babydragon

The show saved me the trouble of needing to argue that Marinette was manipulative in Nemesis by outright saying that she manipulated Alya to avoid answering her questions. Nice!

This means that I can skip the tedious part of making my case that Marinette isn't a perfect innocent angel and go straight to the fun part of breaking down exactly how she tried to manipulate Alya and why those tactics work.

Just to get this out of the way: no, I'm not accusing Marinette of being some heartless manipulative mastermind. Most manipulation is learned intuitively, by people noticing what works and what doesn't work in order to get them what they want.

Marinette knows those things can make Alya stop asking questions that she doesn't want to answer, so she does them. How much she actually understands what it is she's doing is debatable. She may be thinking "I can't let Alya know no matter what" and so is willing to resort to tactics she knows are manipulative, or she may be running purely on instinct without thinking too much about why those tactics work.

So lets get into it:

Alya: I know you have a secret, I know it's about Adrien and I know you don't want to tell me about it. (...) *Alya shows Marinette the mirage of Monarch detransforming into Gabriel Agreste* Marinette: Why would I have done that? Why keep it a secret that Gabriel Agreste was Monarch?

Marinette's first reaction to being confronted with the accusation of lying is to double down and defend the lie by trying to poke holes in Alya's story.

This, by itself, isn't manipulation. However, it does show us where Marinette's head is at. She doesn't want Alya knowing about the lie, so she keeps trying to cover it up even after she got caught. She knows Alya isn't certain yet, that the guess she's making may be educated, but it's still a guess.

So she tries to exploit that uncertainty, sow even more doubt that this story is right. If Alya can't give a motivation or gives a wrong motivation, that would allow Marinette to point out how the story doesn't make sense and spin the entire thing as being wrong and illogical.

I would classify this as more of a debate tactic than a manipulation tactic. She's attacking the idea itself and trying to debunk it.

Unfortunately for Marinette, it doesn't work because Alya gets the motivation right.

Alya: To protect Adrien.

So Marinette switches to another tactic.

Of course Marinette would, consciously or subconsciously, try to repeat the same tactic. It worked perfectly last time.

I would even go further and say this is something she learned far earlier than the finale of s4. Or at least that she learned the mindset earlier.

Marinette:(gasps) Me, me, me! I can totally help you out with that. (drops plates in excitement) Tom:(catches plates) You mean, as a server? Marinette: Yes. I'll hand the macarons out to Adrien. I mean... (drops plates and knocks over fruit bowl before managing to balance the bowl on top of the plates with a banana and two oranges.) ...to everybody, of course. Not just Adrien 'cause Adrien's not the only one who likes macarons. Sabine:(teasingly) And the fact that Adrien is going to be there has nothing with it, of course. Marinette: Not a thing. Like, not in the slightest. I just want to help out my wonderful sweet parents who I love so much.(drops the balanced bowl and the fruit) (Tom and Sabine look at each other warily) Marinette:(dejectedly) You guys don't trust me. Then again, I'm such a klutz. Even I wouldn't trust me. (picks up oranges) Tom: Of course you're not a klutz, my darling. You're hired. We'll just— Marinette: (hugs Tom) Oh, thank you! You're the best parents in the world! (dances out of the room while singing, and crashes into something) Sabine: We'll just make twice the number of macarons. Just in case.

This is a conversation Marinette had with her parents in Animaestro (so beginning of s3). In it, Marinette sees that her parents are considering telling her no and so pulls out the guilt trip to convince them to say yes to what they know is a bad idea. In response, her parents fold like a wet paper towel.

Since this is the post for explaining the manipulation tactics she uses, let's break it down:

In this conversation, both Marinette and her parents are aware that 1) Marinette has ulterior motives for asking to be a server 2) she's objectively bad for the role and could cause some actual damage. Two things that make a pretty obvious "no" here.

But Marinette really wants that "no" to be a "yes", so she does something to convince her parents to change their minds.

Marinette:(dejectedly) You guys don't trust me. Then again, I'm such a klutz. Even I wouldn't trust me. (picks up oranges)

This conversation was never about trusting Marinette or not. While strictly speaking, it is a matter of trusting her as a server here, Marinette is speaking in far broader terms. She's claiming her parents don't trust her in general.

Good parents, loving parents, trust their children. But Marinette here is claiming that they don't trust her, which implicitly makes them the bad guys for thinking so badly about Marinette.

If this sounds familiar it's because should. The underlying mechanism of the manipulation here is the same as the manipulation she pulled on Alya, even if the execution is different.

Tom: Of course you're not a klutz, my darling. You're hired. We'll just—

Tom and Sabine very much want to be good parents, and they hate to see their daughter hurt or upset. Especially as a result of their own actions.

Where Alya would've managed to avoid this manipulation by going "do I not trust Marinette to be able to keep stable a large plate of macaroons while she's distracted by Adrien? No, I don't", Tom and Sabine fall right into the trap. They rush to soothe Marinette by "making up" for their sin of thinking so lowly of her by reassuring her that of course they trust her. Thereby giving Marinette exactly what she wants despite their better judgement.

Marinette: (hugs Tom) Oh, thank you! You're the best parents in the world!

Marinette then rewards her parents for giving her what she wants by forgiving them of their transgression and stating that they really are good parents. Not just good, but the best in the world!

Something which both soothes over any lingering discomfort from the guilt trip (so they come out of the interaction with a positive feeling about Marinette rather than a negative one) and incentivizes Tom and Sabine to act this way again.

But the really insidious part is this line:

Sabine: We'll just make twice the number of macarons. Just in case.

Tom and Sabine don't just fall for the guilt trip, they actively work to shield Marinette from the consequences of her actions.

Not only does she get what she wants despite it being a bad idea, she never gets to learn why it's a bad idea. There's a good reason why Tom and Sabine wanted to tell her no. What should happen is that she pushes to get what she wants and then gets a reality check that just because she wants something really badly doesn't mean that it's a good idea for her to get it. Someone can tell her no and be right to do so.

I've spent a lot of time talking about the issues with Lila's writing, so I wanted to step back and talk about reasonable exceptions for a character like Lila. My stance is not that the writers needed to create a true master manipulator for her to work. My stance is that her writing only needed to be strong enough for me to suspend my disbelief.

Suspension of Disbelief

"Suspension of disbelief" is the technical term for an audience being willing to play along with whatever BS the writers are feeding them. It's most often referenced in stories with magic as magic obviously doesn't exist. To enjoy a story with magic, you have to be willing to suspend your understanding that magic isn't real. If you can't do that, then you can't enjoy the story.

Suspension of disbelief applies to far more than magic, though. Stories are full of absurd coincidences, insane luck, and non-magical things that wouldn't work in real life, all of which require suspension of disbelief. Lila's lies are a perfect example. As far as we know, they're not magical. She's just a really good liar. The writers presumably know that they're not writing her like an actual good liar. They're asking us to play along and pretend that she is one. Here's the question: is that a reasonable ask?

Reasonable Expectations

Suspension of disbelief isn't a carte blanche to write whatever you want and blame the audience if they won't play along. It's a contract between the audience and the writers that the audience will play along for the sake of the story, but the writers still owe the audience their best effort. If the writers give a character that is so poorly written that the vast majority of the audience can't believe her supposed role for a second, then the writers have failed. This is where Lila falls.

The problem is not that Lila's lies aren't master class in manipulation. A show meant for young children was never going to give us a true master manipulator. Lila was always going to be simple enough that a child could follow her lies and the adult viewers always needed to be willing to play along even if the lies weren't that good. The problem is that the lies feel like the writers weren't even trying to make Lila work, a stance that is shared by a large number of viewers given the overwhelming amount of Lila salt in the fandom. Most plausible Lila take downs feature something as simple as a character talking to Jagged Stone about his cat or Rose texting her friend Prince Ali about his good friend Lila and learning that he's never met Lila.

When it's that easy for fans to spot ways to take Lila down and canon never acknowledges the problem, then the issue isn't fans asking for too much from a story. It's a story failing to even try to let fans engage their suspension of disbelief. This is why I often suggest fixes as simple as changing Lila's lie from "Jagged Stone wrote a song about me after I saved his cat!" to "I met Jagged Stone backstage at his latest concert." Neither of those lies is particularly impressive, but the second is strong enough for me to play along. The first is not.

Final Thoughts

When it comes to suspension of disbelief, there's always going to be an element of subjectivity. Every person has their own level where the BS gets to be too much and they can't enjoy a story, but I do think the average person is willing to give writers a good amount of grace. We know that any given writer probably isn't an expert scientist or a master manipulator, but we also know that stories need characters like that, so we go into stories with those kinds of characters expecting that there will be some weak points. There are stories where those kinds of characters need to be extremely well done for the story to work, but in many cases, that's not true! We know the hacker isn't actually hacking into a bank, but we'll play along because showing accurate hacking isn't as fun to watch.

I can think of several stories I adore where a character is supposed to be a master manipulator, but the writing falls short of that goal, yet I'm willing to play along because the lies work well enough. One of my favorite characters - Gen from Dr Stone - is a master manipulator with several scenes where his writing falls short of that goal yet I still love him and think he works well enough for the show he's in.

paralogism: helped set up a sham trial which means there were zero stakes so none of his behavior really mattered in the end. pretty much did nothing else and was only there so characters could point out how dluc was the former cavalry captain (remember this)

traveler quest: mentioned but only in context of an assumption that turned out to be completely incorrect so we're still no closer to finding out how he exists

nod-krai aq (rerir's memories): not a single mention of anfortas alberich despite him becoming the regent of khaenri'ah and possibly being one of the four pillars. not a single mention of kaeya either, but don't worry, they made sure to mention that dluc was a former knight in case you missed it the first time!

durin sq: this cameo, while short, was fine! (...aside from the part where diona was only brought in to be nasty to kaeya, a running joke that has never once been funny)

vrka sq: literally just there to comment on dluc's backstory of being a former knight

homecoming event: who's kaeya? btw guys, did you know dluc was a former knight?

lohen sq: oh eroch and ursa are the killers of his adoptive father, surely this time kaeya will – nope just there to tell us about how dluc was the former cavalry captain.

bonus:

this is what he wrote to the traveler:

“I've brewed a fine bottle of wine with my own hands and it's waiting for the day you all return in triumph.”

except that never happened bc in the vrka event THAT HONOR WENT TO SOMEONE ELSE:

Dluc: I happen to have a bottle of fine wine set aside just for the expedition team.

This episode is just bad in general, but it BAFFLES me how the general idea is that Marinette was just so horribly mistreated. Yes, it's easy to disprove Lila, but Marinette made herself look HORRIBLE.

Let's break it down. The episode starts with Marinette coming to class and assuming that Alya arranged for her to sit next to Adrien. This assumption is of course wrong and very thrown out there. The thing to keep in mind is that we as the audience know Lila is lying, but the other characters don't. To the outside eye, it looks like Marinette is just throwing a petty tantrum over not getting to sit next to Adrien for a period, when there literally was the WHOLE day to see him and breathe in his essence or whatever. Lila reinforces this even more by saying that she's causing problems and guiltripping the class. Honestly, Marinette sitting in the back after that was deserved.

Then the lunch scene. This whole thing could have been avoided if Marinette exposed Lila as LADYBUG. Go tell Alya she is not friends with the girl, it's not hard to guess from there the chance of her other tales being false. She then proceeds to throw a NAPKIN at a PERSON WITH AN ALLEGED WRIST INJURY. Lila hasn't even targeted Marinette in any way this far, Marinette makes herself look like a jealous brat. Why didn't she tell Alya and Nino Lila stole Adrien's book? That would immediately make them more wary of her.

Then in the bathroom, Marinette's the one who starts the threatening. WHY couldn't she just say something like "I'm not being friends with a deceiver. Why are you lying?" She's just making herself an enemy this whole episode. Lila's just fighting fire with fire if you ask me.

As for Adrien, i honestly don't understand what he did that was so wrong. From his perspective Lila was lying for attention, which is not the end of the world. He was willing to be her friend and help her. As soon as he saw that she was actually maliciously deceptive in Oni Chan he started avoiding her. It's thanks to him Marinette is still in school.

Half of the conflicts can be solved easily had Alya, the so-called best friend of Marinette, had talked to her about the seat arrangement.

Why not send Nino back there? Why not send Adrien? Why not send both of them? Why not send yourself? Why not send both of you? Why not send Alix and Mylene? Why only send Mari, your own best friend, without informing her and get her consent? Lila said she has hearing issue, so she just need to be in the front seat. Alya rearranged everyone's seat without informing THE class rep. Not even a text or a call iirc, is that too much?

Heck, Alya is fully aware of how insane Mari is regarding Adrien, was that not a factor to be thought about?

Why didn't Alya talk to Marinette about the seating arrangement?

Because Alya wasn't the one responsible. Ms. Bustier was responsible of starting the entire seat change arrangement because she was trying to accommodate the new student.

Because Marinette wasn't there. She was late and arrived after everyone already changed seats, hence why she only had the seat in the back left. Nobody else was sent to the back because they were on time and so got to voice their opinion on what seat they wanted, unlike Marinette.

Because saying that it's Alya's responsibility to prevent Marinette from acting like a crazy person by bending over backwards just so poor widdle Marinette won't have to feel jealous that someone else is sitting next to her property future boyfriend is the same bullshit that all those Marinette apologist say. God forbid we expect Marinette to be responsible for her own emotions and behaviour. Clearly it's everyone else's fault that they simply don't coddle her enough, how cruel of them.

Alya and Adrien saw the tail end of it we don't know how much they objected to isolating the bullying victim again, so they come off the less bad. Especially Adrien, as he's the most socially challenged and apparently figured out he screwed up first.

Almost the rest of the class were there as Chloé originally destroyed Marinette's confidence. They should have known better than let it happen.

Chloé, Sabrina, and Kim were the bullies. Aside for Kim, who isn't the smartest guy around, they knew EXACTLY what was happening. And did nothing.

Finally there's Mme Bustier, who, as the teacher, should have vetoed it. But instead allowed it.

And Lila ironically comes off almost clean out of all this, as not only she was almost certainly unaware of everything that happened in the past but to her this was intended as a warning to try and get Marinette to stop hounding her, a demonstration of what she could do to her before making her peace offering.

Marinette having been bullied by Chloe doesn't mean the entire world is obligated to bend over backwards to put her feelings as a priority in every situation ever. If she was stuck sitting next to Chloe I may be willing to consider it, if it would enable Chloe to target her more.

But you're talking about sitting in the back alone as if that's some kind of unfair punishment to her specifically, when the truth is that someone in class had to sit there (but I guess the other kids getting "isolated" is fine because they're not Marinette?) and it's Marinette's own fault that she ended up sitting in a place she didn't want. She didn't get a say in her seat because she was late. It had nothing to do with Chloe.

Not that Marinette even care that much about sitting alone in the back. Adrien offered to be the one sitting in the back, but she refused it. If that was the real issue, she had the accomodation to the issue that was bothering her so much (which, btw, isn't "Adrien figuring out he screwed up", if that's what you're referring to by that sentence. It's Adrien being a generous guy. He wouldn't have done anything wrong even if he didn't offer to switch with her.) No, the real thing that was bothering Marinette is that Adrien was sitting next to Lila instead of her.

Marinette's subjective experience is not the bar I'm going to measure who is good and bad by, unlike the show and certain parts of the fandom. Even if Matinette can't be rational, it's still her responsibility. Her age means it's also partially her parents' responsibility, but she still has a responsibility over her own mental health and behaviour. It's not anyone else's responsibility to take care of her mental health for her.

And again, the series doesn't show that Marinette is incapable of being rational at that moment. People would get akumatized over being regularly upset at something. And we know that that's the level of upset Marinette is at the moment because she calms down soon afterwards, enough to not get akumatized.

Claiming this moment is a result of Marinette's trauma is pure headcanon.

I'm not sure what you think a teacher's job is, but managing the student's emotions for them is not part of it. Careing for their well being, yes, but not catering to their every whim just so they won't ever feel a bit of disappointment.

In fact, if we're arguing that the teacher is also responsible for the emotional growth of the student, then Bustier wasn't strict enough. She shouldn't have let Marinette disrupt class just because she was pissy about the sitting arrangement. If it bothered her that much, it could be discussed discussed after class.

Not only was Marinette irresponsible and late to class, which caused her to miss the chance to pick her seat, she also made it everyone's problem. Sitting a few hours alone wouldn't have killed her.

As for the "trauma" or whatever, Derision is the worst episode of the entire show and i don't consider it canon. It's just so retconned and stupid.

This is not some accidental characterization due to a "little mistake" in the writing that was "totally not intended". Marinette writing makes clear that she does not care. She chooses to not care about Chat Noir when it comes to giving up being Ladybug and guardian because she won't face consequences for doing so.

He's not part of her life, so whatever painful fallout this will have for him, she won't be faced with it, and that's all that matters. She won't give him a heads up, a way to help her, a way to find her, or one last chance to tell her whatever important thing he wants her to know to help him make peace with it before she's gone for good out of his life. Not to mention, she doesn't want to talk to him one last time, either. There's nothing she wants him to know before leaving him for good. He's not worth the hassle of a conversation.

Whatever pain and other consequences this will cause for him, it's not important for her because she won't have to witness it. Adrien breaking up with her this episode caused to her get akumatized and the only reason why this didn't cause a catastrophe is because ADRIEN was with her and solved the problem to help her deakumatize herself.

But fuck Chat Noir, I guess. If he dared to get akumatized over losing her for good, out of nowhere and with no goodbye, then he wouldn't get any of the luxury treatment she's being given. Chrysalis might even find out he's Chat Noir through the akumatization or at least get a suspicion. And let's not talk about how irresponsible it is for Marinette to not even consider preventing Chat Noir getting akumatized of any relevance cause then that'll be ALYA'S problem.

If he hadn't already renounced his Miraculous at that point, he would do it afterwards. And even then, it stands to question if that would keep him safe from Chrysalis in long-term since HE doesn't have Marinette's privilege of just giving up her memories by renouncing.