hi, it's me, nice to meet you ..

Dean finds that he likes the straightforwardness and abruptness. Sure there was, "Are you allergic to straight answers, you son of a bitch?" in early days, but then there was also delightfully dry, one-word responses like this:

When Dean conceptualized a "perfect partner," it was this abstract notion of "someone just like me that knows all my interests," or the culturally sanctioned "apple pie ideal/white picket fence/Carmen-type El Sol"

And then comes in Cas with his brisk and straightforward manner of speaking, bordering on rude, and Dean finds it supremely comforting in a completely unexpected way and it's so so so special to me how they clicked and--

SAM takes the gas pump out of the IMPALA. DEAN walks to the front of the car, where CASTIEL is reading a newspaper. DEAN What's the word, Cas? CASTIEL It's a shortened version of my name. DEAN Yes, it is. I meant what's the word on the Word? Any, uh, tablet chatter on angel radio? CASTIEL Oh, I couldn't say. I turned that off.

I love this interaction and I think one of the reasons why Dean is so charmed by Cas's mannerisms and way of speaking is because he always engages Dean with genuine sincerity and Dean is used to a lot of his jokes and asides and observations going ignored or being met with side eye but Cas always tries to meet him where he's at.

SPN 13x14, Good Intentions

DEAN laughs at GOG and MAGOG who are dressed in armour and loincloths. CASTIEL This is serious. DEAN [stifles laugh] Yeah, no, no, I-I-I know. But… they’re wearing—they’re wearing loincloths. CASTIEL Dean.

***

GOG and MAGOG keep arguing. DEAN and CASTIEL look on in confusion. DEAN W—what now? CASTIEL Uh, they’re… arguing. DEAN Ah. [jokingly] Ask ‘em where they got their loincloths. CASTIEL Dean.

Also just for fun, from 13x16:

DEAN: So, Daph, I usually don't have to do this, but what do you look for in a guy?

DAPHNE: Oh, I don't know. Strong, sincere… and an ascot wouldn't hurt.

///

Interesting thought. I can't remember if it was you that said this, but there's something interesting too, in Bobby's forward-motion. He doesn't really pause to drown in the grief. Like so many others, he's very very, “What's next?" When Ellen and Jo are dying, he's firm: “Okay. Copy that. So now we figure out what we do next. [...] I said, what do we do next, Dean?“

I think we see this too when Bobby is faced with Dean's devastating depression in season 7. He's never seen Dean in that kind of grief, so he's horrified, he comes on too strong. “Oh, you poor, sorry... You're not a person. / Now, you find your reasons to get back in the game. I don't care if it's love or spite or a ten-dollar bet. I've been to enough funerals. I mean it. You die before me, and I'll kill you."

And maybe it's not fair to compare the two, but I thought about Millie Winchester. When John comes home from the war, she welcomes him, she obviously loves him tremendously, but he's sitting in her garage looking agonized, and she immediately goes to: “So, what's next for you, kiddo?" He hasn't been home two hours, and Millie is already working in her garage, and she's already pushing.

And I feel like Bobby can tend to be that way, too. it's a sense of control, it's reacting to terrible things and trying to remain standing. Often, it's grief in motion.

And honestly, this is something John and Bobby both bequeathed to them. Dean embodies it when faced with Sam's terrible grief over Jess. Later, Sam tries to push them forward when Dean's sideswiped by (another) Cas death.

[x]

No I don’t think Jensen is a homophobe and no I don’t think he hates Destiel. I’m just slightly annoyed how it’s treated as a fanon thing when it was literally used in canon in the show, so it does feel a bit invalidating to hear it treated like that. And maybe that’s just him not watching the show or him not remembering things or not seeing what’s right in front of him so I don’t take it too seriously, it’s just a bit annoying. Anyway that’s all I had say for a moment

I’m just slightly annoyed how it’s treated as a fanon thing when it was literally used in canon in the show, so it does feel a bit invalidating to hear it treated like that.

First, I appreciate your feelings and it is very close to how I feel. So thanks for that. I really get frustrated and feel invalidated with people’s attitudes of “shut up and get over it”. So, I just don’t express myself unless someone brings it up.

Dean, grieving for Cas, hurting in every cell. Dean, who was parentified at the age of 4. And he's expected to instantly love and nurture this child who is effectively a nuke that may or may not go off, may or may not destroy the world. It's not about Jack being automatically evil, it's about that he was dangerous. He was objectively dangerous, and the text showed us he was dangerous and yet still, Dean is somehow in the wrong.

His grief and hurt and anger over losing Cas was not wrong. Just like his grief and hurt and anger over losing Mary, after Cas lied to him, for Jack, was not wrong.

It is a testament to just how loving and forgiving Dean is he overcame all that and gave Jack a chance, his heart is that huge, and yet still, 6 years after spn ended, we are stuck with the fandom trope that denies how big-hearted and loving and forgiving and open-hearted Dean is. That gets erased. In the same breath that people expect him to just accept Jack.

There were expectations and wishes for Dean to show his feelings for Cas more often in the same breath people backlashed on Dean for doing it.

Oh no Dean watch out, you'll turn out like John.

ftr this is something I always pushed back on, even when I was defending the dabb era intentions. I had to fight all during Dabb era against fandom for Dean's rights to have his feelings and be in his feelings at all. This was a fandom problem to me, not something I thought canon was intentionally trying to push but now I have more doubts and a bone to pick with what was in Dabb's head about Dean.

The damage is done. These ideas about Dean are popularized.

What I thought while it was airing was that depiction=/=endorsement and Dean seemed sympathetically depicted, to me (but perhaps because I am inclined to have empathy for Dean, so of course I will feel for him and see it as sympathetic depiction) and thought the point was canon was trying to make was being internally critical how Dean's grief/anger was being treated within the familial unit. The text was letting Dean express his justified anger and his grief--but then there really was no payoff except the concept Dean needs to change. Cas did express somewhat why he was so heedless in his fixation on protecting Jack at all costs, and he did apologize, but then he just repeated the same pattern again. Cas did in late S15 have realizations that he was already wanted, already loved, already needed, not just because of Jack being the glue, that Cas was already loved and wanted for himself--and he expressed that to Jack, not Dean. Cas's confession in 15.18 is about the love he feels for Dean and about Dean's self perception and it's good he said it.

But when everyone around Dean including Cas was reinforcing the idea that Dean was too angry--that required more addressment. And there were some truths about himself Cas needed to say to Dean, about his own insecurities, his own stubbornness, his own desperation, that led him to push Dean way over and over while he ran after Jack.

DEATH: Even if I remove Dean from the playing field, we're still left with you, loyal, dogged Sam, who I suspect will never rest until he sets his brother free. 10x23

///

GOD JACK: Cas needed to remain locked away, because The Empty can't come to Heaven, not again. We wouldn't survive it.

///

GOD JACK: So you see, Dean. I had to kill you. It had to be done. But I... couldn't do it myself. It... I just couldn't.

GOD JACK: So I put out the hit; any monster who could get it done gets entry to Heaven.

GOD JACK: And it worked. (JENNY: [No, I'm not the big boss.] I just called dibs.)

GOD JACK: After that, it was easy. Tell Bobby that Cas helped, let him give that some weight, some truth. You had to think Cas was saved. So you wouldn't meddle.

DEAN: Meddle in what?

#jack stuff #you made it loud #the empty is full and truly awake #all a god does is right off rival gods and #whatever is there#wants to come here#the empty#the shadow

#people don't believe in me dean #everything they believe in is over there #that's the problem #and you're -part- of that problem

#if jack is like dean at heart you guys just know he would -absolutely- go for the indirect kill

#that is dean's tried and true rationalization after all (and john's too) #his way to sidestep responsibility while manipulating the situation to get the thing done

#jack and dean

#you want [us] to want to kill amara because you don't want her to be killed? #so very john winchester and dean winchester of jack to take that route - you know????

I suppose this part is the Curse of John.

i.e. I don't want to do it, I CAN'T do it. So someone else will. Or the bomb will.

///

As for God!Jack lying about it all, I think of Cas's words from Gimme Shelter DEL scene:

JACK: It's so funny to hear them talk about God. They all think he's some great guy who looks out for them. CAS: The human version of God has always been better than the truth. JACK: So, it's okay that we're lying to them? CAS: This lie, it won't hurt them. It won't... It won't cause them pain or sadness. Sam and Dean taught me that some lies are necessary. 15x15

Not wanting to be lied to is a John trait, a Dean trait, a Jack trait. It's their natural defaults unless you're layering them in a TREMENDOUS amount of stress.

The above is so flying in the face of that.

But anyway, I'm thinking re: above Jack'd probably be cool lying to Dean and treating Dean like a flawed sheep who belongs grazing in the far field, who is in no pain over there because of Jack's lies. Most importantly, Dean doesn't belong in the big, important war effort.

Which would be season 6 for Dean all over again too, if you squint:

///

And yes, re: above: this line is basically Cas saying he learned from Sam and Dean's the hunting company line of "don't reveal the truth to the civilians." That's it.

But the "Sam and Dean taught me" throughline comes off disingenuous somehow, like very writer-talking-to-the-audience level of Trite, because Cas learned that from Heaven.

It's Cas's whole arc, dealing with Heaven's company lines and disillusionment and disappointment and trying to LIVE in the world and MAKE his own way. For better or for worse.

///

CAS: What is so worth saving? I see nothing but pain here. I see inside you. I see your guilt, your anger, confusion. In paradise, all is forgiven. You'll be at peace. Even with Sam.

DEAN: You can take your peace... and shove it up your lily-white ass. 'Cause I'll take the pain and the guilt. 4x22

///

And I get it, season 15.

I see the appeal of making Dean and Cas backslide and turns their backs on everything They've Ever Jointly Valued. it's actually kind of a cool idea for them to lose their way, because especially together, they're often the Metaphorical Wayfinders, North Stars who constantly balance Faith and Lost Causes and Safety. It's DEVASTATING for them to go the wrong way. (SEE Dean 15x18: "I just led us into another trap!")

He lost his gut instinct, the ONE thing he's always been able to rely upon! (Like how Mary lamented her loss of will in season 12.)

In their grief, Cas backslides to capital D Destiny, and Dean is sacrificing people for the big R Revenge.

Dean told Cas why didn't you stick to the damn plan, and now Cas is Sticking to Billie's Plan, and Dean is ALSO lip-servicing that Billie Makes Sense and so her Plan Also Makes Sense.

Dean meanwhile is crowing about this idea of a blood-soaked "freedom" because he "doesn't feel alive," or something. Which is, well. It's season 4 Cas really, Dean is become a soldier so embedded in Heaven's machinery he's lost his sense of right and wrong. Again, which results in a loss of his gut instinct.

(ECHO S9-10, his despair at making the wrong call.)

DEAN: [DEAN struggles to say the right thing. He finally just vents] Somebody changed the playbook, man, you know? It's like what -- what -- what's right is wrong and what's wrong is more wrong 9x12

...

DEAN: Maybe I'm not ready to hunt. [Camera pulls back to show the pain in Dean’s expression and the unshed tears in his eyes.] [brokenly] But I am just trying to do the right thing, man, 'cause I'm so sick and tired of doing the wrong one. 10x04

I think too of

DEAN: You spineless... soulless son of a bitch. What do you care about dying? You're already dead. We're done. 4x22

The two most anti-plan guys are suddenly tipping their drinks together and all about: Plan, plan, plan.

//////////////////////////////////

But thing is. That's a HUGE theme to bring up so late in the game with JUST a few episodes to go, and so it feels like an about-face and feels more like just killing Dean and Cas off and killing off their values at the same time. Dean killing Death as an answer, and Cas telling Jack he's not a story fall too weakly, and too late.

Reminds me of Tessa's about-face and death in season 9.

And I think that's why my brain CHEWS on season 15 constantly, because shipping aside, it's a huge theme lobbed up there for its most critical characters, but with NO follow-through.

This line rings hollow:

JACK: But I learned from you and my mother and Castiel that... when people have to be their best... they can be. And that's what to believe in. 15x19

Because season 15 CHALLENGED that. It showed up a hideous Dean and Cas. Which is why relaunching with SPNwin was such a good idea, you know? Healing the ugliness of John Winchester and such. I'd have loved to see even a future (past?) Dean or Cas challenge himself (themselves?) on these themes.

I’m going to try and answer this as politely as possible.

If you do something wrong, and you apologize, and you sincerely mean it, you don’t try and shift the blame on someone else and try and throw them under the bus. That is not how accountability works.

Also, when you make a mistake, and you sincerely feel bad about it, you don’t continue the same behavior over and over. You don’t continue the wrongdoings and also expect (and incite) your fan base to pick up their torches right along with you.

reasons he gave included how tired he was, how he had had nothing to eat (though he did mention specifically having started drinking at dinner, so idk how that works), how fans at the bar kept buying him drinks, how he probably thought he had been jumped, etc etc etc, and then, out of nowhere, also suggested that he may have been drugged, that who knows! maybe he wasn't even drunk, maybe it was some other substance, who can say!

so any "I don't want to make excuses" things or "taking ownership" he may have said before or after that list of reasons he gives for why his behavior should be excused... can't be taken seriously

also he said in the podcast that he hadn't had a drink since, and the podcast was released September 2020, but he used having been drinking as the reason for the PrequelGate events, so that seems to have been shortlived

later in the same interview Jared mentions that the people involved who he assaulted at what he admits is his bar said they know it wasn't bormal for him, were like, maybe you were drugged, etc

buuuuuutttttt all evidence shows they wanted to press charges. reports from the night say that the cops asked if they wanted to press charges and they said yes. it's why he was booked. and his charges were eventually "deferred," in 2021 (again, well after this podcast interview) but not from what i can tell because the people assaulted just were so moved by how badly Jared felt about it. the couet records show that the trial date just kept moving because of covid and so the charges were ultimately let go because they were minor misdemeanors

so ok fair he addresses the victims, but his story does not match any official documents i'm seeing, and he still did not take ownership of what happened and just kept insisting that he must have been drugged

I’m look for a link to the below reference. Was it mentioned in a panel discussion or something else? Please help!

I’m including a 🦄 for good will

It's from here:

Do you think this is a valid criticism of Jensen as far as setting a tone towards treatment towards destiel shippers or are they going too far with putting so much of it on him?

I’m not going to pretend he hasn’t said things over the years that aren’t the best or phrased things in a way that were less than ideal.

However, with that being said… blaming everything on him and making it sound as if he single handedly created the friction in the fandom is being completely overdramatic and misguided. And calling him a homophobic POS is fucking ridiculous.

As I’ve said many, many times - people have every right to be hurt, and every right to express themselves, but being a complete asshole about it is not the way to go.

I’ve included more of her rant than you initially linked (which was the second tweet down) so people can see the unhingeness of it all.

I agree with you. Making room for people to feel hurt or sad doesn't mean having to tolerate these extreme bad faith takes against Jensen. It doesn't mean condoning these kinds of bad takes.

Couple of things I want to elaborate on--firstly, even in media with loudly openly queer romances and characters, the homophobes show up and start trolling. Secondly, Misha's very open and loud support for queer Cas in love with Dean did absolutely nothing to shut down the denialism about queer Cas or slow down the hatred targeting the ship and shippers. Thirdly, Jensen is allowed his opinions on a character he plays, Jensen said nothing at purcon hurtful or attacking anyone for having their view, he didn't say anything vitriolic, while he was being badgered in person. Fourthly, blaming him for hateful people existing is about the same as Misha antis who claim his support of queer Cas is responsible for ruining the fandom etc.

There is no stopping the hate trolls.

Every fandom. EVERY FANDOM.

Some people on the destiel side claimed for years that if only we had this or that thing, the hate would stop. Guess what, we got some of those things.

What happened? The hate just kept on going.

Some people even started rooting for canon destiel just to shut the antis up.

Not because they wanted to see it. Not because they felt it made sense for the characters or story. Not for representation. No, they just wanted to just the antis up.

That thread is fully off the rails and it is malicious and it insinuates anyone who doesn't have an issue with Jensen is part of the problem too, it throws insinuations on destiel shippers who are vocal and supportive of queer Cas and destiel lenses while we put our foot down about the hatred flung at Jensen.

I also fail to see how anything he said at purcon was "homophobic rhetoric." That is not a reasonable assessment of what happened whatsoever.

But hey if that account is going to blame Jensen for making antidestiels behave like dicks on the internet

I'm allowed to repeat something I said recently, how some people in the destiel lane are a harm to it and to its goals and they help make the destiel lane less welcoming, not more welcoming, and are harming good faith relations with Jensen and Misha, and adding to the hurt destiel shippers have to bear.

They are talking about Jensen's power on the show, but Misha said that if Jensen had been against the confession scene, it wouldn't have happened. I mean, Dean doesn't even say anything in this scene, but Jensen's approval was still important...

That’s not about “power”. That’s about a writer and a fellow actor respecting Jensen’s feelings about a big shift in another character’s relationship with his character. It was about professional courtesy and respecting his feelings. His approval was important but it wasn’t about power.

If Jensen had that much power, he wouldn’t have had to fight to have Dean die standing up. If he had that much power, Dean wouldn’t have died and Jensen wouldn’t have been told take or leave it.

That's a pretty clear double standard. It feels like some fans stop treating him as a person and start treating him as a tool whose purpose is to validate a particular fandom narrative and feelings which he is not obliged to do at all. (and that's not only with some destiel btw, J1/J2 stans are also treating Jensen like that)

What makes this even stranger is that there are already cast members like Misha, who openly engage with destiel from a shipping perspective. Fans who want that kind of discussion already have someone willing to provide it. Yet some still seem determined to get Jensen to give a different answer than the one he's consistently given for years and every time they act so surprised that he is not suddenly a destiel shipper that they deem it a personal insult and happily jump on a hate bandwagon.

And the wildest part is that Jensen didn't condemn the ship. He doesn't hate it or tell fans to stop creating content or shipping it. Quite the opposite. His position has basically been: "You're free to interpret the characters however you want, create whatever you want and enjoy fandom however you want." And some still behave like he personally killed their puppy🙄

Nobody is trying to take your ship away from you. Write and create whatever you want. Most importantly have fun while doing it. Don't make it into statement on queer people's rights in society (which is ridiculous, let's be real, those issues are much more complicated than an opinion about popular ship in a fandom). And for the love of God don't be nasty to an actor. The things I've seen some "fans" write about Jensen on X are genuinely awful bordering on defamation. And the sad part is that they collect so much likes which can harm his reputation…

In all fandom spaces, many fans tend to see the actors as extensions of themselves, their beliefs, their fantasies, or their perceptions. Unfortunately they also treat them as playthings expecting them to move and talk exactly how they want them to.

Another unfortunate circumstance is that the loudest most obnoxious of people in the fandom are the ones that seem to get their words taken seriously and as fact. Perhaps that’s why they shout so loudly. 🤷‍♀️

How do photographers not BEG Jensen to photograph him?

Jared is the biggest piece of shit

Yep, we know.

Someone sent me a clip the other day of it being retold at a Jtwo panel and Jensen being annoyed by how forceful that first pie was.

Listing all the things they were planning (trashing his apartment) makes me sad. Like I can see Jensen strewing clothes around and moving furniture, etc. but I can the other one actually breaking things and being more destructive.

"Directing television is very different than directing film. And with all credit to my wonderful friend, Mr. Speight, there. I've got a better answer for you. Here's the best answer for you. I watched Misha direct an episode. They shredded his script three times. He got pied in the face twice. Once so hard, I think they broke his nose.

Um, Jared was contemplating taking his [Misha] car and doing something with it, putting it on top, I think, using an industrial forklift and putting it on top of the stage, like on top of the building. Um, he was continuously tortured while doing this. And I think the nicest and politest answer I could give you to this is they didn't play pranks on me because I'd sue them. I'm a grown-up."

From: Patreon, Spn Then and Now, Bonus Clip