i've been really wracked by the stuff asgore said to flowery at the end of the chapter because it's genuinely so.... sad to me like to tell him you were just playing along and you didn't care you just wanted the fountain and act like the burden was on him to know... i'm sad.. and i kept thinking about it because it's literally incomparable to how asgore treats toriel to me, because asgore was DIVORCED by Toriel, he knows what reciprocation from toriel looks like and he knows toriel doesn't want him back, he has all the resources to know he's desperately and obsessively harassing someone who divorced him, and flowery is ... a flower and does not have that history of relationships or of reciprocation enough to know. i have a lot of thoughts and questions about it, mostly from a character pov - WHY would asgore say that?
my first thought was that asgore actually doesn't have a ralsei to tell him how the dark worlds work, so everything he knows is just assumptions about it off rip. so when he says "Back in the real world, my shop is waiting. It's not right to leave it empty. Someone has to take care of the flowers", he might GENUINELY not even KNOW flowery is one of the flowers, right? i might have to go back over the whole chap, but maybe he genuinely doesn't realize it's the same consciousness, it's the same living thing. flowery might have shot himself in the foot by trying to convince asgore he was his lifelong college roommate and best friend. i don't know, that's the explanation where i give asgore the benefit of the doubt of just not understanding dark worlds ā and i think by his use of "back in the real world" and his general neglect of the flowers in the dark world, he also just doesn't have the same sympathetic tendency susie has to darkners where she sees them as real (though she also tends to refer to 'reality' vs the dark world some of the time, i think it's a matter of how you treat the beings in the dark world that is intentionally juxtaposed)
my other thought is that when you think about it, asgore is kind of not the most socially tactful person. he's not very bright, period, but also i'm thinking of that true pacifist dialogue at the end where he apologizes and then takes it back (abbreviated caps). which is like, played as a joke, but does indicate something. some kind of emotional incompetence. which colours his general strat of 'declare war on humans after death of child -> lose wife who doesnt agree -> crash out and kill 5 or 6 kids and feel horrible about it every time' and it's such a horrible plan toriel cooks him for it. he just... says and does things. i dont know
idk there's more to say and before this chap i didn't focus a lot on sincere asgore analysis so i think i have to go back to both games and cook more but i think maybe there is something to be said about who asgore is as a person. maybe he struggles with empathy, which isn't really a sin, and we know he is kind... you can be kind and still struggle with experiencing empathy (RALSEI). i thought it was also really revealing that during the That Day flashback he puts "proving it wasn't my fault" first over "making sure it never happens again", which kind of furthers this notion of asgore as really just in his own head, being extremely fixated on A Goal so much he loses sight of how fucked up he's acting (he has a similar emphasis on The Goal as chara as mentioned in alarm clock dialogue - they both fill/filled bowls and cups up to the brim for efficiency's sake)
.................. much to think about! flowery i fear your bear has demons
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Humans donāt have magic by nature, but they can gain magic by absorbing Boss monster souls, specifically.
The seven magicians would have to have done this before creating the barrier, and itās why Asgore, Toriel, and Asriel were the only remaining Boss monsters seen or talked about in the story.
After the creation of the barrier, humans on the surface lost the ability to use magic, because there were no boss monsters to gain magic from.
This relationship with magic and monsters was part of what sparked the war. Humans feared the power monsters held, but maybe also feared what would happen if other humans/other nations controlled that power. The act of sealing them away forever was considered by the poncho human an act of mercy instead of wiping them out completely. (Iāve got lots more headcanons about poncho humanās relationship with Asgore, but another post another day.)
Later, legends of āslaying the beast for power and gloryā evolved in human culture, and stuck around even after humans had forgotten monsters really existed.
I wanted to get a better feel for Asgoreās character, so I began to write up my own interpretation of his character. In general, this is just an analysis of Asgoreās actions and why he did what he did, and less so of an argument on whether he was right or wrong, although I do talk about that a little bit.
TL;DR: Asgore did not believe that humans and monsters could peacefully coexist. This is the reason he chose to kill any human who fell and why he upheld his promise of war; because if they did ever go free, in his eyes war and the destruction of humanity would be the only way to save his people. He did not kill the humans because of a fear of revolt or because of a need to keep up hope. He did not kill the humans because he enjoyed it, but because his sense of duty overrides his own personal desires. It isnāt until he meets Frisk that he and his kingdom regain hope that humans and monsters could live together in peace.
There is no evidence in the game to say that Asgore absolutely killed all six humans or that all the humans were children. However, I think that what few hints we do get from the game all point to it being true; that Asgore killed six children before Frisk came.
ALL THE HUMANS WERE CHILDREN
A quote from Toby for Escapist Magazine:
āThe story will be revealed when the full game is released. Though I think we know more than that. Here's some info from the demo, summarized (spoilers): A long time ago, monsters were sealed underground by the humans. Several human children have climbed the mountain, fallen down, left the RUINS, and were assumedly killed by monsters. One monster, "Asgore" is seeking the souls of these human children.ā
This interview was done in 2013, so it would seem that Toby intended for there to be some children who fell when first developing the game. While things may have been changed since then, I think there are still clues from within the finished game that show that all the humans were children.
Toriel: "Pathetic, is it not? I cannot save even a single child."
Toriel makes a remark that can be read in two ways. The first is that she is only talking about saving Frisk, the other is that she is talking about being unable to save any of the ones who fell. Personally, I feel that itās the latter, but of course this seems up to interpretation.
(A box of kids' shoes in a disparity of sizes.)
Not only do we see that the shoes that Toriel has are all kids shoes, but near the end of the game we can see all the coffins are the same size as the first one that was built to house the body of a human child. And with a toy knife and ribbon, we can at least say that the cyan soul was most definitely a child.
Frisk is noted in game to wear all the items they pick up, even when it wouldnāt make much sense for them to do so, as with the cloudy glasses. In order for Frisk to wear these items comfortably the original owners would have to have been children. While Frisk could definitely have worn items a few sizes too big, I think it makes sense for these items to have been intended to be for Friskās size. Mainly because I canāt imagine Frisk barely keeping large glasses from falling off their face, or for Frisk to awkwardly shuffle around in ballet shoes that threaten to fall off with each step.
At any rate, there doesnāt seem to be anything in the game that definitely hints towards one of the humans being a teen or adult. An argument could be made for the empty gun, but it isnāt at all impossible for a child to get their hands on one, either in the real world or in a world set in a rpg.
ASGORE KILLED ALL SIX HUMANS
I donāt think we can state that Asgore without a doubt canonically killed all the humans, (because thereās not quite enough hard evidence in the game for that) but based on what we can see from the game, I think thatās the most likely answer.
The last human fell into the Underground a long time ago.
Inn Keeper Bunny: āHiya! Welcome to Snowdin! I can't remember the last time I saw a fresh face around here.ā
Toriel: āI pass through this place every day to see if anyone has fallen down. You are the first human to come here in a long time.ā
The last humans who fell predated Flowey, and seem to predate the main characters as well.
Undyne: āWhat the hell are humans made out of!?
Anyone else would be DEAD by now!
Alphys told me humans were determined...
I see now what she meant by that!ā
From this, we can tell that Undyne at least, has never fought a human.
Undyne: āThere's normally a pair of old shoes in that seagrass.
Strangely, they're made for someone without fins or claws.
What kind of monster is like that...?ā
Another thing we can say about Undyne, is that she never even considers that a human may have died or left the ballet shoes behind, or that if a human died around these parts to put two and two together. Itās possible that she wasnāt even around when the blue soul died, or that the blue soul ever even died in Waterfall.
Undyne: āYou see, Alphys showed me these animations about...
Uhhh, humans? So I can learn their weaknesses?ā
All Undyneās knowledge of humans comes from Alphysā comic books and anime. Had a human fallen within Undyneās life, or especially during her time in the Royal Guard, we could expect her knowledge of humans to at least be a bit more based in reality.
Opinions may vary, but I think the last human who fell predates Undyne entirely, and if thatās the case, then other characters like Sans, Papyrus, Alphys and Mettaton are unlikely to have met a human before either.
Do we know where the humans may have died? Do the placement of the humanās items mean anything? If so, does that mean that they never made it to Asgore?
Monsterkid: āWe had a school project where we had to take care of a flower. The king - we had to call him "Mr. Dreemurr" - volunteered to donate his own flowers. He ended up coming to school and teaching the class about responsibility and stuff.ā
It's a bureau. There's a Santa Claus outfit inside. (Implying Asgore goes around as Santa, specifically to Snowdin.)
Napstablook: āthis place used to get a lot of business...
but our main customer disappeared one day...
now it's just some hairy guy that shows up once a monthā¦ā
Gerson: "King Fluffybuns? He's a friendly, happy-go-lucky kind of guy... If you keep walking around long enough, you'll probably meet him."
Itās entirely possible that if the humans died all over the Underground, Asgore still would have had the opportunity to kill them. But, the placement of their items doesnāt mean that they died at that specific place, although itās very possible some did.
The items that were left behind, that despite being part of a set, were all dropped in different places (eg. The ribbon and toy knife were found in separate areas), suggesting that the humans have either thrown them away, lost them, or that over time monsters themselves moved them about. If itās possible for the humans to leave behind one item, itās also possible that they could have left behind both and continued on with other, better ones; the same thing that we do in the game.
The order in which the items are found may indicate the order in which the children fell, and perhaps thatās how Toby intended for us to read it, but we have no real way of knowing. They could have fallen in any order. The yellow soul, for instance, may have been the last to fall if we look at how their items were the last ones we come across. If we look at the check on their gun however:
An antique revolver. It has no ammo. Must be used precisely, or damage will be low.
Itās antique. While they may have set out with an old gun to begin with, they could just as well have set out with a gun that was modern for their time. In this case, they could be one of the first humans to fall, as we would then need a good amount of time to pass for their gun to be seen as antique to Frisk.
Perhaps the children fell in the order the coffins are laid out in Asgoreās basement. Although considering how the colours of the souls are all arranged as if in a rainbow, it may also just be a design choice.
At any rate, I donāt think the Cyan Soul, even if they did die in the Ruins, would just stop there. The game indicates that all, or some of the humans, were able to reset like Frisk. Toriel mentions a familiar feeling with the humans.
Toriel: "When humans fall down here, strangely... I...
I often feel like I already know them.
Truthfully, when I first saw you, I felt...
...like I was seeing an old friend for the first time."
Asgore is not at all surprised to realize that heās already killed you.
You tell ASGORE that he's killed you.
He nods sadly.
So itās extremely likely that they all were able to make their way until they hit something they could just not defeat, regardless of how many times they tried, which in this case would be the strongest monster in the Underground: Asgore.
So I think that all the children were able to survive in the Underground long enough to either meet him along the way to his castle, or make it to the castle itself. The game itself gives us at least one clue that Asgore has definitely killed at least one human.
Undyne: āBut even if you could beat me... / But even if I spared YOU...
No human has EVER made it past ASGORE!
Honestly, killing you now is an act of mercy...! / Honestly, I'm doing you a favor...ā
Undyne says that no human that met Asgore made it past him, although it doesnāt specify the number. Undyneās statement makes no sense if no human ever actually met Asgore, so we know at least one has.
You could argue that Undyne is trying to say that even if a human died before meeting Asgore, that their body and soul were collected by him and went no farther. But I believe that Undyne is mentioning Asgoreās name here as a threat, not as some passive barrier that no other children had encountered. I think this makes sense considering how she mentions that even if we were to beat her, there would still be another obstacle for us to face, Asgore, and that killing us now would be mercy compared to him. This would imply that he is a force to be reckoned with and the reason that we should have no hope of escaping.
Undyne is in the middle of trying to kill us, to intimidate us, to make us lose hope. Mentioning a monster who had no part in the deaths of any other humans, but was the last point their already dead bodies reached so technically speaking none made it past him, isnāt really the type of boast sheāll be making in this situation.
Another point in the game we can tell that Asgore did indeed meet at least one human...
You stare deep into the eyes of the Lost Soul.
He remembers the gaze of humans past...
Here itās implied that heās met humans before, and with the wording and the situation this is taking place (lost soul), it seems itās referring to other humans that were in the same situation as Frisk.
Sans: āthe human souls the king gathered... seem to have disappeared. so, uh, that plan ain't happening any time soon.ā
Although to be fair with what Sans says, we donāt know for sure if gathering means that he killed them, or just collected them from the Royal Guard.
Outside of the game however, there is a tweet made by Toby regarding the issue.
Toby: āpast asgore not to asgoreā
undhell: āoooohhhhh ripā
Toby: ārip six timesā
And another soon after...
undhell: āOK FINE I love the m u r d e r e r
Toby: āThatās the ticket.ā
I donāt want to cite this as definite proof, not because his tweets arenāt canon, but because this tweet has been deleted. However, this just shows that at one point after the game came out, Toby considered Asgore to have been the one to kill them all.
ASGORE NEVER WANTED TO FREE THE UNDERGROUND
Gerson and Asgore, prior to Charaās fall, both agreed on how to handle their circumstances.
Gerson: "Long ago, ASGORE and I agreed that escaping would be pointless...
Since once we left, humans would just kill us.
I felt a little betrayed when he eventually changed his mind.
But now, I think... Maybe he was right to.
'Cause after all, even though we never escaped...
A human's killing us anyway, ain't that right?"
Which, of course, makes sense with what Toriel accused Asgore of when they reunited.
Toriel: "You pathetic whelp.
If you really wanted to free our kind...
You could have gone through the barrier after you got ONE SOUL...
...taken six SOULs from the humans, then come back and freed everyone peacefully.
But instead, you made everyone live in despair...
Because you would rather wait here, meekly hoping another human never comes."
And we can see that Asgore never truly changed his mind about leaving the Underground. Or rather, he did when he was filled with the need for vengeance, but as that fell away so did his desire to return to the surface, and he agrees with Torielās viewpoint of him.
Asgore declared war in a fit of rage. As his rage subsided and stopped clouding his judgment, Asgore was left with four choices.
Go through the barrier with one soul, absorb six others, and lead a war.
Retract his declaration of war, take one soul when it becomes available through peaceful means, and attempt peace with humanity.
Kill all humans who fell, and then break the barrier and lead a war.
Befriend all humans who fall, and whenever time comes that enough souls have been collected through peaceful means, break the barrier and make peace with humanity.
There are four different outcomes for four different options. One has war as soon as it becomes available, another has attempting peace as soon as the option becomes available, and the other two are stall tactics, albeit with widely different outcomes.
If Asgore was serious about freeing his people, he would have chosen option one or option two. As it stands, Asgore changed his mind about changing his mind from his earlier agreement with Gerson. He did not want to free the Underground.
ALPHYS AND HER EXPERIMENTS
You might ask: what about Alphys? Asgore told her to find a way to break the barrier, so isnāt he actively trying to free everyone here, rather than hoping the barrier never needs to break? I think that Asgore never thought or hoped that Alphys would actually succeed in her research and experiments.
Asgore did not go out and search for alternative ways to break the barrier of his own accord. Once again he was content to wait until it came to him and he could not ignore it. Alphys came to him with her robot with a soul, and since even Bratty and Catty knew how important this would have been to Asgore personally, he had no option to turn it down without raising suspicion.Though of course, after Gasterās disappearance, Asgore may very well have been waiting for someone to be near the same level of brilliance of Gaster.
But what really leads me to believe that he never truly hoped Alphys would succeed is how he handled it compared to how Toriel does in one of the endings.
Alphys: "I'm trying to figure a way for us to get out of here!
B-but I kinda have no idea what I'm doing.
I'll figure it out eventually, though.
The queen is a lot different from ASGORE...
She actually checks to see if I'm doing anything.
She's really turned this whole place around!"
Toriel is not only keeping tabs on things and showing an active interest in the process, but she is trying to make things work. In contrast, Asgore never once makes an attempt to look in on Alphys, and in fact leaves the position of Royal Scientist unfilled for a long length of time. Even Alphys herself notes how unhelpful Asgore is.
ENTRY NUMBER 20
ASGORE left me five messages today.
four about everyone being angry
one about this cute teacup he found that looks like me
thanks asgore.
Not out of malice, since of course he doesnāt want Alphys to suffer in any way, but because he doesnāt want to help improve conditions because he doesnāt want it to succeed. If Asgore really wanted to free everyone without having to kill more humans than necessary, he would have definitely taken a bigger interest in Alphys and her experiments, especially once he knew that people were starting to get angry at her and that she may be having some issues. But he didnāt.
WHY DIDNāT TORIEL CROSS THE BARRIER?
But what about Toriel? Why didnāt she cross the barrier with only one soul and then attempt to make peace with humanity that way? If she was unwilling to do that, yet accuses Asgore of not doing the same thing, is she not hypocritical?
If Toriel was serious about her plan, she wasn't suggesting that they kill for those six other souls. That would go against everything she has stood for and against everything she had said only moments earlier.
Toriel: āIt is not right to sacrifice someone simply to let someone leave here. Is that not what I have been trying to prevent this whole time?ā
Toriel: "You could have gone through the barrier after you got ONE SOUL...
...taken six SOULs from the humans, then come back and freed everyone peacefully.ā
She mentions that Asgore could have done it peacefully, so I find it very doubtful that she was suggesting that Asgore should have killed in order to collect the other souls.
I donāt think Toriel was even serious to begin with.
Toriel: āIf you really wanted to free our kind... ā
āIfā being the keyword here.
Toriel is saying that if Asgore truly wanted to free everyone, he would have done this and this. Since he didnāt, Asgoreās statements that he wanted to free everyone was a lie. Toriel is only pointing out Asgoreās own hypocrisy, and not making a serious suggestion for a plan.
At any rate, Toriel cannot cross the barrier if Asgore doesnāt allow it. Not only does he seem to be the only one with access to the souls, but if he doesnāt change his mind about freeing everyone Torielās only option would be to get it by force, and would not only have to go against Asgore, but the whole Underground as well. And if she did have to go against everyone, destroying the barrier would be counterproductive to stopping the war, since this would allow the monsters the ability truly begin the war with humanity.
Of course, then the question becomes whether or not Toriel could slowly convince Asgore to stop the war if she had just stayed. Toriel only stayed after Asgoreās declaration of war for the amount of time it took for the golden flower to bloom that the children had brought back from the surface.
ENTRY NUMBER 8
I've chosen a candidate.
I haven't told ASGORE yet, because I want to surprise him with it...
In the center of his garden, there's something special.
The first golden flower, that grew before all the others.
The flower from the outside world.
It appeared just before the queen left.
While we donāt know how long it takes for a golden flower to sprout, we can tell that Toriel did not leave as soon as Asgore made his speech (assuming his speech was made very soon after Asrielās death), but she also did not stay very long either.
Asgore himself is even more vague on the timeline around Torielās departure.
Asgore: āIn a fit of anger, I declared war.
I said that I would destroy any human that came here.
I would use their souls to become godlike...
...and free us from this terrible prison.
Then, I would destroy humanity...
And let monsters rule the surface, in peace.
Soon, the people's hopes returned.
My wife, however, became disgusted with my actions.
She left this place, never to be seen again.ā
Could she have changed his mind if she had stayed longer? Did she stay away out of pure stubbornness? Did she truly believe that she wouldnāt be able to change Asgoreās mind? Did she truly believe that finding the humans first was the best option? Was her anger at Asgore clouding her judgement? Did she do her best to convince him to stop his plan before she gave up and left or did she leave without confronting him on his new plan? Was her leaving and staying away meant to be an ultimatum to Asgore, that it was either her or his plan?Ā Would she even be able to change Asgoreās mind without the burden of what heās done being as heavy as it is in the gameās ending? We canāt say for certain, and whether or not she would be successful in changing Asgoreās mind would be up to interpretation as the game doesnāt give us an answer on what could have been.
All I can say is that while her decision was probably made under extreme emotions as Asgore was when he made his promise, Toriel, like him, did not end up changing her mind. Toriel only left the Ruins to return when she realized that the human would have to kill in order to leave, and she didnāt want that. (Which also to me, suggests that Frisk was the first human Toriel allowed to pass into the rest of the Underground, whereas the other humans would have snuck out.)
While Asgore seems like he feels safer staying in the Underground forever, if the ability to break the barrier came to him he cannot refuse to free everyone. They will eventually have to leave, and while Asgore is content to stay in the Underground, Iām sure he knows this as well. His choices are whether this exodus is in peace, or in war.
IS ASGORE AFRAID OF REVOLT?
Asgore chooses to remain with his plan of murder and eventually war. We know that by the end he does not truly want to hurt anyone, so why does he decide to stay with war rather than peace? Ā
Is Asgore afraid of revolt? He has a kingdom excited for war, so is he afraid that theyāll turn on him like theyāve turned on Toriel in some of the neutral endings?
While this does happen in some of the neutral routes, itās also important to notice that some neutral routes continue on just fine.
Toriel is able to bring peace to the Underground and stop the war mentality even if she hasnāt been seen in a hundred years, if the king is killed, if freedom ripped from their very grasps, if hope is lost, and if up to nine monsters are killed (not Papyrus or Undyne). Undyne will be very clearly angered by this, but she will not overthrow the queen.
Even in endings where Papyrus, Alphys, or Mettaton take over and the goal of killing humans and preparing for war is dropped, the monsters do not revolt.
If it is possible to bring peace to the Underground in those situations, is it too farfetched to think that Asgore could eventuality convince the monsters to abandon war in a case where two royal children are killed and hope is lost, in a place where they still have their original monarch that they respect?
When we finally reach Asgore, he gives us many chances to turn back, but at no point does he seems worried about what the kingdom would think when they find out that heās giving the human a chance to live instead of killing them. Nor does he seem to be concerned with what his kingdom may think when he offers Frisk a home after Frisk spares him. And yet despite this he still attempts to kill Frisk, which is one reason why I think his reasons for following through on killing the humans is not related to a fear of revolt.
Never once does Asgore, or anyone else, allude to revolt or mass unrest as a reason for his choices, so while it may not be easy and may take time to calm down the people, I donāt believe that this is a factor into why Asgore chooses to keep the war mentality alive.
DOES ASGORE NEED HOPE FOR THE KINGDOM?
Did Asgore kill them because he needed hope? Was he too afraid to take back what he said in fear that his kingdom would lose hope? Asgore does allude to this.
Asgore: "Truthfully...
I do not want power. I do not want to hurt anyone.
I just wanted everyone to have hope...
I cannot take this any longer."
He says he wanted everyone to have hope. And sometimes the foundation of this theory relies on the headcanon that without hope, monsters will die, because HP itself means hope. But I disagree with this theory.
(It's a book labelled Monster History Part 6.) Read it Do not
Unfortunately, monsters are not experienced with illness.
However, when monsters are about to expire of age, they lie down, immobile.
We call this state "Fallen Down."
A person who has Fallen Down will soon perish.
In a way, this confusing situation was all too familiar.
Monsters fall down because of old age according to a text that doesnāt make it into the final game. This canāt be considered canon because of that, but this is the closest explanation to what causes monsters to fall down anywhere in or outside the game.
Love, hope, compassion... This is what people say monster SOULs are made of.
But the absolute nature of "SOUL" is unknown.
After all, humans have proven their SOULs don't need these things to exist.
Here it lists hope as being a thing for monster souls, and from there we can guess that thatās where the explanation for HP lies. But look at the wording used here.
āThis is what people sayā and āthe absolute nature of SOUL is unknown.ā This sounds more like a dig at humans rather than a reliable source of information about souls. And even if this was to be taken at face value, (which it might, after all, Asriel talks about compassion and love during and after his escapades without a soul) it does not state that HP specifically stands for hope. I donāt think this theory has any evidence beyond the fact that hope has the letters āhā and āpā in it.
Hope does not seem to be anymore vital to monster survival than it would be for a human.
Asgore says that he just wanted everyone to have hope, but is war the only way to achieve that? In the neutral endings, itās true that everyone seems to struggle in order to hold on to hope.
Toriel is Queen
Sans: "but even though people are heartbroken over the king...
...and things are looking grim for our freedom...
the queen's trying her best not to let us give up hope.
so, uh, hey...
if we're not giving up down here...
don't give up wherever you are, ok?
who knows how long it will take...
but we will get out of here.
that's a promise."
Toriel Overthrown
Sans: "everyone's trying to live life like they always have...
but it's not really easy, you know?
when all of your hope has pretty much been thrown away..."
Papyrus is King
Papyrus: "DON'T TELL MY BROTHER, BUT...
DESPITE THE IMPROVEMENTS WE'VE MADE...
SOMETIMES THIS JOB IS KIND OF HARD.
SINCE THE KING WENT AWAY...
LOTS OF PEOPLE JUST WANT TO GIVE UP.
SOMETIMES, EVEN MY BEST ENCOURAGEMENT...
DOESN'T WORK."
Sans: "everyone considered a leader disappeared overnight.
it's gotten so quiet.
there's a bad feeling hanging over everyone.
like everyone's just going to die here, trapped in the dark..."
While they do struggle, at no point do they sound in danger of imminent death because of a direct loss of hope, nor does it sound like the above couldnāt also apply to humans in the same scenario. Things are tough, sometimes very tough, but with a good leader they are able to move onward. In the end, I donāt think hope was the core reason he chose to kill the humans. It was just a benefit that arose from it. Ā
But why would Asgore choose to give his people hope through killing? It would be more in character for him, since of course he does not want to kill, if he could find hope in a different way. If Chara could give hope, why not another child?
It wouldnāt be easy, of course, but is staying with an easy way to bring hope to his people enough justification to murder seven children rather than attempting a different way, even if itās more difficult? This really makes Asgore comes across as weak and cruel, as even in the best possible Neutral ending with Toriel as queen, life is tough, but the kingdom still seems determined to try their best.
Asgore did not want to hurt anyone, and so he wouldnāt have done so unless he truly felt that he had no other choice. Since I donāt think revolt was an issue and a loss of hope is not a death sentence, these do not come across to me as good enough reasons to drive Asgore to do the unthinkable.
It was his fear of the surface and what he thought would be the eventual war and death that would come from breaking the barrier. Asgore killed the humans and upheld his proclamation of war because he believed in it.
I know plenty of people may say that Asgore couldnāt possibly actually want war, heās too kind for that. He couldnāt possibly go through with it, itās not in his nature. If he never actually intended to go through with the war, why not drop the whole thing, especially if revolt or hope arenāt the reasons he upholds it? What does he really gain from promising war if he never intended to go through with it?
WOULD ASGORE UPHOLD HIS PROMISE?
My answer is yes. Ultimately, I feel that the reason Asgore did not want to free everyone was because he was afraid of the humans. He remembers the war and both Gerson and he think that going to the surface is dangerous. But if he was given the ability to break the barrier, he cannot choose to keep everyone Underground. Asgore is too afraid to attempt peace, so if the time came, he would start a war.
Living in the Underground is not paradise.
Asgore: "After everything I have done to hurt you...
You would rather stay down here and suffer...
Than live happily on the surface?"
Scarf Mouse: "Everyone is always laughing and cracking jokes, trying to forget our modern crises...
Dreariness. Crowding. Lack of sunlight."
What makes him keep everyone down there is that the reality of an open barrier scares him more than what they go through down there. What terrible things that could happen on the surface is what drives him to do things he hates. It would be safer for the Underground for them to meet any human who fell with peace, but Asgore would rather take the risk that comes with greeting the fallen humans with violence, despite knowing how much stronger they are than monsters, because of what he thinks the surface holds for them.
Gerson: "Long ago, ASGORE and I agreed that escaping would be pointless...
Since once we left, humans would just kill us."
Asgore does not truly want to hurt anyone, yet heās killed six. What he wants is different from what heāll do, and this leads to what I think is a key point to Asgoreās character. His sense of duty. Look at what he says as a lost soul:
Asgore: "Forgive me for this."
Asgore: "This is my duty."
Duty is what drives him. In Asgoreās mind, war is the best path for his kingdom, so regardless of his own personal feelings about it, for them that is what heāll do. Even if it kills him inside, and even if he will have to bear the burden forever. For a king, this is an admirable quality.
We may think that Asgore would never destroy humanity based on what weāve learned of him in the game. If that were true, then itās a bit strange then that those who know Asgore better than anyone else are convinced heāll follow through with his promise.
No one should know Asgore better than Toriel, but despite all the time she has spent in the ruins to think things over, she seems to truly believe that he will do as he says.
Toriel: "ASGORE... Do not let ASGORE take your soul.
His plan cannot be allowed to succeed."
Undyne, who spends a lot of time with Asgore, notes that he probably doesnāt want to fight you, which is true.
Undyne: "It seems that you and ASGORE are fated to fight.
But knowing him...
He probably doesn't want to.
Talk to him.
I'm sure you can persuade him to let you go home."
Even though she knows that Asgore isnāt having fun with all the killing and may let you go, she still initially believes that heāll go through with his plan.
Undyne: "With the power of seven human souls, our king...
King ASGORE Dreemurr...
...will become a god.
With that power, ASGORE can finally shatter the barrier.
He will finally take the surface back from humanity...
And give them back the suffering and pain that we have endured."
Mettaton is pretty straight forward with his views.
Mettaton: "LISTEN, DARLING. I'VE SEEN YOU FIGHT.
YOU'RE WEAK.
IF YOU CONTINUE FORWARD, ASGORE WILL TAKE YOUR SOUL.
AND WITH YOUR SOUL, ASGORE WILL DESTROY HUMANITY.
BUT IF I GET YOUR SOUL, I CAN STOP ASGORE'S PLAN!
I CAN SAVE HUMANITY FROM DESTRUCTION!"
Mettaton: "Are YOU the star?
Can you really protect humanity!?"
Mettaton: "YOU'VE PROVEN TO BE VERY STRONG.
PERHAPS... EVEN STRONG ENOUGH TO GET PAST ASGORE.
I'M SURE YOU'LL BE ABLE TO PROTECT HUMANITY."
And Sans, one of the most intuitive characters, believes that Asgore would destroy humanity.
Sans: "your actions here...
will determine the fate of the entire world.
if you refuse to fight...
asgore will take your soul and destroy humanity."
Quite frankly, Sansā final speech here and our upcoming choice lose their punch if we go on the assumption that Asgore would never dream of actually destroying humanity. All of Torielās efforts and her personal exile was all for naught. Ā Asgore essentially paints himself into a corner and suffers for no reason. The humans are killed for no reason if the ultimate goal for their deaths was a lie all along.
After we beat Asgore, he tells us that he is through with the war. In the end it became too much for him.
Asgore: "I cannot take this any longer.
I just want to see my wife.
I just want to see my child.
Please... Young one...
This war has gone on long enough.
You have the power...
Take my soul, and leave this cursed place."
And of course, if we choose mercy he immediately tells us that he will take care of us, which is a big contrast to his actions thus far. Is this evidence that he never would have gone through with the war? I think that no, itās not evidence for that, but instead itās evidence that it was Frisk themselves who ended up changing his mind.
Giving him hope again that humans and monsters could live with each other, that change of mind could not have happened without Frisk. Frisk has helped the other monsters with their problems, and this was Asgoreās problem that he needed help with from Frisk.
Asgore as a lost soul is a good example of this. All the lost souls provide a look into the characters psyche before they met Frisk, and after their memories flood back it shows how Frisk has been able to help them. Undyne was against all humans until Frisk showed them that not all were bad, Sans had given up until Frisk gave him hope, Alphys thought she was on her own and that everyone would hate her until Frisk showed her that she could lean on her friends for support, and Asgore thought he was bound to his role...
Asgore: āForgive me for this.ā
Asgore: āThis is my duty.āĀ
Asgore: ā... ā
...until Frisk gave him hope for a possible future again.
Asgore: āYou are our future!ā
When Asgore talks to Frisk before he kills himself he mentions it too.
Asgore: "I'm reminded of the human that fell here long ago...
You have the same feeling of hope in your eyes.
There is an ancient prophecy among our people...
One day, a savior will come from the heavens.
...I believe the one that was prophecied was you.
Somewhere in the world outside...
There must be a way to free us from our prison.
It pains me to give you this responsiblity, but...
Please. Take my soul... and seek the truth.
Ha... ha...
I'm sorry...
I couldn't give you a simple, happy ending...
But I believe your freedom...
...is what my son...
...what ASRIEL would have wanted."
Without Frisk, Asgore doesnāt gain the confidence that peace is possible, and if he doesnāt think peace is possible and would only lead to getting them killed, then war is the only answer for him.
You may ask about the Pacifist ending. Here Asgore meets Frisk for only a few seconds, never fights them and is interrupted by Toriel instead. I donāt think that ultimately it was Toriel who, in this instance, made him stop and change his mind. Toriel, and everyone else, not the least of whom included the captain of the Royal Guard, didnāt change his mind, they only supported the idea that peace was the answer, which was the idea Asgore had come to by himself because of Frisk and the past humans..
In the Lost Soul battle, Asgore believes he is bound to his duties. His memories come back because of Frisk. You tell him that youāll save everyone, that you wonāt hurt him no matter what. Your gaze reminds him of humans past. He remembers you by this, his aggression fades, and the familiarity comes rushing back. Only because of the promise and hope that Frisk and the other humans gave him, does Asgore have hope for the future, and itās this hope that allows him to drop the war.
Was he right in fearing the surface? In the pacifist ending monsters seem to have found peace with the humans, even if Frisk is not their ambassador, so it seems that his fears were in some way unfounded. That being said, his hesitancy was not a bad thing, considering the strength of humans and how allowing time for both sides to calm down was a good thing, but his fears would have led to an unnecessary war.
Asgore compromised his morals, while Toriel could not see hers bend. Toriel ultimately failed in trying to stop the humans before they reached Asgore and accomplished nothing in the Ruins, and while the six souls Asgore collected were useful, in the end his dogma of war wasnāt actually needed.
Imagine the squad (Alphys, Undyne, Toriel, Asgore, Papyrus, Frisk, Flowey and Sans) who have a picnic all together in a post-pacifist story and Frisk, speaking to Sans, calling him accidentally (unconsciously?) "dad"? How Sans, Frisk and the other would react to this word?
I actually head canon that Frisk never calls Sans āDadā for their entire life, even when the sentiment is mostly (letās sayā¦ 70%) there. I also head canon that Sans doesnāt say āI love youā to them for at least another 10 years, and itās the begrudging-est, most coughed up phrase when he finally does.
And Iāve talked before about the Sans/Asgore two half dads scenario going on.
But Iāll indulge this thought. (I forgot to include Flowey though, oops!)
ā¦āAccidentally,ā though. Ha, thatās a good one.
Later in a private moment, away from the others, Sans finally approaches Frisk. āso, uhā¦ whatās up with all the pater familiarity all of a sudden, buddo?ā
Frisk shrugs, āYouāre the closest thing to a father figure I have in my life.ā
Sans pauses. āthat isā¦ absolutely horrifying. ā¦for you, I mean. wow. sorry.ā
āYeah but itās okay.ā Frisk shuffles their feet in the grass. āAsgore didnāt seem to like it thoughā¦ā
āmaybe heās upset you didnāt ask him for the raisins. prune-ing is sorta his thing.ā
āā¦ā
āokay, okay. ā¦i canāt speak for him butā¦ look. we bothā we both really care about you, you know? seriously, no joke this time. but weāre not what you want us to be. we canāt beā well, i canāt, anyway. i dunno. maybeā¦ you could lay off the dad stuff?ā
āā¦Yeah. Sorry.ā
āsāokay. i promise, itās not you. itās me.ā
ā(Whā? A- are you friendzoning me?)ā
ābesides? a skeleton dad? probably a total DEADbeat! heh hehā¦ erm.ā
āā¦If you say so.ā
Itās getting super awkward, so he tousles Friskās hair and they go back to help the others pack up and go home.
((Overall, I think while Asgore is more open to the idea of a family, heās got the worse baggage. Sans is like āheck no thanks!ā to the idea of being anyoneās dad, but is less bothered when he actually gets called it. Both of them are laying awake in their respective beds that night thinking āwhat have I gotten myself into.ā))
Do you think Asgore has meta-knowledge? Based on how long he's lived, how he reacts to being told he's killed you before, and the fact he straight up destroys a part of your menu may hint at that possibility?
(Ahhhh sorry! I forgot this was in my drafts. ;; )
I think itās definitely possible! Thereās a lot of evidence for that in the game, with Asgore nodding when you tell him heās killed you X number of times before, and what he can do to your menu. And if other characters are slightly aware, like Gerson (who knows about your limitations), Alphys (with her theories on other dimensions), Sans (who knowsā¦ things), or possibly Gaster, they couldāve told him.Ā
But at the same time, I just never really took it that way? I feel like the reaction to you telling him heās killed you is more referencing the other children heās killed. I think if he knew about meta stuff, he wouldnāt bother fighting you in the first place, because heād know it was pointless.
And if another character had told him about meta-stuff, it doesnāt seem like heās felt pressed to do anything about it. His orders to Alphys are still to break the barrier, not to stop the anomaly or research the nature of their world, etc. It seems to me like all of his motives are still: Free the monsters from the Underground. If he knew about SAVEs and the player, I donāt think that would be his main priority, you know?
Asgoreās dialogue and character arc are focused on his relationship between himself and the human children, from Chara up to Frisk, his guilt and his anger and his feeling like he has no other options. Adding in his meta-knowledge seems to break that down a little. So I donāt think thereās any extra component to it in his mind besides him and a normal kid.
Iām really torn on how concretely I want to take the menu/fight interface. With someone like Sans, it seems like heās purposely exploiting its layout. Photoshop Flowey, of course, knows exactly what heās doing. But with Asgore it seems more like a representation of an option that is impossible in that moment.
Then you wonder, if itās not a real menu limitation, why other desperate monsters donāt ever attack you in the menu or dodge? Is Sans really the only one that is driven to the point where he doesnāt mind attacking you in a ādishonorableā way? All the other monsters are okay with taking fair turns? ā¦I guess I could believe that, actually. Theyāre nice even when itās not a good idea to be.
So I dunno. While thereās evidence that he might know stuff, I just donāt think that it makes sense for Asgoreās character arc.
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How do you think Toriel and Asgore would react if they find the relation between Flowey and Asriel?
Asgore would be a flurry of emotions, ranging from confusion to relief to sadness to anger, at both himself and Alphys and humans and the whole universe, but I think eventually heād settle down into only wanting to live with and love his son as he had before. It doesnāt seem like in the timelines where Flowey went to Asgore, that Asgore was going crazy trying to āsolveā things, but just care for and support his son in his new state. I donāt think heād ever totally believe that Flowey canāt feel love or that heās no longer the person that was Asriel, but heād probably be more open to trying to understand things from Floweyās perspective.
If he were actually given the chance to have everything explained to him (and I mean all of it, including the suicide pact with Chara), heād do a good job of accepting it. Or at least, heād do better than I think a lot of people would expect. I think if thereās one thing Asgore gets, itās emotions. Heās so gentle and cares so much about the happiness of others, I think he has it in him to forgive and deal with things as they are. His focus would probably be on working through those old wounds with whatās left of his family.
When Asgore doesnāt know what else to do, he caves into what his rawest emotions say to do, and I think in this case it would be ācherish this flower.ā
Toriel would be the clinical one, wanting to know the scientific details of what happened, and what the state of things is, and how to go about fixing it. Sheās the one that snaps into problem-solving mode, almost at the expense of being comforting. But I think a lot of that laser-focus would come from avoiding her guilt and grief. Sheād have a lot of her own anger at herself for letting this come to happen to her children in the first place, but she likes to paper over that and pretend itās not there. Publicly, she says calmly, āweāll get through this. Weāll deal with it as it comes.ā Privately, sheās sobbing in the bathroom.
Toriel likes to act like Flowey IS Asriel. She hears what heās saying, but she thinks if she just keeps treating him like the person he was before, itāll come back to him eventually. For all that she acts like sheās making progress and working towards something, she doesnāt know what to do either. Her solution is only a half-solution, and ignores some of the reality of what Flowey is.
I wonder if theyād try to live together again for the sake of being there for their son, but that would be a mess in itself. You have Torielās still lingering hatred for Asgore, mixed with her own uncertainty, and I think that would make her exceptionally volatile and sensitive. And Asgore, whoās been wanting THIS for years now, all those years that he was alone and now heās got something that resembles his family again, but thereās still someone missing, all of them are hurting so bad, and itās just awful because it seems like the other two are aching to leave and be as far from him as possible.
I think Flowey really NEEDS to be around Frisk in order to not be a total shit, at least at first, so wherever Frisk goes, Flowey goes too. I think itād be healthier if Toriel and Asgore stayed or went back to being split, and Frisk/Flowey went back and forth between the two. Maybe with Friskās therapeutic presence, the four of them would be able to talk it out and get to something thatās okay. If it was just Asgore, Toriel, and Flowey, I really donāt know how well that would go.
Regarding that last ask: If you've killed Flowey the previous run, when mercy Asgore at the point where Flowey would have killed him in his speech Asgore admits that the human staying as a part of his family is just a fantasy. He'll say that he sees the player has a similar hope to the first human and that Asriel would have wanted you to go free. He'll then commit suicide so that the player can have his soul to free the monsters somehow from the outside. Flowey still destroys his soul though.
Itās been awhile since Iāve seen this dialogue, but itās only the last bit that I donāt remember. The player was supposed to free the monsters from the outside? I didnāt think there was any ending where it was (even theoretically) possible to kill Asgore and still free the Underground. Kinda like if you doom Asgore, youāre also dooming everyone else along with him. Humans canāt absorb other human souls, so I wouldnāt think that would work. ...Iāll have to look that bit up again.
Asgore never really wanted the monsters to the return to the surface, according to the conversations he had with Gerson. Heād given up the belief that monsters could survive on the surface, thinking that humans would just kill them all eventually no matter what happened.
So maybe the better question than what Asgore wouldāve done if you just avoided him, is wondering what Asgore wouldāve done if you stayed permanently dead and became the last soul needed to go free. Would he actually have gone through with war, or continued to waffle and find some excuse not to destroy the Barrier?
Hello! I absolutely adore your undertale analysis', its absolutely wonderful to see someone seriously considering the themes and characters of the game! That being said regarding Asgore's character; I remember a piece of art that wondered why Frisk doesn't take his hand at the end to parallel the scene with Toriel. But I think that would have overrun the importance that Asgore pretty much gives Frisk every chance he can for them to run away from the fight before its too late.
Thatās a really good point!
And on top of it showcasing Asgore being willing (or even hoping) to put off your fight, it also emphasizes that your progression at this point of the game is your own. Whether itās pacifist run or genocide run, YOUāRE the one pressing forward. Youāre encouraged in all kinds of runs to just give up and be satisfied with what you have. But itās that need to keep pushing the plot ahead that causes the ending, whether itās good or bad. None of the characters ever drag you there against your will.
It does make me wonder though, what Asgore wouldāve done if you totally just left him at the Barrier saying āuh yeah I got something to do first hold onā and then went to chill with the skelebros and Undyne for the rest of your life. I donāt imagine he ever wouldāve come after you, but I wonder what the rest of the Underground wouldāve thought about that.
I do think itās interesting that he spares you until the fight begins, at which point he becomes so intent on ending things then and there that you canāt Mercy him at all. Iām not sure I get why it takes hitting him in the nose a few times to get him to finally consider letting you stay- it seems he was already trying to encourage you to take that option from the beginning.
I guess from his point of view, he doesnāt want to make a decision. It has to be either all sparing or all killing. And waiting for you to do errands and pretending to look the other way, to him, doesnāt count as having to decide one way or the other yet.
