Scriv

this is the one question that’s been on my mind since the dirtifiers.

upon thinking about it, i decided that, yes, she is; she seems to never falter, successfully leading multiple lives, deceiving entire groups of people at the same time, being able to assume another identity without doubt within a matter of seconds.

i even considered the concept that lila’s wish was to gain humanity, trading marinette’s in return.

however, i leaned more into the fact that she called kagami her sister, and tomoe her mother. initially, that was what made me consider her a senti-being, as felix refers to other sentimonsters as his siblings. but her being a senti-being didn’t feel right—why would tomoe bring her into existence?

assuming that she truly is in relation to tomoe, i looked into japanese cultures tying to perfection (kagami) and deception (lila). tomoe’s peacock holder design having that symbol on her stomach reminded me of the yin yang symbol, and, in turn, made me consider the balance that lila and kagami might represent.

in japanese culture, there’s a ‘social’ balance containing deception and perfection, being tatemae & honne.

honne represents one’s true feelings and desires, whereas tatemae represents society’s standards within people’s actions; socially respectable behaviour, politeness. essentially an acceptable form of deception.

whilst honne represents perfection, which should be kagami, i realised it was much more similar to lila—yes, she deceives and acts to impress people, but from an analytic and outsider perspective, her desires are abundantly clear.

to me, tatemae represented kagami over lila because of the fact that her existence is solely to impress tomoe. the haiku spoken when she was brought into existence stating ‘dragon above men’ suggested not only hierarchy, but performance to me. she is a dragon (perfect being) above men (humanity, the audience), performing for society’s adoration.

to amplify kagami representing tatemae, i noted that her ryuko design was similar to the principals of kintsugi—a concept which means to ‘honour deception’. in the art of kintsugi, if pottery were to break, it would be fixed in highlighting the cracks with gold instead of trying to repair it and make it appear as if it were never broken, therefore embracing the piece’s flaws, and honouring the break, noting it as part of the piece’s journey. this represents kagami because, yes, her existence was to deceive, however she gained control of her own life. whilst deception is inherently imperfection, kagami honoured the dragon miraculous being the embodiment of perfection, gaining the gold highlights in her design as if to pay respect to the fact that she overcame her own flaws and refused to represent deception.

this made me think about the parts of her haiku, ‘mirror’s reflection’, and, ‘diamond made into a girl’.

talking from a literal sense, this should mean that kagami, the dragon above men, is looking into a mirror (the balance that her and lila hold), and seeing the ‘diamond made into a girl’. this further solidifies the theory that kagami and lila balance each other out.

kagami is a dragon above men, symbolising the deceit that she will perform in her life to satisfy her mother. however, she turns on that, embracing the dragon miraculous and gaining control of her own life. she becomes perfection.

lila is a diamond made into a girl, symbolising the perfection that she should hold as a diamond. however, diamonds represent clarity—in turn, truth. truth is the one thing lila has never embodied, successfully becoming deception instead of perfection.

this leads me to believe that lila is a human, not a senti-being, because there is nothing about her that celebrates or acknowledges her shift; as a human, she is (quoting steven universe), expected to change and grow. this contradicts (and successfully ‘mirrors’) kagami’s entire existence as a senti-being. considering they are one another’s reflection in a mirror, they are the opposite of each other—existing to craft one’s self, and existing as a self that somebody else desires.

in conclusion, i believe that lila is not a senti-being because she, simply, exists. kagami is crafted to be her antithesis—suggesting that lila is a human because kagami is not.

so who is lila to tomoe?

very simply, i believe that lila is tomoe’s blood daughter. we know that tomoe hates men, but we don’t know why.

it’s acceptable to believe that tomoe had fallen inlove with a man and conceived lila, however, upon realising that lila was not the perfect daughter tomoe had wished for, she ignorantly blamed lila’s father, and began to see *all* men as imperfect, leading to her creating kagami with the peacock miraculous to embody perfection in spite of men.

this is further implied because we’ve never seen lila’s father, nor have we seen her lie about having one.

(adding on my own additional options;

Tomoe fell in love with a man, but was unaware that he already had a daughter: Lila. Tomoe wasn’t thrilled, but decided to give the child a chance, only to be thoroughly disappointed by her. idk the man died, leaving Lila, but Tomoe didn’t see her as being acceptable to carry on the Tsurugi legacy, and created Kagami; someone who’s virtually a clone of Tomoe, who fits her definition of perfection

or

the man in question created Lila as a “gift” for Tomoe; like realistically the man would have to be someone of status, and he probably had ties to Gabriel. Tomoe finds that the man’s idea of perfection was very different from hers; she created Kagami to prove a point, not realizing how the miraculous would affect her. The man did genuinely create Lila out of love, and it caught up to him, killing him. Because Tomoe wanted nothing to do with Lila, she went into the foster care system for a while, bouncing between families until Tomoe took her back.

just based on my observations:

Neither of your points actually prove anything. We've learned that the Miraculous holders can change their appearance at will and hide their identity that way (Cat Walker, Rena Furtive, Fury), so her revealing her identity wouldn't actually be that bad unless you're artificially afflicting characters with the Stupid Virus.

As for her and Audrey bonding over being terrible people, Marinette actively encouraged them to do that, so ????

like I do get what you’re saying from a storytelling perspective, and how other characters and circumstances don’t work with what I said

There were definitely things included later on into the show that could’ve changed Chloé’s arc/circumstance, but these elements (like changing appearances) weren’t introduced until S4. Looking back on it, there are definitely ways that the story could theoretically be revised knowing what we do now. Imo however, because these weren’t introduced during Queen Bee’s appearances, they don’t really work in this argument; Chloé wouldn’t know about this, let alone Ladybug (who knows if Fu even knew).

but what I was getting as was that the writers made the decision to have Chloé reveal her identity, which would’ve led to some sort of consequence needing to be written later on

In Chloé’s case it was that she lost the miraculous; in Alya’s case, she had to go into hiding. These were writing choices made, not taking into account the character dynamics/relationships

talking about it from a storytelling perspective, her revealing her identity did make her a target to Hawk Moth, similarly to what happened to Alya; I do think this is where Marinette’s own bias comes in.

Alya is her best friend and someone she trusts, so she believes Alya will be responsible with permanently keeping the miraculous. On the contrary, Chloé regularly bullied Marinette; it does make sense that Marinette wouldn’t trust Chloé to handle that.

Another story element that I do feel is important is who the guardians were. With Chloé, Master Fu was the guardian, and requested that Ladybug bring back the miraculous after they were used. With Alya, Marinette was the guardian, meaning that she was able to make her own decisions regarding the miraculous, and no longer had to act as a middle-man.

with the Audrey-Chloé conversation, the writers chose to have them bond over sharing the same personality (and also chose to write Marinette to encourage it)

The writers choosing to include them bonding over it was intentional; they wanted to show that Chloé still was a bully, regardless of getting the miraculous.

Kagami also reveals herself pretty much instantly in Ikari Gozen, so that kind of makes 'Chloé reveals herself' a moot point. Nothing ever came from Kagami revealing herself.

Audrey and Chloé bonding: In any sane narrative the protagonist actively encouraging someone to be *worse* to obtain the love of an abusive parent would be treated as a point of failure for the protagonist that foreshadows a future lesson for the protagonist.

I still do stand by the writers having a set intention with Chloé as a character, but I do agree that they handled her as a character very poorly. While I personally don’t care whether she gets a redemption or becomes more of an antagonist going forward, a big part of me wishes that they actually chose to explore more of what makes Chloé be Chloé (if that makes sense)

I’m not going to defend the quality of the writing, or list things I wish they did, because what has happened has already happened. I do want to clarify that my original post is in no way defending the writing, but just stating what happened objectively. I’ve said this a few times in the past, but I do hope Chloé as a character gets the same level of depth and attention as other characters have gotten in S6.

Similarly to the Chloé vs Alya example in my previous reply, Chloé, Alya, and Kagami all have a different set of consequences for their identities; Chloé loses the miraculous, Alya had to go into hiding, and Kagami has to actively deal with her mother + risk the miraculous being stolen.

usually when I see things like this, it’s related to a different character having a different arc than Chloé; ofc people are free to dislike how Chloé was handled, and dislike how downplayed the emotional/psychological abuse she faced (and critique the writing), but it doesn’t change that Chloé was written the way she was. Unfortunately for Chloé, there never was a “switch up” on her getting a redemption; I highly doubt it was ever meant to happen, even if the writing pointed in that direction

again, I really do not like the writing for Chloé; there was so much that could’ve been done, and her in S2 is when I found her to be the most interesting. S3-5 she genuinely annoyed me because of the constant “DADDY!” thing, but from what we’ve seen in S6, I do enjoy her there.

I really hope that she gets more development, whether that be some form of redemption or retribution, or if it’s her becoming a genuine threat.

I do agree that because of how the writing panned out, it served a very poor message, and I do understand why the Chloé fanbase hate how it was handled.

in my SentiCats AU (which i swear im working on trust!!) I’m reworking Chloé in a way where she does want to become good on her own accord, and where she’s aware of her family’s abuse towards her

I'd also argue against the idea she was pre-planned actually. Since the earliest storyboards we have are from 2018, the same year that S3 aired. More likely that was when she was introduced conceptually. Season 4 didn't drop until 2021 so there's plenty of room for her existence to be fleshed out in there. I'd say all those storyboards do is argue against the idea that she was made *in response to* people's reactions to the end of S3. Her being in response to people's reactions to S1 and S2 is entirely valid still.

It is always crucial to remember that ML wasn't cleared for 5 seasons out the gate. It got one season, then two more, then two more, then three more, and now 2 after that. Having a solid outline of your 4th season to be aired in 6-7yrs time while writing a show that may not even make it to 3 is generally not how things are done.

*waves at Legend of Korra* There's another show that suffered hugely from the piecemeal seasoning. They were given one season. They wrote a one season plot. Then bam, they got 3 more seasons so they had to rewind Korra's development and start stapling on ideas to fill up the space. I'm not here hash out the merits of the final product but you can't miss the disconnect without being blind.

And again, for me, it doesn't even have to do with redeeming Chloe. She could be pitching a fit as she's taken away from Andre/Audrey/Noe. People in abusive situations do that. Going back to the situation, or another similar one, is EXTREMELY common. It's about showing the *audience* that what happened to her is abuse, and showing them she deserves help(like all children do) and what form that help *can* take.

tbh the only reason I’d assume that the show has a general concept for seasons that haven’t aired, and won’t for a few years, is because Astruc has said that there’s enough material/story to cover 14+ seasons. I do get what you’re saying about there being time to change certain story elements because of how long the production process can be/is.

with TLoK, I feel like the seasons work out better as standalone pieces of media because of the way they were greenlit; there’s definitely an attempt at cohesiveness, but sometimes they did backpedal on certain elements (still love the show fr though haha)

i’ve been talking with a few other people about what we want to see happen with Chloé; given how it was laid out that Noé and Audrey are using her like a pawn, there’s a possibility that she’ll get some sort of development

whether that’s as an antagonist or starting the road to a redemption, who knows (let’s be real though it’s probably going to be the first one 😔)

realistically, there’s still so much of Chloé as a character that can be explored, and I really hope that some of the other writers try to fight in favor of giving Chloé development

S2 started airing in December of 2016, finishing in November of 2018, which is when Sole Crusher was locked (aka officially written and finished) (locked November 9th)

Miracle Queen would’ve started production on September 9th, which would’ve been after Santa Claws (Christmas special i think?) had aired, but prior to the rest of S2 airing

Miracle Queen was locked on October 23rd, which would’ve been 2 days after S2 started airing

so everything in S2 would’ve led up to S3, and there wasn’t a switch up on Chloé as a character (is the writing of her “rise and fall” arc good? not really)

but this does show that Chloé wasn’t getting redeemed; if Miracle Queen existed prior to S2 airing, then her “downfall” had been planned from around the time of S2 being written

it also shows that Zoé was already a character that had existed, and that she wasn’t meant to be a “Chloé replacement” (was her writing good? meh. keep in mind that i am a Zoé fan/stan)

So general timeline:

First episode of S2 to be released was Santa Claws on December 11th 2016 (French Dub)

First version of Miracle Queen written September 5th, followed by a second version on October 12th

S2 officially starts airing on October 21st, 2017, with the Spanish Dub of The Collector

locked version (final version) of Miracle Queen was done on October 23rd, all in 2017

First version of Sole Crusher was written September 14th, 2018, followed by a second version on October 9th, 2018

Last episode of S2 released on November 3rd, 2018 (Swiss-French Dub)

Final version of Sole Crusher is locked on November 9th, 2018

S3 started on December 1st, 2018 (Spanish Dub) with the release of Chameleon