Myself, what do you recommend?
SHEAF THEORY, DRINK FIVE THOUSAND DROPS OF WATER, AND THEN SLEEP.
Okay thanks :3

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@ouroborussy
Myself, what do you recommend?
SHEAF THEORY, DRINK FIVE THOUSAND DROPS OF WATER, AND THEN SLEEP.
Okay thanks :3

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Honestly I like thinking about intuitive reasoning too much to make it all about LLMs.
I just love the feeling of having to contort the brain into a new shape just to look at some new construction the right way! And then if you do it enough times there's a portion of your brain that's in this new shape??? And because it's in the right shape you just rattle off all the specifics because you get where some proof is *coming from*??? Wild.
The intuition is I think where the most terrifying aspects of maths live. They're where I find myself doing most of my deep breathing to centre myself because honestly it's never not scary to just not get something. It's a site of existential dread, like being in a wide open field and something sneaking up behind you. You don't get something and you keep not getting it until you get it. And then you "post-get" it, like you can do it *yourself*. Like Von Neumann and that thing about getting used to mathematics. It's so scary you don't want to show it to anyone! Because it's so close to you and uses so much of your most precious faculties to function. But it's everything.
I've a (possibly unfortunate) soft spot in my heart for informal reasoning in maths. Like don't get me wrong being correct and being demonstrably so is absolutely necessary. I'd never tell an undergrad to only show the vibes portion of a proof. But the so-called post-rigour mindset (don't like that word, also not a Terry Tao fan) has such a wonderful appeal.
Being one with the currents of reason as they take shape not merely within formulae and proofs but within groups of people, among hundreds and hundreds of proofs, within bodies of work. The stuff that takes you a year to learn to do in 5 mins. Dunking your head in the clear stream in which god fishes for theorems, oxygen be damned.
This is one of the things that bothers me so much about the use of LLMs for proofs (even Lean checked proofs). They output five hundred pages of stuff that no one has the time to read, is often subtly wrong (and Lean isn't the be-all end-all of proof correctness either but that's a separate can of worms), and takes from us (in the literal sense of prevents the author from doing themselves) the part of maths that I love most: the musing! The pontificating. The imagination! The imagination that comes from working through shit yourself and letting the waves take you somewhere you never saw coming! The informal reasoning that can only come out of a deep understanding of technicalities.
To me it's what animates a good talk. That the speaker has drowned themselves in that stream and come back with a parable. The best works of mathematics are emotional. They make an argument for what *should* be and *then* make an argument for why it *is*. It's a profoundly unscientific way to think, and it intersects an unfortunate amount with most LLMs' core capabilities. But it's what I love about maths, and it connects me to other people who love it.
I'm so glad mathblr is as big as it is. There are so many cool people here!
Counting
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Want to scream why is this so much why is a thesis like this I want to cry
they should replace the axiom of choice with ME. let me make the choice for you. i feel i'd be great at it
My friend Reinhardt want you to help him make (just a few) choices
it's nice how everything in the world can be described by well ordered and complete systems of rules that fully explain all possible perspectives and interpretations and can answer every question and account for [your phone rings, i hold eye contact with you, my grip on your hand tightens] don't pick that up. that's from godel. block that number.
Based on this post, I'm gonna try to explain why I am not really interested in logic. I explicitly want people to argue back! I'd be very happy to be convinced that I'm wrong.
1. First and foremost, its barely Maths. We use logic in maths, sure, but a lot of logic isn't itself maths. That would be like saying that maths is a subfield of physics, just because it's its most well-known application.
Perhaps this is naive, but to me maths could be loosely and circularly defined as "the studied structures* of mathematics, and their applications to science". Here a structure is a Thingy With Axioms, and implicitly includes working in ZFC if there are sets. Maybe you're allowed to care about the continuum hypothesis, but if either assuming it or its contradiction gives better results (meaning that it allows us to prove more things with applications to the real world), then we should just do that. That's maths now. You can study whatever perverse axiom system you like, but that isn't maths. If you care about interpretation, it's Philosophy; if you don't, it's Logic. Maths cares about both intrinsic properties and interpretation of a particular set of "realistic" axioms, and the useful structures we define from them. I also don't think proofs are true if and only if they _are_ fully rigorous, we just the community to agree that they could be. That's good enough.
This is definitely circular, because what about set theory? But yeah, what about set theory? What is up with that?
2. The "interesting/surprising" results aren't that interesting anymore. Gödel is just the previous generation's Milnor/Freedman. I grew up with incompleteness, it doesn't surprise me. It's been a key part of maths since forever, as far as I'm concerned. I've been aware of exotic and non-smoothable manifolds for as long as I've been aware of manifolds, pretty much, so it isn't surprising that they exist. It's just a technical construction exercise. Same as Banach–Tarski isn't a paradox, it's just the statement that some sets aren't measurable, which isn't weird actually! Maybe there are some good results in there, but are they worth it? Not from the logic/model theory courses I watched my friends take.
On this note, I am excited to see what this is for future generations. Maybe they'll get more and more specialised, but I hope something else fun, well-known, and surprising is proven in our lifetimes, that our children will think is natural and boring.
3. Don't you people like fun?? I get that there's some fun in proving a surprising result, but the actual process?? Do you not like intuition? A physical vibe?? Maybe this is the topologist in me, but even the algebraists and analysists are always drawing shapes and diagrams of some kind, and talking about symmetries and actions. Maybe forcing is powerful, but has it any whimsy? I think not.
That's probably it. Maybe someone can explain type theory and HoTT in a way that doesn't make me go "that's maths not logic" and also "ok that's interesting". But Emily Riehl explained it to me and kinda agreed that isn't really logic at all, so I don't have high hopes.
Would love to throw in some arguments (not all *for* logic):
1. I think we agree that "models of ZFC" should be considered to be structures in the sense of any other mathematical structures.
Set theory, as you note, is a kind of "study of structures" in the same vein as other sorts of structure. This I think qualifies it as a legitimate subfield of mathematics. Now where logic comes in is that to me, logic is indispensable as a tool for set theory. We would sort of be floundering around on level 0 without it.
I would go so far as to bat for the point you're making, in that I don't think logic subsumes set theory in any meaningful sense, nor does it subsume any other part of mathematics. It remains a tool and a pretty small part of the content of set theory.
1.a. I will say, however, that I disagree with the point you're making about the study of "realistic" axioms. Every branch of mathematics deals with in some sense separate families of axioms (the ring axioms are not realistic tools for group theory, to pick a silly example). If you are speaking instead of a background family of realistic axioms, then ZFC in that vein has taken a long time to crystallise and shouldn't really be given any special position of being more realistic. The underlying point being, the choice of appropriately realistic axioms is inescapable anywhere in mathematics.
It is certainly true that overexposure to "perverse" axiom systems warps what logicians consider worth studying, but imo there are certain families of axioms that make life simpler in a legitimately mathematical sense, mainly because they create interesting mathematical objects. More on this in point 3.
1.b I agree with you that community consensus is more important than the formal rigour of a proof.
2. You are completely correct about this, surprising results have slowly become extremely commonplace. This is a good thing, in some sense. We wouldn't have progressed unless generations of set theorists thought of incompleteness as inevitable and just moved on.
I'd like to raise, however, what I think are the surprising results that have come out of more recent work:
- the kunen inconsistency, which asserts that certain logical symmetry requirements on a model of set theory contradict the axiom of choice (more on the use of the word symmetry in point 3)
- the covering dichotomies, which assert very sharp order vs chaos dichotomies for the definability of sets (usually of the form, either all sets are approximated by highly definable sets, or the class of definable sets is extremely paltry, for various meanings of "definable")
- the KPT correspondence, which turns facts about continuous actions of certain groups into facts purely about model theory and vice versa
Naturally these are harder to give exact accounts of than incompleteness, but I expect a few of them to reach motivated undergrads within our lifetime.
3. I have the good fortune of working in a very "symmetry" heavy part of set theory. I do indeed spend a lot of my day drawing diagrams and developing visual intuition! The core reason for this is:
What can be thought of abstract logically as "failures of choice" can be thought of more mathematically as "failures of G-equivariant choice". In other words, one doesn't need to warp one's mind to study what happens when "choice doesn't hold" (since in the common consensus it does), one can leave choice untouched and study "G-equivariant" forms of it, and this gives consistency results for forms of choice anyway!
This is a family of methods (called permutation models) that forms a sort of parallel lineage to forcing, in a way that's made a bit clearer with some topos theory (forcing involves posets, which are categories with at most one arrow between any two objects, whereas group actions involve groups, which are categories with all arrows from the same object to itself; the synthesis of these two is the theory of Grothendieck topoi).
I completely share your frustration regarding this, I feel increasingly that forcing and most of its uses do not often have a sense of whimsy, and when they *do*, this is often because the poset being used has a very visual interpretation. It should however be stressed that while the results that pop out at the end are "consistency" results, they nevertheless have mathematical content (G-equivariant choice, for instance, isn't just about choice, but has bearing on G-equivariant cohomology).
The other sense in which symmetries and diagrams and so on crop up is the study of large cardinal axioms. The universe of set theory is in some sense deliberately constructed to avoid symmetries (ZFC typically "wants" sets to have unique descriptions), so when we assume that monoids of symmetries act on a model of set theory, things get very strange!
Here I think a crucial and unfortunate gap in communication takes place with other mathematicians. The study of large cardinal axioms is not that different from defining new forms of *structures* (as opposed to new axiom systems) in other areas of mathematics, and indeed this is the form a lot of "symmetry-based" axioms typically take. I personally wish they were communicated in this manner. The reason they're considered new *axioms* rather than simply definitions of new structures, however, is that their existence is unprovable. This is really the reason that a bit of logic becomes essential to their study.
A reasonable analogy for this is: often a ring will have, definable within it, another ring with different properties. This is a very common construction (think the ring of integers of a field). The only difference in set theory is that if this model of set theory definable inside another model is "too small", it directly bumps into Gödel's incompleteness theorem (more technically, no set sized structure that can be proved to exist from ZFC should be itself a model of ZFC). Large cardinal axioms often let one do this, and this makes them outside the purlieu of vanilla ZFC. This is really the thing (and I should stress the only thing) that sets the study of large cardinals apart from other studies of mathematical structure.
And even so, it bears some striking resemblance to the field of complexity theory, where one should not expect, for instance, for a ptime machine to solve a pspace complete problem (similarly a ZFC model shouldn't automatically have a large cardinal structure). This analogy is made exact in the literature, but this isn't the point of this post so I'll cite it another time.
I'd also argue that there is a sense in which these large cardinal axioms are quite realistic: they phrase precisely the intuition that "highly infinite objects are inscrutable". Furthermore, they often have the pleasing effect of making the underlying axiom system of set theory a lot simpler (in the sense that ZFC + new axiom can be expressed by a much simpler set of axioms). Though they study unrealistic "highly infinite" structures, they're rooted in notions of symmetry and "morphisms" for models of ZFC, and they formalise very realistic concepts.
To tie it all up, I think set theorists focus on the wrong things when talking to other mathematicians about their work. Defining new axiom systems is *fun*, but most of what we do is actually doing maths with them.
--
P.S. Most techniques in forcing and permutation models have a direct analogue in the theory of topoi, but topoi have received a much more mathematically palatable treatment (mathematicians don't pretend that any topos should be considered *the* universe of set theory, but that topoi are mathematical objects in their own right). Certainly it is hard to argue that Grothendieck topoi lack geometric intuition. I really hope set theory is eventually communicated well enough to receive this treatment (and brings with it the relevant parts of logic).
Is there a survey paper or something about G equivariant choice? Ideally written for someone who knows about G equivariant cohomology but not much about set theory or logic. Or at least written for a broad audience of mathematicians. I'm interested generally in logic and I'm an equivariant homotopy theorist. Sounds very interesting. And the toposic bits sound interesting too.
Unfortunately such a survey paper doesn't exist to my knowledge. For historical reasons set theorists are still quite hesitant to think of their constructions "externally" (the G-equivariant language). That said, there are a few authors whose work goes in this direction:
1) "cohomology detects failures of the axiom of choice" by Andreas Blass (this is the more "synthetic approach", i.e. in any topos where choice fails, cohomology internally must behave at least a little weirdly -- externally these are usually "G-equivariant sheaves on a G-space X", whose spaces are G-spaces (over X) and whose cohomology is G-equivariant cohomology (over X) where the cocycles have types only among open subgroups of G)
2) https://topos.institute/events/topos-colloquium/slides/2021-10-14.pdf
is by the same author, but a bit more specific.
3) the blass-scedrov monograph, but this is written primarily for a set theory audience
4) freyd has a paper regarding the failures of the axiom of choice where he talks about how choice fails in topoi of G-sets
The point is that while "failures of choice come from interesting continuous group actions" has been known for at least a century and "failures of choice come from topoi with interesting cohomology" has been known since the 80s, not enough people study all these things combined to really write the survey you're looking for, and certainly not enough people have written about it in ways accessible to non-set theorists and non-topos theorists. But hopefully this will change!
Based on this post, I'm gonna try to explain why I am not really interested in logic. I explicitly want people to argue back! I'd be very happy to be convinced that I'm wrong.
1. First and foremost, its barely Maths. We use logic in maths, sure, but a lot of logic isn't itself maths. That would be like saying that maths is a subfield of physics, just because it's its most well-known application.
Perhaps this is naive, but to me maths could be loosely and circularly defined as "the studied structures* of mathematics, and their applications to science". Here a structure is a Thingy With Axioms, and implicitly includes working in ZFC if there are sets. Maybe you're allowed to care about the continuum hypothesis, but if either assuming it or its contradiction gives better results (meaning that it allows us to prove more things with applications to the real world), then we should just do that. That's maths now. You can study whatever perverse axiom system you like, but that isn't maths. If you care about interpretation, it's Philosophy; if you don't, it's Logic. Maths cares about both intrinsic properties and interpretation of a particular set of "realistic" axioms, and the useful structures we define from them. I also don't think proofs are true if and only if they _are_ fully rigorous, we just the community to agree that they could be. That's good enough.
This is definitely circular, because what about set theory? But yeah, what about set theory? What is up with that?
2. The "interesting/surprising" results aren't that interesting anymore. Gödel is just the previous generation's Milnor/Freedman. I grew up with incompleteness, it doesn't surprise me. It's been a key part of maths since forever, as far as I'm concerned. I've been aware of exotic and non-smoothable manifolds for as long as I've been aware of manifolds, pretty much, so it isn't surprising that they exist. It's just a technical construction exercise. Same as Banach–Tarski isn't a paradox, it's just the statement that some sets aren't measurable, which isn't weird actually! Maybe there are some good results in there, but are they worth it? Not from the logic/model theory courses I watched my friends take.
On this note, I am excited to see what this is for future generations. Maybe they'll get more and more specialised, but I hope something else fun, well-known, and surprising is proven in our lifetimes, that our children will think is natural and boring.
3. Don't you people like fun?? I get that there's some fun in proving a surprising result, but the actual process?? Do you not like intuition? A physical vibe?? Maybe this is the topologist in me, but even the algebraists and analysists are always drawing shapes and diagrams of some kind, and talking about symmetries and actions. Maybe forcing is powerful, but has it any whimsy? I think not.
That's probably it. Maybe someone can explain type theory and HoTT in a way that doesn't make me go "that's maths not logic" and also "ok that's interesting". But Emily Riehl explained it to me and kinda agreed that isn't really logic at all, so I don't have high hopes.
Would love to throw in some arguments (not all *for* logic):
1. I think we agree that "models of ZFC" should be considered to be structures in the sense of any other mathematical structures.
Set theory, as you note, is a kind of "study of structures" in the same vein as other sorts of structure. This I think qualifies it as a legitimate subfield of mathematics. Now where logic comes in is that to me, logic is indispensable as a tool for set theory. We would sort of be floundering around on level 0 without it.
I would go so far as to bat for the point you're making, in that I don't think logic subsumes set theory in any meaningful sense, nor does it subsume any other part of mathematics. It remains a tool and a pretty small part of the content of set theory.
1.a. I will say, however, that I disagree with the point you're making about the study of "realistic" axioms. Every branch of mathematics deals with in some sense separate families of axioms (the ring axioms are not realistic tools for group theory, to pick a silly example). If you are speaking instead of a background family of realistic axioms, then ZFC in that vein has taken a long time to crystallise and shouldn't really be given any special position of being more realistic. The underlying point being, the choice of appropriately realistic axioms is inescapable anywhere in mathematics.
It is certainly true that overexposure to "perverse" axiom systems warps what logicians consider worth studying, but imo there are certain families of axioms that make life simpler in a legitimately mathematical sense, mainly because they create interesting mathematical objects. More on this in point 3.
1.b I agree with you that community consensus is more important than the formal rigour of a proof.
2. You are completely correct about this, surprising results have slowly become extremely commonplace. This is a good thing, in some sense. We wouldn't have progressed unless generations of set theorists thought of incompleteness as inevitable and just moved on.
I'd like to raise, however, what I think are the surprising results that have come out of more recent work:
- the kunen inconsistency, which asserts that certain logical symmetry requirements on a model of set theory contradict the axiom of choice (more on the use of the word symmetry in point 3)
- the covering dichotomies, which assert very sharp order vs chaos dichotomies for the definability of sets (usually of the form, either all sets are approximated by highly definable sets, or the class of definable sets is extremely paltry, for various meanings of "definable")
- the KPT correspondence, which turns facts about continuous actions of certain groups into facts purely about model theory and vice versa
Naturally these are harder to give exact accounts of than incompleteness, but I expect a few of them to reach motivated undergrads within our lifetime.
3. I have the good fortune of working in a very "symmetry" heavy part of set theory. I do indeed spend a lot of my day drawing diagrams and developing visual intuition! The core reason for this is:
What can be thought of abstract logically as "failures of choice" can be thought of more mathematically as "failures of G-equivariant choice". In other words, one doesn't need to warp one's mind to study what happens when "choice doesn't hold" (since in the common consensus it does), one can leave choice untouched and study "G-equivariant" forms of it, and this gives consistency results for forms of choice anyway!
This is a family of methods (called permutation models) that forms a sort of parallel lineage to forcing, in a way that's made a bit clearer with some topos theory (forcing involves posets, which are categories with at most one arrow between any two objects, whereas group actions involve groups, which are categories with all arrows from the same object to itself; the synthesis of these two is the theory of Grothendieck topoi).
I completely share your frustration regarding this, I feel increasingly that forcing and most of its uses do not often have a sense of whimsy, and when they *do*, this is often because the poset being used has a very visual interpretation. It should however be stressed that while the results that pop out at the end are "consistency" results, they nevertheless have mathematical content (G-equivariant choice, for instance, isn't just about choice, but has bearing on G-equivariant cohomology).
The other sense in which symmetries and diagrams and so on crop up is the study of large cardinal axioms. The universe of set theory is in some sense deliberately constructed to avoid symmetries (ZFC typically "wants" sets to have unique descriptions), so when we assume that monoids of symmetries act on a model of set theory, things get very strange!
Here I think a crucial and unfortunate gap in communication takes place with other mathematicians. The study of large cardinal axioms is not that different from defining new forms of *structures* (as opposed to new axiom systems) in other areas of mathematics, and indeed this is the form a lot of "symmetry-based" axioms typically take. I personally wish they were communicated in this manner. The reason they're considered new *axioms* rather than simply definitions of new structures, however, is that their existence is unprovable. This is really the reason that a bit of logic becomes essential to their study.
A reasonable analogy for this is: often a ring will have, definable within it, another ring with different properties. This is a very common construction (think the ring of integers of a field). The only difference in set theory is that if this model of set theory definable inside another model is "too small", it directly bumps into Gödel's incompleteness theorem (more technically, no set sized structure that can be proved to exist from ZFC should be itself a model of ZFC). Large cardinal axioms often let one do this, and this makes them outside the purlieu of vanilla ZFC. This is really the thing (and I should stress the only thing) that sets the study of large cardinals apart from other studies of mathematical structure.
And even so, it bears some striking resemblance to the field of complexity theory, where one should not expect, for instance, for a ptime machine to solve a pspace complete problem (similarly a ZFC model shouldn't automatically have a large cardinal structure). This analogy is made exact in the literature, but this isn't the point of this post so I'll cite it another time.
I'd also argue that there is a sense in which these large cardinal axioms are quite realistic: they phrase precisely the intuition that "highly infinite objects are inscrutable". Furthermore, they often have the pleasing effect of making the underlying axiom system of set theory a lot simpler (in the sense that ZFC + new axiom can be expressed by a much simpler set of axioms). Though they study unrealistic "highly infinite" structures, they're rooted in notions of symmetry and "morphisms" for models of ZFC, and they formalise very realistic concepts.
To tie it all up, I think set theorists focus on the wrong things when talking to other mathematicians about their work. Defining new axiom systems is *fun*, but most of what we do is actually doing maths with them.
--
P.S. Most techniques in forcing and permutation models have a direct analogue in the theory of topoi, but topoi have received a much more mathematically palatable treatment (mathematicians don't pretend that any topos should be considered *the* universe of set theory, but that topoi are mathematical objects in their own right). Certainly it is hard to argue that Grothendieck topoi lack geometric intuition. I really hope set theory is eventually communicated well enough to receive this treatment (and brings with it the relevant parts of logic).

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I love how in every math persons’ post I come across they always describe doing the work under a warm dim lamp slowly struggling and trying to figure things out patiently. There’s no sense of rush but rather it gives off a sense of calm stillness and peace in the attempt to truly understand something which is so different from the modern world’s pace that wants optimization continuous new startups and ideas and pushing to the market nonsense that attempts to speed run depth.
It’s as if mathematicians are living in their own bubble unaffected by the hectic calamity of reality where everything is supposed to be dire and urgent. As if reality doesn’t affect them or rather they’ve found how to truly appreciate the world in stillness and in genuine focus.
Or idk just maybe that peace is found through curiosity and the actual desire to understand deeply instead of the performance of surface level knowledge of the next buzzword?
Tbh, I think this is in large part because "I'm frantically working on a thing I can't talk about publicly yet in case someone else is faster" is a much worse post than "I'm currently learning this interesting topic :) has anyone else thought about this?".
There's still a lot of publish-or-perish in maths (particular for the early-career types on tumblr), and in active fields there can be a rush to get your results out before other people's. Also thesis/conference deadlines where applicable are super important.
But the fact that (except for the times I've been away), my last few weeks have been frantically trying to write things up before I need to talk about them to other people doesn't really make for interesting posts, especially since I can't say anything about the maths yet. So I'll get back to making interesting posts once this phase is over, and I'm back in the ponder&learning stage of the phd.
my impression of set theory as a field so far is that it primarily consists of doing roughly the same thing as those videos where someone finds out how much you can change the value of pi in the source code of doom before the game crashes
Basically, yeah
i love saying that "galois acts on this space" etc, as though my bestie evariste is personally showing up and throwing stuff around
to find a counterexample you have to think like a counterexample
google search history
how to stop being bad at homological algebra
homological algebra skill issue
what even does a cone anyway
what even does a cone anyway HOMOLOGICAL ALGEBRA
why does ctrl c ctrl v stop working randomly
theorem that fixes all of my problems
theorem that fixes all of my problems PLEASE
cat videos
all of my mathematical ability vanishes when a contravariant functor appears

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syntax is when you enjoy the music and semantics is when you understand the lyrics
there are infinitely many primes (topological proof due to Furstenberg)