People scream “show don’t tell!” all the damn time, but the second a show actually DOES just show you stuff and make you use your brain to piece things together you scream “bad writing! Bad writing!”
Fuck you. You don’t want a story to “show don’t tell,” you’re literally angry they won’t just spoon feed you the answers on a silver platter.
^^^———
No worries, I got you covered! The Last Jedi is the best written Star Wars film to date because it’s the ONLY Star Wars film that actually contains a theme and message that it explores throughout the story.
Every character and plot point reinforces this theme and so much of The Last Jedi is about hammering home this theme to the audience… and the SW community didn’t want to engage with this and just wanted the same generic “obvious evil vs obvious good” story every other Star Wars film has been about for the past 50 years.
TLJ is the only Star Wars film that contains a theme and message other than generic evil vs. good?? Lmao. Me when I watched the first 6 SW films with my eyes closed and my fingers in my ears. I’m not arcane critical at all but if I were this would not be the take that convinced me otherwise
Alright then. What’s the theme of the first Star Wars film?
It’s quite literally indicated right in the title. The thematic question that The Phantom Menace asks is how do you contend against forces that you cannot fully see or understand? In your own words, every character and plot point reinforces this theme. The Gungans are overlooked by everyone only to end up being the unexpected force that secures Naboo’s victory. The Trade Federation is blind to the full threat that Queen Amidala poses because they have written her off as an unaggressive and pliable young leader. She herself poses as two separate characters and surprises everyone with what she has been organizing behind the scenes, doing her best to gain another vantage point from which to observe and operate because she understands that there are forces at work which are hidden from the Queen, and she wants to leverage that same advantage against her enemies. The Jedi too know that they are navigating in the dark; they understand that their vision is clouded and yet they are forced to make decisions they cannot know the outcome of in order to try to stave off the sinister forces at work. Did Qui-Gon make the right choice in insisting Anakin be trained? Has the threat been vanquished with Maul’s death, or does some phantom menace still work against them, out of sight? Like Padme, Palpatine himself conceals his true identity, posing as a good natured politician who worries for his people while pulling all the strings and orchestrating destruction from the shadows. How do you fight against what you cannot see?
All that said, the first 6 films are best viewed as a single story told in 6 parts, and the larger overarching themes are much better appreciated that way. TPM is mainly exposition. It’s like asking what the theme of arc 1 s1 of Arcane is. It’s not that there aren’t any themes there, but it’s more about asking questions than answering them, because the story has just barely begun. TLJ isn’t like that. It was written much more like a standalone film that happens to be part of a trilogy of movies. Rian Johnson had one movie to say what he wanted to say, not 6. This is not a critique, it is a fact; the creators have said that they were not given a planned out story to follow so much as a general idea of what the trilogy should be and do, and each director was allowed to realize his vision in his own way. And that doesn’t have to be a bad thing — I want to emphasize that I have no desire to critique TLJ here. My point is that comparisons between TPM and TLJ are not really even as they hold completely different positions in two narratives that were designed very differently. And yet, you asked me about TPM, which is thematically the weakest of the first 6 films because of what I just explained, and I was able to identify a very clear theme and message anyway. So I’m sure you won’t doubt that I can do the same for any of the other 5 films.
I’m not here to shit on TLJ. I just think that if you have to tear the other films down in order to prop it up, that’s not saying much.
Sigh….
I knew I should’ve specified the original first movie from the 70’s, not the technical first movie in the series.
I meant what is the theme of the original 1977 film.
And plot isn’t theme. If the theme of phantom menace is “how can you fight that which you cannot see” it does a terrible job of actually exploring that theme in a coherent way. Characters just being vague or cagey isn’t a theme. And if fighting what you cannot see is the theme, why does the film end on large flashy fight scenes? I never once felt that there was some sort of invisible force pulling the strings behind the scenes of that film. It’s not even the Force because we’re given scientific explanation for what the force is. That’s the opposite of keeping things hidden lol.
The Last Jedi, by comparison, is about learning from failure and growing into your potential. Poe’s attack on the dreadnaught sacrifices so many lives unnecessarily, so if he wants to lead the rebellion he must learn to appreciate the chain of command and respect orders to keep them safe. Finn and Rose’s plan to disable the tracker fails, and they must learn from their failure to make it right. Rey’s attempt to get Luke to rejoin the fight fails, and even her attempt to turn Kylo Ren to the light fails, so she must do what she can to fix it. The Jedi failed, as Yoda says. Luke fails to be a good teacher to Kylo and his moment of weakness sets all this in motion. Kylo must learn to let go of the past, and he fails st that TWICE. First when he won’t attack Leia, and second when he can’t give up the temptation of power and taking down Luke.
Examples of failure are EVERYWHERE in the film and it’s PALPABLE. And it’s explore through the characters. The heros succeed in the end because they LEARN from their failures, while the villains lose because they don’t learn. Snoke loses because he’s so overconfident in his abilities the idea of failure never even enters his mind. Kylo Ren fails because he can’t let go of trying to beat Luke and ends up wasting their time and energy and allowing the resistance to escape.
I can’t think of a theme for the first 1977 Star Wars. The closest I can think of is “trust your instincts not technology,” but that’s a VERY weak theme because it’s only referenced ONCE in the film. No other aspect of the movie touches upon on it.
And I refuse to look at all 6 original films as one cohesive story, because that’s not how they were written or made. They were made as individual movies and as such I treat them as individual narratives.
Look, Star Wars is fun. But it’s not DEEP. And out of all the films in the legacy lineup, the only one that I am confident they had more than just set pieces and plot for is The Last Jedi. Because Rian Johnson is a competent director. George Lucas is not. And neither is J.J.Abrams.
You can’t think what the theme of A New HOPE might be? There are actually a few that I can think of, but one of them is glaringly obvious…
The Phantom Menace does not end on flashy fight scenes. It ends on a shot of Palpatine’s ominous silhouette as the Jedi uncertainly discuss whether Maul’s death means the threat from the dark side has been defeated or not.
What you personally felt or did not feel has no bearing on what the film actually contains. Many people picked up on what the film was showing us. If you didn’t, that’s just fine. Your description of TLJ’s theme contains quite a lot of plot, too. Might be because themes are illustrated through the plot.
“The Last Jedi, by comparison, is about learning from failure and growing into your potential.” Sounds an awful lot like one of the themes of Empire Strikes Back. Funny.
You may “refuse” to look at the films a certain way, that’s your prerogative. That does not change the fact that yes, they were written as parts of a whole. At the very most you can make the argument that they were written as two separate trilogies, but that means you still have to consider them as 1 of 3 parts of that whole. If you’ve read or watched anything about George Lucas and how Star Wars was made you’d know that, but you’ve already indicated that you don’t respect him as a creator, so that’s fine. I disagree.
Star Wars absolutely IS deep. It is fun, and it is at times relatively simple, but it was made to communicate a profound message to the youth at a time when morale was low, and is based heavily on beliefs that Lucas held dear. You may choose to ignore all that and you may choose to disparage him as much as you like, but facts are facts. The information is there if you feel inclined to look into it.
But I don’t want to get distracted from the reason I replied to your post in the first place, which was because you made two claims that I wanted to refute. The first was that TLJ is the only Star Wars film that contains a theme and a message that is explored throughout the story. The second is that the Star Wars community didn’t like TLJ because they didn’t want to engage with this and just wanted a story that was about a generic good vs. evil conflict. I’ve addressed both of these claims to my satisfaction and now that I’ve said my piece I’m going to step away from this discussion. Thank you for engaging with me.
Why do people always walk away from a conversation just when it’s starting to get good?
You can’t just say the theme of the 1977 film is just “hope.” That’s nothing. And you can’t just say the phantom menace’s theme is… a phantom menace. That’s asinine. That’s not what themes are. That’s just using the title of the movie to describe the events of the movie.
Did you notice that I didn’t say that the theme of the last Jedi is there being a last Jedi?
And no, the phantom menace ends on a one on one duel with Darth Maul and a CGI landwar battle between droids and aliens. When I said the end of the film, I didn’t mean the literal last shot of the film. wtf?
The facts about George Lucas is that he’s a bad director. He can’t direct actors. And he doesn’t understand narrative plotting. Star Wars was going to be a failure if his wife hadn’t stepped in and edited it down and rearranged it so that it made cohesive sense. And he didn’t direct the sequels after that until Phantom Menace and that’s regarded as one of the worst films in the series. George had a vision, yes, but he’s not a genius. He was making shit up on the spot. Let’s be real here.
You still haven’t answered my question though… what is the theme of the 1977 film. That’s the one I wanted to talk about, and that’s the one you keep ignoring. What is the theme of that film? What is explored theori every character and villain and set piece that unifies it in a cohesive story? And don’t just say “it’s hope!” Cuz that’s nothing.
If you find people walking away mid-way through discussions to be a recurring event it might be time to consider that it's because you engage in those discussions in a disingenuous and bad faith manner.
The theme of A New Hope is Hope. And that theme is expressed so heavy-handedly that it even makes it to the title. The title of the movie doesn't dictate the theme, the theme dictates the title, and its ironic that A New Hope is the only title that is that direct about its theming and also the one film you seem to have the hardest time identifying a theme for. @trrenchertrash already told you the theme and you dismissed it as "nothing" because it doesn't suit your narrative. And not only have you completely dismissed it but you've also done so with no real rebuttal, just a rejection, which makes it impossible to engage with you in any meaningful way. But hey, I'll bite anyway.
If your issue with "hope" being the theme of the original Star Wars film is because you find it to be underdeveloped and simplistic, I would remind you that theme as a literary device is a central topic, subject, or message within a narrative (which the answer of "hope" covers) and is also often able to be expressed in a single word. In which case an argument that "hope" is too simplistic, implies a fundamental misunderstanding of literary theme and does not apply here. But i am also perfectly capable of providing you with a more complex interpretation of A New Hope's theming if that's your requirement.
The theme of A New Hope is not just hope, but the endurance of hope, even in the face of seemingly insurmountable odds and even after crushing losses, when it seems that all hope has been lost. The film has many instances of hope returning after seemingly having been lost but the most poignant follows the first and last major scenes in the movie. A New Hope opens with the interception of Leia's ship, the failure of her mission, her capture, the unveiling of an extremely formidable weapon, the destruction of an entire planet, and the lines "This is our most desperate hour. Help me Obi-Wan Kenobi. You're my only hope". So we open on a very dire note, and with only one avenue of salvation - Obi-Wan. But between this opening scene and the celebratory victory at the end of the movie, we lose that avenue - Leia's proclaimed only hope for the rebel alliance is lost, in the form of Obi-Wan's death. And yet the movie still ends in victory for the rebels. The Death Star is destroyed, Han Solo, Chewbacca, and Luke are new members of the rebel alliance, and even though the empire still exists, even though Alderaan and Obi-Wan are gone, there is still so much hope.
But please tell me how that is "nothing". You're entitled to dislike the theme, or even the entire movie, but to deny its existence only implicates your ability to identify what is frankly a glaringly obvious message, out of what is likely willful ignorance given your lack of struggle in identifying one for The Last Jedi.
As for the depth of Star Wars as a whole, George Lucas' competency or lack thereof as a director has little bearing on the messages his story contains. Star Wars is full of meaningful themes and messages throughout all its installations, including the endurance of hope, the power of will, faith in oneself and ones abilities, the importance and influence of immaterial forces, love, mercy, self-sacrifice, humility, the corrupting nature of power and also of fear, criticism of political systems, and so many more. You could write a PhD dissertation on the messages and lessons conveyed through the prequel era Jedi Order alone. Just because the themes aren't shrouded in layers and layers of complexity doesn't negate their value. Star Wars is meant to be an easily digestible and fun story for all ages. None of that makes it shallow in any sense.
I find assigning “hope” to the entirety of the movie to be “nothing” because hope as a concept is in EVERY movie and film and character and narrative. When there’s a fight, the hero hopes to win. When you’re at your lowest you hope things will turn around. As the villain is about to win we as an audience hope the heroes can defeat them. It’s such a BASIC concept of storytelling that to sum up ALL of Star Wars 1977 as just “enduring hope” is just so…. Childish and simple.
That’s like saying Lord of the Rings is about Love or something. Yes love plays a role in the film, but it’s not the films ultimate thesis and theme.
That’s why I’m grasping at something being a bigger and less ambiguous theme. And why I latched on to the concept of technology vs faith.
Throughout the film the Empire relies heavily on technology to get their way. And in the end battle sequence it’s Luke’s faith in the Force that saves them. That SHOULD be the theme of the film. It’s the climax of the film, it has some seeds planted earlier in the film, and it has a distinct message.
But it’s weak. Outside of being told what the force is, and a few moments of Luke learning about the force and using his instincts in training, it’s not expanded upon much (in the 1977 film).
I’m not acting in bad faith. I’m trying to get answers and I’m not getting them, or I’m getting dismissive ones or ones that don’t feel substantial enough.
You dismissed @trrenchertrash's argument with no counter-argument until just now when I called you out on it. Being dismissive in a discussion is a bad faith response. I can extend good will far enough to accept that it wasn't intentional but that doesnt absolve it of being in bad faith. The same way you have ignored an entire paragraph of my response, which i will simply repost again for you.
If your issue with "hope" being the theme of the original Star Wars film is because you find it to be underdeveloped and simplistic, I would remind you that theme as a literary device is a central topic, subject, or message within a narrative (which the answer of "hope" covers) and is also often able to be expressed in a single word. In which case an argument that "hope" is too simplistic, implies a fundamental misunderstanding of literary theme and does not apply here. ...
You don't have to like it, thats fine. You are entitled to your own opinions and tastes but to dismiss what is objectively there based on your own personal opinion is disingenuous. And Lord of the Rings is absolutely about love. It is not the only theme in Lord of the Rings but it is a main one, which is very in line with Tolkien's intent to portray his own Christian values in his story.
Additionally, the existence of a character feeling hope is not the same as having hope as a theme in a story. Lots of characters have hope for various different things in The Phantom Menace, and yet hope is still not a theme of that movie because thats not how themes work. Hope existing in a story is not the same as a story being about hope. Almost every film includes learning from failure as well. If characters got everything right the first time we'd be surrounded by some pretty thin plots. The premise even exists in A New Hope, with Luke failing to deflect shots from the combat remote in the beginning, to then successfully destroying the Death Star on the same premise. That doesn't make "learning from failure" a theme of A New Hope.
Technology vs faith is is a weak theme with little supporting evidence in the movie because its not actually a theme in that movie. I'm unsure why you're holding onto the premise despite having disproved it yourself. You are seeking complexity at the expense of understanding what is being shown to you.
... Just because the themes aren't shrouded in layers and layers of complexity doesn't negate their value. Star Wars is meant to be an easily digestible and fun story for all ages. None of that makes it shallow in any sense.
Again, you can dislike it, thats your prerogative, but your personal opinion does not equal an objective fact. I laid out the existence of hope as the theme of A New Hope and you ignored that to refer back to your position of "its too simplistic", completely dismissing that i had already addressed that point as well, which is, you guessed it, disingenuous.
I’m going to add to this that there are actually many stories that are notably devoid of hope. Many existentialist and nihilist works fall into this category, for a start. In fact, as I mentioned before, Star Wars was made specifically for American youth at a time when the social and political state of the nation was troubled, and feelings of hopelessness and futility pervaded the social climate. So it was very intentional on Lucas’s part that the theme of the story is hope. @sapphiresaphics if you think about it, you’re quite lucky that you feel that hope is too commonplace or widespread to be a legitimate theme. Star Wars 1977, as you call it, was so popular BECAUSE it was hopeful.
And just to reiterate, Star Wars was made for children. That doesn’t mean people of all ages can’t enjoy it, but yes. The theme of A New Hope IS very simple so that its target audience can understand it.
I cannot help but feel like you guys are romanticizing the series WAY more than is intended. George Lucas had no grand vision of trying to uplift the youth during political strife or anything like that. Stop conflating result with intentions.
Lucas was severely depressed and angry at the film industry at the time. He funded Star Wars on his own dime because he didn’t trust the studio system. He showed his cut of the film to his friends who all thought it was terrible. Many of the actors involved did not want to be part of it and thought it was going to be a flop. This notion that this was some grand vision from a grand person is romanticized myth making AFTER the fact. While he was making Star Wars Lucas has NO IDEA he was about to strike gold. He used Joseph Campbell’s mono-myth as a template for his story because he wasn’t really good at writing. He just wanted to make a space opera, during a time when nobody gave a shit shout space operas, it’s just happenstance that the stars aligned and it turned into a massive massive hit.
So I’m sorry if I’m coming at this from a more clinical and analytical perspective than that of a fanboy. I’m not viewing Star Wars from the perspective of a fan in 2024 who’s seen the whole franchise. I’m looking at it from the perspective of it being a film made in 1977 with no other films in the franchise around it yet.
I cannot see “hope” as being the unifying message of the film. And Luke’s a perfect example of why not. He doesn’t excuse hope and optimism. He does heroic things, but he more or less does things out of obligation and because it’s just a good thing to do. He’s not talking about hope. When he loses his family is it hope that drives him to want to train to be a Jedi? Is it hope that makes him choose C-3PO-O? Is it hope that gets him in a bar fight? Is it hope that causes him to lash out at Ben being taken down by Vader? Same for Han Solo. Han doesn’t give a shit about hope. He’s in it for the money. Every line of dialogue is him espousing that the force is for suckers and losers. What about Leia? She has no hope to be rescued. Did her hope stop Vader from destroying her home planet? Did hope get her out of the prison cell?
You can’t just say the theme is hope when it’s not EXPLORED through the characters at all.
Now FAITH… that IS explored. Vader has faith in the dark side. Obi Wan has faith in the light side. Luke is learning about faith in the force. Han doesn’t have faith in the force. Faith in the force is what helps them win against the empire.
This is why I bring up the idea that the theme of the 1977 film is actually faith vs science. Because not only is this reiterated multiple times in the film, but it’s not the scientific instruments in Luke’s ship that save the day. It’s Luke’s faith in the force.
If the theme is hope… why is the climactic event that saves the day not hope but instead faith in Ben’s teachings against all common wisdom?
This is what I’m talking about. You guys are being REALLY SHALLOW with your interpretations of theme and it shows.
The problem here is that you’re separating faith and hope when they’re much more inextricably linked within the narrative than they are disconnected. Faith in A New Hope is about believing in things you can’t see, which you need to be able to do to hope, because as Leia says in Rogue One, “Hope is like the sun. If you only believe in it when you can see it, you’ll never make it through the night.” I know you want to focus on just A New Hope, but I’m including this because it illustrates my point concisely and it is based directly on the established themes of ANH.
So yes, faith and hope are two themes in A New Hope that are in direct conversation with each other. Faith is what makes hope possible. Case in point, Han has no faith and so he has no hope. He’s cynical and pessimistic. Leia has faith and so she has hope, even when her entire planet has been destroyed. Luke’s journey is about learning to have faith, and therefore learning to have hope. On the other hand, nothing in Star Wars is positioned against science, so that’s a completely null answer on what the theme of A New Hope is.
I said I was going to bow out of this discussion a long time ago and I’m going to do that now, but not before I leave you with two more pieces of advice.
First, most of the information you keep espousing about George Lucas is false. I highly recommend you read the book George Lucas: A Life by Brian Jay Jones so that at the very least you know what you’re talking about if you insist on bringing him up.
And second, it’s polite when engaging in online discussion to not resort to petty insults and disparaging language towards the people you are talking to.
@eternalegolas genuinely thank you for all your valuable input.
