is a guilt I share. I don’t drink almond milk, partly for the very reason Chidi cites, but I do sometimes still buy almonds. I think I’m okay sometimes doing so because I don’t often eat beef, BUT STILL GUYS ALMONDS ARE A HUGE WATER DRAIN and they’re pretty expensive anyway.) But god, I really really love Tahani, too, and not just in a “sexy skyscraper” way.

MIRI: I have a few more thoughts, mostly stemming from Kris’s point that I absolutely love: "you come to a Fremulon show for the earnest humanity as much as for the jokes.” It’s so true. (I watched the B99 premiere this morning and I am Made of Feelings right now.) Eleanor is partially reformed. Seems like a reset can put a surface level veneer of dirtbaggery over that, but can’t undo the progress. So my prediction is that as the slow redemption becomes less of a constant thread (I don’t think it’ll ever die out completely) and as we see more workplace Michael shenanigans, we will eventually get to a plotline about the Temptation of Eleanor Shelstrop. Michael will realize that she’s the one who keeps figuring things out and offer her an out—IF she leaves the others behind. Although, is that too similar to the train dilemma of season one? Perhaps if it happened pretty soon after a reset, and then we could have a story about her rediscovering her goodness and trying to get back to the neighborhood to save the others after she’s accepted the deal.

Kris is totally right about the Good Place Janet theft. I had forgotten about that, and it definitely suggests that there is a Good Place, and maybe even a Medium Place. If there is, I’m shocked there aren’t more people in it. There has to have been more than one exactly medium person in all of history. I don’t know if I think this is something that would actually be explored, but what if there are many medium people in their own individual medium places? That feels on brand for this kind of world, though I’m not sure it would add much to the narrative.

I’m most interested to see how long the current reset lasts. I definitely don’t think it’ll be either extreme (one ep again or the entire season) but I could see a few in between options, particularly the end of episode 3/4 or at the midpoint of the season (episode 7). What do you guys think? And what comes after? I don’t think it’ll be another reset immediately. (Though if they did it I do have faith in Schur’s ability to pull it off—I am a devotee.)

I’m super excited to see more of people’s backstories and more POV moments for the others. I’m also looking forward to learning some more about the torture techs! The artist formerly known as Real Eleanor and the biter are an interesting start and while I don’t want them to overshadow the core 4, Janet, and Michael I am excited for them to be the evil/quirky townspeople.

A few housekeeping points:

Re: Tahani’s sexy skyskraperness—Eleanor is clearly bi and I love it. I will love it even more if they ever actually say it, but either way I love it. Also, this reminds me of another question: how important do we think the love story will be? I really like the Eleanor/Chidi dynamic and I can see it continuing to be important, or I can see it going down a more platonic route. Or do we think it goes away now that they’re not being told they’re soul mates? I hope not. I don’t need a love story in general, but I really did like them.

I drink cashew milk instead mostly, but I have a secret fear that cashews are just as big an environmental drain as almonds, it’s just talked about less. Afraid to do research on this point. 

Definitely second the desire for a Janet POV episode! I love her and I think that would be a really cool chance for further envelope pushing in their storytelling. Plus more D’Arcy Carden just in general.

KRIS: I am always a proponent of not sticking your lead in an Obligatory Romance, but I’ve also grudgingly accepted that this is kind of a theoretical position as TV goes. I think it might have even been you, Miri, who told me that Schur said somewhere that he likes romances because they’re what anchor a potentially large, diverse audience to characters who may have jobs or circumstances (like being dead) that most people might otherwise have difficulty latching onto. (Possibly I just saw it in an interview?) Which is a long way around to saying that I do think Eleanor and Chidi are (this term annoys me more than it should, for no good reason I can think of) “endgame.” Part of me would definitely enjoy the (slight, admittedly established) swerve of Chidi and Tahani ending up together, which made a decent amount of sense to me back in the first half of season one, but at this point Chidi and Eleanor do seem more compatible.

As for philosophy, I think it’s a safe bet that we’ll be leaving behind the heavy hitters of introductory ethics, if maybe not the field as a whole. I doubt there’s much story mileage in re-hashing Chidi’s lessons on Aristotle, Kant, utilitarianism, or contractualism (which I actually did not at any point study formally, but kind of want to now just because that one book’s title — What We Owe to Each Other — hits me right in my heart of hearts), at least not for writers who don’t have time to become PhD-level experts in the material. It might be interesting if Chidi tries to brush up on his metaphysics as the gang tries to figure out their new world, but there’s not a clear character hook in that field the way there is with ethics. Existentialism could be a fruitful place to go, and isn’t a massive leap in specialization for an ethicist, especially one who’s established as liking French philosophy. But most people too quickly and too easily conflate existentialism with nihilism, and that is definitely not Schur territory.

Liz mentioned the likelihood of another major twist at some point. I am generally not someone who likes to try predicting or out-thinking a show, and many critics and some showrunners have observed that twist-driven storytelling (as opposed to, you know, CHARACTER-DRIVEN STORYTELLING) is increasingly misguided when thousands or millions of viewers can crowdsource theories and predict finale twists by episode 3 or 4 (hi Westworld). All that said, after thinking about it for 30 seconds, I would put at least a small amount of money on us meeting someone from the real Good Place by the season’s “end of act 2,” if not at its midpoint. And the more interesting questions that might follow from this are,

How close is the real Good Place’s vibe to the show Michael has put on (we did see a Good Place representative in “Mindy St. Claire,” but that VHS was recorded 30 or 40 years ago)?, and 

WHO WILL THAT SPECIAL GUEST STAR BE?

Readers, we don’t have a long-term plan here. I don’t hate the idea of us doing this every week, but every three or four weeks seems more likely, as Miri and I did with Wynonna Earp. I could also see us having Good Place thoughts every week and just not from all four of us; maybe something will inspire Lemon next week, and maybe Adam will develop a new theory the week after, who knows. We’re also out of the summer TV season, which at least in theory means a lot more shows worth reacting to, and as we don’t do this for money (though WE WOULD LOVE TO, universe), we have the luxury of picking up and dropping shows at random, without worrying about clicks and ad dollars.

KRIS: I’m not like an Austen expert or anything (actually haven’t seen most adaptations), but I was fond of what I read of hers in high school, and Matt Quinn [a professor we both had, though at different times] had recommended that I look at Whit Stillman for a feature rewrite, so this was definitely a lot of things I both wanted and needed. Did you like it/what’s your Austen history/can you imagine talking about a Jane Austen adaptation with Matt Quinn?

KEELY: I wouldn't say that I am an Austen aficionado, but I have seen most of the adaptations of her work over the years. In general, I enjoy epic love stories with extraordinary costuming and scenery. As to Austen in particular, I appreciate the strong female characters she was creating long before anyone else was. What I particularly liked about Love & Friendship, however, is that it was more light-hearted than Austen's other works. While it maintained her trademark strong-willed, independent female heroine, it included so much more comedy than typically present in her stories. I thought it was a lot of fun!

And, no, I can't imagine Matt being even remotely interested in Jane Austen!

But he's got a good eye. What Stillman did with this film was not typical Austen - it was a fresh new twist on the genre.

KRIS: (sorry for any delayed responses on this end, I think my computer is just getting your messages slowly)

The lightness definitely struck me too. I loved the portrait-y “title card” things, which were such a good way to telegraph the overall cheekiness of the movie that I assumed they were in the script, but I read somewhere that they only occurred to Stillman after the fact

KEELY: I read the script, and didn't notice them in there either. I liked it too. It added to the fun and comedy of the movie overall. It reminded me of the quirkiness of The Royal Tenenbaums. 

I also read that Jane Austen's original novella was a series of letters, which makes Whitman's adaptation even more interesting. 

KRIS: Right! And there are still hints of that not just in how dialogue-driven and seemingly “uncinematic” it is, but in how a fair amount of the action (like one of Susan’s arguments with Reginald) happens off-screen

Also, the elder Lady DeCourcy immediately became one of my favorite characters in that scene where Sir DeCourcy read Catherine’s letter to her

“My eyes have definitely cleared”

KEELY: I found that scene compelling as well. There was a sense of sweetness in marriage. My biggest criticism of the film is the lack of parity between the men and the women. The men in general are fairly dopey, manipulated by the women around them, as if pawns in a game. 

KRIS: I get that, though I guess part of the reason it didn’t bother me is that everyone’s at least a little dopey, and out of their depth; even Susan sometimes seems to have massive blindspots

I also weirdly identify with Charles’s whole always-has-a-reason-to-say-yes thing

KEELY: Agreed. And that's part of the comedy - the complete disconnect between the characters at times. Part of Stillman's genius in the film is not taking Austen too seriously. However, I always hate to see a man empowered at the expense of a woman, and am equally adverse to seeing a woman empowered at the expense of a man. I prefer romcoms where both of the players learn from each other, where there is more parity.  That, to me, is where the chemistry comes from.

Loved Charles. Dopey, but lovable. And that nugget – always doing the right thing at the right time - is very sweet. And, yet, where's the chemistry?! ;) 

I guess I would say that Love & Friendship played fabulously as a comedy (Lady Susan, Sir James - laugh out loud funny!) but fell a bit short on romance for me.

KRIS: Definitely true that it isn’t really a chemistry-driven movie, and it’s interesting that Susan being this sort of force of nature ends up meaning she doesn’t get a Darcy-like sparring partner

I LOVED Sir James

Always looking up for some reason

KEELY: He's an absolute scene stealer! Tom Bennett could not play that part any better. Genius.

KRIS: I’m not sure if I’d say this felt underdeveloped, exactly, but I would have liked a better sense of Susan and Alicia’s history and friendship

Maybe because of most of my formative pop culture being superhero and action stuff that routinely fails the Bechdel Test, adult me is always fascinated by really well-drawn friendships between women

KEELY: I think the story overall was a little bit thin. I don't say that necessarily as a criticism, because again I think the story works best as a comedy. But I too would have liked just a bit more backstory on the characters. And, being a romcom writer, would've liked to have seen why the characters fell in love.

Much of the courting happens off screen or in montage scenes. To your comment about Darcy-like sparring, I think that, for me, was what was missing.

KRIS: I have So Many Questions about Lord Manwaring

KEELY: Good point regarding the Alicia and Susan friendship. Those scenes were so much fun to watch. They highlight what was truly great about this film - the idea of women trying to find an avenue of liberation in an oppressive, male-dominated society. Lady Susan is doing what women aren't supposed to do – manipulate her circumstances, sleep around, outsmart men, dictate her own future. When Sir James meets with Alicia in the end, he finds it laughable that women would cheat on men. And that's laughable to us! It's exactly what Lady Susan is doing. She's breaking the rules. This is groundbreaking for a heroine of her time. And it still plays today. Which makes it fun. I'm all like, "Yea, girl, don't let them slut shame you." ;)

KRIS: Yes, I was really, really struck by how there’s this surprising harshness built into the very premise of I guess really all of Austen’s matchmaking stories, but that I hadn’t thought much about before this: Susan’s literally trying to make sure she and Frederica have roofs over their head next week, and all of her (hilarious) cruelty comes from trying to make that happen

One of the movie’s shortest but best lines: “We don’t live, we visit.”

KEELY: Lord Manwaring. Talk about an underdeveloped character! Although, I think this works so well for Lady Susan's character. For all of her scheming, planning and plotting, in the end she's just as susceptible to attraction and infatuation as all of the men infatuated with her.

By not knowing Lord Manwaring, it boils the relationship down to its essence - sex. Another rule Lady Susan is breaking. ;-)

And while we're on the subject of Lady Susan, can we just talk about the wicked dialogue?

KRIS: Absolutely

I planned to take notes on my rewatch, which Marchae is really good about, and I mostly just wrote down lines

You’ve touched on how there’s kind of a lack of Feeling in this movie that tilts it into a particular area of comedy, and there’s an interesting balancing act in reminding us that the stakes are kind of brutishly existential while having Susan float so high above it all. And I guess it’s exactly because the stakes are so high that the flippant-ness of Susan’s dialogue is so funny

KEELY: It's so hyper verbal. So many witty, ironic, multi-layered lines embedded to very even-keeled monologues. I was afraid to look away for even a second for fear of missing a line of incredible dialogue!

I love your reference to Lady Susan floating above it all. My favorite line: "I vastly prefer the generous spirit of a Manwaring who, deeply convinced of one's merit, is satisfied that whatever one does is right." On the surface, she's talking about a quality she likes in a man. Really, though, she's talking about herself. This is why I love her. Because she's honest with herself, and she approves of herself and the choices she's making. That's empowerment.

KRIS: Oh that line about Manwaring is a great catch. I also love that Susan gets to be all of those things you say, but also -- in what are some of her funniest lines -- totally unreasonable and hypocritical about some things, exactly because she never stops to question herself. Only Alicia ever manages to provoke introspection

“and as an element of friendship is involved, I’m sure the paying of wages would be offensive to us both”

“A worthy lover should assume one has unanswerable motives for all one does!”

And then there are times when she’s tooootally spot-on, even when her overall goal in the scene is to be manipulative, like when she defends James to Reginald -- “the incomprehension of the rich and easeful” and all that

Susan getting too real: “But any man, navigating the cascades of romantic courtship, and occasionally falling into those foaming waters, is apt not to appear at his best.”

KEELY: "Facts are horrid things!" 😂 As a lawyer, I could not love this line more. I think on some level Susan knows that she's being unreasonable, but believes that the ends justify the means. She says to Alicia - "we women of decision" - meaning she is in charge of her life. She is - like the line above – convinced of her own merit, therefore her decisions must be correct, even if the rationale is somewhat unreasonable.

I’m glad Keely mentioned the “women of decision” line because this first scene is also one of my favorite bits in the movie

Lady Susan is certainly one of the meatier female lead roles I've seen in awhile. Kate Beckinsale must've had an absolute blast playing that part, which she does flawlessly. My only criticism, from a story standpoint, is that Lady Susan's character doesn't seem to evolve in any material way as a result of her journey. She begins the story as a manipulative egocentric, and alas she ends as she starts, with perhaps just a smidgen more affection for her daughter. She's a wonderfully fun character to watch but she learns virtually nothing, which is a bit unusual. Normally I would say this was unsatisfying, but in this case I love Lady Susan so much that I don't really want to see her change. ;) Did you feel this way at all?

KRIS: First, I totally agree with your point about her conviction and self-regard -- and even when she wrongs people on an individual level, it’s hard to fault her for the orientation toward life she’s chosen in the context of her society. (Totally different genre, but I also feel this way about Gone Girl.)

I think it’s true that she doesn’t have much of an arc

But I agree, she’s so fun to watch and Beckinsale just kills it, I’m not sure I’d want to see a different Susan. Definitely not one with softer edges.

I’m trying to pinpoint the act breaks to see if there’s more of an emotional arc that I’m missing, but I think the breaks are the arrivals of new characters who complicate Susan’s scheming

They’re consequences of her actions, but they’re consequences of actions that happen in “zero act” so they don’t have the same cause-and-effect feel that you’d “traditionally” want to see in a straightforward feature

(I thiiiink I’d say the break into two is when James arrives, but could see a case for Frederica. The break into three is triggered by Lucy Manwaring, yeah?)

KEELY: I felt like the first act break was the arrival of Federica (which Susan clearly doesn't want, and complicates Susan's designs on Reginald), but agree that Lucy Manwaring was the second act break. The only small arc that I can see for Lady Susan is a growing affection for her daughter. It's small (if it even exists) - we only see just a hint of it in her final carriage ride with Alicia.  Otherwise she seems to hold true to her convictions and her world view from beginning to end, no?

KRIS: I think that’s right. There’s a suggestion that her feelings about Frederica haven’t changed much when she tricks Catherine and Charles into thinking that moving Frederica back to Churchill is something she doesn’t want, but I think the best hints that their relationship has improved are in Frederica’s attitude toward the end

Although part of that is probably just relief about not having to marry James, and I guess it’s still not clear whether Frederica understands all the layers of Susan’s scheming

I did laugh out loud at the line “I’m not so self-indulgent as to want to wallow in the companionship of a child”

“even her tendency to extreme quiet I’ve grown to find rather soothing” was another favorite -- deeply honest in what I read as an otherwise manipulative conversation, and funny for how to Susan it’s a throwaway observation that she doesn’t realize says a lot about their relationship or her parenting

KEELY: Could there be an argument that her growth is that she becomes more "selfish"? Instead of trying to save Frederica's future by passing her off on Sir James, she takes Alicia's advice to be more "selfish" and takes Sir James for herself. This plays nicely into the tongue in cheek- ness of the film – the idea that Lady Susan has actually been incredibly unselfish for the entire film and only becomes selfish in the end when she decides to take Sir James as her own. Sounds like an argument Lady Susan herself would make. ;-)

KRIS: Oh I LOVE that

She does SO MUCH damage when she’s trying to do the best thing she knows how for Frederica, and everything just clicks together when she takes Alicia’s advice

That’s great

KEELY: It seems poetic.

KRIS: And it’s also illuminating of the Manwaring relationship, like you said -- she’s doing actually a very unpragmatic thing by holding out for a union with this guy she’s deeply in lust and love with

KEELY: I wish I lived in LA. This would be so much fun over wine.

KRIS: Yes, please reach out next time you visit, if you have time! I’m happy to stay on here as long as you like, but I also don’t want to keep you too long if your schedule for the rest of the day is tight. The last big thing I really want to say is that I enjoy how a lot of the first act involves learning about Susan through how other people talk about her when she’s not around. That’s a device I tend to like a lot, but I’m not yet very good at it myself -- it’s easy to make it too transparently expositional, but it works really well here, maybe because it’s being translated from an epistolary novella.

KEELY: I liked that too – in particular, the introductory scene between Lord and Lady Vernon. It efficiently and effectively demonstrates the difference between how men and women view Lady Susan, which is the heart of the conflict in the story.

KRIS: Right, there’s a little bit of a “catfight, maybe?” vibe that could be troubling in other contexts, but here part of the lesson -- though the text of the movie is never pedantic about this -- is that Susan is sometimes harmful to other women because patriarchy has sort of weaponized her talents. And because the movie loves Susan as much as we do, it doesn’t go into like “Madonna-Whore complex” territory.

And it also never makes, say, Catherine the butt of a joke. I liked that I could empathize with her even as I rooted for Susan to pull out a win somehow.

KEELY: I think, overall, it illuminates the superior intellect of the women too. In other words, the women are able to see through her deceit and manipulation whereas the men are not. 

KRIS: Yeah!

The first scene with Catherine and Charles does a lot of work in hindsight. Catherine is absolutely in the right about the facts, but Charles also isn’t wrong in a broader sense about how women in Susan’s position are treated.

Reginald and Catherine’s father is interesting in this context -- he knows enough to think of Susan as dangerous, but isn’t smart enough to outmaneuver her and is maybe the closest thing the movie has to an unpleasant personality so our sympathies stay with Susan

KEELY: Agree. I particularly like Catherine as well, even though she points out Lady Susan's faults. I think it's because the film doesn't fall into the trap of making women dislike other women on the basis that they're attractive to other men. That's catty. Here, the women don't like her because she's manipulative (or a husband stealer). Which is fair. But we don't fault Lady Susan for her manipulation because what other choice does she have in her world? 

The film walks a tightrope here, but comes out well-balanced I think. 

KRIS: Yeah, the whole thing is such a fun and smart and delicate balancing act

Do you have any other overarching thoughts, or favorite moments/lines?

KEELY: I think it's a good illustration of how important comedy is to the success of this genre right now. I'm feeling inspired!! 

KRIS: Keely, thanks so much for joining me to talk about this. And for being patient with the long waits between my replies!

Hopefully we’ll figure out a time to talk about Home Again with Kelly soon

KEELY: Thank you, Kris!! Your thoughts and insights are illuminating - it's been a lot of fun!! 

And, YES, Home Again and Nancy Meyers are my jam. I'll make myself free!!

(Hope you’re reading, Kelly.)

MIRI: I think they may have tried to straddle the line between training these kids to be superheroes and training them to control their abilities for their own good/the safety of others

And kind of gone back and forth as the plot demanded, which isn’t great

CAROLINE: I was super into the high school stuff though

Which is why I wanted more of it

MIRI: Yeah, I think that is what works better

CAROLINE: Also Storm 100% should've been a teen too

I was a little mad about that

MIRI: Huh, so just Xavier, Wolverine, and Beast as the adults? That would have been entertaining

CAROLINE: Or... no adults

JUST TEENS

MIRI: Ooh, just all of them in high school?

I’m into that

CAROLINE: And no Wolverine, that voice actor was terrible

MIRI: What are you talking about, bub?

CAROLINE: Ha!

K: I do prefer this costume to his classic one, though

Even Wolverine as a teen would've been fine

I mean I realize that is entirely against the canon as he's ageless

But they could've made it work

Angsty teen Wolverine

MIRI: Eh, there’s plenty that’s against canon or just outside of it

Ok, I need to take a moment to just gush about how much I love angsty goth teen Rogue

Because it is A LOT

CAROLINE: Go for it!

MIRI: She has so many feelings and she wants to be loved so badly! And she makes the ridiculous outfits work shockingly well!

Basically, she was one of my first crushes and I had NO idea that was true until like 4 years ago

M: Bisexuality in a heteronormative world is an adventure, kids.

CAROLINE: I feel like the movies and these two series give us three VERY different takes on Rogue

Yet they all work really well on their own ways

MIRI: And the voice actress is amazing.

Yes! I’d say this one is a little closer to the film one, but still pretty different

CAROLINE: Yeah she's great! I great cartoon crush all around

MIRI: Hahahah thanks

Honestly, I thought the Scott/Jean/Rogue love triangle moments at the end of the “Power Surge” episode were the most compelling storytelling EVER as a kid. Especially when Jean talks through Rogue at the end

CAROLINE: Oh yeah that was heartbreaking

MIRI: I think the way people changed from x-men to Brotherhood in this show is really interesting

CAROLINE: And Rogue's powers being a metaphor for unrequited high school love is perfect

Oh yeah that one dude was super hot

Speaking of cartoon crushes

MIRI: Which one?

CAROLINE: Quake maybe?

In my head he was Gambit, which he definitely wasn't

MIRI: Ohhhhh Lance? The one Kitty seems to be dating in the second episode?

CAROLINE: Yes! I was super into him

MIRI: Not my type of unwashed 90s boy, but I respect your opinion

I like that they can be dating or friends or whatever, which on “Enemy” teams

CAROLINE: It's a fun idea

MIRI: And Tabitha can change sides, but then also be a in a girl gang with Jean, Kitty, Rogue, and Amara

CAROLINE: And another reason I feel like the show would've been better if it were an all high school series

MIRI: You may be converting me here

CAROLINE: Aahaha

I did really enjoy Kitty as well!

She wasn't a big part of TAS or really the movies either

K: In the comics, she’s actually introduced in the Dark Phoenix arc

MIRI: The fake Valley Girl thing bothered me at first, but you get used to it super fast and I like the character a lot

CAROLINE: And this series encapsulates her nicely

MIRI: No, she was super secondary in the movies

Which is a shame because Ellen Page

CAROLINE: I love how diverse the X-Men are in terms of personality types

That's a fun conceit of the show

These people probably wouldn't have been high school friends if they weren't linked by their powers

MIRI: And on that score, the conceit of them all living in the Institute is nice

CAROLINE: And now they all have to figure out how to get along

That's true

MIRI: Because they’re pseudo siblings in a way they wouldn’t be without living together

CAROLINE: But also they're all dating each other?

MIRI: ….yes

CAROLINE: This is where things get weird

MIRI: Also yes

CAROLINE: And the amount of supervision they have is confusing to me

It's either a ton or none

MIRI: Mostly none

CAROLINE: The show probably just didn't want to deal with parents, which I get

But I don't think this Xavier is a great caretaker of teens

MIRI: I like the terrible attempts at lamp-shading like when the kids say “I can’t believe Duncan’s parents let him have parties”

Yeah, this Xavier is more of a Fun Uncle than a parent

CAROLINE: A recipe for disaster

Anyway the interpersonal dynamics between the teens were all great

Especially Scott and Jean, as I mentioned before

This Scott voice actor is SO much better than TAS guy

MIRI: Yeah, they really are fun. I totally forgot that it takes them so long to get together

In part because they’re clearly endgame from the beginning

CAROLINE: "Boring couples who take a long time to get together" is my favorite thing in the world

MIRI: And in part because my heart always lay with Rogue and I had a lot of sympathy for her doomed crush, since Scott clearly loved Jean

Hahahahaha

Also, they both have amazing hair

CAROLINE: SO amazing

Although I feel like this version of Jean is a little off somehow?

MIRI: Scott’s little floppy front bits are the most of the era thing

How so?

CAROLINE: From her comic book characterization I mean

I'm not sure I would immediately see her as a popular star athlete

Her empathy is spot on

MIRI: Yeah, I think they felt like that was a high school archetype they had to use or something

CAROLINE: But in my mind she would be a student council leader or something

Well-liked but maybe not "popular" in the conventional sense

MIRI: The perfect student who is perfect at everything and feels so much pressure from it feels like a story that was on every other show at the time

CAROLINE: True

MIRI: It is interesting to see an x-men (x-man?) who is popular

CAROLINE: But that is basically what I imagine for her

True!

MIRI: since they are fundamentally outsiders in so many ways

I wonder if a non-mutant friend/frenemy who inhabited that spot would have worked better

CAROLINE: There’s an interesting subtext in X-Men about mutants that can "pass" as human.

Especially with Kurt as a kind of POV character in the premiere

MIRI: VERY!

CAROLINE: Who obviously has such a bigger hurdle than Jean when it comes to joining normal society

MIRI: They did interesting (and unfortunately on the nose) things with that concept re: Beast and Mystique in First Class

And here it’s less explicitly addressed but I feel like I’m ok with that

CAROLINE: Agreed. And TAS doesn't necessarily delve into much at all

TAS kind of focuses on the big social metaphors

Whereas Evolution is about the personal side of being a mutant

MIRI: The opening Toad stuff delves into this a bit too--those guys made a lot of toad puns/insults for people who didn’t know he was a mutant

CAROLINE: And both are super compelling parts of the X-Men franchise!

MIRI: And I think the contrast of that kind of thing versus the loving “fuzzy elf” comments to Kurt from the other Xmen is interesting

Yeah, there’s a lot of different ways to use the “mutants as other” thing well

CAROLINE: I will say, while Evolutions is incredibly watchable, the episodes we watched could also feel a little shallow?

TAS crams WAY more story into 20 minutes than Evolutions seem to

MIRI: Yeah, I will not argue with that

CAROLINE: Even if it does so in a pretty stilted way

MIRI: I think this is a very clear shift to the idea that kids shows should be about kids and Kid Things

CAROLINE: Agreed

Kind of talking down to the audience at times.

MIRI: They do more than that sometimes, and there are episodes that deal with more serialized plot elements that we didn’t watch

But for the most part they are simple stories with not a whole ton going on

CAROLINE: But with solid nuance in the subtext!

MIRI: true!

CAROLINE: Just not maybe in the actual storytelling

MIRI: exactly

I think it was very much designed to be watched as a Saturday morning cartoon, in a block with like 5 other shows

CAROLINE: But I could still totally see myself watching more when I'm bored someday

They are fun and sweet and require very little from you

MIRI: I might be wrong about that, but that’s how I remember it

CAROLINE: Whereas TAS tends to feel drawn out

In a way that's both good and bad

MIRI: Yeah, it’s very easy to just let Evolutions play on autoplay

I did really love the concept of one of these episodes though, and it will probably surprise no one which it was

CAROLINE: Ha! The Rogue one?

MIRI: Actually not! I like the character moments in that a lot, but as a discrete episode concept “Walk on the Wild Side” may be one of my favorite things that has ever happened

CAROLINE: Oh yeah that one was abused and delightful

MIRI: I mean it’s kind of terrible and every genre show ever has done version of it

CAROLINE: *absurd

MIRI: but is adored it

*I

CAROLINE: It's very fun!

MIRI: A musical roller blading superhero girl gang getting dressed and bonding sequence is basically what’s lacking from all current superhero media.

(That and enough female characters of consequence to actually have a girl gang. SHADE INTENDED)

CAROLINE: And a random music video sequence!

Please see the amazing music video sequence at the end of this post!

Who doesn't want one of those?

MIRI: No one I want to know

CAROLINE: I also really loved the Rogue/Jean dynamic that seems to exist throughout the series

Kind of like the Cyclops/Wolverine one in TAS

MIRI: Yes! There’s always a tension, but also a love and kind of understanding

Like, we’re both in versions of the same situation and we can hate each other or understand each other

CAROLINE: They maybe don't always get along and are sometimes rivals but there's mutual respect and admiration there

MIRI: I really like that

CAROLINE: Not making the two "rival" female characters hate each other feels pretty progressive for the early 2000s

Or for now

MIRI: Sadly true

The gender stuff is handled super clumsily and I’m pretty sure Tabitha is a full 7 years older than Amara, but I just love the girl gang dynamic they get to SO MUCH

CAROLINE: Ha! I was really not into Tabitha

But I did love Amara

MIRI: She’s annoying, but I love that she can be well intentioned and also bad at it

I mean, she’s an asshole. Honestly, stop blowing people up in the shower and shaving people’s heads

CAROLINE: Yeah she was way too much for me

MIRI: But her destroying the car and thinking that was helpful seems very true to form to me

CAROLINE: Jean's feminist rage was amazing

MIRI: Defintiely

(I cannot type that word correctly today!)

I also really loved Scott falling out of his chair

CAROLINE: And as much as I don't fully buy into Jean's characterization I do like her as an entry into the "popular girl who isn't a bitch" genre

MIRI: A rare and compelling genre!

CAROLINE: See also: Liz in Spider-Man Homecoming

MIRI: LOVED her

CAROLINE: That blonde girl in Princess and the Frog

MIRI: Also a fave

CAROLINE: It's an underserved genre

And, again, an asset of having a big ensemble cast

Lots of POVs to sympathize with

MIRI: They did a good job of letting the focus shift in different episodes

CAROLINE: And some really solid high school metaphors! The idea of being along onstage and being able to read everyone's critiques of you is legit terrifying

MIRI: There’s a pretty reliable core of Jean/Scott/Rogue, but there are definitely episodes that focus on Kitty and Kurt, or Spyke or whoever

CAROLINE: *mentally read

MIRI: This episode and the Buffy telepathy episode combined to convince me that telepathy would be a horrifying super power

CAROLINE: I remember liking Spyke a lot, although he wasn't in any of the episodes we watched for this

MIRI: I know! I’m sorry about that

CAROLINE: Although I still maintain they just should've made Storm a teen rather than giving her a nephew

MIRI: I did get to be reminded of the fact that he SKATEBOARDS INTO BATTLE though

hahahahaha noted

CAROLINE: Keep Spyke, just make her Storm's cousin or something

*him

MIRI: I like how adamant you are on this point

CAROLINE: I feel VERY strongly about it

MIRI: Does Storm being one of the adults in the (earlier) movies bother you?

CAROLINE: No because it felt like we were supposed to be equally invested in the adults and the kids there

Although Storm was definitely underutilized, which sucks

But this is CLEARLY a teen show first and foremost

MIRI: Ahhh, it’s the sidelining that bugs you. That’s a good point

Yeah, I’m with you there

CAROLINE: Although going back to costumes, Storm's costume here is pretty cool!

MIRI: The adults don’t have plots, with the sort of exception of Mystique

CAROLINE: Not as iconic as in TAS but a sleek update

MIRI: Yes! Basically Storm is always amazing looking

CAROLINE: I was pretty happy with all the designs

Kitty's collar was adorable

Jean's costume is MUCH more flattering than in TAS

MIRI: I have serious questions about Mystique’s little skull details around her waist

Yeah, Jean upgraded

Rogue’s goth outfits are obviously amazing

CAROLINE: I have serious questions about Mystique in this series

MIRI: YES, please ask them

I do too

How long did Mystique raise Rogue? Like, did she take 5-10 years off of being Magneto’s henchwoman? Was she a stay at home mom? did she have a day job?

CAROLINE: I guess mainly just: Does she need to be here?

Ahahah

Different lines of questioning

But those too!

MIRI: Let’s do yours first, because there’s no way to answer mine

CAROLINE: She just felt out of place to me

Not sure if it's a performance thing or what

MIRI: I like her as a betrayer for Rogue, and the danger being right there in the school in a way they couldn’t fight

I feel like it may have worked better if we’d watched the whole arc, but I may just be being generous in my recollections

CAROLINE: No that's super fair

I think she was just WAY too much of a cackling villain in the premiere

And I kind of tuned out

MIRI: The moments where she talked to shadow monster Magneto (which, what even??) did feel really out of place to me

CAROLINE: Again, I kind of just want it to be a low stakes (but high for the characters) high school show

MIRI: I wonder if it was a case of the writers wanting to do the big plotty arcs like Apocalypse but not knowing how to marry them with the high school problem of the week thing

CAROLINE: Without the mythology stuff

Yeah there's clashing creative impulses there for sure

MIRI: Yeah, I think you’re right

Honestly, I didn’t remember anything about magneto or Apocalypse in this series

Not a bit

But I could have described the scene where Jean is floating in the air surrounded by stuff and they all try to help her in perfect detail

CAROLINE: Totally

MIRI: They definitely did a much better job with the teen stuff, you’re right

CAROLINE: Secretly I don't care about plot at all

I just want character moments

That's how I feel about TAS too

I don't remember storylines but I remember Storm's claustrophobia.

MIRI: I didn’t know she was claustrophobic

That’s so relatable

I love it

CAROLINE: Yes! It's SUCH a great character detail

She's an all-powerful goddess

But also has a completely relatable fear

I think there's an episode where a building collapses and she's trapped in rubble

MIRI: Also it makes total sense because her powers would not help at all

CAROLINE: I remember finding that SO compelling as a kid

MIRI: Ahhhhh that is a nightmare to me

(I actually am claustrophobic)

CAROLINE: I always relate to characters way more through their weaknesses than their strengths

YOU ARE STORM

MIRI: I HAVE NEVER BEEN SO FLATTERED

M: Look at Storm, living her best life, raising some plants, being an inspiration

K: One of the great sorrows of the movie rights separation of the X-Men from the MCU is that we may never see Storm as the Black Panther’s One Who Got Away (or, well, The One His Marriage to Whom He Annulled Because an X-Man Flooded the Capital of Wakanda While Possessed by a Fragment of the Phoenix Force)

M: I have a lot of questions

Actually that’s a lie: I was once told that I looked like the female leader of an otherwise male motor cycle gang

CAROLINE: Ha!

MIRI: And while it’s utterly untrue and ridiculous, I hold that compliment close to my heart to this day

CAROLINE: As you should!

MIRI: I look like a preschool teacher more than anything else, but I want to look like a motor cycle gang leader

At least the tv version of one

CAROLINE: You can be both

MIRI: Thank you ❤️

CAROLINE: Preschoolers are just a mini motorcycle gang

MIRI: that is SO true

Ok, one more episode that I do want to talk about specifically--the Rogue one, aka “Self Possessed”

I like that this storyline totally follows the same early beats as “Power Surge” and they have zero shame about it. They even show flashes of scenes from “Power Surge” in the cold open

CAROLINE: And I enjoyed both episodes!

MIRI: Same!

I’m also really impressed on an animation front--all of these transformations must have been a job and a half

CAROLINE: The Evolutions animation style is just so much more pleasing to watch

MIRI: Yeah, I’m way more into this one visual

CAROLINE: Even as I can appreciate the detail of TAA

MIRI: *visually

CAROLINE: *TAS

I do think "Self Possessed" gets a little style over substance at the end though

As I think Evolutions often does

MIRI: Yeah, it’s that light on story, heavy on Coolness thing again

CAROLINE: Yeah they could've crammed a lot more story in there I think

As TAS makes clear, even separate from the multi-episode structure

MIRI: The amount of story they did have definitely could have happened in 12 minutes or so

Made super clear by the way they reused clips--we only watched 3 other episodes, and we’d already seen several chunks of this episode

Also, I really can’t tell if Sabertooth has plot lines or if he just shows up to cause some indiscriminate violence whenever they need it

CAROLINE: I feel like that's what Sabertooth is best at

MIRI: I know that’s not super relevant in this episode, but it reminded me of it

That’s fair

Also, he seems to be Wolverine’s dad in this iteration??

CAROLINE: I love how drastically storylines can change between iterations

MIRI: Or maybe it was brother, which is what I think they are in other versions. I don’t know.

K: Just in X-Men Origins: Wolverine, which was so bad that the Days of Future Past movie retconned most of it out of existence.

M: I may have read the graphic novelization prequel to the Wolverine origins movie.

Yeah, same toys in drastically different sandboxes

Oh, on that score--Can Mystique transform into animals in other iterations?

CAROLINE: Ooh good question!

I'm not sure

K: Not originally, but I haven’t gone through all the alternate reality versions

MIRI: It was very cool but also kind of felt like cheating to me

CAROLINE: She changes into a statue in the first live action movie

So there's that

MIRI: Ohhh, the mini state of liberty? Am I remembering that right?

CAROLINE: Yes!

MIRI: Hmmmmmm, but did she actually change to statue, or just to be a woman who looks like a statue?

Either way it’s very cool

CAROLINE: Very

Okay so I think my thesis here is that TAS and Evolutions are different in intention and flawed in different ways, but they're both GREAT with characters in their own ways.

MIRI: Agreed!

For all “Self Possessed” is story light, I do like the question of identity Rogue is always wrestling with in the face of multiple people in her head

That’s very high school/human

CAROLINE: For sure! And they do cool stuff with that in the movies as well

Kind of

MIRI: Yeah, especially the first one. Then they move more into how do I be myself when I’m so limited in how I can touch people and express myself to the world

Which is also cool and important

CAROLINE: God, X-Men are just the best

I love sci-fi as metaphor

Or superheroes as metaphor

MIRI: Me too

Honestly, one of my least favorite things about the MCU and now the DCEU is that superheroes are so Adult now

Because the exploration of it all as metaphor for teenage things is so right to me

But obviously that’s not all they can/should be used for!

Look at the government business in the beginning of the first Xmen movie

CAROLINE: X-Men as a franchise is truly always relevant

In so many ways

MIRI: That’s such solid use of sci fi as 1:1 metaphor for real life. And it’s done SO well

I really just love the Xmen franchise a lot

CAROLINE: I must say, there's one area in which TAS is CLEARLY superior to every other X-Men iteration

And that's the THEME SONG

MIRI: hahahahahahhaha

CAROLINE: Maybe the best superhero theme song ever

K: So good that this fan-made alternate title sequence for X-Men: First Class riffs on it in a cool-yet-unsettling way. (But my favorite superhero theme is probably Shirley Walker’s Danny Elfman-based Batman theme for the 90s-early 2000s DC cartoons.)

MIRI: BUT you must admit that the individual stylings of the names in the Evolution credits are delightful

CAROLINE: Sure sure. But it has nothing on that music

MIRI: Also the fact that the “credits” have their mutant names, not character names or actors’

CAROLINE: Which I was truly jamming out to while watching these eps

MIRI: Yes, the TAS music is better

CAROLINE: I had the same thought!

About the names

It's adorable

MIRI: Yes!

CAROLINE: And genuinely helpful for new viewers

MIRI: I am utterly mindblown that the two shows were so close together chronologically, because they’re so stylistically different

On every front

CAROLINE: The 90s to early 2000s was a surprisingly big shift

MIRI: TAS ran from 92-97, and Exolution was 2000-2003

(I saw that typo and left it in because I love it)

CAROLINE: And I think both series are REALLY tethered to the eras in which they were released

MIRI: Yeah, they 97 to 2000 jump sounds short, but it looks like TAS stayed very true to itself, so it’s really a difference  between a show started in 92 and one started in 2000, which is much more different

CAROLINE: Agreed

MIRI: Honestly I thought TAS was 80s at first

CAROLINE: It very much feels like that

Again because I think it was so influenced by the comics

MIRI: Whereas Evolution is so self consciously “current”

CAROLINE: And pulls almost entirely from that aesthetic

MIRI: Like, Scott has his stupid sunglasses

Which are so early 2000s and so clearly too flimsy for their intended purpose

CAROLINE: Ha! Totally

Okay: Have we reach any grand X-conclusions here?

MIRI: We seem to mostly think that all X-iterations are good X-iterations

Which may not be earth shattering, but I think is a good thing to explore

They’re trying to do very different things and mostly succeeding

CAROLINE: And that X-Men are a flexible enough idea to handle many different concepts

MIRI: Also, media creators should trust their audiences more than they usually do

CAROLINE: Which I suppose is why they were invented in the first place!

MIRI: Which is true both in TAS and Evolutions, but in different ways!

True!

Basically, it’s a great franchise and should be in everyone’s top 3 at the very least

CAROLINE: There's something for everyone in X-Men!

K: I have a special fondness for Colossus, whom I always played in the old arcade game, and who is the best part of Deadpool. Something something afraid of vulnerability something...

MIRI: What surprised you the most upon rewatch of each?

CAROLINE: Probably the depth of the character drama in both actually

MIRI: Yeah, I would have to agree there. That and how much I loved TAS Rogue. All Rogues are good Rogues, apparently

CAROLINE: #RogueForever

#BlastedSalami

MIRI: Oh, I meant to ask you--why is Jean Grey your favorite character?

CAROLINE: I really love female characters who are super powerful but also afraid and uncertain about their powers

Going back to the "flaws are relatable" thing

And I love that she's fundamentally good

Which I think some people dismiss as "boring"

But which I really love in superheroes

MIRI: That makes total sense and I think I have not given Jean Grey her due in the past

CAROLINE: She's a very easy character to overlook I think

MIRI: I’ve never been anti Jean, just never thought about her that much

Exactly

Well then I’m glad we got some good Jean focus in here!

CAROLINE: Also I feel like the male X-Men always get the most focus

MIRI: Ughhhhhhh so true

CAROLINE: So I'm glad we took a different approach

Rogue and Jean forever!

MIRI: Rogue and Jean forever!!!

CAROLINE: Separately or together

Thanks so much to Caroline for joining us! Remember to follow her on Twitter, and if you feel like it, us too.

X-Men: Evolution is streaming on Hulu.

Of course, we couldn’t leave you without the very early-aughts opening titles:

Plus, the entirety of Bayville Sirens musical superhero suit-up sequence. Please watch it, because life is hard and you deserve good things:

BOB: 9.5 

ANDREW: ...8?

BOB: Maybe cause i am sucker for the non verbal acting in the first half and the syncing of music with action 

ANDREW: That's true. The non verbal acting was top notch.

KRIS: I’m probably a 6.5 - 7? I liked but didn’t love it, and the framing for my expectations is that I follow approximately 3 million film critics on Twitter and everyone who saw the movie screen at Austin L O V E D it

MIRI: I’m somewhere around a 6.5 or a 7. It’s totally fun! The performances are great! But it’s also pretty lazy in some ways and has some plot issues. But the action is GREAT

KRIS: The physicality of Baby was definitely great

(Do we know that actor from anything?)

BOB: Fault in our stars

MIRI: Kris, I love you

He’s also in the Divergent films

and he’s the new Han Solo

ANDREW: He is also in baby driver

MIRI: This definitely seems like a step away from the teen heartthrob of it all for him

KRIS: The new Han Solo is Alden Ehrenreich. Same initials, different dude

MIRI: Ohhh oops

BOB: Fact check - han solo is alden something

They look very alike though!

MIRI: Was Elgort in the mix at one point or am I 100% wrong?

BOB: However... he is credited as Ansolo in Bad Santa 2

Yes he was

MIRI: Ok, that makes me feel slightly better

BOB: Damn this guy is only 23!

MIRI: OOOhhh, Alden Ehrenreich is the kid from Beautiful Creatures

I’m never going to get them fully separate in my head now

ANDREW: Bob! Don't look at ages!

It's depressing.

KRIS: (To our guests: we also have frequent and lengthy digressions)

(we very briefly tried to fight it but we know our limits)

MIRI: My favorite person in this movie was definitely Joseph, the foster dad

ANDREW: My favorite was Kevin spacey's kid.

KRIS: I kind of wished we’d gotten more of Jon Bernthal but I did love the Joseph scenes

OH YEAH

He was great

ANDREW: Oh my god, yes! I thought Jon was gonna come back!

I almost forgot he was in the movie.

BOB: Back to BD, BOB is very interested in getting his hands on seeing how much of the movie was motivated by the actual words on the page. A bevy of characters like the nephew and Jon Bernthals limited scenes. Heck even the small bits like the postal worker were interesting

MIRI: I liked the interactions with the postal worker

The headshake played really nicely

BOB: One plot hole for me was who was the hero that tried to ram them (The Flea/Brian Tee trio) because that guy had some guns on him

KRIS: I did really like how IMMEDIATELY everything went to shit in that moment

The second act really dragged for me but I thought this started and ended really strong

MIRI: That’s the plot hole that bothers you?

KRIS: Say more BOB

ANDREW: Damn you good Samaritan! 

BOB: Seemed like a setup that wasn't fully explained. Was Brian Tee's character in on it? Is that why he got s bullet in the head? Or was it more so over the fact that he fucked up 3 times

MIRI: He seemed like an ex-military hired security guy to me

BOB: Mike myers, dragged getting into car, left his shotgun

KRIS: I think he was just a Good Samaritan but he had a Marine Corps hat

BOB: I noticed that hat too but unsure if there was a fix there

MIRI: Oh, I thought it was additional hired security since there had been so many robberies lately

BOB: Miri good point!!!

KRIS: Oh, I didn’t think about it after the movie but in the moment I thought the lost shotgun would come back to bite them

ANDREW: Ooooh that's smart. ... I hope that it.

BOB: Yes likewise about the shotgun 

MIRI: Yeah, I definitely thought the shotgun would come back

I did like the clear willingness to take out allies like that

BOB: What plotholes bugged you MS?

MIRI: BUT that makes me buy Doc helping Baby TO THE EXPENSE OF HIS OWN LIFE even less

BOB: Yes that was good. Start of seeing how Bats was real fucked up

KRIS: Yeah, I did like the setup of Doc’s operation a lot

BOB: Bats killed him

Not Doc

MIRI: I get the weird affection, but that carried it way beyond believability to me.

There’s no planting of that (at least not any that works for me)

ANDREW: I don't know. I bought doc helping baby.

MIRI: Oh, Bats killed him? How do we know that?

BOB: "Moment you catch feelings, moment you catch a bullet."

KRIS: But it would’ve been on Doc’s orders, right?

MIRI: But the guy didn’t catch feelings, he was just bad at his job

BOB: He was already riled up. And he is very trigger happy

Perhaps Docs orders but he didn't seem type to get dirty.

He caught a feeling of being dumb then! Lol

MIRI: I don’t buy Doc helping Baby. Baby destroyed his whole operation, put his actual loved ones in jeopardy, and is now leaving him meaning he can’t pull any jobs for/with him ever again. Plus Doc definitely seems like a survivor above all else, which helping Baby totally invalidates

BOB: Would it have made sense if say Doc was like a relative ala how we see him train the nephew?

MIRI: Sure, but he’s not

BOB: I thought it was gonna go in that direction

ANDREW: You’re right, but he essentially raised Baby and worked with him for like a decade. Albeit forcefully. Do you really think after all that doc would just shoot baby in the face?

However logical it seems?

MIRI: For the level of betrayal Baby has just given him, maybe

ANDREW: Doc seems likes family man to me.

MIRI: Or at least let him twist on the rope he’s put up himself

ANDREW: A sick

KRIS: I buy Doc not killing Baby, if not the risks he then takes on Baby’s behalf

MIRI: He definitely seems like a family man, but I don’t think he treats Baby as family enough to justify the turn for me

ANDREW: That fair.

MIRI: Agreed

KRIS: I think meeting his son, and seeing how the kid is totally well adjusted, is part of setting that up

BOB: Doc shooting up people was a stretch 

MIRI: The kid was his nephew, I think

BOB: I buy the take this money and run angle a lot

Yes nephew

ANDREW: Then baby is the son he never had!

Son of a bitch!

MIRI: But he’s clearly close with him--watches movies with him, etc. He doesn’t spend time with Baby outside of business

BOB: He bought him dinner!

ANDREW: He bought him dinner!

MIRI: i’m with Kris--I don’t think he would have killed Baby necessarily, but he goes way further than I believe

He bought him dinner once, and partially as a chance to threaten Debbie and get Baby back into the game

BOB: He talks to him perhaps more so whenever he picks up him for a job

KRIS: I can sort of see dots to connect from Doc being willing to order terrible things but deliberately distancing himself from them to avoid catching feelings, because he knows or suspects that if he gets too close then he’ll stop being the criminal mastermind he wants to be

MIRI: He’s clearly closer with him than with most employees, I’m not denying that!

I just don’t think they put in enough groundwork to make me believe the turn

KRIS: I don’t think the movie does that work for you

MIRI: The movie expects me to buy emotional connections that it doesn’t show on a couple of fronts

The fact that Deborah is willing to run away with a guy she BARELY knows is ridiculous

BOB: Stop trying to catch feelings Miri!!! Bats may be listening!

ANDREW: Bro, that train I can get on.

MIRI: Even without the bank robber, just shot someone right in front of her thing

ANDREW: I kind of wanted Debra to say "thanks but no thanks" in act three.

That would have been a funny twist.

MIRI: I would have been into that

BOB: It happens... maybe she felt protected?? But they do have moments where they are similar. The love for the road, the music, the need and want to escape 

Maybe she was tired of the old humdrum reality of things

ANDREW: But baby just shot a man at the diner

BOB: Ala Thelma and Louise

MIRI: Right, they have the building blocks for dating, but not “Run away from everyone you’ve ever known with me forever”

Thelma and Louise were lifelong friends

BOB: I'm comparing the desire versus status of relationship length

MIRI: Baby and Deborah have had like 7 conversations

KRIS: (Oh god for like days I’ve been confusing Lily Collins with Lily James)

ANDREW: Most of them are about names.

MIRI: (Me too! Can I blame you this time??)

KRIS: (Yes, because you were there when I did it out loud)

BOB: Too many Lilys and Han Solo look alikes!!

MIRI: BOB: Right, but the “you jump I jump” of it all makes sense because of the love that’s already there. You don’t risk it all for a virtual stranger Basically, I think some of the relationships are weak. They knew what marks they wanted/needed to hit, but didn’t do the work of getting there well

KRIS: I think they do establish that Debora doesn’t have anything in her life early on, but I agree that across the board the movie wants me to make emotional leaps that it doesn’t work to achieve

HOWEVER

MIRI: When there’s an actual depth of relationship like between Baby and Joseph it WORKS

Buddy and Darling work

KRIS: For the sake of argument, there’s this “all the characters in Baby Driver are archetypes” case I’ve seen floated

MIRI: (we have three spellings of Debora’s name going and Kris is right about it)

KRIS: Which doesn’t work for me, but I want to know how you feel about it

In fairness, I have IMDB open

MIRI: Eh. Feels like an excuse. Especially when there are the examples of genuine emotional connections

ANDREW: Can we talk about how there are only two female characters in the movie? 1 is a love interest and the other is fodder for Jon Hamm to be the villain?

MIRI: I would say that Debora and Darling fit the Madonna/Whore archetypes to a disturbing level

KRIS: AND EIZA GONZALEZ IS 20 YEARS JON HAMM’S JUNIOR

ANDREW: Genre be damned. That's a little ridiculous.

MIRI: more than a little

BOB: Hmmm interesting point Andrew! But what about the Mom? So 3?

KRIS: She’s not a “character”

MIRI: The mom isn’t a character

ANDREW: Fodder for baby to have tinnitus?

MIRI: she’s an excuse for maintain

*manpain

BOB: Ahh man pain 

MIRI: She has no arc or actions, and her only voice is filtered through Baby

Also, they do an interesting thing of rarely showing her face fully, which I assume is due to his memories being limited/fading

and it’s very cool on that front

BOB: Ditto with Miri

MIRI: but also she’s about 1/4 of the women in the entire film and we barely see or hear her

it’s not great

Can we take a moment to imagine how much more interesting the Buddy/Darling dynamic would have been if their ages and roles were reversed?

Just for fun

ANDREW: No. I was kind of hoping for something more out of Darling. But then she got shot... a lot.

BOB: Maybe if Doc was a female then perhaps the whole giving themself up in Act 3 seems more believable

MIRI: Because I would have been totally there for that

ANDREW: I was just thinking that Miri!

BOB: She got shot the fuck up

This movie put the female characters through the ringer in terms distress and pain

MIRI: The whole benevolent tolerance of Baby thing that Buddy does would have hit so harder from a potential mother figure when it went away

Yeah, it’s very lazy on that front. And--much as we love him!--not super surprising from Wright

He doesn’t seem to hate women by any stretch, he just doesn’t really seem to think of them much

KRIS: I want writer-directors like Edgar Wright and Christopher Nolan to have to take a seminar co-taught by like, Ava Duvernay and Patty Jenkins

MIRI: Is there more than one female character of note in any of the films he’s written and directed (not based on preexisting property)?

BOB: Now you have me catching feelings... questioning my overall thoughts

MIRI: YES

Also, I want to take those seminars too!

Sorry, BOB

BOB: Sign me up

MIRI: But also not sorry because it’s important to be critical of the media we love!

And the dude is clearly smart and awesome and I expect better of him

ANDREW: True that!

MIRI: Female Baby would have been interesting too

BOB: Very true... i guess I was caught up with the beauty of the action and syncs with music. Didn't take a step back to examine the archetypes 

I'm down to an 8 now

KRIS: I do think that Lily James and Eliza Gonzalez both do a lot with a little, but I also want to point out that that’s something actresses in every genre and every budget range have to do all the time

MIRI: SO true

KRIS: Also here is a tweet for Miri:

https://twitter.com/carolineframke/status/880639492025090048

MIRI: HAHAHHAHAHA

BOB: Still thinking about your posed question

MIRI: I love Caroline Framke

KRIS: About reversing the age dynamic?

BOB: I loved Lily James in this

KRIS: I’m trying to think of who I’d like to see in that reversal

BOB: Daisy Ridley?

MIRI: Ooh

BOB: Or in the Buddy / Darling?

MIRI: Wait, Daisy Ridley as female Baby? I’d be into that

KRIS: Buddy/Darling I mean

Ohhhh

BOB: Helen Mirren / Dave Franco 

KRIS: I don’t know that she’s my first choice but I could see it

MIRI: Ooh, interesting! Even more of an age gap, but I’m not it

ANDREW: No... James Franco. 

Spring breeeeeeak

MIRI: Maybe Marisa Tomei and someone?

BOB: Susan Sarandon / Zac Efron

MIRI: (Spring Break fo’evaaaaa)

BOB: Ahh Marisa! Aunt freaking May

KRIS: I almost went with like Kate Beckinsale/anyone but then I thought about all the thinkpieces about movies/TV that keep pairing brown men with white women

MIRI: She’s a similar level of hot and unexpected for a vicious role like this

GINA TORRES

GINA TORRES AND SOME HOT YOUNG DUDE

BOB: Hmmm let's switch it up.... Viola Davis / White dude

KRIS: Or like Jennifer Lopez

Jennifer Lopez would’ve killed in this

BOB: Ahhh J Loooooo

MIRI: Omg yes to both of those

BOB: J lo and Drake

MIRI: Drake’s not young enough, is he?

ANDREW: De age him 

MIRI: Ooh ooh ooh, John Boyega

JLo and John Boyega

BOB: No he seems to big in size

For J Los taste

MIRI: This tangent has gone wildly afield and I like it

KRIS: This is making me think we should make fan-cast pieces a regular thing on Reacting to Something, not that it’s super original but it would be fun

BOB: But i like that it'd be interesting to see her be the one in control and she is super tiny

MIRI: YES LET”S DO THAT

BOB: slap hands!! Yes

MIRI: I think JLo could play that

KRIS: It’s also making me think of a writing exercise Writing Teacher likes to suggest, where you have a stack of locations, a stack of actors, and a stack of genres on index cards, and you draw randomly and have to come up with loglines

BOB: 

MIRI: Wait why are we not doing that as a party game?

KRIS: Oh she also always includes tequila when she says this

MIRI: I am IN

KRIS: Literally always

BOB: I like tequila

That would be a fun game 

MIRI: I might do gin instead sometimes, but I am IN

KRIS: We’ve never actually done it but she likes it as a brainstorming thing

MIRI: ok, we should maybe talk some more about Baby Driver

Let’s talk about the awesome music some, because it really was great!

KRIS: Yeah

BOB: Actually I have a game like that minus the whole actors/ actresses names

KRIS: You still have to write a Saoirse Ronan movie, BOB

Film school cohort reference, sorry readers

ANDREW: I would like to talk about something I did really like though, and that was the use and portrayal of tinnitus. I know a few people with the condition, one more severe. But whenever there isn't music, there is a faint ringing in the sound.

KRIS: (I like that the all caps just comes off as accusatory)

MIRI: Say more, Andrew

ANDREW: How it’s something he lives with, but it's also his biggest weakness.

Like when Jon Hamm blows out his ducking hearing at the end.

BOB: Don't remind me Kris :-(

MIRI: Oh I misread that as something you DIDN’T like, whoops

ANDREW: Fucking*

MIRI: OMG that was such a vicious move!

Honestly, I didn’t expect it

And I may have jumped in my seat a little

BOB: It was vicious and a great line/scene

MIRI: Totally

KRIS: Yeah

MIRI: I expected the whole kill your girl thing, but the hearing was a great touch

ANDREW: It's just nice to see people acknowledge that it exists. And having it shown with accuracy.

MIRI: Did anyone else not super buy his whole Quirky Thing?

ANDREW: Which quirky thing? There are like 30z

MIRI: Exactly

KRIS: And whose quirky thing?

MIRI: Baby’s

It felt like a very deliberate persona

ANDREW: It did, yeah.

KRIS: I mostly bought the mixtape stuff etc. as an extension of his obsession with music between both the tinnitus and his mom

MIRI: I liked him a lot when he wasn’t performing--when he’s dancing around in the apartment, etc--but as just a dude on the street who doesn’t care that he’s walking out in front of people all the damn time it’s a bit much

The mixtapes I buy

ANDREW: I liked that he had 5 pairs of sunglasses.

KRIS: I actually bought his clumsiness on the street because I read it as a cost to having to pump music into his ears all the time

MIRI: And the iPods, now that I’ve read the Edgar Wright explanation that he finds them (and the sunglasses) in cars

BOB: I can understand it as him thinking its a little game the first time he does that

But yeah running into people is just rude!! Expected someone to deck him

ANDREW: Ooooh I like that he finds them in cars.

MIRI: He just felt like he was trying really hard to be weird a lot of the time

(Right? that’s a nice detail!)

ANDREW: I didn't even think of that. But I love it!

MIRI: But then again, he only feels comfortable with a very small number of people, so I guess a persona is not surprising

BOB: Just thought of anther Baby - Chloe Grace Moretz! 

KRIS: I’ll say I didn’t really buy him as turning out to be a badass

MIRI: And the bigness of it all makes a lot of sense with Joseph, since ASL relies pretty heavily on exaggerated gesture to convey tone

KRIS: I’m going to pitch Saoirse Ronan, who is also 23

MIRI: Really? It semi made sense to me as an extension of his driving insanity

KRIS: Not just because I’m giving BOB shit

Hmm

MIRI: omg YES to Saoirse Ronan

KRIS: (BOB have you seen Hanna yet?)

MIRI: Like, he’s super willing to take risks and put it all on the line when driving. He doesn’t have a desire to be violent, but when put in the position to be I believe him capable

BOB: Yeah not a badass. The him running and jumping scene when he escaped and jumps over the car was a little crazy. Only reason I could see it being believable is because he had a pull up bar in hid kitchen and he might work out or like to swing around and shit.

MIRI: (I haven’t seen Hanna yet and I know I need to)

KRIS: (I FORGOT YOU HAVEN’T SEEN IT)

BOB: (no ... stop making BOB feel bad)

MIRI: Him being able to outrun the cops surprised me some

(I KNOW, I KNOW)

ANDREW: I... also haven't seen it.

BOB: (Let's watch Hanna Miri)

MIRI: (Is ist streaming anywhere??)

KRIS: I almost bought the parkour-lite, because it seemed to be an extension of how in tune he is with his physicality

ANDREW: Sorry Kris.

BOB: (Checking Netflix)

MIRI: Yeah, that makes sense. Except that I’m also supposed to be ok with him being super clumsy and unaware other times

KRIS: I forgive you Andrew

MIRI: Maybe it’s all a matter of focus?

KRIS: (Miri/BOB Guest Reaction!)

BOB: (no sadly)

MIRI: (I’m checking Amazon)

BOB: Yes matter of focus like an adrenaline rush??

ANDREW: Yeah, probably.

KRIS: That and it doesn’t involve him in direct confrontation with another human

BOB: (No to amazon)

KRIS: the same way driving is impersonal

ANDREW: I empathize with that.

MIRI: (rentable, though. We could do a watching party sometime)

KRIS: I own Hanna

MIRI: (Oh, sweet)

KRIS: should’ve led with that

MIRI: Way to abandon the parentheses convention too

KRIS: SORRY

MIRI: 😉 

SOMEONE TALK ABOUT THE MUSIC IN BABY DRIVER

I liked it

ANDREW: Is there a reason half the convo is in parenthesis?

MIRI: Yes, because it was an aside about Hanna, not anyhting about Baby Driver

KRIS: I thought it worked the way Wright wanted it to, and BOB and I talked about how it’s almost like the logical next step of what Guardians of the Galaxy does with its music supervision

MIRI: it theoretically helps keep this tangle all straight when you read it

Does it, readers?

BOB: I liked how he used the music to drive (pun intended) a lot of the action and dialogue 

MIRI: Hmmm, how so, Kris?

ANDREW: Ooooooooooooooh. I get it.

MIRI: Also, how many steps between this and the jukebox musical format? Because I feel like it’s getting close

KRIS: But we’ve previously established on this blog that I much prefer instrumental scores to needle drops, and at some point that’s more a taste thing than an artistic criticism

MIRI: Not that I mind that

ANDREW: Like one. Baby needs to actually sing.

BOB: Wright had the music in mind as he wrote it ala James Gunn but it does more than just be backdrop music or something that comes on when play is clicked

MIRI: Kris hates excessive needle drops so much, you guys

BOB: I love needle drops

MIRI: Does the fact that it’s all diagetic make it more palatable, Kris?

KRIS: I guess what I mean -- and BOB please interject here -- is that Guardians uses really well chosen needle drops as a critical part of Peter’s emotional arc

Yes

ANDREW: I agree with that too, actually.

KRIS: And Baby Driver takes that to 11 by syncing it to the physical action

MIRI: I’m with you

BOB: Like the Jamie Foxx scene where he tells him to play something funky --> shootout --> Tequila line

KRIS: That like half-second shot of Buddy cocking Darling’s pistol in time with the music in the warehouse gunfight is super cool

BOB: The music itself lended to the shootout scene

KRIS: And of course the timing of Buddy’s shots in the shootout with the cops when Darling gets killed

ANDREW: That was pretty sweet!

MIRI: I also liked him making them wait for him to restart the song on the second job

BOB: Whenever a drum banged, a gun shot rang out

ANDREW: That's me. That's what I would do.

MIRI: God, that one was screwed from the beginning, wasn’t it?

KRIS: Yeah, and I read that partly as a way he has to compensate for his hearing being compromised

BOB: Haha yes it was Miri

MIRI: Yeah, the shooting synchronization was obviously awesome

KRIS: Presumably he knows all the streets of Atlanta really well so he figures out his route ahead of time and syncs it to his playlist

Have any of you been to Atlanta?

Or I guess spent serious time there?

MIRI: Yes, but it was about 6 years ago and I didn’t drive

So no

ANDREW: Nope!

KRIS: I’ve seen/heard different opinions on how well it’s used as a location

And I was just curious if any of you knew it well enough to comment

BOB: I've seen the show... that count?

MIRI: Yeah, lots of relief that something shot in Atlanta is actually being presented as Atlanta instead of New York or whatever

But some people feel like they kept it very surface level, right?

KRIS: Right

Almost touristy, I guess is that line of thought

MIRI: I’ll agree that it didn’t have a particularly Atlanta feel in anything other than Baby’s accent (which ALWAYS surprised me every time he opened his mouth)

BOB: Yes much relief!! I liked that. Wish they had used Ludacris now that i think about it in the soundtrack... but perhaps since he is in F&F probably thought otherwise

KRIS: Hahaha

BOB: It felt somewhat like a different city when he walkef around during the coffee runs

Driving on the highways too.

This move may have been Miri’s favorite thing Baby did all movie

So it didn't have the NYC or LA feel to it

KRIS: Yeah, the first coffee run scene for sure definitely felt distinct in that way

“for sure definitely”

shut up Kris

MIRI: Don’t tell yourself to shut up, Kris

ANDREW: I didn't really realize it was in Atlanta. To me it was nameless city.

But, I don't know anything about Atlanta, so... *shrug*

Can I tell Kris to shut up?

KRIS: I also had that!

The not realizing where it was exactly

And yes

BOB: (Gonna be driving for next 10 mins - so a little radio silence on my part)

It felt like a Southern city though

Thanks to the accents

ANDREW: Good! I'm glad I'm not the only one, Kris. Now shit your pie hole!

KRIS: I need to get better at placing accents

MIRI: I guess the food didn’t feel very regional to me, and I would have expected it to

Better like you didn’t pick up that they were Southern? Or better like you didn’t read it as Atlanta specifically?

ANDREW: The second one, for me personally.

KRIS: Both that I definitely didn’t read Atlanta specifically, and that while I recognized Southern accents I didn’t connect the dots to “oh this is in the South”

MIRI: I don’t think most people not from the South would read it as Atlanta specifically, so I wouldn’t worry about that

KRIS: Partly because I think Southern accents are sometimes used in kind of a tropey way with characters like Debora

MIRI: They so are

ANDREW: Right!!

KRIS: And I guess I’m also just used to hearing Kevin Spacey as Frank Underwood?

MIRI: Yeah, I think I am too

ANDREW: Me three.

MIRI: Ok, any points (or random thoughts) left to address? 

ANDREW: Man, the last two action films I saw had Kevin Spacey and Robin Wright in them respectively...

MIRI: What Does It Mean??

I thought the dude describing guns as cuts of meat was incredibly Extra and I liked it

ANDREW: That we are in... a house of cards?!?!

KRIS: That we need a movie where Robin Wright punches Kevin Spacey in the throat

I also liked the gun thing

Although it’s hard to beat John Wick 2 for that

BOB: Lol a house of cards?!

Need to see that still

MIRI: “we need a movie where Robin Wright punches Kevin Spacey in the throat” YES YES YES OH MY GOD YES

I just need there to be an Antiope movie

And for most if not all of it to take place on Themyscira

I NEEEEEED it

KRIS: I feel like most people would agree this is a very surface-level movie, and that where opinions diverge is on whether that’s A) deliberate and especially B) a good/cool thing

MIRI: That’s fair

Where does everyone stand on both points?

KRIS: I have definitely liked style-as-substance things very much before

I mean again, John Wick comes to mind, at least the first one for this point

MIRI: John Wick might be style over substance, but I think it’s consistently so

KRIS: And Tarsem Singh’s wild Greek mythology action movie Immortals

But I don’t know, this lost me for a good long while in the middle

ANDREW: It also very auteur. In the sense of, if you watch this film, you either learn what wright is like as a director, or recognize his directing.

KRIS: For sure

MIRI: That’s the hanging point to me--if you want that as an excuse, you can’t go deeper on some parts. You have to stay on that level and have fun there 

ANDREW: Even if there are better films in his roster.

MIRI: Yeah, you always know you’re watching an Edgar Wright film

ANDREW: For me, it's more surface than anything else. Stylish and fun, but there are much better films of his, and better stylish films in general.

I guess it depends on how much you like Edgar Wright.

KRIS: Yeah, I definitely wouldn’t put this in the upper half of his filmography

MIRI: It’s definitely a fun movie. I enjoyed the whole thing in the theater, with some moments of having to just accept the flaws. 

KRIS: Which I guess is why the reactions out of Austin surprised me in hindsight

Oh I did really like that Baby didn’t get away

MIRI: Basically, if you can resist pulling the threads and you want a car chase movie it’s exactly what you want

KRIS: Although I don’t know that I loved him getting out of prison early

ANDREW: Me too!!!

MIRI: Yeah, I’m surprised it’s been as critically loved as it has (and largely without caveat)

ANDREW: What a twist!!!!

MIRI: Yes, that was an actually unexpected beat and I really liked it!

KRIS: Yeah I was really like “Man, how is he going to end this?” and then he really did the right thing and went with something that felt both surprising and inevitable

MIRI: Props to Mr. Wright!

ANDREW: I was still expecting him to escape Bourne style into the water until he got the cuffs thrown on.

MIRI: That would also have been a turn

ANDREW: Like Debora would smile as Baby swims away and the action music will play.

And credits.

KRIS: And the structural success there again makes the characterization choices frustrating to me

https://twitter.com/tvoti/status/881358030016618497

MIRI: HAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHHA

KRIS: I didn’t actually CARE that much about Baby

MIRI: Well that’s not a great thing, is it?

KRIS: I would’ve dug a Bourne style ending

Although I could also see it feeling tonally more like previous Wright films than this one

Because it was such a “Fuck yeah!” moment in Ultimatum

MIRI: I think Debora should have busted out unexpected abilities and gotten them out

KRIS: And I guess this was generally more elegiac

ANDREW: The Baby Ultimatum.

MIRI: hahahahaha

KRIS: A+

ANDREW: Or the Bourne Driver?

KRIS: We need a Punder Twins reaction at some point

I’m out of stuff but I want to wait for BOB to get back to check in one more time

MIRI: Btw, if Baby’s Saoirse Ronan I still want Debora to be a girl (which I know surprises no one)

ANDREW: The Punder Twins will always be there Kris, when you need us.

MIRI: Hmmmm, what should we have them React to?

KRIS: Something they could use as a Nostalgiology tie-in

#crosspromotion

ANDREW: *Shrugs* I'm up to anything.

MIRI: ANASTASIA

Because then there can be gifs of the dress to fully convey the wonder of it and I can talk more about Anastasia

Which is always a goal

KRIS: I have not seen Anastasia

MIRI: KRIS

KRIS IT’S A GODDAMN DELIGHT

ANDREW: In the dark of the night... Kris will watch it!

Watch it!

You'll get that someday, Kris.

MIRI: ❤️ ❤️ ❤️ 

KRIS: BOB I am starting an arbitrary countdown

I am not sure what the units are

Or how many of them

But it is happening in my head

MIRI: That is the most arbitrary of arbitrary

I like it

KRIS: What was the first song in Baby Driver? Let’s do the runtime of that

MIRI: I don’t know

KRIS: 

ANDREW: I think "Bellbottoms?"

Oh hey!

KRIS: THIS IS A VERY GENEROUS COUNTDOWN BOB

ANDREW: Let's hope he doesn't... bottoms out?

IM NOT SORRY!

KRIS: Oh now that I’m listening to it this was a REALLY fun opening wasn’t it

MIRI: You’re never sorry

ANDREW: It was!!!

MIRI: It really was

Although!

KRIS: Offscreen action is almost always a fun choice

MIRI: Him operating the windshield wipers dry BOTHERED ME

KRIS: Like in Mission Impossible 3

ANDREW: They didn't do a good amount of off screen action.

KRIS: I guess it wasn’t really offscreen here

But it sort of feels like it in my hazy memory

MIRI: But it was removed--we were seeing it from a distance

KRIS: BOB has 2 minutes

ANDREW: And the heist gone wrong had off screen action too. Before the Good Samaritan got involved.

KRIS: Oh yeah and that was used pretty well as a dramatic beat rather than a comic one

MIRI: The Heist Gone Wrong is a good title

What genre would we put this in?

ANDREW: Rom com

MIRI: I’ve seen it described as a comedy and it isn’t to me

Andrew

ANDREW: What?

MIRI: If it was a rom com she’d have held him not talking to her in front of his friends against him way harder

KRIS: Oh maybe that was also part of why it didn’t totally work for me, in terms of expectations

BOB the song is over

BOB

ANDREW: I was taking about the Heist Gone Wrong as a rom com!

MIRI: A lack of communication gone horribly awry is fundamental in rom coms

Ohhhhhhh

That makes sense

I meant to ask about Baby Driver

ANDREW: Oh! Action... thriller... musical?

MIRI: Is The Heist Gone Wrong our alternate universe version of this film with Ronan, JLo, etc? Because I’m into that

It is now

KRIS: Hmm

MIRI: Yeah, I’d put Baby Driver as action drama, not comedy

ANDREW: Yeah, it wasn't really funny.

KRIS: I’m thinking of how the Golden Globes lumps musicals and comedies together

MIRI: I mean there are definitely comedic beats! But they’re not the focus. Plus way too many people die if we’re going classical on our definitions

KRIS: There’s an element of genre snobbery

MIRI: Very much so

ANDREW: A lot of people do die in Shaun of the dead though.

KRIS: I like action musical

MIRI: But it’s not actually a musical

KRIS: Hmm

ANDREW: Its more of a... ballet

But with driving

MIRI: Yes!

Very apt description!!

ANDREW: And murder

Why thank you!

KRIS: Yeah, that’s good

MIRI: A...Ballet but with Driving and Murder for sub-heading?

KRIS: BOBDAMMIT

Yes

MIRI: hahahahhahahahha Bobdammit

Ok, we may just have to call it, guys

KRIS: I won’t hold anyone else hostage here if anyone needs to bail but I’ll wait it out

MIRI: Ok. I have to get my Orphan Black thoughts in order to post, so I’ll be around

ANDREW: It's up to you two. I'm a guest here.

BOB: Sorry reading 

KRIS: BOB!

MIRI: BOB’s back!

BOB: What's the question?!

KRIS: Just anything else you wanted to bring up

MIRI: We just didn’t want to wrap up without you

BOB: In a different life I am Baby

Very interested in the idea of reclassifying films such as this one with an alternate casting

Got me thinking all types of things now

MIRI: We should definitely make that a thing we do

KRIS: I actually really want to hear more about you-as-Baby, if you have more to say about that

BOB: Overall down to an 8 after the very Wright-ful comment on lack of women

MIRI: Andrew, he’s coming for your pun king crown!!

BOB: Well based on him driving and my life as a Lyft driver i started thinking about what I jam out to

ANDREW: Welcome to the fold, BOB.

BOB: But I enjoyed the film thoroughly and as mentioned yesterday want to get my hands on the script

To see how the link up and syncing up with action and music

MIRI: I wonder if Wright is a better director than he is a writer

BOB: I believe that despite its flaws with some characters and a few plot holes, as a whole should be considered for something award worthy because of its ingenuity with music and action

ANDREW: A Wright... er.

MIRI: I wouldn’t say it deserves best screenplay or anything, but a sound design nom would be well deserved

Especially factoring in the ringing

(Is that sound design or sound engineering? I always mess them up)

BOB: I think a Golden globe nod

ANDREW: I think design!

I could be wrong.

I'm probably wrong.

MIRI: Whichever I mean, that one!

KRIS: For the Oscars, Sound Editing is for making effects, Sound Mixing is for how you layer them together

So I could maybe see nods for both in this case

MIRI: So design isn’t even an option

That seems right

KRIS: I tend to say “sound design” as a safe/cop-out catchall

Oh I could totally see a Globe nod

BOB: How about its cinematography?

KRIS: in that weird Best Musical or Comedy category

MIRI: Hmmmm. I never really noticed the cinematography the way I did the sound

(don’t tell my dad)

Miri’s dad is a camera operator

KRIS: Same, except in that single shot coffee run

MIRI: Yeah, that was fun

BOB: It was shot really well

KRIS: But I would believe it was a hard movie to shoot, since most of the effects/stunts were practical

MIRI: They ought to get recognition for the stunts/driving

ANDREW: It was shot very stylistically too.

MIRI: Is there a stunt Oscar or Globe?

ANDREW: How many cars were destroyed in the making of this film?

BOB: Not yet

KRIS: I feel like I’ve heard that stunt people have been pushing for an Oscar?

Which should definitely be a thing

MIRI: Yeah, looks like no go yet

BOB: The Wright amount of cars were destroyed

KRIS: Oh my god

ANDREW: Son of a bitch!!!!

MIRI: Roughly 150, apparently 

ANDREW: Is that really the number?

Holy shit!

MIRI: http://www.cinemablend.com/news/1665810/the-crazy-number-of-cars-edgar-wright-used-for-baby-driver

Not sure they were all wrecked!

Just used

KRIS: I think we may have a new title contender

That’s also going to be hard to beat as an exit line

ANDREW: I will play Angel by Sarah McLaughlin as I think of those cars this evening.

Thanks very much to Andrew and BOB for Guest Reacting! You will almost certainly hear from them again.

To Keagan Michael Key [Ethan] when he wants to come clean about the affair makes me angry

MARCHAE: Sam and Ethan 

But I think it's supposed to make you kind of angry 

But you know they are miserable 

It's kind of like the payment they get for having, excuse my language, dicked their partners around

ADAM: The creators watched shows like Casual, Difficult People, You’re the Worst, Girls and tried to replicate that form. They are doing it because they think people want unlikeable characters.

MARCHAE: Simultaneously it's kind of a tragic love story 

I don't find them entirely unlikable though

ADAM: A show like You’re The Worst has terrible fucking people in it, but when everything boils down to the core there is some humanity in them.

With Friends From College these characters are just plain terrible trying to justify that they aren’t terrible.

K: Caroline Framke at Vox called it a bad show about worse people

MARCHAE: I don't think they are terrible!!!! 

Lisa isn't

Tell me how Lisa is terrible?!?!

K: I will agree I don’t actually think Lisa is terrible, or at least unlike the others she’s never actively insufferable

They are all kind of midlife crisis

ADAM: Which one is Lisa again?

MARCHAE: Married to Ethan (Keegan Key)

ADAM: She sleeps cheats on her husband

MARCHAE: *Sighs*

She explains why and of those cheating she actually has the "most justifiable" reason

K: She does immediately regret it and almost-immediately come clean, and Ethan takes the opportunity to be Generously Forgiving instead of coming clean like he’d planned, which makes him King Asshole

ADAM: She forces Ethan to break into a pharmacy

MARCHAE: Because SHE WANTS A BABY

K: This is one of the only storylines I like, because it lets Smulders do some actually great dramatic acting. But I wouldn’t even call it an arc, because it never feels resolved so much as dropped halfway through the season.

ADAM: And ruins Felix’s birthday surprise

MARCHAE: and it's funny

ADAM: So what

MARCHAE: I think it is a study in the absurdity of being privileged 

They do whatever they want 

And have minimal consequences until there are consequences 

While the show comments to that it does so using HUMOR 

So I personally feel like you should have laughed

Hard

And often

ADAM: It’s privileged assholes with a token black friend

K: Hey now, they also have an Asian friend. Who arguably feels more like a token than Ethan. 

But I don’t know that I’d charge the show with tokenism; or at least, the cross-section feels pretty familiar to me, as Expensive New England Liberal Arts College demographics go.

MARCHAE: (Ok you have a point there) 

Ethan also notes that in one episode by making a remark about what black men can't do

I really think it's a social commentary

ADAM: Social commentary on what

MARCHAE: The fact that privileged people can do whatever they want with few repercussions and that their problems are clearly as the kids say #firstworld 

I mean come on 

These people know all the right people they aren't terribly efficient or socially prepared to be in the world yet they all make it 

And that's how the world works 

And I think the show knows it

K: But how is it a commentary? It shows privilege, but that’s not the same thing.

ADAM: I wouldn’t say they make it. When it’s handed to them

MARCHAE: No they are all surviving and thriving there 

Sam has her fancy job 

I still don't entirely know what she does (I have to rewatch) 

K: I think she sells furniture?

Nick is a trust fund baby 

AND THEY ALL WENT TO HARVARD

K: But the creators/showrunners also went to Harvard, and no one in the show is anything but affectionate about it, and I never get critique vibes at all as opposed to maybe some self-congratulatory vibes. Which would be totally fine! If the show was better.

ADAM: There is no true arc to these characters either

MARCHAE: it's great they're lives suck and they have it all 

DONT EVEN 

they dooooo

(Well some of them)

Explain though

ADAM: Sam wants to keep her perfect life does not feel guilty about cheating

Fred Savage just keeps doing what he is doing even after his partner (the only good thing about the show) leaves him

Nat Faxon floats in and out of episodes to be a comedic partner for Colby Smulders

K: And the main ostensible arc, of Ethan and Sam reckoning with their affair, is very deliberately not resolved, in a weirdly abrupt series ending

MARCHAE: I beg to differ we do see Sam finally realize she's wrong -and Max (Savage) does change a bit and we see the evolution of him kind of realizing: wait these folks might be ruining my life 

Nat’s character I WILL give you

ADAM: He NEVER realizes that

MARCHAE: He doooeeeessssssss

He does we know he does he says it all when he's drunk 

And also admits he might have a crush on Ethan

ADAM: He threw a temper tantrum at the end when they weren’t doing the bill Clinton musical

MARCHAE: He did and that musical was hilarious 

Admit that much at least

ADAM: We never saw the musical

MARCHAE: We saw a number from it 

Did we watch the same show?

K: Even the show thinks the musical is terrible

ADAM: Clearly not

Can we talk about how the tone always shifts?

MARCHAE: I didn't think so 

But go maybe I'll change my mind I'm flexible

ADAM: The two big stand outs are the wine tasting tour

And the one where they go back to Harvard

The wine tasting tour especially

The let’s get them all drunk and see what happens

K: I agree about the tonal inconsistency, and also particularly hate this episode, except the very end when Felix tells Max the group’s whole deal is pathetic. I want to like this episode because it seems to know that it should be told from Felix’s point of view, but it mostly doesn’t come across that way. It’s just a lot of insufferable antics, with some Lisa angst interspersed.

I think it also with the uneven performance by Keegan Michael Key

The director/creator never really knew how to work with him

At moments he’s just doing impressions and voices that you would see on Key and Peele then he’s this starving unappreciated writer

MARCHAE: The impressions were a personality flaw that they explain in the first or second episode 

K: Lampshading is not the same as justifying! Just because there are some lines about it doesn’t mean it works.

I loved the Harvard episode

K: I wanted to, for reasons that will be obvious to our former classmates, but I feel like they crammed two A-stories in under half an hour and neither Harvard nor the Caymans got enough real-estate

ADAM: They threw Kate McKinnon in there to be this weird YA author

I know that, but he is doing them at weird times

MARCHAE: It's his tick. They call him on it too

I could have honestly done without Kate 

It was weird. I'll give you that one 

K: I didn’t hate it, but I also don't keep up with SNL so maybe my Kate McKinnon oversaturation point is just way different from everyone else’s

His voice impressions were supposed to be anytime he was angry or disagrees with something. I think it added levity to some of the more stressful moments

ADAM: I liked how they poked fun at YA and the twist with Wolf Trials

K: But our readers may appreciate this Mary Sue article defending YA

MARCHAE: HA!

MARCHAE: but i feel like there was so much to like there

ADAM: Here’s a question: In two parts. Sam and Ethan got together when they were Freshmen right?

MARCHAE: yup i think so ( I feel like now I have the PLEASURE of going back to rewatch)

ADAM: Ethan and Lisa got together when he was a Senior and she was Freshmen

MARCHAE: yeah

ADAM: Sam explains they kept having these flings why didn’t they just stay together?

MARCHAE: I honestly thought the same thing - however, I assumed it was because she said whenever they are together she makes poor choices

ADAM: I mean shit, he carved their initials into his dorm wall

MARCHAE: RIGHT!

I will say I questioned the same thing many many many many times and if it was anything that bugged me that was kind of it

ADAM: Smart thing to do is that they never got together in college and are now doing it

MARCHAE: AGREED on that front

ADAM: That speaks to the unevenness of the story

MARCHAE: I think I explained it kind of like they are magnetic for each other ( I don’t necessarily mean it romantically though)

K: Does the show ever really sell this? I don’t think it gives Annie Parisse enough to work with as Sam.

ADAM: They NEVER explain why they didn’t just stay together

MARCHAE: they can’t not be together. Although I probably assigned more of a narrative to the relationship than the show provided

ADAM: its possible because the creators did not. It seems like a pretty big plot device to really overlook

MARCHAE: I think we are supposed to assume that they were each others one who got away yet never got away because they are all still very much good friends?

K: We shouldn’t have to assume!

ADAM: Also, if he writes these critical acclaimed books why is he so sad?

MARCHAE: CAUSE WRITING IS SAD

You know this

I know this!

ADAM: i write and I’m never sad

K: Wait what

MARCHAE: LOL

I think it’s been awhile since his last well received publication. he’s in a bit of a dry spell is how I read it…

(I feel like you’re making me question what I liked about this show?!?!?!)

(Suddenly I’m like wait a minute?)

ADAM: isn’t that the point?

I took it that he is coming off of another critically acclaimed novel that no one is buying because print is dead, and he’s pissed because he wants Harry Potter money

MARCHAE: I totally didn’t get that at all! I thought he didn’t want to be like that at all... he’s into Literature and Max knows that that’s where the money is and Max’s reputation is on the line as well. I think that Ethan would be happy writing his broody novels featuring a teen

ADAM: Ok I would say that it is Max pulling the strings on that

If I had several books that many critics loved I would be happy because I know that it will live on through the ages and be taught in freshmen lit classes

K: I grant this given the additional condition that Ethan is obviously not hurting for money, whether it’s because of his own sales or because of Lisa’s career. But if I had only critical acclaim and had trouble supporting myself I would not be happy

It goes back to my argument of these are not interesting people

Just because they’re dicks does not make them interesting

K: EXACTLY. It’s not good enough in prestige drama, and it’s definitely not good enough in a comedy that wants to be feel-good at least some of the time.

MARCHAE: I think he had two... and when you have some fame you always want more

THEY ARE INTERESTING. don’t you want to know the answers to all of the questions you’ve posed? Why did Sam and Ethan just not stay together?

K: The show should have answered all these questions by the end of the season, because they’re mostly not plot mysteries, they’re essential to character motivation.

ADAM: I don’t think it will get a second season

MARCHAE: What happens with Felix and Max?

IT BETTER!!!! I legitimately thought it was hilarious

it reminded me of Melvin Goes to Dinner

ADAM: I haven’t seen Melvin Goes to Dinner so I cannot relate

MARCHAE: Watch it..it’s a great little indie flick

ADAM: I will

MARCHAE: So what did you like about it

ADAM: Can I say one more thing about the non interesting part then I will say what I liked about it.

MARCHAE: go for it

ADAM: These are white collar people, living in upper crust urban areas, with country houses worrying about how they can keep their upper crust life when they are the ones who put themselves in this situation

MARCHAE: and it’s all falling apart (also Ethan and Sam Lisa are living on Marianne’s couch)

ADAM: meh. I will say this:

MARCHAE: MEH! ADAM come on!!!

ADAM: Even though I had my thoughts on Lisa she is the most interesting person on that show

K: YES

MARCHAE: BOOM!!!

I like Sam too. I think she’s the most complicated character

ADAM: Well and Felix because Billy Eichner plays a great straight man

She’s the most real

Billy Eichner does a great straight man which is different from his normal routine.

Nat Faxon has the best one liners. But I think that is Nat Faxon and not the writers

K: Everyone should watch the short-lived Ben and Kate, also starring a pre-50 Shades Dakota Johnson. But I think Marianne had the best one-liners.

Because Nat Faxon is actually a talented writer

K: With director Alexander Payne and fellow comedy actor Jim Rash, Faxon won a Best Adapted Screenplay Oscar for The Descendants.

That’s all I somewhat enjoyed, but that’s not enough when the show clearly hinges on Ethan and Sam.

MARCHAE: WOW!

I thought that Sam was great. I liked not knowing what the heck had happened at some points... think about it

when we meet people we only know what we know about them from that moment forward - anything else is their retelling of it - so it was nice to not know and try to figure it out

ADAM: Not knowing what?

What are we not knowing?

MARCHAE: I think Sam’s psychology as well as the how and why she and Ethan stayed together

ADAM: She has no problem fucking around and screwing over Lisa when she knows Ethan and Lisa are trying to conceive

MARCHAE: No that doesn’t make her likable but it does make her complicated

ADAM: Plus she would rather cheat on her husband, who all accounts loves and adores her, he threw her that amazing birthday party, than have Ethan say something and ruin her life

MARCHAE: (btw I think what she did was WRONG on so many levels and I wanted to fight her...she was selfish and needed to be punched and I was sad Lisa never did it)

ADAM: She would just rather ruin everyone else’s life

MARCHAE: I think her husband loves the idea of her and her family but she is selfish that makes her complicated

ADAM: She’s not complicated

She’s spoiled

MARCHAE: But I think she might be there has to be something going on that makes a person say hey I know I make bad choices when I am with person X 

and engage in illicit behavior but I am going to keep doing it

I found myself the whole show trying to figure her out

K: I don’t think this is to the show’s credit, though, I think it’s evidence that the show fails to flesh her out or make her internally coherent.

ADAM: I just kept yelling at her

She deserves NOTHING!

MARCHAE: Oh my god! But that’s what I mean we don’t know how she got there

ADAM: Yes we do

She couldn’t/wouldn’t be with Ethan so she married a rich guy, but still realized that she wanted Ethan and would sleep with him every time she visited.

MARCHAE: LOLOL

ADAM: Then instead of breaking things off when Ethan moved to NY she kept at it

MARCHAE: But we don’t know WHY she couldn’t or wouldn’t, which is the FUN of the character but tried to get help

ADAM: But she does not want her privileged life to go away and still wants to fuck around

MARCHAE: but like I said they are magnetic for each other

she doesn’t want to lose her kids

K: But Sam just keeps saying this, and we don’t ever see her interact with her kids in a meaningful way -- even in the Harvard episode, which would’ve been great for that -- or see how incredible the life is that she would lose. It’s the opposite of Show Don’t Tell! But also, if they actually showed her incredible life, she’d be even harder to empathize with.

ADAM: I don’t care for the why on that deep of a level

MARCHAE: she’d still be very much privileged

and I think that’s kind of the cool thing,  cool being relative,  is that it is going to implode on them. And it’s going to be epic when it does. And we will watch and laugh

ADAM: Doubtful because I don’t think it will get renewed

MARCHAE: SMH

ADAM: https://www.rottentomatoes.com/tv/friends_from_college/s01/

http://www.refinery29.com/2017/07/163100/friends-from-college-ethan-sam-cheating-infidelity-

MARCHAE: AUDIENCE SCORE 55%!!!

ADAM: That’s an F

MARCHAE: see that’s the problem - don’t base your opinion on the critics

that’s over half and there are a lot of things that win with just over half

ADAM: I’m not

MARCHAE: LOTS

ADAM: I watched it

MARCHAE: *sighs*  look I am onboard to stick around next season and I feel like in that season they will explore some of the why’s that we need in order to feel more “complete” if you will

K: THEY SHOULD TELL A COMPLETE STORY IN ONE SEASON

ADAM: I’ll watch it see the train wreck that it will be. IF they bring it back

MARCHAE: They WILL bring it back and you and I will be right back here AGAIN.

Anything else you want to mention about how much you LOVED the show?

ADAM: If you want, I can include all the reviews that agree with me that hate it

Ok you asked what I liked. What didn’t you like?

MARCHAE: that would be hilarious. Do it

Well I thought it was hilarious for one thing. just the sheer level of immaturity

I also appreciated seeing folks questioning their lives at this age

ADAM: I think that’s a played out trope

MARCHAE: in theory they are “supposed to” have it all together and they don’t

I think we see it in movies like Sisters or what’s the one with the guys

the man gets a face tat 

K: The Hangover? 2, maybe?

but I don’t think we see it with a group of people just trying to be somewhat functional and live their lives

Sam Lisa and Ethan are for all practical purposes homeless

we don’t know why they have enough money for IVF but can’t buy a house but who cares

K: ME

they are a hot mess

and i think that’s what I appreciated is that it was a hot mess

and your clothes can look nice

and your job be great and you are still at the end of the day unhappy and wanting more

and you are fumbling to figure out how to get to that point

and that you do it at 20, 30, 40 and they’ll still be at it at 50 or 60

that no one is actualized enough to be transparent enough to say: YOU MAKE ME UNHAPPY. but we fall into this routine of doing things because we are supposed to...they are supposed to be friends

supposed to marry the guy with all the money

supposed to have kids

and it’s all crumbling because they are ultimately toxic for one another

that’s fun to watch!

K: This is a very eloquent case for the show in theory, but I just don’t see it in practice. I think you’re doing a lot of the heavy lifting for the show. I’m glad it works for you, but I don’t think that’s how madcap ensemble comedies are supposed to function.

ADAM: This whole I’m turning 40 mid life crisis thing does not entertain me.

Especially when you have these well off people. It’s like the Breakfast Club. I hate that movie

A bunch of whiny teens with no real problems, other than Bender.

MARCHAE: but those are kids.  watching adults still fumble isn’t terrible to me especially those who are doing the most

(Also i thought it was HILARIOUS)

ADAM: Wait did you think it was hilarious?

MARCHAE: The whole thing!

I thought it was witty. There were literally points where I laughed out loud

The vineyard

The brainstorm at Max and Felix’s

The throwing of the chair though the pharmacy

ADAM: That is the directors asking Ethan to do Key and Peele shit

MARCHAE: it’s funny though

K: I hated all of these things because they’re just free-standing slapstick sequences, and didn’t feel motivated by the story.

now to speak to some of the things you didn’t like

I would have liked a bit more drama

(but I prefer drama to comedy 7 out of 7 days of the week...)

I also wanted more backstory somehow about WHY these people are still friends

so I don’t think it was perfect

but it was easily one of the better things I’ve watch for a comedy in a while

barring like Insecure

ADAM: That seems like a pretty big concern

MARCHAE: I can usually forgive it if the characters are interesting...WHICH THEY WERE

and I think we will be explained more of that in SEASON 2!

ADAM: I don’t have faith in that

MARCHAE: 😟

Do you have anything else you want to add about this show that you ...er... love so much 😊  

(Also I swear if it gets a season 2 we. will. react.)

K: I actually will not be surprised if it gets a second season, assuming the cast is in. It doesn’t seem cheap to shoot but it’s also relatively limited in its locations.

ADAM: I swear to react IF it gets a second season

MARCHAE: YES!!!

ADAM: I don’t think I have really anything else to say about these boring people

K: And you guys never even touched on Marianne, Jae Suh Park’s character. Maybe because she’s barely a character. Park gave killer readings to her one-liners (“Has it ever worked?” “Not to my knowledge.”), and I personally would love to see her in more things. But every time it seemed like she might have an actual story, it fizzled out pretty much immediately. Plus a lot of her New Agey GOOP bullshit seems like it should’ve come from an insufferable white lady, not the show’s only Asian character.

MARCHAE: had to get one last dig in didn’t ya? 

Well I say this has been a joy!!!

ADAM: It really has

Maybe next time we can react to something we agree on...

Like Die Hard

MARCHAE: YESSSSS!!!!!!

Let’s plan for this!

ADAM: Whenever wherever

Kris was agitating for a Marchae-Adam Die Hard reaction even before Friends from College came up, and would endorse an ongoing Marchae and Adam React to the 80s series. Expect to see more from Adam in the not-too-distant future! And we have yet another excellent Guest Reactor on deck, so you might want to brush up on your X-Men cartoons...