#marchae

SHE HAS EXQUISITE MIMICRY OF LEARNED BEHAVIOR

Good, but not good enough.  Pretty, but not pretty enough, black but not black enough, too black, too white, your hair is too straight, your hair is too kinky, your skin is too dark, your skin is too light, you think you’re better, you think you’re white. These are all things that black girls hear repeatedly in their daily lives. Constantly thought of as less than important, less than perfect the way they were born.  It becomes evident from the moment you leave the comforting cocoon of the familiar and enter preschool. Or perhaps earlier still, the moment you turn on the television and see that there are so few positive examples of people who look like you on the screen and it’s painful and damaging because, as we have come to know, affirmative images and representation open your mind to hope and possibility. Melanie, just like many real girls, was labeled as not enough. She wasn’t human enough. It didn’t matter that this little girl longed for things like kittens, or that she spoke politely and knew all the right answers. She wasn’t enough for her captors.  More importantly, she wasn’t enough for Dr. Caldwell who was holding her captive and threatening to take her brain and her spine to save everyone but her. Melanie was vilified (no lie though she was kind of scary) and because she chose to buck the system and challenge the authority of her captors she was tied up and left alone in her room.  This likely sounds familiar and I could surely cite any number of current news stories or images of POC where, because they are exercising their voices and challenging the system, they are imprisoned in some way either in this life or in death.  Yet still, she rises. Melanie doesn’t let her oppressors steal her happiness, nor does she let them take from her who she is inherently a good person with a lot to offer.

When we tell people to sit down and be humble (to tap into a pop cultural reference), we are essentially telling them to be glad they have what they’ve been given no matter how little it is. This is constantly reiterated through the first act of the film until the tables turn and Melanie’s captors need her to survive. The idea of this assimilation, if you will (and you will), is blatantly stated by Dr. Caldwell who comments on Melanie’s ability to mimic behavior and essential do as she’s told. But let’s define Assimilation. Assimilation is the process of becoming similar to something. Among the others like Melanie, she was the only black female and only one of two blacks in her class. She was the brightest, the most human-like, and this is what makes her desirable. She was becoming more like everyone else around her. To take this to a more realistic concept and to reiterate my first point, black girls are often forced to become so much like someone else around them that it is often forgotten that they are uniquely themselves (I’m looking at you Dove). It is never appropriate for someone to feel as if they are required to sacrifice themselves for the pleasure or betterment of someone else. Melanie was enough for herself and too much for everyone around her.  

I’M PRODUCING A TEST BATCH AND SHE’S THE MAIN INGREDIENT

For Dr. Caldwell,  Melanie was the main ingredient to ensuring that the world would not perish at the hands of a fungus that would ravage the brain cells of anyone nearby. What is disturbing about this is that Dr. Park knew that Melanie was superb in her intellect and wit, she knew Melanie was stronger and she knew that Melanie was everything she could not be.  Essentially, Melanie was black girl magic in one neat little package that she’d helped to develop.  For me, this was a brilliant parallel to the idea of cultural appropriation and the fetishism that we see so often in the media. In my biased opinion, black culture is one of the most beautiful things I’ve ever been part of. From the variety of dialect, the styling of our clothes, the artistry in every single strand of hair we possess, to the polish we put on our toes. Our beauty is seen from head to literal toe. And do NOT get me started on the brain trust and contributions we have made to our modern culture (that flat iron you use would not be possible without the likes of Madam CJ Walker. The stop light. Peanut butter. Penicillin. 3D television technology. Polio vaccine and countless other vaccines at the hands of so many faceless, nameless test subjects, blood banks). I am proud of this. And at a glance, people would assume that I don’t want all of these inventions to be replicated. Sure I do, none of us would be here without them. However, when no one wants to support or give credit to the individuals who are the creators of the brilliance, or our lives are indeed negated, we do become the test batch for culture. Like Melanie, we become the main ingredient in a meal devoured like a holiday feast without a single thanks to the chef.  Like Melanie, who thought she couldn’t persist without Ms. Justineau, we question if we are good enough and see our intrinsic brilliance as emanating from those around us. She needed validation…until she didn’t.  

I NEED HER BRAIN AND HER SPINE

Dr. Park tells Ms. Justineau that she needs Melanie’s brain and her spine. Let me translate for you. I need your power and your strength. Uh, nah brah. We all know that one cannot stand tall without a spine and that one cannot live without a brain, as did Dr. Caldwell. She knew that for her legacy to survive she had to take from someone else their power (I mean does this sound familiar…no seriously… this sounds a lot like slav…nevermind). This becomes an incredibly important statement in the film and not only because it provides insight into Caldwell (we learn that she is willing to kill anyone and at any cost to further her agenda) but also because Caldwell believed that Melanie’s brain and her spine are the very things that save humanity in the end. For a real-world perspective, the brain and spine of many-a-woman is the thing that’s saved many people’s lives in the end. We all know that if you educate someone about who they are and where they come from they will indeed rise above their oppressor.  No, thank you, ma’am, you may not have my brain, my spine, my grit, or my resilience, Dr. Caldwell.

WHY SHOULD IT BE US WHO DIES FOR YOU?

This is one of the last lines delivered in the film and easily the most prolific. Here we have one of four African American characters in a film to survive to the end (the other three were killed off of course…it’s a horror movie).She’s likely the youngest and the only female left by the end. She is being used as an experiment and is seen as nothing more than something to be used as parts for the benefit of her captors who want to save their world order. She has essentially been commodified and now identified as a thing. If we were to examine this statement alone from a historical perspective there is much to unpack, but I won’t dig into it because this is a blog and not a historical analysis or a thesis. But, if we take a look at how African American women have been treated through history we would see that there is much to be said for this statement. We can even consider Henrietta Lacks (if you don’t know who she is, shame on you!!!) or even the African American women held captive and experimented upon by gynecologist J. Marion Sims to develop new techniques to be used to prevent fistulas. He performed his experiments on these women without anesthesia (because blacks did not feel pain) or consent from the women. We could also examine those individuals who were experimented upon in the development of a cure for syphilis and who took those diseases home to their wives and girlfriends. In each of the instances mentioned, individuals were dying for the benefit of those who held them captive in some way be it economically, through racial oppression or otherwise. This entire film could also be a commentary on biomedical ethics, but I won’t go there either. In this film Melanie takes a stand against her oppressors. She takes matters into her own hands and puts an end to those who have kept her and those like her under their thumb for the betterment of their own group with little attention paid to the very individuals they are sacrificing to “make the world better”. Neither the experiments conducted on her nor the education that Melanie received was ever about her. Rather, it was always about dying for someone else, giving someone else a fighting chance. Melanie wanted a fighting chance to see a better tomorrow for herself and those like her and in the end, the captor became the captured because she asks the question: “Why should it be us who dies for you?”  When indeed no one should be dying for anyone we should all be lifting one another up.

KRIS: Oh sorry did you want to say more about Lazarus

MARCHAE: It’s okay -

I was just going to say that there are some definite similarties between the two books

Specifically just the idea of strong female protagonists who are capable and leaders

and also the notion of these women dodging death

All. the. time!

I thought it was interesting to have read and to be a HUGE fan of both books now

and think critically about what he means to demonstrate and also why i consider the woman he portrays more heroic than other “heroes”

that was a long rant LOL

sorry

KRIS: And there’s a quietly great line in chapter 2 about how everyone just defaulted to Andy being the leader because she was the oldest, so it was obvious

MARCHAE: Yes I remember that

KRIS: And I haven’t really thought about this, but it’s interesting and I’m assuming very deliberate that the oldest and the youngest leads are the women

But so matter-of-factly

MARCHAE: Yes - I did note that and remember being worried for Andy and what it meant later on in the series

and also the conflicts that we could expect to see in the future books

I think it’s smart  honestly and kind of this mentorship that also gets to happen between the two women

we know that historically women have a difficult time finding mentors so I guess it is great to see it demonstrated in this medium

I think we’ll eventually see some bickering between the two , but ultimately a respect which is also not often depicted in other medium as much as I feel like it should be

KRIS: I’ll save it for a little later but I did screenshot that great (affectionate) bickering toward the end

MARCHAE: YES!

KRIS: We often write these in a way that sort of assumes the reader knows at least generally what we’re talking about but maybe we should try explaining a little about at least the main character relationships here

MARCHAE: That’s true - especially considering this is our first time reacting to a comic book

KRIS: Oh my god wait I just want to show this page transition I didn’t pick up on in Guided View

MARCHAE: I was trying to find a good article that listed the main concept with characters (mostly because I need to know how to spell andy’s real name)

KRIS: The color palette!

MARCHAE: It’s beautiful I liked these panels

KRIS: They only say Andy’s whole name twice but it’s not the same both times!

MARCHAE: I have this weird way that I read them… 1. for story. 2. art with story 3. only with art

KRIS: Oh interesting

MARCHAE: even the layout is nice

KRIS: I’m not much of a re-reader (or re-watcher) but I should be

MARCHAE: I don’t generally - but because I am so used to reading “regular books” I have to almost get the story then go back so I can appreciate the art with the story

then just the art cause #pretty

KRIS: Oh man I sidetracked us again

OK so

Andy!

MARCHAE: its okay really theres is a lot here to talk about actually!!!

Yes, Andy short for Andromeda?

I think

KRIS: I THINK Andromache is what her name is supposed to be, since that’s what the Comixology store “logline” uses

MARCHAE: YES

KRIS: and that’s what Booker calls her

MARCHAE: I was all off LOL

KRIS: but when she tells Nile an issue or two earlier, she says Andronika

which I’m assuming is just a continuity mistake on someone’s part

MARCHAE: I am now curious if it changes with the time

KRIS: and maybe a reprint will correct it

MARCHAE: like each century she modifies it?

yes but she’s centuries old

and most important

KRIS: But I got the sense that we were given everyone’s “true” name at least once

MARCHAE: Immortal - she can’t die - at least she’s not able to right now

KRIS: So “Andy” is her modern day shorthand and maybe in the 1800s it was something else, but Andromache is her birth name

MARCHAE: yeah! that’s my deduction at least

KRIS: So Andromache means “battle of a man”

(I think Andronika would mean something like victory of a man?)

MARCHAE: I love your to the minute, on the spot research!

KRIS: Well Andromache I knew because I briefly studied Greek in undergrad and have always been a little bit of an Ancient Greek Stuff nerd

What I’m not sure of is in what sense “battle” is being used

MARCHAE: are the names from the same era?

I guess it could be two fold

KRIS: Like, is it a battle as in an event, or is it in the sense of “she’s got fight like a man”

MARCHAE: Oh i was going in a different direction!!!

wow

yours is probably more appropriate LOL

KRIS: Andromache is at least as old as the Odyssey

MARCHAE: I was thinking more of “battle of a man” - as in battle against one’s self

KRIS: Oh interesting

MARCHAE: like man against man conflict which i suppose is fitting considering that she’s somewhat immortal

KRIS: oh I meant the Iliad -- Andromache is the wife of Hektor

MARCHAE: OH YEAH

Also thinking of “battle of a man” to mean battle of time and life

we always want to live longer, better, never die

KRIS: I don’t know much at all about Arabic so I don’t know how old Joe’s real name is, etymologically speaking

MARCHAE: and here Andy is wanting to be done

I loved that scene where introducing himself

KRIS: Yeah, that’s pretty classic

MARCHAE: and we get to Joe!

So I am checking an article and [the Newsarama interviewer] says Andy’s real name is Andronika

https://www.newsarama.com/33272-rucka-joins-the-old-guard-with-queen-country-artist-fernandez.html

(also side note I feel redeemed and a bit smart that he mentions some of the themes I pointed out and made similar comparisons! )

KRIS: OK skimming now

“John Wick meets Highlander”

That’s pretty great

MARCHAE: Truth!!

KRIS: Oh Black Magick I should link to that [see above]

MARCHAE: I haven’t read that one

KRIS: Anyway where were we?

MARCHAE: Ok we have digressed again! I guess a brief synopsis of the main characters

KRIS: Right right

So we have this 4-person mercenary team

MARCHAE: Right and they’ve been connected FOREVER it seems like

KRIS: Led by [Andronika/Andromache?] Andy, who is literally biblically old

MARCHAE: Well it doesn’t seem like - they have been together for ever

KRIS: Then Nico and Joe (Nicolo and Yusuf) who met during the First Crusade, so 1090s

And presumably they linked up with Andy sometime between the Crusades and the Napoleonic Wars, when we get Booker

MARCHAE: There is a lot of history here

KRIS: And there’s this stuff about how when a new immortal dies for the first time, other immortals (maybe within a certain range?) start having dreams about them

MARCHAE: and that’s how they are introduced or at least made aware that they will be meeting someone new? did I read that correctly

KRIS: Yeah

MARCHAE: HA - I misread your text LOL

I literally rephrased what you said LOL

KRIS: Andy had to figure it out the first time it happened, like the dream doesn’t spell anything out for them

MARCHAE: They are often killed or incredibly injured during their battles and they heal themselves which is how they discover ultimately that they are immortal

for a spell at least

KRIS: Oh there are some GREAT “match cuts” in this

There’s a really good one in the Nico/Joe origin story

MARCHAE: OH YEAHHHHHH

KRIS: 

But that whole sequence is great

MARCHAE: I loved the twist there

KRIS: So yeah sorry for our readers my mental leap isn’t obvious, but this is preceded by a couple pages of Joe and Nico during the Crusades repeatedly killing each other

MARCHAE: I sent over a few screen shots hopefully they will come through…

The book definitely has a distinct aesthetic that’s for sure

KRIS: It’s mostly serious but lightly comic, like they just don’t question it, like okay yeah I guess I’ll just kill you again

Oh getting your screenshots now

Yes the faces (again)! You can see the modern Nico and Joe even under all the facial hair

MARCHAE: you mentioned my idea of hero

KRIS: Yes

MARCHAE: and your point “it’s mostly serious but lightly comic”

that’s the thing… saving lives/the world is a serious thing

these people have real problems that are connected usually to slightly dystopia ideas of our current world

I feel like with more mainstream comics we are in some alternate reality all together and the people are trying to be funny and trying to save the world and trying to be cool…

I feel like in Rucka’s books (and also a few other’s I read) it’s rooted in something that i can grasp and their problems are real

so in this text it’s when does my suffering end

in a book like lazarus it’s why won’t my family love me

and it’s not in this over the top let me fly all over the place and shoot missiles out of my hands kind of way

it’s serious

it’s business

KRIS: But I think tonal variation is a good thing

for the genre and the industry

Like a lot of the recent DC movies are SUPER SERIOUS on a surface level, but they’re not necessarily handling ideas in an intellectually rigorous way

MARCHAE: I absolutely agree I guess in a world I could see myself being saved by someone who is more similar to Andy than say Captain America

I think that’s the thing I like is that it is this exploration of more complex ideas in these types of comics and I feel more connected to the work

it’s more accessible

KRIS: And even though the Marvel movies are lighter, and not SUPER thematically driven, they’re relatively smart about the thematics they do include

See I think most people would say Marvel’s tone is more accessible

But I think you might mean accessible in a different way

MARCHAE: LOL hence the mega fafillion dollar industry

KRIS: Like you’re looking for something concrete to latch onto

MARCHAE: I think I agree with you there - I want a take-away

KRIS: And I think the Iron Man tone is more “here is a world that speaks the language you speak with your friends” in a generalized sense

MARCHAE: I can give you that…

the more mainstream comics make the business of saving the world seem less serious

I also am a lover of drama and heavy topics so I think there is also the attraction - these people don’t always feel like they have be “on” to me

they are trying to make it

and that I can relate to!

KRIS: I think that’s because “saving the world” isn’t REALLY what they’re about, though, to the extent that they’re about something

I think at some point, maybe with all four of us, I do want to talk more about the difficulty you have with comedy

MARCHAE: It’s like an intervention LOL

KRIS: No! Well maybe a little. But it’s so ingrained for you that I think I also just want to understand

Maybe when we eventually return to Sweet/Vicious, which I still really want to do

MARCHAE: comedy is truly a challenge for me with the exception of a few - but even those make a larger statement in my opinion!

we do need to finish S/V

KRIS: I’d also like to see you and Keely talk about comedy

ANYWAY

We should talk about Nile

MARCHAE: that might be fun - Keely and I have talked about why I like her brand of comedy best…

OK NILE

KRIS: So Nile is an American Marine

in a Female Engagement Team in Afghanistan

MARCHAE: I absolutely adore her

she’s the “youngest” immortal

KRIS: So at first I didn’t realize she didn’t know she was immortal

For some reason I assumed she had abandoned the team at some point

MARCHAE: OHHHH

KRIS: But then she becomes our (great) audience surrogate

MARCHAE: Which is why I like her - she’s new- but it’s clear she’s competent

and is legit just trying to understand “what the heck is going on here”

KRIS: Yeah, and she gets to push back a lot when Andy is like “don’t worry about it”

But never in a way that sells out either of their characters

I feel like so often the “new one” is obnoxious

or the “old one” is a tired “Asshole with a Heart of Gold” trope

MARCHAE: Agreed! it is very organic and you can believe in them… but also it establishes what the relationship can be

I also think that because we know that eventually these people run out of “changes” to live - I almost felt like we are operating on a clock

ticking clock*

it ramped up the tension for me when reading  - my mind was legit going a mile a min.

KRIS: And it’s this female friendship that never really leans on “the women! they are alike and get along because they are women!” but also doesn’t completely pretend gender doesn’t matter

Oh man that freaked me out when Andy shot herself to convince Nile

I was like “WHAT IF THIS IS THE ONE, ANDY WHAT ARE YOU DOING”

MARCHAE: YESSS

Because she doesn’t know when the one will be

that’s what makes me nervous about this entire series …

KRIS: The moment when they find Booker [temporarily] dead was amazing to me

MARCHAE: like antsy and I like the characters so it’s worse LOL

KRIS: Andy’s narration is like “he’s the youngest, if he’s really dead it would be so unfair”

And we’re trained to THINK that means “unfair because he was so young”

But then there’s the reversal of “unfair to ME (Andy)”

MARCHAE: Right! But he isn’t young at all - none of them are except for Nile

it kind of plays with your mind when you put into context that one of them is 5000 years old? did I read that or am I making that up - either way it’s insane

But there is also this entertainment of how in real life we all want to live forever, Andy is ready to kick the can

KRIS: Yeah in the last issue Andy says she’s over 6000

so the others are ALL babies compared to her

MARCHAE: yet they don’t ACTUALLY live forever at all

geesh i was off by 1000 years

good googley-moogley

KRIS: haha

So we get what becomes, by a little bit, our central relationship between the oldest woman in the world and the youngest woman on the team

MARCHAE: I love that! LOVE LOVE LOVE IT!!!

KRIS: although the book really does manage to make all the relationships pretty robust

Nico and Joe are our romance, and where a lot of our humor comes from

MARCHAE: The majority of it actually… and they are some deep relationships

KRIS: Andy and Booker obviously have a lot going on because of her dependence on his tech savvy and then The Twist

MARCHAE: (but this isn’t unusual for Rucka which is why I’m #obsessed and why he was my entrance into comics)

KRIS: I loved how the running joke of Andy’s inability to learn new tech ends up becoming a totally serious, really important story detail

MARCHAE: It actually does and it runs through the entire story

it’s smart and well thought out and incredibly problematic in our current world

KRIS: Only tangentially related but I really like how well the body language is rendered in this panel:

MARCHAE: and intentional on the writers part and what I’d imagine- if I were a 6000 years old hero - a real real problem

KRIS: Here’s a better one for the “joke” aspect

MARCHAE: LOL

KRIS: If you had that panel out of context it would be totally relatable for a lot of people

MARCHAE: she is so clueless - and it’s funny

KRIS: Although maybe with relatives who don’t look as young as Andy does

MARCHAE: Oh god I know all too well!!!

It’s also funny because she’s so on top of it in every other area of the job

I want more of her backstory too - I am so curious - I’ve already downloaded the other book

KRIS: which other book?

I love her

MARCHAE: I misread - I just looked and it doesn’t exist LOL

😟 sad face

I was curious about what your thought were about the exploration of being immortal

or mostly immortal

KRIS: I mean personally I still find the idea of death terrifying, maybe because I’ve never really dealt with it yet

So I’m kind of in the “yes we should try to become immortal” camp most days

And I tend to feel that the idea that immortality would ultimately be boring or soul-crushing is kind of a self-serving one, to make us feel better about mortality

BUT

I think this is a really good exploration of it

MARCHAE: interesting!

KRIS: The speech Booker gives to Nile about why she shouldn’t contact her family is really really good

MARCHAE: and kind of sad I loved it (not because it was sad, but because it was good)

KRIS: And Andy’s ultimate epiphany -- she doesn’t want to die, she wants something to live for again -- is really simple in the best way

And it’s also really sad, and I think mostly unremarked upon, that it takes Booker betraying the team for Andy to realize that the team is what she has to live for

MARCHAE: yeah…. she’s incredibly melancholy to me and I like that she’s wanting to push again

they are her family

KRIS: And it’s great that part of how Nile pushes the change in Andy’s mindset is very specifically “millennial” -- she’s always hustled, she’s worked a bunch of jobs briefly and picked up a bunch of random skills

in a way that’s convenient to the plot but doesn’t feel TOO Convenient

MARCHAE: Exactly - I could believe and buy into each and every single character

KRIS: Everything about Nile is like, That’s So Real

MARCHAE: I wanted to be on the team by the end of it

even the emotions that Andy experiences

there is a lot of hurt …maybe that imitates from the page

A lot of it is in her inner dialogue, the panel placement and the colors

but you feel for her

and you want her to win and win hard

KRIS: So hard

It was amazing to me that they actually fit a Booker redemption arc into this

and it works because of Andy’s feelings

MARCHAE: they do! A lot rides on the protagonist here - And what I think is amazing is that she carries so much of the tone for what we experience over the story - because of her we are able to buy the rest of them

I think if we had been led by anyone else it might not have been as effective

KRIS: It’s very successful at being clearly led by one character but still having a really strong “ensemble” feel

And that first issue and a half have to do so much heavy lifting to establish the team relationships so we buy the motivations when they spend most of the rest of the story separated

MARCHAE: It really is amazing from a storytelling standpoint

I could see the movie adaptation as I was reading it

Its so well crafted

KRIS: I think this arc could actually work as a feature

MARCHAE: (have you read lazarus?)

KRIS: and not lose much detail

Not yet

MARCHAE: (KRIS!!!!!! THAT IS A FEATURE WAITING TO BE MADE)

(BUT KRIS READ IT STAT!!!)

And it would be beautiful to shoot those period scenes

KRIS: It would

(I just love the face drawing so much in this book)

MARCHAE: they are much more expressive than others  - I feel like other books Ive read are more sketch like

?

KRIS: This sequence was VERY cinematic too

Not in a spectacle way but just in a general visual storytelling way

with the elevator door

I feel like a lot of superhero books don’t bother making faces distinctive

MARCHAE: That bugs me too - I think it’s why i started reading them three times

KRIS: It can get especially ridiculous when people don’t bother drawing Clark Kent and Bruce Wayne differently from each other

The one issue I can think of in The Old Guard is that in the first issue, it wasn’t super clear to me that Joe was a man of color

And I feel like Andy’s skin tone was also a little variable, but it’s more or less obvious that she’s supposed to be from Somewhere In the Mediterranean

MARCHAE: I  didn’t entirely register that either until he said his name

I can agree with that too

I also get the impression that Nile is also likely a POC as well

KRIS: Nile for sure read to me as a black (or possibly multiracial) woman, I guess the color was just off in the first chapter

MARCHAE: it was refreshing to see a more diverse group of characters that’s for sure

KRIS: Oh shit my mistake I guess the Scythians (Andy) are of Iranian/Central Asian descent

Yes! Which was why I was so glad Joe turned out not to be white -- at first I was like “hmmm this is an oddly white book for someone as woke as Greg Rucka”

MARCHAE: OH NO WAY!! (Re Andy)

KRIS: I really should have known that from like freshman year classics courses

MARCHAE: You are much more well versed than I am in historical references  and I definitely don’t have a tremendous breath of the classics

KRIS: I guess we should talk about the action

It’s almost funny that we haven’t, much

This is very much an action story

MARCHAE: There is so much action that’s for certain and I LOVE IT

KRIS: And all of the set pieces are distinct

MARCHAE: I love seeing it on the page, the pacing of it, how the panels are set up and YES the set pieces!!!!

KRIS: Which is definitely something superhero comics struggle with

Guided View is GREAT for these layouts

MARCHAE: It works beautifully and makes the work fly

KRIS: There have to be some good interviews out there with comic artists about how that’s influenced their approach in the last several years

MARCHAE: like the action legitimately in this comic soared off the page in my opinion I wanted to be in it

that’s really interesting I’ll have to take a gander

KRIS: I do have to say, I wished Andy’s axe had come back

MARCHAE: YES! She’s fierce!

theres a cover where she’s flailing that axe

She’s powerful

the look on her face

even and her posture

I LOVE THIS IMAGE

KRIS: For our readers, that variant cover is by Nicola Scott, Greg Rucka’s collaborator on Wonder Woman: Year One

Yeah even though I’ll tag this as a spoiler post I won’t include the axe sequence, everyone should have to go read the book to see it

It’s short but awesome

MARCHAE: Its so unapologetic and that makes me happy as a woman!

(re the axe photo)

but to talk about action

I really liked this and how it looked!

KRIS: so good

The other standout for me was the Crusade battle -- the use of silhouettes in the night scene

MARCHAE: it reminded me of the old school batman TV show but also has this frantic feel to it like if you are in the room - the images move almost

KRIS: And the use of the BANGs in the background instead of within most of the panels is really interesting

MARCHAE: OHHHHH that’s a great one too

KRIS: literal background noise

MARCHAE: it reminds me of sound

AHHHH YESSSS!!!!

visual cacaphony

which i suppose is a bizarre pairing of words but the best i could come up with

KRIS: It conveys the chaos but also leaves the actual action layouts clear

MARCHAE: nothing is left to confuse the reader - which when I was a newer reader of comics was always confusing

KRIS: Oh here’s that great banter scene:

MARCHAE: these comics are new user friendly

KRIS: Definitely an advantage of indie books

MARCHAE: I like that one - laughed a few time reading this book like legit noise came out which doesn’t happen terribly often

KRIS: I mean I get it, if you’re writing Big Two characters, you want to reference the stuff you grew up with, it can’t be an easy balance to make it accessible to new readers and rich for longtime readers, but still, you can’t blame people for having trouble getting into most recent Marvel or DC stuff

Yeah I guess a way to describe how humor works best for you is that in a scene like this it’s like, cathartic?

Or it’s a release valve

You like it as punctuation, not as the baseline

MARCHAE: I can read it now but I tried starting with Hellboy and was like ABSOLUTELY NOT!

KRIS: Oh that’s interesting because isn’t Hellboy indie? Was it that you jumped into a late story arc?

MARCHAE: I am not sure… if it is… All i know is that it was a challenged to follow on the page

I think I started at the beginning?

Also YES! in regards to humor!!! It’s kind of like a sigh 😊

KRIS: I only know the movies but I’d believe it’s just a weird-ass book as a first comic

MARCHAE: I do not love humor as a baseline - ever generally

LOLOl

it was not a good first jaunt I didn’t finish it and sold it back and the comic book store owner was like what do you like - we chatted and he handled me Lazarus

and I’ve been hooked on the comics since and they all have the same tone save one that I like called Alex and Ada

We’ve digressed again

KRIS: yep

I’m just grabbing a link for Alex and Ada to put into the post [see above]

MARCHAE: yeah its drastically different in tone from what I generally read - but the characters and story were pretty good!

Also an Image comic if I’m not mistaking

KRIS: Yes

MARCHAE: Yup!

KRIS: (For readers: Image is a publishing house like DC and Marvel, but all of its books are creator-owned and independent of each other, rather than company-owned characters in a shared universe)

MARCHAE: Correct! The ones I’ve read seem incredibly character driven to me and tend to be more focused on themes and ideas

What else are we missing - I feel like we’ve covered so much with this one trade!

?

KRIS: I was just gonna ask you that

We haven’t really talked about the villain but I think that’s okay

Don’t want to spoil everything

We really want you to read it yourselves, everyone!

MARCHAE: I really hope people read this one!

Along with the others we’ve recommended!

KRIS: It’s very accessible if you’re new to comics, the art is clean and you won’t have trouble following it, and Greg Rucka is arguably one of the most acclaimed writers in comics right now so I promise it’s not a risky buy

although MM did you get it from the library, you said?

MARCHAE: I did using the Hoopla App but I will probably eventually buy it for my collection (I do have a comic collection and I keep them in plastic!)

KRIS: Should we talk about the ending? I can add another FOR REAL MAJOR SPOILERS warning around here

[the VERY END is briefly discussed below]

MARCHAE: Can i just say I was absolutely sad when it ended

I was mad indeed

but yes let’s

KRIS: I really liked it

MARCHAE: I think I just wanted the book to keep going LOL

KRIS: Oh for sure

But there’s just a lot of great storytelling in those few pages

Even just that first page in Malta

MARCHAE: And it really is a hero saves the day type deal and shows Nile and Andy working collaboratively

again the art is beautiful (I just sent another image let me know if you get it)

KRIS: Just got it

Yeah it’s such a hero shot

MARCHAE: The entire team really comes together!

KRIS: And the use of light is great

MARCHAE: (sent over another one)

KRIS: Yeah I don’t think I’ll include that in the post for spoilers’ sake but it’s a great page

I think the “zoom out” makes it

MARCHAE: but even the quote at the end is amazing: “ Soldiers live and wonder why”

and it perfectly encapsulates what this story is about thematically

why do they - survivors guilt

the desire to move forward and be better

the desire to end something peacefully and in your own time

KRIS: Glen Cook is a fantasy author you might like -- maybe check out The Black Company

MARCHAE: but you do want this story to keep going and be with these characters for much longer than the trade allows

I WILL!!!

KRIS: Someone’s adapting that series for TV, I forget who but I think for one of the premium cable channels

More great body language:

MARCHAE: http://deadline.com/2017/04/eliza-dushku-star-the-black-company-series-adaptation-david-goyer-im-global-1202076367/

There are so many interpersonal nuances in this book it was fun to look at

KRIS: I like that Nico is very clearly ignoring Joe here -- no word balloons, but it’s obvious that this is heated

and classic Andy not wanting to deal

MARCHAE: he’s turned away from him entirely

KRIS: (I love that I can say “classic Andy” after just five issues)

MARCHAE: LOLOLOL

she’s so unimpressed by the entire situation

probably mentally sighing

KRIS: So what do you think of the punishment?

MARCHAE: its kind of devastating I think for Booker - It also makes me curious about what time feels like for these people

KRIS: Yeah

MARCHAE: What does 100 years feel like when you’ve lived a fafillion years already

KRIS: They have no friends besides each other

You don’t even really get the sense that Booker sleeps around the way Andy does because the team is a liiiiittle bit judgey about it in #1

MARCHAE: LOL they kind of are!

and it would just be complicated - we see that with Andy and her relationship

it reminds me of the first book of a series i like called the discovery of witches

just that idea of engaging in a relationship with someone who is mortal you’re constantly reminded that you are too much - and that the person you are with will never be enough for you because they will perish

https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/8667848-a-discovery-of-witches

(the text is now being turned into a major television show)

KRIS: I really love that the last two pages have no dialogue

It’s not a long epilogue at all but it also doesn’t feel too abrupt because those last two pages are a really well done kind of fade-out

MARCHAE: it’s incredibly effective - just as much as the opening which had very little dialogue

KRIS: I mean, just to really drive this home for everyone, not that I think anyone missed this, but THE LAST LINE OF THE BOOK IS “you’re alone”

And it’s so simple, it’s not a Dramatic! scene at all, it’s so understated, and that’s why it lands so hard

Andy’s not a Dramatic! person

MARCHAE: and you absolutely know she means it and is not in any way playing with this man

KRIS: ANDY DOES NOT PLAY

MARCHAE: Almost like I’ve worked to hard to get us here  - I’m disappointed and i hate to do this but it has to be done

KRIS: It’s so good

KRIS: I loved that it was basically telling both Daredevil and Birdman to go fuck themselves

No

MIRI: Hahahahahahha 

No I didn't

I'm not nearly the fight choreography conosieur that Kris is, but I was so fucking into this

(Wow spelled that so wrong autocorrect was stumped)

KRIS: I mean I did not have any reservations about any of the other fights, it was everything around the fights that was kind of uneven

MARCHAE: go on

KRIS: Not BAD, but uneven

MIRI: Say more

KRIS: Pacing felt weird sometimes?

This felt longer than its runtime

MARCHAE: (yes that is truth..>YES IT DID)

MIRI: Yeah, I can agree with that

KRIS: Maybe a little twistier, plot-wise, than was really justified, especially since it end-loaded the twists

MIRI: Yeah, the last few minutes were a bit of a mind fuck and not in a totally earned way

KRIS: The sound mixing was VERY interesting, but I wasn’t always sure it needed to be so showy

MIRI: This movie is showy down to its bones

and some ways that works better than others

KRIS: Although it did add to the disorientation

MARCHAE: (re the twists the text was similar in that way…)

KRIS: The sound mix I mean

Like going back and forth between having music in a scene be diegetic and not

I did like the way they used it in the bar where Lorraine meets Delphine though

MIRI: I feel like it was better directed, acted, and choreographed than it was written. Does that make sense?

KRIS: When you assume the REALLY LOUD CLUB MUSIC is diegetic but it cuts out really suddenly when the guy (was it Bremovych there?) offers a light

Yes

MIRI: Yeah, that moment was very nice

KRIS: But I feel like pacing often comes down to direction

MIRI: Fair

KRIS: All the performances are definitely great

MIRI: Seriously, all of them

MARCHAE: hmmm that’s interesting - I think that comes back to the writing - if the story has pacing problems - then that’s ultimately a structural problem with the story, no?

MIRI: I especially loved Lorraine’s German contact

KRIS: I think editing can have a lot to do with pacing too

MIRI: And obviously Theron, McAvoy, and Boutella

I think it can be any of the three, or a combo

MARCHAE: yeah… i thought about that as well @kris

MIRI: They all need to be good for it to work

KRIS: Did you feel like it at least played fair with the audience for most if not all of the twists?

MIRI: Yeah, I would say so. Things felt justified to me

KRIS: I felt like I got lost two or three or five times but at least some of those seemed to be deliberate and then I had “ohhhh” moments in act 3

MIRI: Hahahah which ones?

MARCHAE: Yeah, I think it is supposed to be a bit of a mystery  which is kind of nice

KRIS: God I don’t even know, there’s was a lot happening

But the one I’m still confused about is that I don’t remember what happened to the guy who killed Gascoin

MIRI: I was secretly hoping you’d name them all so I could refer to your superior memory

Ice pick to the brain, right?

KRIS: Oh, my mistake, it is Gasciogne

I’ll take your word for it

But there were several Angry Bearded Men

MIRI: I think that was the same angry bearded man

He had the list and was going to sell it

to the watchmaker man

MARCHAE: Oh yeah

MIRI: and Percival ice picked him because Gasciogne was his friend

KRIS: Oh man I totally thought Marton Csokas was playing Bakhtin but IMDB tells me I was wrong, I guess it was just two Angry Bearded Men

MARCHAE: HA!

MIRI: Shit, who was Bakhtin? Is that ice pick head?

KRIS: Yes

MIRI: I need to open the imdb page

Ok, Bremovych was the one who beat the guy in the warehouse, right? And smashed the boombox?

KRIS: Oh wow Gasciogne was [played by] the stunt coordinator [Sam Hargrave, who also doubled for Chris Evans in Captain America: Civil War]. Did not recognize him with his (not-angry) bread in the post-show interview

not-angry beard, not bread

And yes

MIRI: WHAAAAATTT???

KRIS: Bremovych was the boss

MIRI: He looks SO different with long hair and a beard

KRIS: He was EXTREMELY Angry

MIRI: Holy heck

Also, he grew that beard so fast!!!

KRIS: That scene could have ended sooner

MIRI: Yeah, wasn’t my favorite

KRIS: Not even for the brutality, which was partly offscreen, it was just one of the pacing things where I was like why is this happening

MIRI: Yeah, it dragged a little

And it wasn’t at all shiny

Like, even when things are grungy and bloody in the rest of it, it’s shiny

MARCHAE: so this is my last time brining up the text … it was very similar to me in that way

so similar that indeed some the dialogue came straight from it

MIRI: (not literally, like stylized)

Guys, go to Til Schweiger’s imdb page immediately

Not only is he a fox

KRIS: Like awkwardly long, you mean, Marchae?

MARCHAE: I wasn’t surprised to  see that it did have pacing issues - i honestly think that they thought they would make up for that with the action scenes.

MIRI: Apparently he’s Germany's best-known actor and also the country's most successful director

(He’s the watchmaker guy)

MARCHAE: @miri - WOW!

@kris what do you mean the text

KRIS: That scene in particular

MARCHAE: so here’s the thing… she doesn’t fight AT ALL in the text

in fact i think she fires a gun once

MIRI: WHAT

WHAAAATTTTTTTTT

That is a significant change

MARCHAE: and as far as other acts of violence it was literally like a few gun shots if i remember correctly

KRIS: Like is Bremovych’s introduction just panels and panels and panels of kicking noises and pained reaction shots?

MARCHAE: not even…

MIRI: And makes the fact that they stayed so close to the text in other ways fascinating

MARCHAE: it is incredibly slow and much of the action, similar to in the film would be in the last couple of dozen pages

MIRI: What?

MARCHAE: legitimately i believe they slayed her out made her tough because otherwise it would have been a historical drama

and that would have been an entirely different film

MIRI: Also because the director is a stunt guy, probably.

MARCHAE: it was not an excited graphic novel (GN)

exciting*

that’s why i thought it would be interesting to read and see the movie i was like wow this will be an awesome comic

and it is if you are interested in historical GN about russians ( I am not generally)

but I was expecting LOADS of fighting

nope

so to see that on the screen made the film 1000000 times more enjoyable

MIRI: Nice

I really really loved that the fight choreography wasn’t Sexy lady Fight Choreography

MARCHAE: but they definitely compensated for the other shortcomings which i thought was this weird desire to stay close to the source in terms of story but create a film that would be able to kind of catch some of the wind that was left behind by the other female centric films of the summer season

ok that’s all

YES

MIRI: They were deliberate about the fact that she was smaller than most of the guys, yes, but she fucking fought

She took hits

MARCHAE: i also love that she’s not young

or incredibly frail

MIRI: She was brutal and they were too and it was amazing

KRIS: Lorraine getting the shit kicked out of her was definitely the distinctive thing

MARCHAE: that made the back of my knee caps hurt

but she held her own and prevails

MIRI: I do have the tiniest quibble with the fact that they kept her unmarked from fights that totally would have bruised/scraped her up in the beginning because they needed her in sexy club outfits

But past that point they did a nice job of letting her be marked by the fights without being afraid to make her less pretty or whatever

KRIS: It gets you invested in the character AND gives Lorraine the character development/revelation of having the stronger will, as the stunt guy put it

I guess I assumed she was using makeup to cover stuff up early on?

MIRI: Eh, I don’t 100% buy that but it also doesn’t super bother me

MARCHAE: i don’t know that it registers with me much… i think because she’s so battered at the end …

doesn’t she soak in a tub of something at one point?

KRIS: I think the ice bath is just at the beginning, which is advanced in the timeline of the story

MIRI: Yes, in the beginning bookend she’s in her AMAZING giant ass tub filled with ice cubes

And she does something similar in Berlin

All of the tubs in this movie were giant and I want them

The Berlin time was where you got the cool underwater shot of her face in the neon light

KRIS: Oh right

MARCHAE: i just never quite figured out what it was that she was able to look mostly okay…

i thought it was medicinal but i guess it was just ice

MIRI: Well she did do a bunch of makeup after that

MARCHAE: also it was an incredible shot

MIRI: And it couldn’t hide everything

Which? Neon Berlin bath or opening London bath?

Both were cool but I’m assuming you meant the London one

MARCHAE: the blue one?

MIRI: The one they used in the trailers, where she then adds some of the ice to her drink?

MARCHAE: YES

MIRI: Yes! That was very cool!

With the perspective flip and all

M: And the bathtub is SO BIG

MARCHAE: it was so good

so i know you all mentioned earlier that it wasn’t shiny

KRIS: There was a lot of playing with perspective in the cinematography

MIRI: Only that warehouse scene

(re: not shiny)

MARCHAE: gotcha

MIRI: The rest totally was

which I mostly loved

And to Kris’s point--yes! Most of it very cool

MARCHAE: sorry i was just going to add that i thought it was a sexy looking film

which i suppose also goes to kris’ point about cinematography

MIRI: The one I think about most is the sexy one, actually--the cut from them making out in the club to the sex scene

(which again, they used in the trailers a lot)

(well, the red band ones anyway)

MARCHAE: i did like that

KRIS: I feel like there were also a lot of reflections

Like when she’s leaving Delphine’s apartment near the end

MIRI: Yes! God that one broke my heart

MARCHAE: (side note…there is no Delphine in the text)

KRIS: And for awhile it’s just two Lorraines and I was like “hmm this is unnecessary” and then you see Delphine

MIRI: well, Theron did say that she’d need a Bond girl if she ever played Bond

KRIS: I think having a female love interest was actually the writer’s idea

MARCHAE: OhHHHHH

MIRI: That makes me so happy

MARCHAE: yeah it had to be because it didn’t exist… it takes the place of another relationship or is ore of a composite

I liked it and I thought it made the character much more interesting and gave her more than we generally get

MIRI: As does the way Theron has addressed Lorraine’s bisexuality in interviews

I was really afraid that it would be a surface level portrayal of bisexuality

KRIS: “I remember sitting in a room one day thinking about how do you make this different from other spy movies,” Theron says. “It’s really hard. Who is going to be the love interest? Kurt, who’s a punk rock writer, suggested she falls in love with a woman.”

http://ew.com/movies/2017/04/26/charlize-theron-breaks-down-her-steamy-love-affair-in-atomic-blonde/

MARCHAE: Nice!

MIRI: I was afraid she would have an emotional connection to the dude and a purely sexual, over-sexualized connection with the girl

But it was not that at all

MARCHAE: no - i mad that delphine died and i think bugged by how she died as well

KRIS: But I also liked that the emotional connection wasn’t really just “whirlwind romance” but also ended up being about Lorraine mourning what being in “the game” does to people

MIRI: I am angry that Delphine had her damn headphones on when she knew someone might come and kill her

that was dumb

MARCHAE: **snaps fingers @miri and @kris**

MIRI: Kris, that’s a really good point and I agree

MARCHAE: i wished she’d been able to fight more i think. 

AND YES MIRI DUMMMBBBBBBBBB

KRIS: It at least didn’t feel like a fridging, though, in that Lorraine’s motivations weren’t really changed and she never had like a breakdown scene or anything

I think on some level there’s an expectation of a Sofia Boutella character Kicking All of the Ass 

but at least to me it was important to the story that she be green

MIRI: (btw that’s not to say there aren’t bi people who are bisexual and hetero or homoromantic or to cast shade on them! It’s just a very often a very stereotyped portrayal in media)

KRIS: She’s on her first assignment and “only been here for a year” vs. Percival, a station chief, having “gone native”

MIRI: Yeah, it did mostly work for the character

and I liked that she was green and in over her head

It made her a very nice foil to both Lorraine and Percival

KRIS: Especially with Lorraine being allll the way on the other end of the spectrum as a triple agent

MIRI: How old is McAvoy?

KRIS: 38

MARCHAE: born 1979

MIRI: Oh, he’s a bit older than I thought--he’s only 4 years younger than Theron

I thought he was more in the middle of her age and Boutella’s

KRIS: Boutella is also older than she looks

35

MIRI: Holy crap she is

born in 82

Wow, I would have said mid twenties

I’m so bad at ages

MARCHAE: I didn’t realize she was as old as she is!

KRIS: I do think mid 20s is what she’s playing here

MIRI: Yeah, seems like

Can we discuss the outfits? Because they are amazing

MARCHAE: OH MY GAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHH

I turned to my friend and said i need to start dressing like all of these women! it was its own character and kind of a love letter to the era

MIRI: Lorraine’s commitment to GIANT sweaters/tops with no pants is AMAZING

MARCHAE: YESSS

YESSS

KRIS: (To go back for just a second, my objection to “whirlwind romance” definitely applies to couples of all configurations -- it’s the one thing that doesn’t totally land for me in Casino Royale)

MIRI: It says SO much about her

KRIS: I did like that as a consistent choice

MIRI: She’ll dress however she has to for work

But whenever she can be, she’s COMFY AS HELL

MARCHAE: and i appreciated it and she fights in a hoodie i think at one point

MIRI: I mean she still looks amazing, but no pants, giant shirt

Yes!

MARCHAE: although i didn’t love that she was perpetually in heels!

NOPE NOPE NOPE NOPE

my feet hurt for her but that’s an aside

MIRI: Yeah, I feel like some flat ankle boots would have been better

MARCHAE: although am glad she can work it that way

MIRI: But I do believe that she would do it

KRIS: Yeah

MARCHAE: kudos to the women who can fight in heels

oh yeah all the marvel women seem to do it

KRIS: I also thought Theron was taller than me, but she’s the same height

MARCHAE: how tall is that?

so our readers have a frame of reference :)

KRIS: I think we’re not actually supposed to notice most of the Marvel heels though

I’m either 5-9 or 5-10

MIRI: Kris wants to remain mysterious, Marchae

or not

KRIS: IMDB lists her at 5-9 1/2

MARCHAE: LOLOLOLOL

miri i thought the same

(we aren’t?)

MIRI: Not sure. We might be supposed to just accept that that’s how superhero women look

Like Barbies, with their feet always arched

MARCHAE: interesting

KRIS: (I feel like they’re mostly to make Johansson and Smulders tall enough to make framing shots easier? I don’t know though)

MIRI: I think that’s definitely part of it, if not all

I’m just being snarky

KRIS: Gamora being the (infuriating) exception

MIRI: I like to play to my strengths 

Ughhhhhhhh readers, please refer to our Guardians Volume 2 reaction for more!

Percival’s sense of dress is batshit and amazing

He wears sweater vests as shirts

And his giant coat!

MARCHAE: LOLOL

KRIS: Hard to go wrong with a good giant coat

MARCHAE: (ok another book spoiler… Percival is an older man who’s always in a trench coat- ALWAYS)

MIRI: Whaaaaaat

Is he all wily and gone-native?

Does he drink Jack and hide things in his fake cast?

KRIS: I loved the fake cast

MIRI: It was brilliant

MARCHAE: well yes and no.. he has no cast at all he’s completely in tact because there was not a ton of violence and he is a bit what’s the word not aways nice

the fake cast was great!

MIRI: Does “a bit what’s the word not aways nice” mean he was a dick in Marchae-speak?

MARCHAE: LOLOLOLOLOLOL

KRIS: I know this wasn’t McAvoy’s first Fun Role but it was the first one I’ve seen him in

MARCHAE: yeah he kind of was

MIRI: He’s fun in First Class!

KRIS: I guess First Class-era Charles Xavier has a little fun but he pretty quickly has to do the Mentor thing

MIRI: Fair

KRIS: He’s fun until he gets his doctorate, basically

MARCHAE: I DID NOT REALIZE THAT WAS HIM IN ELENOR RIGBY

KRIS: Yep

MARCHAE: get the heck out

I liked him in Split

he’s kind of a good actor

KRIS: He rarely gets to do his own accent (Scottish)

MIRI: I LOVE his accent

MARCHAE: (HE WAS ALSO GNOMEO!!!)

KRIS: Oh he’s great, I’ve been a fan since pre-Chronicles of Narnia

MARCHAE: oh my word i am learning of all these movies i’ve loved him in and didn’t realize it was him

wow then i guess i Love him too

thanks gang

how cool!

MIRI: He’s amazing in Atonement

KRIS: I wonder if I should’ve seen Victor Frankenstein

Probably not, but still

MARCHAE: lol

KRIS: Does someone want to talk about the music?

MARCHAE: it was it’s own character and definitely a love letter to the 80s i appreciated it as a detail that was paid particular attention to in the film

MIRI: I like 99 Luftballoons

MARCHAE: and i sometimes watch people when i go to the movies which i know is weird, but you saw a lot of people dancing in their seats and lip singing to it

KRIS: Is “love letter” enough of a reason to do something though?

MIRI: Just in general

MARCHAE: it was cool

KRIS: I liked the use of covers

But maybe post-Baby Driver I’m a little oversaturated on the whole “music as a character” thing

MIRI: I mean, this whole movie is kind of a love letter to its aesthetics

KRIS: Also partly because the composer for this is the composer on the Guardians movies

Which do the same thing -- heavy, showy music supervision, totally forgettable original score

MARCHAE: I don’t know Kris - I think maybe it is sometimes because you interact with people on a different level

MIRI: Yeah, I couldn’t tell you a single thing about any of the original score

KRIS: Say more MM

MARCHAE: I think because i was very young during the time in which the film is set, but the music triggers memories of what was happening, so now in my mind i am going back saying -yes the Berlin wall - and not from something I learned in class - but instead at home as a kid - but it’s because the music triggered that more than the image necessarily… also because of the kind of tv i was watching as a kid so like the cartoons

KRIS: I will say that the near-oppressiveness of the soundtrack in most of the movie made the music-less long-take fight that much better for the contrast

MARCHAE: but then you ALSO now get to engage those people who maybe weren’t sold on the movie at least now excited about how it sounds and what will be next

KRIS: I guess that makes sense, but what does it have to do with how I interact with people?

MARCHAE: I think as a writer/director you are interacting with all of my senses (save smell but I’ll even argue that)

so i hear how it, what it makes me think of after the fact and why

am i dancing in my seat and saying thats my jam

or i loved it

i think that kind of thing

KRIS: Oh, so when you said “you interact with people on a different level” that was the general You, not You-Kris

?

MARCHAE: yeah general you

not you KM

sorry i should have been more clear

MIRI: The English language is imperfect

KRIS: I’m curious to see more movies from both David Leitch (this) and Chad Stahelski (the other John Wick director, who directed JW 2 solo)

Because I want to know if Stahelski is a better solo director or if there’s something else behind the pacing differences in this and JW2

I mean besides the obvious genre difference

MARCHAE: (aside number 554 from marchae - i need to watch JW and JW2 )

MIRI: I need to watch JW2

KRIS: I keep forgetting MM hasn’t seen the first one, especially ever since we realized she loves action movies

MIRI: I keep forgetting that amazing fact

❤️ 

KRIS: (WATCH HAYWIRE)

MIRI: (WE WILL AT SOME POINT I PROMISE)

KRIS: I feel like somehow we haven’t said enough about Charlize Theron

KRIS: (WE DON’T HAVE TO REACT TO IT I’m just saying)

MIRI: (ALSO I MIGHT FINALLY BE READY TO WATCH BLAICK SAILS)

MARCHAE: (I WILL)

MIRI: Let’s talk about Theron

Because she is AMAZING in this movie

KRIS: She definitely holds the whole thing together

If the performance had been a few notches less confident I would’ve gotten bored

I think

MARCHAE: she is brilliant

to go back to the text she gives that character so much LIFE

KRIS: I mean even just the button on the first interrogation sequence -- the pause before and the delivery of “Fuck”

MIRI: People laughed out loud at that moment

MARCHAE: oh yea

she has this kind of wit about her that i love and she’s coy which is awesome

and she freaking in her 40s

KRIS: That was one of the more successful uses of a dragged-out moment

50 is the new 40, not to be a cliche

MIRI: Are people saying that?

KRIS: Even more than John Wick this made me think of Banshee, which also has a 40-something female action lead (though she’s not THE lead)

MIRI: I mean I endorse it wholeheartedly

KRIS: I mean just in general with regard to __ is the new __

MARCHAE: LOL

MIRI: Between this and Proud Mary, I’m all in for movies about women old enough to be my aunties killing people with great skill

KRIS: I’m always going to prefer hand-to-hand to gunfights (and gunfights to car chases)

MARCHAE: And doing so unapologetically it’s about time we get to see women use their bodies in ways that are indicative of strength

i do love a good car chase that ends with a fiery crash

MIRI: @Marchae YESSSSSS YES YES

MARCHAE: those are cool

MIRI: @Kris, how did you feel about the Atomic Blonde car chase?

KRIS: It was fine, and it wasn’t really about the cars was it?

Unless I’m forgetting a car chase

Which I would believe

MIRI: Ah, so you mean you’re not into Baby Driver car chases (as much as gun fights, at least)

KRIS: Right

MIRI: No, it was more cars as blunt weapons and gun shields, not a drag race or anything

KRIS: BUT there is a fun little Charlize Theron car anecdote in the Anne Helen Petersen profile I posted earlier

MIRI: About her in the Woody Allen movie?

Oh, I’m mixing up movies from that profile

KRIS: ...I think I am forgetting a car chase

MARCHAE: HA!

MIRI: From Atomic Blonde?

MARCHAE: she also learned a lot of her own stunts

MIRI: Or something else?

KRIS: Yeah

MARCHAE: There were two

KRIS: When you said it I was just thinking of Percival chasing the car Lorraine had gotten into when she landed

Jesus Christ Kris

MARCHAE: YUP

MIRI: Ohhhh, I forgot about that one

MARCHAE: i was just typing that

with the shoe

MIRI: I was talking about the other one

K: I guess I blanked on it since it’s part of the oner and especially because we never leave the inside of Lorraine’s car 

KRIS: Start looking for the name 87 Eleven a lot more, I think

MIRI: I did like the shoe thing

KRIS: They’re the stunt/action design people

MIRI: They did damn good work

MARCHAE: they were really good!

KRIS: This and the John Wicks

Also a “Special Thanks” on Power Rangers?

MARCHAE: ok i get it… I’ll watch JW 😊

MIRI: Huh

Maybe they consulted

KRIS: Stephanie Beatriz started training there recently, not for a part but to get in shape for potentially being an action hero

MIRI: WHAT

KRIS: She’s posted a couple of “I’m dying” videos to her Instagram story

MIRI: she'd be good, too. She has dance training 

I need to watch more Instagram videos

KRIS: I feel like we’re running out of steam but we have to go back to the long fight

MIRI: Pause for a sec, grabbing my laundry

KRIS: I felt like a lot of the apartment fight was in the trailers so I was a smudge concerned the same would happen in the stairwell

While we wait, here’s Jessica Chastain punching the air:

https://twitter.com/jes_chastain/status/891493560993947648

MARCHAE: LOL

yes

they were both brilliant fight scenes!

KRIS: I absolutely will not accept The Huntsman as the only time Jessica Chastain gets to be an action hero

MARCHAE: she’d make an amazing superhero!!

KRIS: Especially because that was such a stunt-double-heavy character

She’s in talks to be in the next X-Men as a Space Empress

But I don’t think she’d get to do much fighting

MARCHAE: dang! i’d love to see her kick some doors down

MIRI: Ok I’m back!

And I fully support Chasten as action hero!

*Chastain

KRIS: So a bit of this fight is the very first thing most of the world saw of Atomic Blonde

Which obviously turned out to be the smartest possible trailer move

(Maybe “most” is an exaggeration)

MIRI: Right, but the sheer length of it is not something you understand from the trailer, which is nice

KRIS: Yeah, basically the trailer part ends before Spyglass gets his little comic beat

“Two more”

MIRI: Because it means you don’t lose the impact in the moment by showing it in the trailer

KRIS: And I was like “Aw, only two more?”

MIRI: Loved the Spyglass beats

KRIS: But then everyone just... kept... getting... back... up

MIRI: that one, and him doing the tape in the apartment

MARCHAE: RIGHT

MIRI: Yeah, she has the most will, but they all has a LOT

KRIS: So hang on, have either of you watched Daredevil?

MIRI: especially bleach blond guy with the neo nazi haircut

Key-face

KRIS: Or at least that fight? You know the one even if you haven’t seen it

MIRI: I have only watched part of the first season

Not that one, not

*no

MARCHAE: I starting watching part of the first season

MIRI: I’ve heard of the fight you mean

MARCHAE: ( I actually liked it and am not sure why I didn’t keep going)

KRIS: It’s the end of the second episode

MIRI: Same!

Oh, then maybe I did and I’m just blanking

huh

KRIS: We don’t need to watch it right now but the salient points are that it’s maybe still the best fight scene TV has ever had

And does a similar thing with exhaustion

MIRI: Oh, interesting

KRIS: But they tried to one-up themselves in season 2 with a longer, flashier oner

(Which incidentally also involved a staircase)

But without the exhaustion bit

MARCHAE: Nice!

MIRI: Staircases are good. They give new height differences

KRIS: And it’s Cool and all, but feels much emptier as an exercise than the first one, which is confined to one hallway

MARCHAE: I liked seeing them on the stairs there is also a new element of danger and stakes … like if i fall or get thrown over…

KRIS: Which is why this fight in Atomic Blonde felt almost like a direct response

MARCHAE: ohhhhhhh

KRIS: And specifically a Suck It, Daredevil

I mean I don’t know if it actually was

But I enjoyed thinking it

In that Daredevil s2 fight Matt just absolutely owns everyone who comes at him

Which can be cool

MARCHAE: now i really want to watch

KRIS: But the back-and-forth and the exhaustion justified the technical showiness in AB

MIRI: I liked that Lorraine was really good, but wasn’t Impossibly Better Than Everyone

KRIS: Also really liked the commitment to improvised weapons

MIRI: Key-face is super good too, she’s just got more will in the end

I love that

MARCHAE: Yeah that was brutal

MIRI: The hot plate!!!

KRIS: And the shot revealing the corkscrew, and the audience reaction to seeing the corkscrew

MIRI: WHY IS IT ALWAYS CORKSCREWS????

MARCHAE: I’m cringing thinking of it….

KRIS: I guess because you can hold them for punching?

MIRI: In the last calendar year, I have seen three movies where a woman stabs someone with a corkscrew

THREE

KRIS: What were the other two?

MARCHAE: they are small and compact

MIRI: The Girl on the Train

MARCHAE: OHHHHH yes

*cringing again*

MIRI: and Clinical, which is a Netflix movie the company I used to intern for produced

KRIS: Oh I haven’t seen but I guess there would have actually been wine in proximity

I read Clinical

MIRI: Yeah, the fight between her and the girl in the kitchen

Spoilers for both of those, I guess

KRIS: Yeah to go back to something Miri said it was a cool choice that the fighting in this wasn’t as stylized as in something like John Wick

Which made the choreography in a larger sense more creative

Because of the improvised weapons, the use of the locations, etc

MIRI: I really like how most of the movie is so stylized, but the fights were so gritty

KRIS: Whereas the locations in so many action movies are basically irrelevant

MIRI: I mean, obviously super choreographed because they’re not insane

MARCHAE: they felt authentic

i could not every fight in that way, but you looked at that and thought yup a person could actually do this… it was believable!

MIRI: Honestly, the lack of stunt doubles made this so much better

KRIS: OH

MIRI: Because it can feel that real

What?

KRIS: I really loved that Lorraine covers her face in the end of the apartment fight, when she’s outside before the last two cops arrive

And that I thought this was going to be a moment for a cut to a double

But then they hold the shot until she lowers her collar again

MIRI: Why did you love that?

KRIS: Just to have my expectation of a double subverted

MIRI: Ah, gotcha

KRIS: It felt VERY oh, here’s a good excuse to cut around her

And then it wasn’t, it really was just Lorraine protecting her identity

MIRI: I just didn’t know why she did it--she lowers it immediately after, so it doesn’t seem effective to keep her identity secret!

I guess from those two cops

Or anyone who might have been coming, but then no one did

MARCHAE: that’s what i thought, it also looked really cool, she’s a spy and has to just keep cover, she’s always on alert

KRIS: And of course the other thing about the realism of the fighting in this is the gender thing -- Natasha Romanoff is always kicking and spinning

MIRI: Which is a cool and valid fighting form

But it shouldn’t be ALL THE TIME

KRIS: And Charlize Theron’s legs are like a mile long so not just from gender but from Charlize Theron you would expect something similar

MIRI: I loved that Lorraine was a brawler

KRIS: And obviously men can kick and spin and that’s the point of like, Tae Kwon Do, but outside of Asian productions you don’t see it a lot in movies

MARCHAE: i am thinking and you really don’t, KM

KRIS: There’s so much throwing people into other things in this too, which is great

Just like, use every object and surface that’s harder than a fist

Because hand bones can break relatively easily

MIRI: I loved when they went through the film screen

MARCHAE: that’s what made it so gritty and brutal  - it’s like what you’d hope you’d do if an intruder were coming into your house

YES

KRIS: The movie they were watching there, Stalker, is one of Andy S’s favorites

I wonder if there was any significance to that choice

other than the year

MIRI: Of course it’s one of Flash’s faves

Flash/Andy was our screenwriting professor most committed to Art

I really loved the umbrella thing

KRIS: Yeah, I find Convenient Crowd Things hit or miss but this one worked for me

MARCHAE: it looked great too

KRIS: I guess because they’d established Merkel well in advance

MIRI: perhaps because it was an Engineered Crowd Thing

KRIS: Right, but even those

MIRI: I really did love Merkel

KRIS: Just a poor choice of words on my part

MIRI: Oh, gotcha

KRIS: I guess I mean that I bought Merkel having that level of influence

And usually I’m like, really? This would have taken a lot of logistics

MIRI: Yeah, I’m with you

KRIS: Also, it matters that it didn’t ultimately succeed

Because BETRAYAL

MIRI: Multi-layered betrayal!

MARCHAE: HA

it really was (please promise you’ll read the texxxttttt it’s just so awesome to see what was changed and what was kept the same)

MIRI: Now, why exactly was Percival trying to kill Lorraine? (Was he? She says so, but Spyglass makes more sense)

KRIS: I think Spyglass was definitely the main target but she’d have been a loose end, right?

MIRI: That makes sense

I got a little lost in the twists at the end

KRIS: Seriously

MIRI: And he knew she was Satchel

But not that she was a triple agent, of course

MARCHAE: all of these things i agree with

KRIS: Yeah, the Satchel thing is something I’d want to try to pay more attention to on a rewatch

Just a lot of moving parts and sibilants to keep track of

MIRI: Definitely

MARCHAE: and gathered from it… but i do want to rewatch because it was a lot

MIRI: Sibilants?

KRIS: S sounds? Did I use it wrong?

MIRI: No, that’s right! Just didn’t follow and thought it had a different meaning I didn’t know

But you meant names with s sounds, etc. Which there are a lot of

KRIS: And which there’s no good reason for

MIRI: True

MARCHAE: LOL

KRIS: Any other thoughts?

MIRI: I loved it

MARCHAE: READ THE BOOK!

KRIS: I had a brief thought about how nudity was shot

MIRI: Share it

KRIS: Which was just that there’s nudity when it makes sense but even in and around the sex scene the camera didn’t seem to be leering

Like there’s not active avoidance of nipples or anything but also no lingering on them

MIRI: Agreed, though the buzzfeed review I saw earlier mentions the camera leering on her legs a bit, but no more than it leers at punches or neon or anything

KRIS: I mean “showy, aestheticized sex” is also accurate (I do like Alison Willmore a lot as a critic)

MIRI:Your bench of critics is so deep and I love it

KRIS: And now I’m just watching this gif she included of people being thrown down that stairwell

MARCHAE: he does have a good variety

KRIS: I wonder how many actual cuts there were in that oner

MIRI: I’m thinking about how similar Lorraine and Percival actually are

in that they have such long-term false personas and they’re SO GOOD at maintaining them, but also not perfect

KRIS: (Now I want a crossover with The Americans)

MIRI: Also we have not discussed her scene with the Russians at the end

And we should because it was baller

The shot of the gun in the ice was great

KRIS: Yeah

MIRI: Like, we saw a decent amount of it in the trailer

MARCHAE: ohhhhh yessssss

MIRI: and yet is was still so effective

And that wig and the outfit were amazing

MARCHAE: she was also barefoot

KRIS: Right, the story context automatically makes it way more interesting

MARCHAE: ( i mean she was probably just over it after wearing heels the entire movie)

KRIS: I had more or less forgotten there was one more action scene left

MIRI: There’s so much in this movie

KRIS: And it’s the most stylized fight but still had that, I guess, un-rushed quality to it?

MARCHAE: there is a lot - i repeat again, they knew they had to to make this an action film! those scenes let you forgive so much

MIRI: Yeah, there never felt like much danger to her in that one, whereas there was in the others

KRIS: Lorraine wasn’t like a John Wick-level gun wizard

K: I might be wrong about this, actually, GUESS I’LL JUST HAVE TO REWATCH ALL THESE MOVIES

Yeah! I guess that’s it too, that she felt totally in control of it

MIRI: She knew exactly how it would play out

And that she’d get to go home soon

Also, can I just say how much I loved the “cocksucker” moment, and the end callback to it?

KRIS: YES

Surprisingly hilarious take on the “What?” “What?” conversation trope

MIRI: You can play the tape back

They did a good job letting there be comedic moments without shoehorning them in

KRIS: (This is minor and SUPER action-nerdy but I also appreciated Theron/Lorraine’s pistol handling when she wasn’t shooting -- how she folds her arms in to keep the barrel at the right height and orientation for having to quickly aim and shoot)

(You can tell if an action star did their homework by how often they keep their arms totally extended when holding a handgun)

K: Actually I think worse is the thing where they hold it by their face while pointing the barrel straight up

MIRI: I did not at all notice it, but that’s a cool detail!

(I’m now sitting on my bed holding out a finger gun in various positions to see what feels right)

KRIS: I don’t think we can do a better, more fitting ending line than the movie’s own

You want the honors?

MIRI: I’m honestly blanking on what it was! I’m so embarrassed!!!

KRIS: I’m glad it was convincing

Follow us on Twitter for steady retweets of even more critics Kris likes to namecheck, along with screenwriters and general entertainment reporting. Also for links to future Reactions, of course.

To Keagan Michael Key [Ethan] when he wants to come clean about the affair makes me angry

MARCHAE: Sam and Ethan 

But I think it's supposed to make you kind of angry 

But you know they are miserable 

It's kind of like the payment they get for having, excuse my language, dicked their partners around

ADAM: The creators watched shows like Casual, Difficult People, You’re the Worst, Girls and tried to replicate that form. They are doing it because they think people want unlikeable characters.

MARCHAE: Simultaneously it's kind of a tragic love story 

I don't find them entirely unlikable though

ADAM: A show like You’re The Worst has terrible fucking people in it, but when everything boils down to the core there is some humanity in them.

With Friends From College these characters are just plain terrible trying to justify that they aren’t terrible.

K: Caroline Framke at Vox called it a bad show about worse people

MARCHAE: I don't think they are terrible!!!! 

Lisa isn't

Tell me how Lisa is terrible?!?!

K: I will agree I don’t actually think Lisa is terrible, or at least unlike the others she’s never actively insufferable

They are all kind of midlife crisis

ADAM: Which one is Lisa again?

MARCHAE: Married to Ethan (Keegan Key)

ADAM: She sleeps cheats on her husband

MARCHAE: *Sighs*

She explains why and of those cheating she actually has the "most justifiable" reason

K: She does immediately regret it and almost-immediately come clean, and Ethan takes the opportunity to be Generously Forgiving instead of coming clean like he’d planned, which makes him King Asshole

ADAM: She forces Ethan to break into a pharmacy

MARCHAE: Because SHE WANTS A BABY

K: This is one of the only storylines I like, because it lets Smulders do some actually great dramatic acting. But I wouldn’t even call it an arc, because it never feels resolved so much as dropped halfway through the season.

ADAM: And ruins Felix’s birthday surprise

MARCHAE: and it's funny

ADAM: So what

MARCHAE: I think it is a study in the absurdity of being privileged 

They do whatever they want 

And have minimal consequences until there are consequences 

While the show comments to that it does so using HUMOR 

So I personally feel like you should have laughed

Hard

And often

ADAM: It’s privileged assholes with a token black friend

K: Hey now, they also have an Asian friend. Who arguably feels more like a token than Ethan. 

But I don’t know that I’d charge the show with tokenism; or at least, the cross-section feels pretty familiar to me, as Expensive New England Liberal Arts College demographics go.

MARCHAE: (Ok you have a point there) 

Ethan also notes that in one episode by making a remark about what black men can't do

I really think it's a social commentary

ADAM: Social commentary on what

MARCHAE: The fact that privileged people can do whatever they want with few repercussions and that their problems are clearly as the kids say #firstworld 

I mean come on 

These people know all the right people they aren't terribly efficient or socially prepared to be in the world yet they all make it 

And that's how the world works 

And I think the show knows it

K: But how is it a commentary? It shows privilege, but that’s not the same thing.

ADAM: I wouldn’t say they make it. When it’s handed to them

MARCHAE: No they are all surviving and thriving there 

Sam has her fancy job 

I still don't entirely know what she does (I have to rewatch) 

K: I think she sells furniture?

Nick is a trust fund baby 

AND THEY ALL WENT TO HARVARD

K: But the creators/showrunners also went to Harvard, and no one in the show is anything but affectionate about it, and I never get critique vibes at all as opposed to maybe some self-congratulatory vibes. Which would be totally fine! If the show was better.

ADAM: There is no true arc to these characters either

MARCHAE: it's great they're lives suck and they have it all 

DONT EVEN 

they dooooo

(Well some of them)

Explain though

ADAM: Sam wants to keep her perfect life does not feel guilty about cheating

Fred Savage just keeps doing what he is doing even after his partner (the only good thing about the show) leaves him

Nat Faxon floats in and out of episodes to be a comedic partner for Colby Smulders

K: And the main ostensible arc, of Ethan and Sam reckoning with their affair, is very deliberately not resolved, in a weirdly abrupt series ending

MARCHAE: I beg to differ we do see Sam finally realize she's wrong -and Max (Savage) does change a bit and we see the evolution of him kind of realizing: wait these folks might be ruining my life 

Nat’s character I WILL give you

ADAM: He NEVER realizes that

MARCHAE: He doooeeeessssssss

He does we know he does he says it all when he's drunk 

And also admits he might have a crush on Ethan

ADAM: He threw a temper tantrum at the end when they weren’t doing the bill Clinton musical

MARCHAE: He did and that musical was hilarious 

Admit that much at least

ADAM: We never saw the musical

MARCHAE: We saw a number from it 

Did we watch the same show?

K: Even the show thinks the musical is terrible

ADAM: Clearly not

Can we talk about how the tone always shifts?

MARCHAE: I didn't think so 

But go maybe I'll change my mind I'm flexible

ADAM: The two big stand outs are the wine tasting tour

And the one where they go back to Harvard

The wine tasting tour especially

The let’s get them all drunk and see what happens

K: I agree about the tonal inconsistency, and also particularly hate this episode, except the very end when Felix tells Max the group’s whole deal is pathetic. I want to like this episode because it seems to know that it should be told from Felix’s point of view, but it mostly doesn’t come across that way. It’s just a lot of insufferable antics, with some Lisa angst interspersed.

I think it also with the uneven performance by Keegan Michael Key

The director/creator never really knew how to work with him

At moments he’s just doing impressions and voices that you would see on Key and Peele then he’s this starving unappreciated writer

MARCHAE: The impressions were a personality flaw that they explain in the first or second episode 

K: Lampshading is not the same as justifying! Just because there are some lines about it doesn’t mean it works.

I loved the Harvard episode

K: I wanted to, for reasons that will be obvious to our former classmates, but I feel like they crammed two A-stories in under half an hour and neither Harvard nor the Caymans got enough real-estate

ADAM: They threw Kate McKinnon in there to be this weird YA author

I know that, but he is doing them at weird times

MARCHAE: It's his tick. They call him on it too

I could have honestly done without Kate 

It was weird. I'll give you that one 

K: I didn’t hate it, but I also don't keep up with SNL so maybe my Kate McKinnon oversaturation point is just way different from everyone else’s

His voice impressions were supposed to be anytime he was angry or disagrees with something. I think it added levity to some of the more stressful moments

ADAM: I liked how they poked fun at YA and the twist with Wolf Trials

K: But our readers may appreciate this Mary Sue article defending YA

MARCHAE: HA!

MARCHAE: but i feel like there was so much to like there

ADAM: Here’s a question: In two parts. Sam and Ethan got together when they were Freshmen right?

MARCHAE: yup i think so ( I feel like now I have the PLEASURE of going back to rewatch)

ADAM: Ethan and Lisa got together when he was a Senior and she was Freshmen

MARCHAE: yeah

ADAM: Sam explains they kept having these flings why didn’t they just stay together?

MARCHAE: I honestly thought the same thing - however, I assumed it was because she said whenever they are together she makes poor choices

ADAM: I mean shit, he carved their initials into his dorm wall

MARCHAE: RIGHT!

I will say I questioned the same thing many many many many times and if it was anything that bugged me that was kind of it

ADAM: Smart thing to do is that they never got together in college and are now doing it

MARCHAE: AGREED on that front

ADAM: That speaks to the unevenness of the story

MARCHAE: I think I explained it kind of like they are magnetic for each other ( I don’t necessarily mean it romantically though)

K: Does the show ever really sell this? I don’t think it gives Annie Parisse enough to work with as Sam.

ADAM: They NEVER explain why they didn’t just stay together

MARCHAE: they can’t not be together. Although I probably assigned more of a narrative to the relationship than the show provided

ADAM: its possible because the creators did not. It seems like a pretty big plot device to really overlook

MARCHAE: I think we are supposed to assume that they were each others one who got away yet never got away because they are all still very much good friends?

K: We shouldn’t have to assume!

ADAM: Also, if he writes these critical acclaimed books why is he so sad?

MARCHAE: CAUSE WRITING IS SAD

You know this

I know this!

ADAM: i write and I’m never sad

K: Wait what

MARCHAE: LOL

I think it’s been awhile since his last well received publication. he’s in a bit of a dry spell is how I read it…

(I feel like you’re making me question what I liked about this show?!?!?!)

(Suddenly I’m like wait a minute?)

ADAM: isn’t that the point?

I took it that he is coming off of another critically acclaimed novel that no one is buying because print is dead, and he’s pissed because he wants Harry Potter money

MARCHAE: I totally didn’t get that at all! I thought he didn’t want to be like that at all... he’s into Literature and Max knows that that’s where the money is and Max’s reputation is on the line as well. I think that Ethan would be happy writing his broody novels featuring a teen

ADAM: Ok I would say that it is Max pulling the strings on that

If I had several books that many critics loved I would be happy because I know that it will live on through the ages and be taught in freshmen lit classes

K: I grant this given the additional condition that Ethan is obviously not hurting for money, whether it’s because of his own sales or because of Lisa’s career. But if I had only critical acclaim and had trouble supporting myself I would not be happy

It goes back to my argument of these are not interesting people

Just because they’re dicks does not make them interesting

K: EXACTLY. It’s not good enough in prestige drama, and it’s definitely not good enough in a comedy that wants to be feel-good at least some of the time.

MARCHAE: I think he had two... and when you have some fame you always want more

THEY ARE INTERESTING. don’t you want to know the answers to all of the questions you’ve posed? Why did Sam and Ethan just not stay together?

K: The show should have answered all these questions by the end of the season, because they’re mostly not plot mysteries, they’re essential to character motivation.

ADAM: I don’t think it will get a second season

MARCHAE: What happens with Felix and Max?

IT BETTER!!!! I legitimately thought it was hilarious

it reminded me of Melvin Goes to Dinner

ADAM: I haven’t seen Melvin Goes to Dinner so I cannot relate

MARCHAE: Watch it..it’s a great little indie flick

ADAM: I will

MARCHAE: So what did you like about it

ADAM: Can I say one more thing about the non interesting part then I will say what I liked about it.

MARCHAE: go for it

ADAM: These are white collar people, living in upper crust urban areas, with country houses worrying about how they can keep their upper crust life when they are the ones who put themselves in this situation

MARCHAE: and it’s all falling apart (also Ethan and Sam Lisa are living on Marianne’s couch)

ADAM: meh. I will say this:

MARCHAE: MEH! ADAM come on!!!

ADAM: Even though I had my thoughts on Lisa she is the most interesting person on that show

K: YES

MARCHAE: BOOM!!!

I like Sam too. I think she’s the most complicated character

ADAM: Well and Felix because Billy Eichner plays a great straight man

She’s the most real

Billy Eichner does a great straight man which is different from his normal routine.

Nat Faxon has the best one liners. But I think that is Nat Faxon and not the writers

K: Everyone should watch the short-lived Ben and Kate, also starring a pre-50 Shades Dakota Johnson. But I think Marianne had the best one-liners.

Because Nat Faxon is actually a talented writer

K: With director Alexander Payne and fellow comedy actor Jim Rash, Faxon won a Best Adapted Screenplay Oscar for The Descendants.

That’s all I somewhat enjoyed, but that’s not enough when the show clearly hinges on Ethan and Sam.

MARCHAE: WOW!

I thought that Sam was great. I liked not knowing what the heck had happened at some points... think about it

when we meet people we only know what we know about them from that moment forward - anything else is their retelling of it - so it was nice to not know and try to figure it out

ADAM: Not knowing what?

What are we not knowing?

MARCHAE: I think Sam’s psychology as well as the how and why she and Ethan stayed together

ADAM: She has no problem fucking around and screwing over Lisa when she knows Ethan and Lisa are trying to conceive

MARCHAE: No that doesn’t make her likable but it does make her complicated

ADAM: Plus she would rather cheat on her husband, who all accounts loves and adores her, he threw her that amazing birthday party, than have Ethan say something and ruin her life

MARCHAE: (btw I think what she did was WRONG on so many levels and I wanted to fight her...she was selfish and needed to be punched and I was sad Lisa never did it)

ADAM: She would just rather ruin everyone else’s life

MARCHAE: I think her husband loves the idea of her and her family but she is selfish that makes her complicated

ADAM: She’s not complicated

She’s spoiled

MARCHAE: But I think she might be there has to be something going on that makes a person say hey I know I make bad choices when I am with person X 

and engage in illicit behavior but I am going to keep doing it

I found myself the whole show trying to figure her out

K: I don’t think this is to the show’s credit, though, I think it’s evidence that the show fails to flesh her out or make her internally coherent.

ADAM: I just kept yelling at her

She deserves NOTHING!

MARCHAE: Oh my god! But that’s what I mean we don’t know how she got there

ADAM: Yes we do

She couldn’t/wouldn’t be with Ethan so she married a rich guy, but still realized that she wanted Ethan and would sleep with him every time she visited.

MARCHAE: LOLOL

ADAM: Then instead of breaking things off when Ethan moved to NY she kept at it

MARCHAE: But we don’t know WHY she couldn’t or wouldn’t, which is the FUN of the character but tried to get help

ADAM: But she does not want her privileged life to go away and still wants to fuck around

MARCHAE: but like I said they are magnetic for each other

she doesn’t want to lose her kids

K: But Sam just keeps saying this, and we don’t ever see her interact with her kids in a meaningful way -- even in the Harvard episode, which would’ve been great for that -- or see how incredible the life is that she would lose. It’s the opposite of Show Don’t Tell! But also, if they actually showed her incredible life, she’d be even harder to empathize with.

ADAM: I don’t care for the why on that deep of a level

MARCHAE: she’d still be very much privileged

and I think that’s kind of the cool thing,  cool being relative,  is that it is going to implode on them. And it’s going to be epic when it does. And we will watch and laugh

ADAM: Doubtful because I don’t think it will get renewed

MARCHAE: SMH

ADAM: https://www.rottentomatoes.com/tv/friends_from_college/s01/

http://www.refinery29.com/2017/07/163100/friends-from-college-ethan-sam-cheating-infidelity-

MARCHAE: AUDIENCE SCORE 55%!!!

ADAM: That’s an F

MARCHAE: see that’s the problem - don’t base your opinion on the critics

that’s over half and there are a lot of things that win with just over half

ADAM: I’m not

MARCHAE: LOTS

ADAM: I watched it

MARCHAE: *sighs*  look I am onboard to stick around next season and I feel like in that season they will explore some of the why’s that we need in order to feel more “complete” if you will

K: THEY SHOULD TELL A COMPLETE STORY IN ONE SEASON

ADAM: I’ll watch it see the train wreck that it will be. IF they bring it back

MARCHAE: They WILL bring it back and you and I will be right back here AGAIN.

Anything else you want to mention about how much you LOVED the show?

ADAM: If you want, I can include all the reviews that agree with me that hate it

Ok you asked what I liked. What didn’t you like?

MARCHAE: that would be hilarious. Do it

Well I thought it was hilarious for one thing. just the sheer level of immaturity

I also appreciated seeing folks questioning their lives at this age

ADAM: I think that’s a played out trope

MARCHAE: in theory they are “supposed to” have it all together and they don’t

I think we see it in movies like Sisters or what’s the one with the guys

the man gets a face tat 

K: The Hangover? 2, maybe?

but I don’t think we see it with a group of people just trying to be somewhat functional and live their lives

Sam Lisa and Ethan are for all practical purposes homeless

we don’t know why they have enough money for IVF but can’t buy a house but who cares

K: ME

they are a hot mess

and i think that’s what I appreciated is that it was a hot mess

and your clothes can look nice

and your job be great and you are still at the end of the day unhappy and wanting more

and you are fumbling to figure out how to get to that point

and that you do it at 20, 30, 40 and they’ll still be at it at 50 or 60

that no one is actualized enough to be transparent enough to say: YOU MAKE ME UNHAPPY. but we fall into this routine of doing things because we are supposed to...they are supposed to be friends

supposed to marry the guy with all the money

supposed to have kids

and it’s all crumbling because they are ultimately toxic for one another

that’s fun to watch!

K: This is a very eloquent case for the show in theory, but I just don’t see it in practice. I think you’re doing a lot of the heavy lifting for the show. I’m glad it works for you, but I don’t think that’s how madcap ensemble comedies are supposed to function.

ADAM: This whole I’m turning 40 mid life crisis thing does not entertain me.

Especially when you have these well off people. It’s like the Breakfast Club. I hate that movie

A bunch of whiny teens with no real problems, other than Bender.

MARCHAE: but those are kids.  watching adults still fumble isn’t terrible to me especially those who are doing the most

(Also i thought it was HILARIOUS)

ADAM: Wait did you think it was hilarious?

MARCHAE: The whole thing!

I thought it was witty. There were literally points where I laughed out loud

The vineyard

The brainstorm at Max and Felix’s

The throwing of the chair though the pharmacy

ADAM: That is the directors asking Ethan to do Key and Peele shit

MARCHAE: it’s funny though

K: I hated all of these things because they’re just free-standing slapstick sequences, and didn’t feel motivated by the story.

now to speak to some of the things you didn’t like

I would have liked a bit more drama

(but I prefer drama to comedy 7 out of 7 days of the week...)

I also wanted more backstory somehow about WHY these people are still friends

so I don’t think it was perfect

but it was easily one of the better things I’ve watch for a comedy in a while

barring like Insecure

ADAM: That seems like a pretty big concern

MARCHAE: I can usually forgive it if the characters are interesting...WHICH THEY WERE

and I think we will be explained more of that in SEASON 2!

ADAM: I don’t have faith in that

MARCHAE: 😟

Do you have anything else you want to add about this show that you ...er... love so much 😊  

(Also I swear if it gets a season 2 we. will. react.)

K: I actually will not be surprised if it gets a second season, assuming the cast is in. It doesn’t seem cheap to shoot but it’s also relatively limited in its locations.

ADAM: I swear to react IF it gets a second season

MARCHAE: YES!!!

ADAM: I don’t think I have really anything else to say about these boring people

K: And you guys never even touched on Marianne, Jae Suh Park’s character. Maybe because she’s barely a character. Park gave killer readings to her one-liners (“Has it ever worked?” “Not to my knowledge.”), and I personally would love to see her in more things. But every time it seemed like she might have an actual story, it fizzled out pretty much immediately. Plus a lot of her New Agey GOOP bullshit seems like it should’ve come from an insufferable white lady, not the show’s only Asian character.

MARCHAE: had to get one last dig in didn’t ya? 

Well I say this has been a joy!!!

ADAM: It really has

Maybe next time we can react to something we agree on...

Like Die Hard

MARCHAE: YESSSSS!!!!!!

Let’s plan for this!

ADAM: Whenever wherever

Kris was agitating for a Marchae-Adam Die Hard reaction even before Friends from College came up, and would endorse an ongoing Marchae and Adam React to the 80s series. Expect to see more from Adam in the not-too-distant future! And we have yet another excellent Guest Reactor on deck, so you might want to brush up on your X-Men cartoons...

KRIS: Four needle drops an episode

is a lot

I’m also not sure the voiceover is really doing enough to justify itself?

MARCHAE: That's often my critique is how are these people doctors 

KRIS: I feel like you can have all those needle drops OR you can have heavy-handed VO but both is too much

Do we need to define needle drop for our readers, you think?

MARCHAE: Perhaps I was looking for a good link

That explains to put here but can't find one 

KRIS: So a needle drop is when a show plays non-diegetic (usually) pop music that they have to license, as opposed to an instrumental score composed for the show

And diegetic means sound that comes from the action that’s happening onscreen, or off-screen but still in the world of the scene/story--dialogue, sounds from the environment, anything that the characters are hearing too.

And it’s not an unusual thing at all

But I feel like Grey’s does SO MANY songs

And I’m vaguely aware that a fair number of singer-songwriter type artists were first “discovered” by a lot of fans through Grey’s, like maybe Ingrid Michaelson

MARCHAE: They do and they even have an album, I think there have even been interviews with Shonda Rhimes (SR) 

She says she wanted music to be just as much a character as the people 

Which I find interesting thematically 

KRIS: I get that theoretically, but it’s one of those things that’s the hard opposite of Show, Don’t Tell

when it’s lyrics

And especially for a show with bookend voiceover to tell you exactly What An Episode Is About, it’s just... it’s a lot

MIRI: I CANNOT WAIT for Kris to get to the musical episode, which is both amazing and so on the nose it hurts at multiple points.

MARCHAE: That's so interesting considering your like of shows like CEG which is quite musical 

KRIS: I actually do like voiceover when it’s used well throughout a thing (thinking Burn Notice, or Dead Like Me)

MARCHAE: Did you watch sex and the city 

KRIS: But in Crazy Ex the music is dialogue, it’s written by the writers and it’s spoken by the characters, it’s not a third party thing

I’ve seen a little

I guess I’m also just curious about the choice only to use voiceover at the beginning and end

although I think maybe it was there throughout the pilot episode

MARCHAE: Yeah I was about to say there may have been a few where it's through out

KRIS: In the pilot there was this conceit that at least some of the VO was addressed to Meredith’s mom

But other times (most times?) Meredith is clearly addressing the viewer

MARCHAE: I think it's to keep reminding us that this is Merediths world 

KRIS: Meredith is interesting

Which I realize is super vague

MARCHAE: That's my theory or has been at least since the beginning 

KRIS: But I’m having trouble landing on really clear descriptors for her

I like her

I think Ellen Pompeo is good

MARCHAE: I have a few but I'll wait 

KRIS: But she’s harder for me to pin down than Izzy or Cristina or George

MARCHAE: Ellen Pompeo is AMAZING

KRIS: And I think maybe this is deliberate?

But again the VO would make that a strange choice

MARCHAE: I Honestly think she's supposed to be

KRIS: But I do sort of like the idea that she keeps a lot to herself

I think she’s a pretty good example of a lead who has to ground the more eccentric performances of the rest of the ensemble

MARCHAE: She does-ish it's weird I love and hate her simultaneously and that's what I love about her 

KRIS: At least in these earlier seasons

MARCHAE: I think she does also as the show progresses you're right on 

KRIS: Then again I did just watch the Pick Me Choose Me Love Me speech

Which is as demonstrative as anything the others do

But still there’s a restraint in how she generally presents herself to the rest of the world that I identify with

I guess what I’m having trouble figuring out with her is what her fundamental drive is

MIRI: I would argue that this is because Meredith’s fundamental drive is a quest to understand and accept herself, which is a tough main character to pull off and it works better in some stretches than others. But overall I am really pleased with Grey’s willingness to let her flounder and be wrong sometimes.

Also I would not have called Kris identifying with Mer but it makes SO MUCH SENSE.

MARCHAE: That is really eloquently stated 

She has a tremendous amount to prove 

And she has a tremendous amount of hurt and she is guarded because of those things - I think as the show progresses (I'm trying not to spoil too much for you) 

But we learn it's a lot more than mom and dad 

It's Webber and her own crap too 

Meredith's drive is summed up in that choose me, pick me statement 

And it gets the best of her often 

KRIS: (Of the few original characters still around in season 13 I’m most surprised Webber is still there)

MARCHAE: (Really!!!!! I'm surprised by Alex)

KRIS: I guess just because it seems like he would’ve retired

MARCHAE: Ha! 

I suppose that makes sense 

KRIS: Do you think Meredith is a little bit of a cipher at first because she’s supposed to be sort of an audience surrogate? Or is it just that she’s stuffing a lot down where no one can get to it yet?

I guess I could look at the bible to figure this out

MIRI: The show bible, not the Christian one. A show bible is a big ass document explaining the world of the show--a deep dive on who the characters are, the setting, the vibe, etc. It also usually contains some episode and season plots.

MARCHAE: I can send it to you (maybe I already did) 

KRIS: You did

MARCHAE: I think it could be a by of both to answer your question 

Bit*

I think we learn the most about her as the show progresses that justifies somemof the things I find most annoying about her 

However, she is kind of our guide into this world 

I read the Bible and it's a bit different than what's on screen not much 

I'm most impressed by how developed she is and and that SRs intention is that her characters (when she writes) have no end they are infinite in terms of story because they have to be (except in the case of scandal which had an end from the beginning)

KRIS: Sure, and that also makes sense for a setting that has continuing education built into the characters’ lives

MARCHAE: Which is kind of brilliant on her part 

KRIS: It was part of why I liked ER

MARCHAE: I know you said you liked Bailey but I was curious about why and also your thoughts on Christina Yang 

KRIS: Which was specifically at a teaching hospital

MARCHAE: (Did you ever watch St. Elsewere)

KRIS: no

Part of why I like Bailey is that in these earlier episodes when I haven’t really found my way into all of the central intern characters yet is just that she thoroughly has her shit together

MARCHAE: (Such an amazing show- set in the 80s) 

YESssss

KRIS: As someone who has never disagreed with a character yelling at George, I just appreciate that there’s a blunt authority figure with a really dry sense of humor

MARCHAE: (Oh Kris promise you'll keep watching!!!!!!!)

KRIS: And that she also has basically that same comportment toward the attendings

MARCHAE: Ummm excuse me!!!! George is awesome and it infuriates me he gets yelled at!

KRIS: I will, I think it’s one of those things that’ll be easy to return to between other shorter things

Oh man

I mean I don’t dislike George

If I’m being honest there’s more of George in me than I’d like

Which is on some level probably a reason I like when people take him to task

MIRI: Wait guys this is actually enormous progress for Kris to “not dislike” a character he thinks he partially embodies.

MARCHAE: He just so freaking kind that I feel like they poo on him because they can

MIRI: Just because he’s kind doesn’t mean he’s without flaws. Also he is not always kind! Which is good because no one is, but let’s not pretend he’s a saint.

KRIS: I have trouble with Designated Kind Characters though

MARCHAE: And that bothered me a tremendous amount as a person who rarely yells at people even when I'm mad 

Kris what is happening 

KRIS: Because those characters are also often very squishy

And I’m impatient

MARCHAE: So you weren't an Izz fan either?

Squishy 

?

KRIS: And I think you can have Very Kind characters who aren’t pushovers

Hmm

I like Izzie fine

K: I didn’t want to do much annotation here, but on this point I want to be clearer. Obviously George has stories and an arc about becoming a stronger, more assertive person. What bothers me not necessarily about George specifically, but about how Nice characters are often written, is a conflation of kindness with weakness or timidity, and this seems to me how we’re supposed to read George’s default setting, or at least his starting point. Not that kind characters should never be weak or timid! To address Marchae’s question a little further, I think there’s an interesting distinction between how Izzie’s kindness or “softness” makes her seem less of a doctor (to someone like Cristina) and how George’s seems to be more a reflection of his overall character.

MARCHAE: *insert Marchae DYING GIF*

MIRI: Marchae has what has been described as an “unhealthy attachment to Katherine Heigl”

KRIS: So okay, yes, if I had to pick an intern I most identify with it’s Cristina

There are just a lot of feelings flying all over the place

MARCHAE: I KNEW IT!!!!

KRIS: And Cristina has no time for that

And Cristina doesn’t like babies

MARCHAE: She is my favorite!!! 

(She does....ish)

These people are incredibly emotional which sometimes makes me uncomfortable so she is often the voice of reaso 

Reason*

KRIS: Right, me too

And I realize there’s some masculinity/patriarchy baggage here too that I’m always in the process of dealing with myself

But yeah, I feel like a lot of the characters are not just emotional but very NEEDY

Which brings me to Shepherd

MARCHAE: I will also give you that 

They are needy 

KRIS: That man is super needy, specifically in how he wants to be liked

MARCHAE: I often feel like they don't listen very well to one another 

KRIS: Oh for sure

Which is also often used effectively for laughs

Like in the episode I just watched, Izzie has just gotten home from her first date with Alex and Meredith has just dumped Derek

and they go into George’s room and are just having their own “Seriously?” monologues

MIRI: This kind of moment on Grey’s is usually done SO well and I really want to go watch some season 2 Grey’s right now and avoid all of my responsibilities, ok? Ok.

What did you think of Derek’s initial courtship of Meredith?

MARCHAE: I don't love it to be honest 

KRIS: Even setting aside the professional inappropriateness, which I think we can just grant a TV drama

I don’t either

MARCHAE: I couldn't understand why she was smitten with him to begin with to be honest

MIRI: It does work better for me once they’re established and have a weight of history to cite re: their mutual obsession and problems. I think that’s the dynamic SR was always interested in for them.

It reminded me of a more 

Or I guess less childish Carrie and Big relationship 

KRIS: I didn’t find the Can’t Take No for an Answer thing charming, and I feel like the show really wants us to find him Needy-BUT-Charming

MARCHAE: I don't find him likable in later seasons 

KRIS: I’ll grant that the performance is less grating than the equivalent character in a lot of rom-coms

Patrick Dempsey does Quiet Charm and Quiet Intensity really well

oh interesting

MARCHAE: He forgets Merediths needs often 

KRIS: I’ll keep that in mind

In the code black/bomb squad two-parter, that runner where he keeps nagging Burke about why they can’t use first names for each other eventually pays off, but in the first couple scenes of it I was like “Ugh, classic Derek”

MARCHAE: LOL

KRIS: I actually really like Burke, most of the time

MIRI: Ugh, you would

MARCHAE: Derek, I will say this, has a long stretch where I don't mind him 

Burke I forget about him sometimes 

I like him as he relates to Christina 

KRIS: Isaiah Washington was written out for unpleasant interpersonal reasons, right?

MARCHAE: Yes he was! 

He and yang have an interesting dynamic and she owes her success (in small- very small-part) to him 

But he also softens her a bit but not in an icky way

MIRI: Um I would say some of it is very icky, when he is steam rolling over what she actually wants because he’s too busy seeing the version of her he wants. I’m glad for her to have the chance to grow personally, but not for her to be forced to do so in any particular direction.

In a way I think that gives her a bit more depth 

KRIS: I really liked the B-story where they tried to go on a date and it was just super awkward until someone else at the restaurant collapsed

MARCHAE: Because it's them LOL

KRIS: What I like about Burke is that his vibe is what I guess we would stereotypically call “Zen”

I always like the Zen guy

And one of the things I generally really like about the show is how it portrays teaching and mentorship

MARCHAE: I never thought about that really until you just said it 

Hmmmm 

It is kind of interesting 

I always appreciate the friendship aspect- I think that's what I note 

Like how much these people love each other so so much

And would do anything

MIRI: Any time they dance it out is an amazing time

But that teacher /mentor relationship is also a really neat dynamic 

Thanks 

KRIS: I mean the teaching is often couched in very technical things (“Why do we _____, Dr. ____?”), partly for audience benefit, but they also use those moments to show how that bonding happens

MARCHAE: Yes!! 

KRIS: And I think Burke’s personality lends itself particularly well to those beats, but I like it with everyone

It’s when they show that they can put aside all their relationship stuff and be professionals, and I think that’s really important for a show like this

MARCHAE: YES! Again while you don't love the music I don't love how unprofessional they are sometimes 

KRIS: Like in front of patients, or just how they fight a lot?

MARCHAE: The patients, each other, all of it 

Discussing other patients with patients 

I'm like REALLY GET IT TOGETHER -FICTIONAL LIVES ARE COUNTING ON YOU 

it's my biggest critique

MIRI: Marchae really does not approve of her fictional hero people being people--see our Captain America: Civil War reactions.

Though I guess I would be watching some other show if it was all about being professional and not the bonus stuff 

KRIS: Yeah, I guess I just assume a certain amount of Hot Mess in almost any TV, but especially network

(I guess NCIS is a show with less of that, I don’t really know it)

MARCHAE: Criminal minds too 

Any cbs show really

MIRI: Hard disagree--those people are all Hot Messes. Gibbs does nothing but Emote Grumpily and have discolored flashbacks of his dead wife and daughter, and the whole Criminal Minds team is full of emotions and PTSD.

KRIS: I guess most crime procedurals will tend to be more [self-]serious

But ER definitely had lots of friendship and romance stuff

Oh, there is one little thing where I compare Grey’s unfavorably to ER

And it’s that even though there are nurses we see fairly often, no one ever addresses nurses by name

And look, I STILL remember the names of some of those early ER nurses

Haleh

Chuny

Malik

Lydia

MARCHAE: Now that is impressive 

Derek dates one nurse 

KRIS: Olivia got to be a person for a bit because of the syphillis thing

But just like, give them names

MIRI: Bokhee and Daniel Sunjata have names. I’m not sure about anyone else, and Daniel Sunjata isn’t for a few seasons.

MARCHAE: Yeah 

Ha! 

You could start a campaign 

Lolol

KRIS: I feel like it’s also a thing that could be used to show character

Cristina and Burke might not bother to learn names

But Meredith would

MARCHAE: So would Izzie and George 

KRIS: George and Izzie definitely would

MARCHAE: Alex not so much 

KRIS: Derek would

Yeah not Alex, unless he was trying to hook up with them

MARCHAE: Derek might I think unless he's flustered 

KRIS: Webber would have at least absorbed everyone’s names through osmosis at this point

MARCHAE: HAHAHAHAHAHHAAH

LOL

KRIS: Okay I can end this rant

MARCHAE: That is hilarious 

So were you completely lost with the finale you watched 

KRIS: Not as much as I was worried I’d be

But for sure the character turnover was like, oh, maybe I should’ve just jumped right into this season

MARCHAE: Yeah she kills or lets go of lots of people (it's usually where I have to take a break out of frustration with the show) 

KRIS: I mean I totally get it, it’s a long time to be on the air

MARCHAE: I don't they should do this for the rest of their lives 

Long live #teamgeoizzie

MIRI: ANY PORTMANTEAU THAT INCLUDES “JIZZ” IS NOT OK, MARCHAE. WE’VE HAD THIS CONVERSATION

KRIS: Marchae

MARCHAE: *sorry*

MIRI: SHE’S NOT SORRY. SHE’S LYING, READERS.

KRIS: You know Miri will have to annotate that

MARCHAE: I know but I feel like since we're here and it came up-she'll be fine 

KRIS: Do you know if those four leads who are still around have done much other high profile stuff while it’s been on the air?

Even Noah Wyle was in and out of ER for the last few seasons

MARCHAE: Ummmm hmmm I know that Owen was involved in an indie film 

But he's the only one I know of 

KRIS: But like Meredith, Alex, Bailey, and Webber

MARCHAE: I forget he came later my bad 

KRIS: Oh wow, looking at Ellen Pompeo’s IMDB page, not a lot at all besides Grey’s post-2005

MARCHAE: No I just check Chandra Wilson because I thought she'd done broadway 

But nope

KRIS: Pompeo’s in a Taylor Swift video and she did a little bit of voice work for a cartoon

and that’s it

I wonder what that’s like

MARCHAE: Oh yeah she was in bad blood for six seconds 

KRIS: You become an actor to be different people and then you end up just being this one other person

MARCHAE: You know Sandra Oh said she went to therapy when she decided to leave 

KRIS: I believe it

MARCHAE: I have thought about that too 

It becomes legitimately a different part of you I'd suspect 

Because it's been forever for some of these people

KRIS: Yeah. I wonder if it’s just too exhausting to like go do a feature or something in between seasons when you’re the lead on a 22-24 episode show

MARCHAE: That does seem like a lot 

KRIS: Although I would also believe if Ellen Pompeo has trouble getting cast just being a woman over 40

MARCHAE: Which is mind boggling - because she's dynamic 

KRIS: She is great, but again it’s not a very showy part

Most of the time

(I mean I don’t want to speculate, I obviously don’t know her life)

MARCHAE: Yeah 

So you mentioned that your instructor had some things about the finale 

KRIS: Yes

MARCHAE: I'm curious what they were 

(By things I mean opinions) 

KRIS: She said that the thing the episode is supposed to be about doesn’t really get the act breaks

And that the story that does get the act breaks isn’t really substantial enough to justify it

The most obvious candidate for what the episode is About is Meredith’s VO thing about your world “exploding”

But Stephanie also has a little speech about clenching your fist through necessary pain that seems like it could be a thematic statement

I agree with her that most of the act breaks are not very strong

There’s not much real suspense in whether Stephanie and Erin are going to get through the fire or whatever

And most of those beats just come back right where we left off, and the beat gets resolved without any twist or new information

MARCHAE: I could see that 

KRIS: Just, yep, Stephanie made it into the stairwell

Yep, Stephanie got her keycard

MARCHAE: I think my notes even say this isn't their strongest finale 

KRIS: Not knowing most of these new characters, it seems like it would have been stronger for Nathan and Owen to get the act breaks?

MARCHAE: I thought there was tension because she's notorious for killing people in the end - so I didn't know if she was going to die 

KRIS: But I’m not sure what those would have been either, because they’re mostly just reacting to information they can’t do much with

I thought it was possible Erin would die on the roof

But not before

MARCHAE: But she couldn't die At all because she was keeping Stephanie alive 

And Stephanie had to have a reason to live thus leave 

So ultimately I can agree with your teacher on all accounts my note says the episode seems weird 

I think you may have articulated what I couldn't put my finger on 

KRIS: Yeah, and I do think that from what I’ve seen Grey’s is usually really good about tying its storylines together with the theme of the episode

MARCHAE: (I also thought the dialogue was odd - stating something we'd already seen) 

KRIS: Heavy-handed but effective

And here there was no real emotional link between the fire story and the Megan story

K: Now that my class has met I do want to clarify what Writing Teacher meant. Writing Teacher is usually a big proponent of Grey’s; along with The West Wing and Friends it’s one of her most frequent touchstones for story structure and theme, and how those things work best when they’re in concert. She talks about having a “tree” when you write anything, the thematic and emotional core that can and must stay intact no matter what else you change in the course of writing and rewriting. And the tree here was, or should have been, that story about Megan and how her homecoming affects the relationships of Meredith, Owen, et al. To her guess, the problems of poor/no suspense were not the real problem, but symptoms of “draft drift” as the writers lost sight of the Megan tree and tried to manufacture artificial drama out of a Finale! gimmick that was doomed to fail precisely because they didn’t relate it to the theme they started with. (Except literally, I guess, in terms of your world exploding.) 

MARCHAE: I may have to watch the episode before to see what was happening 

KRIS: And whatever was going on with Jackson trying to be a hero

MARCHAE: I thought it was a call back to an episode before he saved a kid from a bus and scared Kepp to death 

(Also the perpetual beeping almost made me shut the episode off)

(Complete aside) 

KRIS: This isn’t totally related but it’s a great piece about writing suspense/action that everyone should read

By one of my favorite showrunners

The gist of it is that you need to have multiple live possibilities for how an action scene should end if it’s not going to just be taking up time

“Don't write action sequences. Write suspense sequences that require action to resolve. ... every action sequence has its own internal three act structure. Objective, complication, resolution. And not only that, but the complication needs to be something which forces a choice on the character, not just a complication in physical circumstances.”

And this was generally not the case in those Stephanie scenes

MARCHAE: Ahhhhh 

So my argument for her is that we just needed an event/thing to get her off 

KRIS: You could sort of see how it could’ve been, with the stuff you said about Erin keeping her alive

MARCHAE: The show and make her realize she needs to be away from the hospital 

KRIS: But it didn’t feel like the emphasis

What’s her story?

MARCHAE: Stephanie? She comes as an intern in season 9

Her group loses several interns by way of death 

KRIS: Geez

MARCHAE: She and Avery were kind of a thing 

I never thought it was as serious as she did 

KRIS: HA

MARCHAE: But he breaks up with her after at Kepps wedding 

When He decides hey I want Kepp 

Embarrassing her and making her feel like an idiot 

She's not, in my opinion, liked much by all of her peers at first but they end up getting to be better friends 

I stopped there because I'm in the middle of that season 

(And yang leaves and I'm not ready for that nonsense) 

I like her but from 9-11 I don't feel like she's terribly well developed and the relationship with Avery isn't either 

KRIS: It seems like the cast also just got a lot bigger

It didn’t seem like all the regulars were even in this

MARCHAE: They revolve really we lose interns and doctors go 

KRIS: But also it felt like there were characters currently there and in the credits who weren’t part of the story. I think Alex is only in that one scene where Meredith tells him to help look for Erin?

MARCHAE: I think in this episode you saw most everyone except a few

Yeah jo also wasn't there 

She's in Stephanie's class

KRIS: And Jo is one of the few people whose (actor) names I recognized so I was weirdly disappointed

MARCHAE: I need to watch the episode before the finale I bet they were in that one

KRIS: I do like Kevin McKidd; Rome on HBO was great

I don’t think I have any other season 1-2 notes, but I can take questions

Man we didn’t even cover Ellis, but I feel like there’s more stuff Meredith is about to learn in season 2

MARCHAE: So much 

And Merediths half sister and her other half sister

KRIS: Right, Miri wants to do one of these after I meet Lexie

MARCHAE: YES!!!!

MIRI: For the first few episodes of Supergirl I called Alex ALexie because I couldn’t let go of my Chyler Leigh associations, despite how different the roles are. And I’m excited for Kris to see those differences!  But also come on--both are the sister of the blonde lead/title character, both named some variant on Alexandra/ria. It’s a lot.

KRIS: Oh I do like Joe the bartender and Joe’s the bar

MARCHAE: Oh kris 

KRIS: But I feel like they probably should’ve introduced Joe before the episode where he was a patient

MARCHAE: You get to know him I think 

KRIS: You know, before watching for this reaction I’d probably seen at least as much of Private Practice as I had of Grey’s

Which is to say five or six episodes

Private Practice had more actors I already recognized

MARCHAE: Oh that's another good one I didn't finish it though

MIRI: I did finish it, because my loyalty to Addison Montgomery runs DEEP

KRIS: Like, almost everyone, really

Tim Daly voiced Superman in the 90s animated series

MARCHAE: I LOVE HIMMMMM 

he's on madam secretary 

It's good 

KRIS: Amy Brenneman, obviously

MARCHAE: I agree watch more and I want another reaction!!! Stat<---see what I did there 

Yeah taye diggs I think is also in that show 

KRIS: Yeah, I knew him from something

Oh I guess that’s it actually

Okay so like half the cast

OK I’ll keep watching Grey’s

And I’ll pick up Private Practice when Addison gets spun off

MARCHAE: YES

YESsssss

I wanna react to that with you also! 

KRIS: I do like Kate Walsh

I feel like that’s actually not a super popular opinion but I’m not sure

MARCHAE: She just had an article out a couple of days ago about watching herself on tv

I like her a lot 

KRIS: I don’t have much interest in 13 Reasons Why but I know she’s in that

MIRI: She is???

I thought the pilot of Bad Judge was fun but didn’t see more of it

MIRI: I loved it SO much

MARCHAE: I haven't seen 13 reason the book was traumatic but I'm confident she's stunning in it 

So let's say we check back in on august for reaction part two!!!! 

KRIS: We’ll see

Maybe if I’ve gotten to season 4 we bring the others into this

MARCHAE: I was just throwing it out there

🤓🤓

KRIS: But if we do a Grey’s check-in we also need to do either a Crazy Ex check-in with you or an Orphan Black check-in with Lemon

And OBVIOUSLY our Sweet/Vicious check-in

MARCHAE: That's very fair! 

I also started the Tina Fey show 

KRIS: I’m not even going to identify it here, that deserves an annotation

MIRI: Does she mean 30 Rock??

K: She 1000 percent means 30 Rock

I feel like we have a lot that’s sort of vaguely on the docket but not a lot of For Sure We’re Going to Talk About This Next

Lemon mentioned something yesterday or the day before

Oh, Hello--2 man Broadway show now on Netflix

Miss Sloane, The Leftovers, possibly Cable Girls

...

Spider-Man

MIRI: YES!!!

MARCHAE: I can't react to spider man so I'll leave you and Miri for that 

And atomic blonde

MIRI: YES!!!!! Y’all, the first trailer for Atomic Blonde is still my favorite movie of the year. I’ve watched it 16 times. One of those times was right now, because I had to pull it up to do the link and then obviously I couldn’t not watch it. I would do a whole reaction on just that first trailer.

KRIS: YES

Okay dear readers

I’m personally a big fan of The AV Club and Vulture and Vox Culture

but if those aren’t your thing

we hope you’ll Pick Us, Choose Us, Love Us for your pop culture reaction needs

(too much?)

(I’ll show myself out)

MARCHAE: YESssssss

MIRI: Amazing

LIZ: and then they were singing defying gravity in the car and i was like

KRIS: THERE’S A LEVERAGE WRITER

MIRI: You were definitely upset

KRIS: THE EMOTIONAL CLIMAX IS A WICKED SINGALONG

MIRI: THERE IS???

LIZ: yeah

like

MIRI: WHo?

KRIS: BRANDON MYCHAL SMITH FROM YOU’RE THE WORST

M Scott Veach

MIRI: Cool!

LIZ: oh end of sentence about defying gravity.. i felt like the show understood my soul

MIRI: Moment of appreciation for Brandon Mychal Smith playing SUCH a different type of comedy equally well

LIZ: ALSO.. it takes a certain type of weird ass show for all 4 of us to be VERY on board.. and I also like that about it

KRIS: He’s one of the only men who can say the word “bitch” and not make me a little uncomfortable

MIRI: True!

hahahahaha

LIZ: Is that Harris?

MIRI: Yes!

KRIS: Yeah

LIZ: I LOVE HIM

MIRI: Yay!

KRIS: One of the reasons I really wanted us to do 3 episodes was so you could see the start of his thing with Fiona

LIZ: What do you think about that?

MIRI: Is that the sorority girl?

KRIS: I like it!

Lemon as the one of us with the most first-hand sorority expertise what’s your general sense of the Zeta dynamic?

LIZ: I identify with the sorority characters who are actually smarter and much more .. defined as human beings than most would give them credit for or that they initially come off as

KRIS: (Harris gets crystallized so instantly with the line “I’m not saying I have sexual dreams about Ruth Bader Ginsberg... but I’m also not saying I don’t”)

LIZ: I mean.. I had several (male) friends and family members say to me when I joined my very small.. one of a kind local sorority.. “oh so you’re a sorostitute?”

MIRI: SUCH A LINE

LIZ: Yes i have a note about the RBG line

MIRI: UM that’s horrible and fuck them

LIZ: right, but that kind of mentality and characterization of college aged women who are friends with other women in the form of a sorority is so widespread

MIRI: The pilot honestly does SO much to characterize Jules, Ophelia, and Harris so quickly

KRIS: I do really like how they initially lean into the less generous expectations about sororities and then flesh out I think all of those characters in great ways

Mackenzie was a sleeper favorite for me

(the anxious redhead safety chair)

LIZ: this gives them facets.. like fuck what you thought about me and also.. I don’t have to not like to do my makeup or sometimes dress up for me to be a smart or valid female.

MIRI: I feel like Kennedy takes a little longer, but not in a bad way

Liz, you are amazing and I love you

LIZ: i don’t know many shows that give girls that kind of credit.. very legally blonde of this show..except Elle Woods was the exception there

MARCHAE: They have to save Kennedy (I say this not Having seen more than 4 epi)

KRIS: You will be pleased

MIRI: Definitely

LIZ: Visually, I am impressed with the shows set designs, makeup, and wardrobe

MARCHAE: I feel like they have to hold her close because of nick and Jules 

LIZ: hold who close?

oh kennedy

MARCHAE: (Also back to thumbs on the phone)

KRIS: I LOVE the world-building, especially on what I assume is a pretty small budget

MIRI: I do love her moment when Ophelia tells her she has a very calming presence and she’s just like “I know"

LIZ: yeah i am also worried about her

KRIS: Lemon talk about makeup

MIRI: Yeah!

LIZ: ITS EXPENSIVE

KRIS: (please)

LIZ: what else?

oh as far as this show is concerned

MIRI: yes, world building 

LIZ: Jules and Ophelia (yes to the names btw)

have such amazing looks and their hair is bouncy like they are comic book drawings, but their makeup isn’t like that (bc that would be fucking bizarre) and I love how the fresh rosy-cheeked and bright eyed look of Jules is enhanced with her makeup and Ophelia’s brows and eye makeup are dark and defined/ grungy at times, but she is also kind of sweet because they don’t cake her up or give her a heavy lip.. idk if that makes sense to anyone else

their eyes are so expressive as actresses

and then they’re important because of the ninja outfits

MIRI: That all makes sense to me and I would never have thought of it at all

KRIS: it is right on the edge of my comprehension

MIRI: Sidebar: SUPER excited for you to see more Orphan Black and discuss that makeup

LIZ: but I am pleased with the fine line between real world and cartoonish that the MUA on this show kind of stride beautifully to give them unique looks that foil one another and bring out their strengths and sometimes their faults

KRIS: Ophelia I think I understand best in this context

MARCHAE: YESS LIZ!!!

I do want to ask a question

LIZ: It is more subtle with Jules, because she is made to look more fresh, but I mean everyone on any show has lots of makeup on

ok done w makeup ranting/ observing

MIRI: What’s up, Marchae?

MARCHAE: *sorry liz...go on***

LIZ: oh no thats pretty much it

are you getting things in real time marchae? (with your computer)

MARCHAE: I wanted to chime in about wardrobe because it’s super similar to the way in which makeup is handled... and you definitely know who these people are and the kind of persons that this show is trying to share

MIRI: Ooh, please do!

LIZ: oh yes, the wardrobe feels almost theater like to me.. do you agree or am i wrong

MARCHAE: ( It was touch and go for a moment but me and my thumbs are finally #winning on the computer... I couldn’t take the tiny keyboard anymore)

LIZ: bless you for trying

MIRI: I never really notice Ophelia’s wardrobe that much, but the props they have for her are iconic and say so much

MARCHAE: I think it does... the show feels VERY comicbook-esq like I mentioned it reminds me very much in aesthetics to deadly class and there is another comic that focuses on a high school that I’m blanking on

LIZ: was this ever a graphic novel or comic book?

MARCHAE: but you get a lot in terms of wardrobe via colors that they use for these characters... Ophelia is almost always in darks, Jules in pinks and pastels

I quick checked and didn’t see it

KRIS: it was original to Jenn Kaytin Robinson

I mean she did a shit ton of research, and the producers watched The Hunting Ground and stuff

LIZ: nice..and yes I agree with the colors

MARCHAE: But these choices are interesting because they are almost opposite to the characters we meet in the show

LIZ: and the fact that Jules keeps her identity even as a vigilante with her pink backpack

MARCHAE: so Jules we meet as the original vigilante and she’s the one in the brightest colors ALWAYS in the show

LIZ: and then Ophelia has that car!

MARCHAE: that backpack is definitely our hint

MIRI: Because she’s trying SO hard to still be that girl

KRIS: Oh that’s so interesting. Jules is super dark and “damaged” and Ophelia’s ultimately a sweetheart.

MARCHAE: and Ophelia is always in darks

LIZ: right!?

MARCHAE: **taps nose at kris**

MIRI: I like that even when they put Jules in the Spitters are Quitters shirt, it’s light colored

MARCHAE: so its totally the opposite of what we see

in terms of how they are portrayed in their “normal life”

any who enough of my rant

LIZ: I find Ophelia to be much more innocent.. not because of being sexually assaulted, but because she is kind of playing catch up and barfs when she kills a guy and Jules obviously took this mission upon herself to become a kick ass fighter and to start doing something

MARCHAE: liz i absolutely agree

ophelia definitely the more innocent seeming of the two

KRIS: Ophelia’s so fucking great

MIRI: Yeah, Ophelia thinks of herself as So Hardcore but is basically a sweet 19 yr old with some abandonment issues

I love her

MARCHAE: and she tells you as much in her dialogue

LIZ: I love her!

MARCHAE: some is an understatement miri

KRIS: I loved the vomiting and I don’t even know why

MARCHAE: she has ALL the abandonment issues

LIZ: i loved that it was pink

MIRI: Because it’s pink!

KRIS: I guess the unexplained pink?

MARCHAE: the vomiting is AMAZINNNGNGGGGGGGGG

LIZ: yes

MIRI: It’s absurd and so totally the show

LIZ: hahahha

KRIS: wow we are ALL on a wavelength tonight

MIRI: But it is!

LIZ: like.. I don’t need to see chunky soup barf

i get it

MIRI: The show is 100% going to show you the puking

MARCHAE: i usually don’t want to see it at all period ever

but it works for the show

MIRI: But it’s also going to make it funny and stylized

MARCHAE: and that character as kind of a she seems hard core but is not!

OH OH

KRIS: LeBong James

MIRI: YES

MARCHAE: so my question and this was a thing that kind of made me curious

LEBONGGGGG

MIRI: She’s a nerd ❤️ 

LIZ: There is a lot of suspension of disbelief in this show.. not bc girls can’t fight injustices, but because of how they  should’ve gotten caught and how Ophelias mad hacker skills save the day alot

LEBONNNGGGGGGG

MIRI: I feel weird being the only one who hasn’t said LeBong

MARCHAE: (THEY MURDERED SOMEONE CLUMSILY AND CHICA BARFED ALL OVER THE SCENE!!!!DNA MUCH)

there it goes

LIZ: Also the male assailants aren’t even cookie cutter like on other shows or movies

MIRI: I KNOW BUT JUST GO WITH IT

KRIS: Without spoiling anything I’ll say they’re generally really good about chickens coming home to roost

Maybe not DNA specifically? But the show is serious about Consequences

MARCHAE: so question... what institution do they go to where there is an assult like every freaking second

LIZ: they are all different and some are even charming (most are) and they have different personalities and hobbies.. like Nate is acting like a really good boyfriend to Kennedy so if we didn’t know what he’s capable of, we’d forgive his jerk reaction to her missing his football thing bc of his super sweet apology

MIRI: Well, it’s Darlington University, right?

KRIS: Well A) that doesn’t actually strike me as unrealistic but B) I got the sense of a “backlog” of assaults -- they’re using that wall, which was started who knows how long ago

MIRI: So it’s at least big enough to have masters programs

KRIS: not responding to like the student weekly or something

MIRI: True

LIZ: i mean i know so many people in so many schools (large, small, medium and very small) who all have sexual assault stories

MARCHAE: thanks for the wall reminder

LIZ: i didn’t find the number to be at all shocking

KRIS: yeah

MARCHAE: I think maybe again its the dissonance of this being a drama/comedy that has me a bit jarred

LIZ: maybe the number of guys that were turned in or reported seems high, but SO FUCKING MANY are floating around in my mind right now

MARCHAE: i dealt with lots (more than i have ever wanted to) but not weekly by any stretch

that definitely doesn’t mean it wasn’t happening

MIRI: Well, just because the show aired every week doesn’t mean it’s only a week in universe

LIZ: right

thats true

MARCHAE: thanks gang

MIRI: And Kris is right--they definitely go into past exploits some

KRIS: That wall, man

MIRI: It is BRUTAL and so effective

MARCHAE: yeah the reminder of the wall definitely does it.... i literally was like

DAMN this is INSANE and darlington should be shut the hell down

KRIS: I texted Miri something like “I never do this but there’s a pure drama beat that made me 😭😭😭😭”

LIZ: I wish every college had a wall

KRIS: and it was definitely Ophelia handing Jules the Sharpie

MIRI: He did and I treasure that text

😭😭😭😭😭😭😭

LIZ: oh something that I meant to google.. could be such a coincidence

MARCHAE: UGHHHH

LIZ: at my college, in the same kind of font.. the party dorm/ suites were called “Reimert Hall” and they are like “see you at Leimert” spelled the same and then they show “Leimert Hall” and it is creepily spot on

KRIS: Huh

MIRI: Whoa 

LIZ: not related to the wall

separate

MARCHAE: we did have a question from one of our readers and I promised I would bring it up to react to

LIZ: lol.. it is student housing but.. idk weird to me but maybe not to anyone else

MIRI: Yes, I want to talk about that!!!

LIZ: go for it! I don’t know the question

MARCHAE: about student housing or the question from our loyal reader

i get confused sometimes

KRIS: our loyal reader

LIZ: I’m assuming she means from the reader

MIRI: The question

yes

MARCHAE: BWHA

sorry

LIZ: mine was just a point thrown out and doesn’t really leave much to comment on haha

MIRI: Share the question with us, Marchae

MARCHAE: OH MY GRIEF I  am typing then stop to read...

LIZ: I know.. Kris and Miri are too fast for me

MARCHAE: ok so the reader wants to know if we read Ophelia as bi

MIRI: Sorry!

KRIS: NO STOPPING the overlapping is half of our charm

MIRI: Omg Kris

LIZ: There was one thing that made me think that

MARCHAE: GO!

MIRI: Ok, I am deeply bi-ased (hahahahahah) so I want yawl to discuss it first

LIZ: hahaha

MARCHAE: STAP!

MIRI: 😉

MARCHAE: go lizzie

@miri you are my everything LOL

LIZ: Harris said something about her being with Jule (I’m having a brain fart and can’t remember if it is jules or rule..)

MARCHAE: her being with rules?

LIZ: and I think Ophelia was like “not like that” kind of blushing

jULE*

damnit

KRIS: For all of my striving toward wokeness I am generally still slow to pick up on, I guess, Sapphic vibes -- although being a social media-engaged Supergirl fan is training me better -- but I did also note that on my rewatch

LIZ: but it was a micro second kind of moment that made me think.. oh she dates girls too.. cool

so what do you think Kris

KRIS: This is pretty convincing to me:

http://wistfulwatcher.tumblr.com/post/154191025349/harris-has-most-definitely-seen-ofeefs-kissing-a

MIRI: Kris I offer my services if you ever need a consultant on this quest

LIZ: OHHH and PERSON yes thats smart

MARCHAE: AHHHHHHHHHHH

I didn’t even pick up on it!

MIRI: Ahhhhhhhh shit I didn’t even notice the person thing

MARCHAE: SWEET

i also think there is a lot of tension with Ophelia

MIRI: Ok, Reacting to Something officially rules Ophelia to be bi

Or pan, who knows

LIZ: I kind of also thought that was just a more interesting way of putting it..  like IS THERE A LIVE HUMAN JUST RIGHT THERE IN YOUR HOUSE?

MARCHAE: the writing and ACTING are smart like that

KRIS: And on my search for gifs to add to the post later, the scene in the cemetery -- “I think you’re amazing” -- seemed to be another touchstone

MARCHAE: yes!

MIRI: So when we got this question I was like “huh, are people seeing that?

Outside of shipping her and Jules?”

MARCHAE: but we also know that Ophelia doesn’t have friends

MIRI: But upon rewatch it’s pretty solidly set up

MARCHAE: so before the question i suspected that she was just kind of enjoying her new friendship with this person

LIZ: wait whats solidly set up

MARCHAE: she’s wanted that

LIZ: her being bi?

KRIS: yes

LIZ: just confirming

MARCHAE: then after the question we received not only did I pay more attention, but I think again there is definitely some tension

MIRI: I’m honestly so jaded from shows that like to dip their toe in the idea of something happening but will never go for it that I tend to only accept stated queerness

MARCHAE: and she might have a crush on jules!

MIRI: But it does feel very genuine and deliberate here

Which is lovely!

MARCHAE: agreed miri

LIZ: good!

K: consider it canon

KRIS: I think it was a writers room with only one straight man

LIZ: Im HERE FOR THAT

MARCHAE: That’s kind of awesome!

KRIS: (the past tense here kills me)

MIRI: I love it

UGhhhhhhhh I know

LIZ: wait

is it done?

forever

KRIS: I don’t think I’ve ever been so upset about a cancellation

LIZ: LAWD

MARCHAE: yup

LIZ: I CANT

KRIS: They’re shopping it to streaming sites

MIRI: Guys, sorry we’re making you fall in love with a cancelled show

LIZ: THIS FUCKING WEEK

MARCHAE: yeah i found out today

yeah

MIRI: OMG did we not tell you???

LIZ: *BREAK FOR EMOTIONAL BREAKDOWN*

MARCHAE: i was PISSED OFF

LIZ: NO

I DIDNT KNOW

MIRI: I’M SO SORRY!!!!!!!

MARCHAE: and like this is why I DON”T WATCH TV

LIZ: This is the devils week. why not this too!?

anyways

MARCHAE: LOLOL

LIZ: also.. good girls revolt was amazing (to me)

MIRI: I loved it!

MARCHAE: also can i just have my moment for the fact that this show also digs into the issue of racism

LIZ: why can’t bad bitches get a win? why

yes

MARCHAE: and handles it kind of nicely

KRIS: That scene was surprisingly upsetting

LIZ: super upsetting

KRIS: I love that it’s the cop we saw be nice to Jules

MIRI: Yes! Let’s talk about that froyo scene

It’s so well done

MARCHAE: reminded me of trayvon martin

MIRI: And the other cop recognizing that it’s wrong, but not stepping up enough to actually stop it

MARCHAE: i also love that is it harris?

LIZ: like he was being racially profiled.. but he also had the one good thing he was looking forward to smashed on the ground

MARCHAE: yup

LIZ: yeah just kind of being like “sorry, but this is kind of what we do, i won’t stop it”

MARCHAE: it is heartbreaking and realistic

KRIS: That younger cop also comes back

MIRI: I’m glad that they played it very seriously

LIZ: ooo

MARCHAE: I was glad that he didn’t want to be seen as only one kind of black when he fought back with the paper editor as well

KRIS: This show has a really deep bench of minor-ish supporting characters

MARCHAE: they better had!

KRIS: MM I think that’s episode 4

On a lighter note I also really appreciate the importance of froyo to the world-building of this college town

LIZ: yes I’m not familiar

MARCHAE: YES

MIRI: Froyo continues to matter

As does pizza

MARCHAE: and dairy queen soft serve

LIZ: In college, we would plan a whole trek to froyo (we got one a few min away my senior year)

MARCHAE: GURL

MIRI: We once drove to Waffle House at 4 am in the snow

In South Carolina

KRIS: From earlier than I remembered, too -- Ophelia running away from Barton and running into a guy carrying a cup -- “Tart?!”

MIRI: where they can’t handle snow

KRIS: YES the pizza place

MIRI: Huh? What is the cup thing?

KRIS: of froyo

LIZ: Food culture in college .. is something very important and lets think abouthtat

MIRI: OHHHH

KRIS: Ophelia has no patience for Basic things, clearly

MIRI: Also that running away scene is great

LIZ: and by think of that .. I mean.. remember fondly when 4th meals were a thing and breakfast at night reigned supreme.

MIRI: Ophelia has a lot of opinions and I have a lot of feelings about her

KRIS: (I love Jules’s “I like sunsets on Instagram”)

LIZ: ophelia is hilarious.. i love her comment “she’s literate”

KRIS: Ophelia’s ramen diet

MARCHAE: LOL

LIZ: and also that girl [Fiona] trying to be sexy and saying “there are no drapes” so seriously

MIRI: Yeah I definitely want to see that girl eat a vegetable

LIZ: and giving up and being  like “IM SHAVED” ahaha

KRIS: Lemon I laughed so loud at “She’s literate?” on my rewatch

MIRI: I love that girl!

MARCHAE: there are a ton of one liners

LIZ: yeah the popcorn for breakfast made even me feel like OH HONEY NO NUTRIENTS

KRIS: So real

MARCHAE: that’s usually my breakfast on sundays after i mop

LIZ: miri what are your many opinions about ophelia

MARCHAE: and i’m old

MIRI: WAIT

LIZ: my dogs eat better than I do so I get it

MIRI: Marchae eat real meals please I worry

LIZ: and you mop before you eat

MARCHAE: yes almost every sunday

MIRI: Ok back to my many opinions: as stated I LOVE HER

LIZ: i had a banana, fake chicken, vegan pasta and granola today.. that is kind of healthy

MIRI: I also really love her need to belong

MARCHAE: i eat popcorn, drink a pepsi and catch up on my shows

LIZ: her need to belong to who or what

KRIS: just in general

LIZ: I guess I am really new

MARCHAE: YES

KRIS: to have friends, to have a cause

MIRI: She’s obsessed with the idea that she’s this cool fuckup who doesn’t need people, but she needs people so MUCH

LIZ: I get that

MARCHAE: its evident from episode one almost immediately

LIZ: we all do! even when we aren’t good at.. people!

MIRI: She jumps head first into this insane vigilante thing

LIZ: MARCHAE

MIRI: and kicks it into a higher gear

LIZ: STOP DRINKING SODA

MARCHAE: i think it makes her so relatable too and you fall in love with her

LIZ: IT WILL KILL YOU

MARCHAE: (mostly only on SUNDAY AFTER MOPPING but WITH POPCORN)

LIZ: I know, she is the perfect.. not robin.. robin

MIRI: She hurts Harris so easily but would be devastated if she actually lost him

LIZ: yeah i love her apology scene to him

MARCHAE: but he loves her no matter what

MIRI: She thinks she’s beyond needing that sort of connection because she can’t have it with her mom

LIZ: just a girl standing in front of  a boy.. asking for her job back

KRIS: Yes her bad-friend-ness is great

MARCHAE: *snap snap snaps fingrs*

MIRI: But she’s wrong

KRIS: Dammit Ophelia you know I can’t resist Notting Hill

MIRI: and she needs people so badly

Also she’s just hilarious and brilliant and I love her and Harris’s friendship so much

LIZ: her mom was so rude to her on the phone it made me sad especially because Jules doesn’t have a mom.. and I know those were really briefly introduced to me, but I’m sure those are important issues

MIRI: OH YOU JUST WAIT

On the subject of friendship, there are a ton of examples of girls being very affirmational to each other that really interest me

LIZ: I also love that Harris is.. presumably straight and is not afraid to love RBG or Notting Hill

KRIS: I’m so jealous you’re experiencing this show for the first time

MIRI: Because sometimes they’re played for laughs

But not most of the time

and I love that

MARCHAE: YES!

MIRI: Like, the high girls just need to hug!

LIZ: I wanted to be in the back seat of their car screaming along to Defying Gravity

MIRI: And sometimes Kennedy is a bit ridiculous with her goddess stuff

MARCHAE: i love your love for defying gravity liz

MIRI: But for the most part it is 100% genuine

MARCHAE: Kennedy is the most

MIRI: And so what I do with my friends

LIZ: yeah kennedy suggesting that shit to ophelia was HILARIOUS

basically like “HAVE YOU EVER BEEN TO GOOP.COM?”

MIRI: kennedy is indeed the most

MARCHAE: I am so CURIOUS about what happens when Jules tells her

KRIS: That shot where I assume Fiona and Gabby are on a dolly when they enter Vinylton high on shrooms is perfect

MIRI: So I love that there’s drunk girl in the bathroom type compliments and Woke Freshman type compliments AND really genuine support for each other

KRIS: sorry I was just slow there

LIZ: i think that kennedy will eventually (i mean who knows since it is cancelled) be an ally and join the cause or at least be supportive in a protective way

MIRI: OH JUST WAIT

MARCHAE: if she does I may ink myself!!!

KRIS: I repeat, I am so jealous you’re experiencing this show for the first time

MIRI: It’s a very well plotted season and that is all I will say

MARCHAE: *hugs kris*

UGHHHH i’ll probably finish it this weekend

LIZ: hahaha kris I’m feeling like that repetition is to keep yourself from spoiling

KRIS: There is Jules-Kennedy closure, for sure

Yeah, so, we went really long, even for us. Find the rest of our Reaction here.

MARCHAE: he makes me happy and I will definitely watch an adam west marathon in a heartbeat!

MIRI: I love her so much

MARCHAE: Me too

Also, and then I will stop...

there were moments when she looked EXACTLY like Linda Lynda Carter

and I found myself getting teary

it was weird

ok someone else go

KRIS: I don’t think getting teary in any context for this movie sounds weird

MARCHAE: really?

MIRI: Yeah Casey teared up 2-3 times

MIRI: Our friend Casey (who will be a guest reactor in the nearish future!) snagged tickets to the world premiere and it was AWESOME

KRIS: I don’t think I’ve told any of you this, but as I told Allison Shoemaker, I’m the sort of person who tears up at really great action scenes

So basically the first time an Amazon backflipped off a horse

I was done for

MIRI: I love that about you. It makes sense

THAT MOMENT WAS AMAZING

MARCHAE: 😊

MIRI: Marchae, we were getting to see a female hero treated with all the reverence that is normally only given to male leads

MARCHAE: that makes me really really happy to read 😊 😊 and I’m not sure why

MIRI: You’ve waited 30 years to see that

It’s worth getting teary over

MARCHAE: Truth!

MIRI: Also the love story was sweet and genuine, so that’s enough to make some people cry in any context

I like that she got to be headstrong and make some not great choices too

KRIS: Not to get too far ahead of ourselves, but speaking of the love story I LOVED the way they doubled back to Steve’s goodbye

MIRI: It wasn’t like “Here is our Female Hero, isn’t she so Perfect? That’s what you want, right?”

MARCHAE: OH MY GOD

i was about to say that!!!!!!!

MIRI: Ughhhhhh Steve gives me emotions

KRIS: That really saved the climax from being Just Another Kinda Disappointing CGI Slugfest

MARCHAE: I was so worried she was going to get all romance-y on me

(remember folks I do like the fights)

MIRI: hahahaha right, secret action movie fan

MARCHAE: I wouldn’t have minded - i would have minded if she were all like I love you (insert lusty voice)

MIRI: I love that Wonder Woman could actually take a hit

KRIS: But also yes I really liked the way they played Diana’s innocence

MARCHAE: but she kicked some A$$$$$

YES!

it showed the duality of femininity

MIRI: While on the subject of badassness, can we discuss EVERYTHING THAT HAPPENED ON THEMYSCIRA???

MARCHAE: we can be tough but also love to love and want to see “babies!”

YASSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS

KRIS: Yes

MIRI: Yes! Her love of babies was amazing!

MARCHAE: SWOONNN!!! I want to go there

and live

MIRI: But yes, back to AMAZONS JUMPING OFF THINGS

THEY JUMP OFF SO MANY THINGS

KRIS: and Robin Wright punching a dude in the throat

MIRI: Robin Wright doing literally everything she does

And the shield jump thing!!!

MARCHAE: the stunts were so on point

MIRI: I loved how that came back

K: I totally did not realize that Steve was remembering what Antiope had done, that’s so damn cool

MARCHAE: ALL THE JUMPS

kids she literally punched into a wall and climbed up it!

MIRI: YES

MARCHAE: and was proud when she realized she had the strength to do it

(dana)

KRIS: Yeah that was really nicely done

MIRI: I kind of love that discovering her powers wasn’t a freakout to her

KRIS: Not a freakout, but “oh THIS is cool”

MARCHAE: yeah she kind of embraced it at every turn

MIRI: She was just like “Yes, I can do this thing! Excellent, I will do this thing now”

MARCHAE: but it was a call out to her aunt saying you can do this! you are stronger than this

which i think more women of all varieties need to hear more oftne

often*

MIRI: 100%

MARCHAE: Kris what were your favorite things

KRIS: The critical part of me did wonder why Diana didn’t seem to have more questions about her powers after the sparring incident with Antiope

MIRI: Ughhhhhh I’m listening to the soundtrack too now and I’m so inspired

KRIS: Well definitely Amazons jumping off, over, and through things

And also the way the camera never leered at Diana

(the way they saved the costume reveal for No Man’s Land was great)

(and could so easily have been just a silly cutesy teasing thing)

MARCHAE: KRIS PREACH

MIRI: YES

YES that reveal!!!

MARCHAE: ( i want to talk about the costume)

KRIS: I don’t mind saying (at least) one more time that the Amazon choreography is so cool it literally physically hurts

MIRI: Her going over the edge of the trench was glorious

KRIS: Yes I want to hear all of your thoughts about wardrobe later

MIRI: Kris, I love you

Circling back to your critique really quickly

Re: not questioning powers: the whole man appearing in the water thing happened pretty immediately after that, didn’t it? (Sorry it’s been over a week!)

KRIS: I think that’s right

MM?

MIRI: Then I buy that. She went off to be alone, and then a dude appeared and things happened pretty quickly after that. No time to think much

MARCHAE: YES!

Yes she just had to rely on what she already had within her and literally dove right in

KRIS: Yeah, it didn’t bother me again until well after I’d left the theater

MIRI: very literally!

KRIS: I guess there was a Little Mermaid homage there?

MARCHAE: I’ve never seen the little mermaid

KRIS: I don’t know The Little Mermaid well enough

MIRI: WHAT????

K: Was this it? This seems like it might be it.

MIRI: Didn’t occur to me, but looks like it, yeah

MARCHAE: *hunches shoulders*

MIRI: WHAAAAAAT?

I mean it’s fine but WHAT?

MARCHAE: Sorry... I didn’t do many cartoons as a kid...

yeah i was kind of too busy reading

MIRI: Um I read obsessively as a child too

MARCHAE: and literally trying to be exactly like my  grandmother

KRIS: I know you didn’t MEAN that as a burn on us

But it kind of felt like one

MIRI: Very much so

MARCHAE: NO I swear it absolutely wasn’t LOLOLOL

it was just my nerdy life

you all were probably somewhere being normal and not trying to be your grandmother

MIRI: Also, is that why you’re convinced you’re a grandma? Because you’re trying to be your grandma specifically?

I got yelled at in elementary school for reading while we walked between classes

MARCHAE: yes *quietly*

MIRI: I was no variety of normal

BACK TO WONDER WOMAN!

KRIS: Oh so I sat by these two women (maybe around my age, maybe a little younger) who felt no fewer than three feelings every single second

MARCHAE: I got yelled at by mom for reading Jackie Collins in elementary school 😕

MIRI: who is also not normal

Hahahahahaha what kind of feelings did they seem to feel?

KRIS: And there was a tiny part of me, just general moviegoer me, that was like, okay, this is a lot

But mostly I was like you know what, this is great

A lot of “YAS bitch”

for Diana training, Diana climbing the tower, Diana saying things

Hippolyta saying “They do not deserve you”

MIRI: I actually had some concerns about that line

MARCHAE: do tell miri

MIRI: “They do not deserve you” implies weird things to me. It was a bit similar to the way guys describing women as innocent and pure as a compliment weirds me out. Like, she has an obligation to feel/be a certain way to maintain her quality or something? Also the idea that any person is inherently better than other people is a little skeevy. And I know she’s an Amazon, not a human, but still. 

KRIS: This only occurred to me now but I think Steve’s line later -- “It’s not about deserve” -- is supposed to be heard as a response to Hippolyta

MARCHAE: I liked that line a lot and noted it actually

MIRI: That makes sense to me

I mean Hippolyta can have some not great implications

KRIS: Hippolyta’s not wrong about [hu]man[ity in general], but Diana’s still right to leave

MIRI: That’s a fine thing for a character to do

She puts Diana above the whole world, as her mother

Which is pretty natural but also kind of shitty to the rest of the world, so it’s v consistent

I just don’t want it to become the pull quote of the movie, you know?

MARCHAE: for me I took it in the context of relationships and if more women heard that people didn’t deserve them (not necessarily literally) but in terms of the emotional and physical depeltion we go through so frequently as a result of giving so much of ourselves to ALL THE PEOPLE

MIRI: I think people frequently suck but I don’t want to start assuming they will en masse/by default

MARCHAE: our kids, our family, our spouses, our job

MIRI: I totally agree with that!

KRIS: I don’t know, I don’t really have a problem with it in the context of Steve’s reply

MIRI: Yes, his reply is great!

KRIS: In the ethics of this story, what people “deserve” isn’t as important as what can be done for them

MIRI: I just have already seen people using that quote alone as the description under gifts and stuff

MARCHAE: I literally grew up hearing that particularly because i am so empathetic and sympathetic and often would get hurt... i didn’t mind it

MIRI: and I think without the context it’s dangerous

Women definitely deserve to be told that people who don’t deserve them don’t deserve them

and that no one deserves ALL OF THEM

MARCHAE: but see i don’t know miri again women don’t hear that enough... and again i mean it in re to us giving without contemplating the repercussions

MIRI: because we’re socialized to give all

KRIS: I guess what I’m saying is that I don’t think people are inherently good any more than Hippolyta thinks they’re inherently bad

MARCHAE: so in that way its not necessarily problematic

MIRI: Right, we need to hear that

but H is painting with a very broad brush

MARCHAE: ( I mean I do agree with Hippolyta ... we learn to be good)

MIRI: I think assuming that people are inherently bad allows us to treat people badly

or like they don’t matter

I’d like to have faith in people’s ability to be better than that

Like Diana does

I mean take no shit

but don’t assume that people are shit from the get go

You know?

MARCHAE: This is why the world needs people like you and Diana to balance out people like me who are generally skeptical

i mean i will help all the people but constantly am on guard for the next AWFUL thing

MIRI: I mean I’m skeptical too!

KRIS: Sure

MIRI: I just would like to not be!

MARCHAE: TRUTH

MIRI: And see I feel like you are nicer and more generous than I am!!!

MARCHAE: that’s kind of you LOL

MIRI: Ok, shall we move on?

Ready to discuss wardrobe, Marchae?

KRIS: I guess I feel that “people are inherently good” is also a problematic assumption, like it’s kind of morally lazy

MARCHAE: OK GO

KRIS: But yeah let’s do wardrobe

MARCHAE: KRIS

MIRI: Wait no I want to address that!

MARCHAE: you can’t just drop that

and leave

MIRI: You can’t just drop that!

KRIS: I think this is a bigger issue than Wonder Woman

MIRI: I don’t think you have to assume people are inherently good

in order to not assume they are inherently bad

KRIS: I know

Which is why I do neither

MARCHAE: but i think that’s what made the movie good is that it prompted this goodness!!!! *mic drop @kris*

MIRI: Right, but H implies (at least to my read!) that mankind is inherently bad

MARCHAE: @kris really?

(that really also does not imply shock, but a general curiosity)

KRIS: But I think “people are inherently good” rhetoric is like trusting too much in “hope and change” rhetoric, and believing in a “moral arc of the universe”

The arc of the universe doesn’t just bend toward justice; people make an effort to bend it

MIRI: Yes, which can lead to lots of complacency and accepting of suffering

MARCHAE: but wait, I assume we are bad and taught to be good...

how does that play into this

MIRI: But assuming that people are inherently anything is a generalization that is not helpful imo

You do?

KRIS: Like I said I think this is getting beyond the scope of Wonder Woman

MIRI: Do you think your baby cousin is inherently bad?

I think children are mostly loving and empathetic

And learn badness pretty easily

but don’t start that way

MARCHAE: I think we teach them that

MIRI: We teach them empathy??

MARCHAE: to be loving and empathetic by modeling that behavior

MIRI: Hmmmmm

MARCHAE: yeah...they cry we  pick them up and “coddle” them

they cry we gasp

we teach that in many ways

MIRI: But they laugh when they see us happy

The happiness of others brings them joy

MARCHAE: because we laugh we we seem them happy as well

when*

MIRI: They share food and toys with the people they love so freely

MARCHAE: Because we teach them those things too...we don’t generall ywithhold things for little ones

MIRI: I mean yes, they are modeling us. But I think there is very little capacity for artifice in babies

When they’re happy, they laugh--not just smile. Anything that makes them a little happy makes them laugh

they have no gating mechanism for feelings

MARCHAE: and also makes us do the same

MIRI: so I believe it’s genuine when they are made happy by seeing others happy

MARCHAE: (also kris has left the building)

MIRI: I know

he’s right, we should get back to WW

We can cut this out

MARCHAE: ok

SORRY KRiS

KRIS: ANYWAY

MIRI: Ok, wardrobe!

MARCHAE: we will do better in the future

DID HE CAPS @ US!!!

ok

MIRI: (don’t sass me like that, Miranda)

MARCHAE: YES

MIRI: Can we talk about the armor of the Amazons?

because I am in love with it

MARCHAE: THE ARMOR period

MIRI: across the board

Her aunt can get it

KRIS: Something I found interesting was that between the costuming and the cinematography, they came about as close as they could to justifying the skimpiness of the Wonder Woman costume

MIRI: She joins my list of formidable blonde warrior women who I want to just pick me up in their strong arms and carry me away

1) Gwendoline Christie 😍😍😍

How so, Kris?

KRIS: It makes sense that on Themyscira wardrobe in general would just prioritize comfort and freedom of movement

MIRI: Right

KRIS: It’s eternally summer (or something like it)

MARCHAE: http://www.newnownext.com/wonder-woman-spin-gif-wall/09/2014/

KRIS: They haven’t had to fight a real war in ages

MARCHAE: So i am sending this list for my point

MIRI: It looked pretty eternally summer-y there too

MARCHAE: in the old show I am sure it was eternally summer

there is a tremendous distinction between the old show and this film

and  the main one is the armor

K: I think the fact that it’s metal armor is something for which even most Zack Snyder skeptics can appreciate his HARDER BETTER FASTER STRONGER sensibilities

MIRI: GOD the cleavage difference in that first side by side is GIVING ME LIFE

MARCHAE: if you check the old amazons they wore like this silk

and flowy stuff and they fought and trained

but these women signified visually power

Diana’s street wear in the film was a direct shout out to the show right down to the glasses!!!!

MIRI: That dressing room montage was hilarious!!! 

MARCHAE: it was so great

so much so that i wrote it in BIG LETTERS

MIRI: I liked her kicks and lunges a lot

Hahahahhaha ❤️ ❤️ ❤️ 

MARCHAE: but what she landed on was a very militaristic look which made my soul sing

KRIS: And that Diana’s armor has a skirt has never really been a problem (the bikini bottom version was always dumb), because that’s vaguely Greek, but practically speaking it should be longer

K: And don’t get me wrong, I also would still prefer that the armor went all the way up to her neck and shoulders. But from interviews it seems like Jenkins is a big fan of the classic look, not just following a Warner/DC mandate, and I think she and Lindy Hemming (the costume designer) did go some distance toward justifying it.

MIRI: Very much agreed

MARCHAE: THANK YOU

KRIS: But the cinematography AND choreography emphasized her greaves a lot, which was great

Lots of shots of her shins and feet

MARCHAE: YES!

and also surprisingly her arms !

MIRI: She was shot as a fighter/action hero

and I fucking love it

MARCHAE: which interestingly the strongest part on a woman is her legs @kris

KRIS: And she used her greaves for that slide across the floor to chop that column down

MARCHAE: so i think it was cool that we saw that

KRIS: The strongest part on any human is their legs

MARCHAE: well men have more strength in their arms

KRIS: More than women, but not more than in their legs, unless they’re being idiots

about their workouts

MIRI: More than women typically do, but I think their legs are still more powerful than their arms

Kris and I are having a lot of the same thoughts tonight but he has them faster

Which is probably accurate but I don’t like it being so clear

KRIS: I have a bowler hat if anyone (in LA) ever wants to cosplay Diana’s civilian getup

Although the brim isn’t very broad

MIRI: YES OBVIOUSLY THANK YOU PLEASE

KRIS: I guess this all brings us to that great alley fight scene

MARCHAE: YES!

KRIS: Which I have learned is an homage to the attempted mugging scene in Richard Donner’s Superman

MIRI: Oh, that’s nice!

I feel like the movie took a lot of joy in Diana being so capable

KRIS: Like Marchae, Patty Jenkins is a massive fan of that movie

MIRI: I love it

KRIS: I loved Steve’s “Stand back! ... Or maybe not!”

Not just a look of shock

But an actual “You know what, clearly you’ve got this”

MIRI: Steve Trevor is willing to accept that he is wrong sometimes

MARCHAE: YESS!!!

MIRI: without being a bitch baby about it

MARCHAE: and that was reassuring

MIRI: I am very much in favor

Did we enjoy the fact that Chris Pine had the Love Interest Bathing scene?

Because I enjoyed that and not just because he is very attractive

MARCHAE: all of the men recognized that she was competent

KRIS: It was a good, funny-but-not-dumb-funny scene

MIRI: True! I liked their little ragtag team

KRIS: It helped that Steve’s team was two-thirds men of color

MIRI: YES

MARCHAE: I liked them together

KRIS: And that they got their lines in about that but didn’t do it in a thudding way like Cat Grant’s speech in the Supergirl pilot

MIRI: I REALLY loved that they addressed PTSD somewhat

KRIS: Yes

And I also am just always happy to see Ewen Bremner

MARCHAE: Oh yeah they did!

MIRI: I think if you want to use a real event like WWI as your setting, you owe it to everyone to treat it with some genuine concern in a way tent pole movies rarely take the time to do

KRIS: And Diana’s line to keep him in the team [“Who will sing for us?”] after having dismissed him as dishonorable was a very key Wonder Woman moment

in addition to being funny and sweet

MIRI: And it was realistic without taking away from the plot

YEs! Loved her line there

KRIS: The understated delivery was so great

MIRI: Gal Godot is incredibly charming

MARCHAE: She’s very kind and saw the value in all of the people especially after being skeptical

MIRI: Just like across the board

MARCHAE: She very much at times looked like Lynda Carter

her mannerisms and carriage

KRIS: Yeah, I’ve actually revised my opinion of the performance upward from when I first saw it

Not that I ever didn’t like it

MARCHAE: but also looked very much like herself

that’s cool

KRIS: But I wasn’t necessarily thinking it was an all-time great superhero performance, because Downey and Evans are there

But in hindsight, the sheer range of stuff she has to do while maintaining a certain consistency is really impressive

MIRI: It is a big ask

MARCHAE: truth

KRIS: I mean that ice cream line

“You should be very proud”

MIRI: she has to be innocent without infantilizing the character, which is a line they walked very well

Omg she’s just so earnest there!

❤️ ❤️ ❤️ 

MARCHAE: but seriously all makers of ice cream should indeed be proud! She speaks for all of the universe there 😊

KRIS: I do wish we’d gotten a scene of Diana interacting with a young girl

MIRI: I am lactose intolerant and sad

Ooh that would have been nice

MARCHAE: (DANG IT MIRI)

KRIS: She’s never met one! (and that baby was the first she’d ever seen!)

MIRI: In the village, maybe

MARCHAE: That would have been so brilliant

MIRI: Yes, they played her love of children/wonder at seeing one very nicely

MARCHAE: I guess the film feels satisfied because we see her as a child

MIRI: And just the fish out of water of it all in general

Little Diana’s love of fighting is great

KRIS: At least one of the animated DC movies gives Diana a great moment with a kid, though, so I kind of thought it was an obvious thing to do. But the absence doesn’t do any harm, it would just have been a really great extra

MIRI: I kind of want her and x-23 from Logan to be friends

MARCHAE: ( I still need to see LOGAN!!!)

KRIS: (Laura using Logan’s back as a springboard in that third act is another teary Kris moment)

(also Laura’s first big set piece in general)

MIRI: I love that you cry for great action sequences

I’m bringing that up in an interview about you some day, I swear

MARCHAE: I love that this is a thing i just learned about you!

KRIS: Well it’s interesting, because something like John Wick doesn’t necessarily do that to me

MIRI: It’s the most Kris think I’ve ever heard

KRIS: And that’s probably the gold standard for actual fight design

MIRI: Really?

So is there a pattern for action sequences that make you teary?

KRIS: I’m not sure yet. But there’s definitely something about the big super heroic jumps and stuff

MIRI: Interesting. We will check in on this periodically

MARCHAE: they are fantastical

this movie gave me goosebumps at several points

it was really weird

KRIS: Like sometimes fight scenes are “just” really great, and sometimes they’re specifically beautiful

And I think Winter Soldier is one of the only other movies in recent memory that does the latter

Though this also does not make me tear up, as far as I remember? Still, it’s definitely high on the list of my favorite action movies.

MIRI: The first big Amazon training sequence took my breath away

KRIS: in terms of being fascinated with how the (super)human body moves

MARCHAE: hmmm... i think you should do a post and tell us the top ten most cinematically beautiful scenes you’ve watched

MIRI: YES

SECONDED

KRIS: I don’t know that I’ve seen quite enough to be credible on that yet but we can leave a pin in it

Actually the action set pieces that have gotten Feelings out of me have not tended to be fights. As I’ve previously discussed, the airplane rescues in Iron Man 3 and Superman Returns are at the top of my list. But they might have just gotten some company, because...

I guess we should talk about No Man’s Land?

We’ve sort of touched on it

MIRI: Let’s

MARCHAE: YES

KRIS: But I’m assuming we all got weepy for that

MIRI: Not quite, but I was definitely feeling some feelings

KRIS: Like that’s not just a great action moment, that’s a top 10 superhero movie moment

MIRI: The climb up the ladder specifically or the whole sequence?

MARCHAE: my theater clapped

MIRI: Oh yeah, clapped and cheered

KRIS: The whole thing, or even just the whole part up through getting past the German trench. I saw in an interview that Patty Jenkins had to fight to keep it as it was

MIRI: Really?

What did the powers that be want to change?

MARCHAE: REALLY

KRIS: The sequence isn’t about Diana kicking ass

MARCHAE: I wonder why

MIRI: The shots of her taking all of the fire were just gorgeous

So they wanted more kicking and punching?

MARCHAE: it was about strenght

KRIS: Yeah, she paraphrased the doubt as “how many bullets can she fight?”

MARCHAE: strength*

KRIS: So she storyboarded it out herself to convince them why it had to be that way and why it would work

MIRI: I’m so glad that Patty Jenkins won that fight

MARCHAE: ALL OF THEM

ME TOO

MIRI: Because as amazing as the kicking and punching are, I think that sequence says a lot about her willingness to fight for others

It’s not just glory for her

KRIS: And how she inspires others

MARCHAE: the bullets are almost a metaphor(?) for the crap we deal with ON A DAILY)

MIRI: She’ll draw the fire if that’s what needs doing

MARCHAE: and can withstand it

KRIS: I mean when that first trailer dropped there were immediately gifs of the close-up shield shots captioned like “being a woman on the internet”

MIRI: God I loved that sequence and I love it more now

MARCHAE: @KRIS YASSS

being a woman ON THE LIFE CIRCUT

KRIS: One of the things that makes this better than not only Man of Steel but a lot of the Marvel movies is that it’s better at defining how the world reacts to Diana

And Steve leading his guys across is one of the ways it does that

Because the movie cares about those guys as individuals before it cares about them as accessories to Diana 

MIRI: Yes! and Yes!

MARCHAE: *CLAPS for KRIS*

KRIS: Novice writers: this is one of the ways “show, don’t tell” works

Don’t just have newscasters talking about how the world looks to the hero

MIRI: I’ve seen some worries that the men are given way more consideration than female counterparts in male driven superhero stuff are

MARCHAE: There was a lot of character development in this film and it was delicious

MIRI: But I think I’m ok with it because leading by example

(Like Diana does 😉 )

KRIS: Give us some characters we empathize with so we care how THEY react

Right

MIRI: Him understanding what she was doing there and trusting it just great

KRIS: It’s a problem of context

MIRI: totally

KRIS: Not a problem of Wonder Woman

(The context is Stop Letting Men Write Female Love Interests)

MIRI: (Or at least stop letting them write ALL OF THEM)

MARCHAE: yup

MIRI: ((I mean I’d be happy with like a 5 year ban to even the books a bit but whatever))

KRIS: I like how I’m always the one who’s like KILL ALL MEN and one of you is always like Not Literally ALL Men

but it’s also not that funny because again, Being a Woman on the Internet

MIRI: Well people won’t take you seriously for saying it

exactly

MARCHAE: LOL

MIRI: and also I’m constantly striving to be a less cynical person than I am

MARCHAE: *shakes head at miri*

Part 2 of our Reaction is here.