growing strong

point 1. “jon is not a man who would fall in love w a woman who has disrespected his father, his family, his home,HIS people”

.the only moment that dany references ned to jon is when she asks a rhetorical question about whether ned knew that robert tried to kill dany as a baby. this is a justified question to ask from dany’s POV. she doesn’t know ned stark. she does know that ned didn’t abandon robert despite robert’s sanctioning of dany’s niece and nephew’s murders. 

jon is a man who would fall in love with a woman who disrespected his people. he fell in love with ygritte.

jon fell in love with ygritte after knowing she was a spearwife who murdered his night’s watch brothers. she murdered an innocent old man in front of him and jon continued loving her. ygritte raided villages as a wildling spearwife and while she saved gilly, she killed plenty of innocents. ygritte looked down on kneelers and what exactly do you think the north was? the first argument jon and ygritte have is her challenging his perception of the northern people who put up a wall to separate themselves from the wildings. 

and, dany has never in her life taken pleasure from burning someone alive. she’s murdered people just like jon, jaime, arya, everyone  has. but she has never taken pleasure from it. 

point 2. “jon is not a man dumb enough to look at the mistakes his brother made and continue to make those mistakes.”

robb marrying talisa/jeyne has zero similarities to jon falling for and allying with dany.

jon and dany’s alliance brings the north 64,000 warriors along with 2 dragons. the north has less than 10,000 men to defend it against cersei and against the white walkers. robb’s marriage to jeyne/talisa brought robb no advantages. in fact, he broke alliances for that marriage. jon has broken no promises. in fact, he’s secured the best possible way for the north to survive once the white walkers get there. as sansa said, the northern lords are weather vanes who shift every which way. once the white walkers show up on their doorstep and dany comes to protect their asses, what are the northern lords going to be but be grateful for their king saving them from inevitable doom?

point 3. “d&d are possibly the worst writers and have made grrm’s great story into a bad fanfiction. jon snow deserves better.”

finally, we can agree that d&d are not good writers. but they did not make grrm’s great story into a bad fanfiction because jon is falling for dany. grrm is 100% going to have jon and dany fall in love. accept it. or don’t. but it’s not fanfic because george is going to do the thing too. he’s 100% going to do it better and differently, but it’s happening.

1998′s book release of a clash of kings where dany was called the bride of fire juxtaposed with jon snow (who will likely be resurrected by fire in the books as he was in the show) told you where this was going. the vision where a flower growing in a chink of a wall of ice juxtaposed with dany’s third husband “the one to love” told you where this was going. 

as for jon snow deserving better, everyone has deserved better harkening back to season 2. jon’s canon characterization as the snarky, savvy, grey character he is hasn’t been seen except in rare moments. i won’t speak of the many other characters who also deserve better.

Some of the recent interviews that bust up this idea further that Jon and Dany is fanfiction from D&D’s heads:

It’s been foreshadowed over and over again, and those who know the books know it’s inevitable...but he [GRRM] did sort of say things that made it clear that the meeting and the convergence of Jon and Dany were sort of the point of the series. (Source)

“But he knew from the very beginning where he was driving and now we're starting to see that come to fruition. We know that it's circling tighter and tighter on Dany and Jon and their partnership is starting to form, you know, "fire and ice." I can't say much more about what [Martin] said about where we're going with Dany and Jon because that leaps ahead into the next season, but to me the revelation was that, at the time, we had a hundred characters and yet he knew it's about these two. (Source)

jon is ice and fire by himself (a well accepted idea that doesn’t need explanation)  

and, dany is also ice and fire by herself.

see below the cut.

i did a post a few weeks ago anticipating the rushed argument. i compared jon/dany and jon/ygritte’s screentime from first meeting to sex. as of that post, jon and dany had only shared one episode 7x03. jon and dany had 12:25 minutes of screen time developing their relationship in their first episode. jon and ygritte had 28:50 minutes from first meeting to the start of cave sex.

as of their first episode, jon and dany had 43% of the overall ST it took jon and ygritte to get from first meeting to cave sex.

this is the post i referenced above with a scene breakdown of 7x03 jon/dany and a breakdown of jon/ygritte from meeting to cave sex.

http://quististrepes.tumblr.com/post/163809892897/im-already-seeing-arguments-that-jon-and-dany

i stated then that i would update the screen time counts at the end of the season. and, i will. but, having watched jon and dany’s ST from 7x04 to 7x06, i feel confident that their screen time developing their relationship from first meeting to sex will be greater than the 28:50 minutes it took for jon/ygritte to get there.

i say this not as a way to put anyone down. i wanted to combat the false perception and people often use jon/ygritte as a relationship that took its time in comparison to jon/dany.

i see this chemistry. but i don’t want to see it.

despite the fact that chemistry is a creation by actors and/or direction, i will say that it is forced that the story is calling for two characters to be attracted to each other. i know that characters do things and react in ways because that’s where the plot is taking them, but that type of plot behavior is not forced at all.

While uncommon, Westeros’ noble families from the Starks to the Baratheons to the Lannisters to the Targaryens have had uncle/niece marriages and cousin marriages. None of these relationships are seen as taboo in Westeros. An uncle/niece marriage was proposed by Victarion for Asha (Yara in the show) in the recent pages for The Winds of Winter. And, it wasn’t shown as taboo, an abomination, or incest. There have been other posts swimming around with examples of the Stark girls who married their uncles, of Arianne Martell crushing on her uncle Oberyn, of Sansa being proposed to marry Robert Arryn, her first cousin. What IS taboo in Westeros is brother/sister and the only reason the Targs got away with it was because they had dragons and seen as above ordinary humans.

People shipping incest (I will unpack this below) in a fictional world has no bearing on real life. Let people ship what they want, especially if the relationships you’re complaining about are not taboo in that fictional world.  No one is telling you to ship what your society has socialized you to see as incest.

And, speaking of real life, to unpack incest in our world, did you know that Pakistani, Bangladeshi, Indian, and various North African, and Middle Eastern communities have cousin marriages? It’s not seen as taboo for those communities.  Did you know that avunculate marriages (uncle/niece and aunt/nephew) are considered in some societies as incest currently, but are legal or common in others? It’s legal in several countries such as Brazil, Malaysia, Australia, Finland, Russia, Argentina, the preferred union among certain Amazon tribes, and it still happens in South Indian communities?

So, people saying don’t ship incest and who’re going into inboxes to shame others for fictional shipping are attempting to impose their own societal standards onto a large international fandom community, some of whom have already said that cousin marriages occur in their communities. If you’re an American making these comments, please stop going into other people’s inboxes to shame them for fictional shipping.

This point is not really about fandom or incest shipping. This point is about the fact that people will have different perspectives based on culture. Your culture may say something is gross as you have been socialized to believe that, but imposing that belief like it’s the only right way and everyone else is gross is cultural imperialism and Americans do that way too much.

People still in South Indian communities in Andhra Pradesh, Karnataka, Tamil Nadu marry their nieces and their first cousins. These are adults marrying other adults. This 2015 reddit thread from the India subreddit has personal anecdotes and the lines between incest/non incest as told by actual people with knowledge of said communities which is sometimes more informative than data and wiki articles.

https://www.reddit.com/r/india/comments/3al39o/is_cousin_marriage_still_practiced_in_south_india/

for a good comparison, i had to pick a ship that met onscreen, developed onscreen, and had sex onscreen. preferably, this ship would be one with jon or dany. this ship had to be one where the progression to sex wasn’t seen as too quick by fandom. the show had to be invested in developing this relationship. dany/drogo is out for multiple reasons as is dany/daario. between jon/ygritte and robb/talisa, jon/ygritte is obviously the better choice for comparison as it includes jon and it was a popular ship whose progression to sex was hotly anticipated.

jon & ygritte from 1st meeting in 2X06 to start of cave sex in 3x05 is 28:50 minutes of screen time actually developing their relationship. 

(EDIT: i added 4:33 min i wrote down and didn’t add in for jon/ygritte)

as of 7x03, their first episode, jon & dany have had 12:25 minutes to specifically develop their relationship. i did not include the leaked episode. i will update this post at the end of the season.

see an exact breakdown by episode and criteria below the cut.