I'm a huge fan of EPIC the Musical, I have been since the moment I heard Ruthlessness... well, I'd known about the musical before, but I didn't know what the story was and I'm not a musical fan. I love The Lion King, but that doesn't make me a musical fan. The songs from The Troy and Cyclops Sagas didn't capture me until Ruthlessness took over my entire being. Now I'm obsessed.
I know Jorge says the point of the musical is to have the audience ask whether or not Odysseus is a monster for what he's done. I have a lot of respect for Jorge, but death to the author and all, because I just don't find that question interesting. It also has never made sense to me, and I feel like it falls apart based on lyrics within the musical. Odysseys calls himself a monster and willingly turns into one. Of course Odysseus is a monster for what he'd done to his crew by the events of Scylla. Like, I'm not even going to debate anyone in this. I remember, back before The Underground Saga came out, there were people who were dead set on the idea Odysseus didn't drop the infant, that the infant was spared. But Odysseus did drop the baby. That's a really fucked up thing to do, and it was so horrendous that people refused to believe it until "Monster confirmed it." Not only did the song confirm it, but Odysseus outright admits to himself he'll drop more of them for his own selfish gain, because he's okay with turning into a monster. So yea, he is a terrible person at times. To be VERY clear, I love Odysseus in EPIC, and I can also hold the very real truth that he is a deliberately bad person at times. So in my head I reject Jorge's question of, "do you think Odysseus is a monster? Or is he just a man?"
I don't have a counter question to propose, not really. If anything, I have Superman, specifically Absolute Superman, at the front of my mind. The premise of Absolute Superman is, "what happens when Kal-El is forced to live the worst possible life imaginable, where he does get to know his parents and Krypton, but he loses them in his escape to Earth? What if he gets to meet the Kents and embrace their kindness, only to have it ripped away from him by the system? What if he never gets to know a home, and never gets to feel like he belongs? Will he remain steadfast in his desire to be kind and compassionate, or will he succumb to callousness?" On almost every page the core of who Kal is, is relentlessly attacked and torn away at, and at every single step of the way he still chooses compassion and kindness. He refuses to be molded into the killer the people of Earth him to be.
I follow a video game streamer, Dr. Mick, who plays different games and breaks down very real psychological concepts in a way that's approachable for people who may not have access to that information. Something he talks about is how people will say something like, "I didn't have a choice," and he counters that by saying, "everything is a choice." Lets use EPIC as an example, specifically when Zeus tells Odysseus to end Prince Hector's infant son's life. A lot of people, I'm sure, would say, "Odysseus wasn't given a choice! He had to end the child's life to see Penelope and Telemachus!" But he did make a choice. He chose to obey Zeus' order, instead of defying it. He could have chosen to spare the infant, and risk his family's life. It's a shitty decision, but a decision nonetheless. Here's a more controversial one: Odysseus and Scylla. When I was on TikTok, people would get pissed off at me for saying Odysseus had the choice to not sacrifice his men. They were mad because they fully believed he had to in order to return home. No. He could have made the decision that he would not betray his men's trust, that he'd instead face Poseidon's wrath head on.
As a side note, Dr. Mick's play through of God of War Ragnarok is SO GOOD. I HIGHLY recommend it.
To me, EPIC is about the choices humans make in a world ruled by gods that do not value mortals, where they're only minor annoyances to do with as the gods pleased. Do you obey the gods, potentially betraying your own morals, or do you disobey them, and likely face punishment? Do you disobey them because you would rather not make the selfless (I used selfless intentionally) choice?
In the same vein, I also believe the gods are responsible for their own choices, and in fact, they have a greater responsibility. They are essentially all-powerful compared to humans. Eurylochus has gotten a lot of backlash from the fandom, and they blatantly ignore the fact that Aeolus' winions go out of their way to make Odysseus' crew believe the bag contains treasure. And you truly expect me to believe the crew is going to take Odysseus' word at face value, the same man who's INFAMOUS for being a snake and a liar? Really? I see the gods as parents overseeing a bunch of four year olds, and punishing the mortals in a way that's completely skewed. It's the same with Polyphemus. He's an adult cyclops. He is completely and utterly capable of making decisions, and I'd argue he's capable of realizing Odysseus and his men were completely ignorant in killing the sheep.
My point is that the gods are CONSTANTLY punishing mortals for, honestly, honest mistakes, at least when you compare them to the omniscient position of the gods. The gods will even go out of their way to trick mortals into disobeying their commands, just so they can punish mortals.
So mortals live in this world that is constantly battering at them, always a step away from fucking over their entire lives. The only thing mortals can control is how they respond in a world that is constantly attacking them. Odysseus, in a way, is in the same position as Kal-El, but unlike Kal-El, Odysseus chooses to become a monster. He literally tells us this. "I'll become the monster."
That's why, in my opinion, Jorge's question doesn't work as the premise, because Odysseus makes the deliberate choice to become a monster so he can return home. He will sacrifice his crew. He will choose himself over them when Zeus' demands him to make a decision. Zeus even uses that word, "choose." Because it is a choice.
I guess I solved my own problem of not having an alternate question the musical proposed. I'd argue instead of the question, "is Odysseus a monster, or just a man," I'd say that a better fitting question is, "what choices are you willing to make in a world that demands you to be something you aren't?" You could be a terrible person and the gods could demand you make a selfless choice. Will you obey them, or will you defy them? For Odysseus, he chose to become a monster, thus becoming what the gods had tried shaping him into.
Athena, I think, is a perfect example of this. She chose to stay steadfast in her godliness. Odysseus was tired of tricking people and killing senselessly, so he told the Cyclops his name, because I think that was Odysseus trying to be honorable, and to say, "fuck you," to Athena and her ways. He chose instead to try to follow the path of, "open arms." He tried, and then he abandoned it. Athena, by the time she approaches Telemachus, is now wonders whether or not that was the right thing to do. She's now recognizing her choices had an impact on what the events in Odysseus' life, and what he became. And I think she realizes that because Telemachus has had such a loving and supporting mother, he's been able to hold onto his light and goodness. Athena abandoned Odysseus' in his darkest time, and subjected him to suffering the horrors of immortal beings with absolutely no support. She's not responsible for his choices, but she did play a big part in it, because she'd decided her ego as a god is more important. During "God Games," when she begs Zeus to spare Odysseus, she doesn't use logic or anything like that. That's the moment she breaks the cycle, and pierces through Zeus' ego by simply begging him be kind to Odysseus. She doesn't offer anything in return. Just do it, because you can. You know what happens? Zeus lets him go.
I also want to bring up Hermes, someone who's in a greater position of power, because when he helped Odysseus, he never commands him on how to deal with Circe. He simply warns Odysseus to be wary, and wishes him luck. Because Odysseus listens to his own heart and instinct without trying to be something that's expected of him, Circe ends up helping Odysseus and freeing his men out of kindness and a hope he'll pass it forward. The next time he sees Hermes, Hermes once again offers advice without any expectations of how to handle the obstacle that will be in his way. Odysseus assumes he means Charybdis, and once again, Odysseus is left to deal with the situation without any expectations other than to be what he is, and now what's expected of him. He escapes Charybdis without ever harming the creature. Hermes showed Odysseus empathy and kindness, and never punished him for the choices Odysseus makes. He's by far the most empathetic and altruistic god, and Odysseus ends up being successful because of it.
In the song, "I Can't Help but Wonder," Athena ponders if she had been more emphatic and kind towards Odysseus, if she could have helped him stay more like Telemachus and spared him from what he's turned himself into. She even asks Odysseus if the world could be better if everyone made more room for empathy. I don't think she's just talking about the two of them. I think she's realizing that the gods have created a reality in which they view everything as "tit-for-tat." If the gods stepped back, and viewed mortals with more empathy, maybe the world could progress into something brighter.
By the end, Odysseus recognizes what he's done, and while he's haunted by it, he accepts those actions. He recognizes that the world he's lived in has made his heart dark and heavy, but he also accepts that he made the choices he did, because there's only one goal that matters to him. When he tells Penelope of his years away from home, he doesn't put any responsibility on anyone except himself. He recognizes that despite living in a world where the gods forced horrible choices on him, he still made ones to serve his own ends - to get back to his family. He became a monster because he's just a man in a brutal war. He simply wants to do whatever it takes to get home. He doesn't want to be a great man with pure morals. He wants to be just a man who's willing to make awful choices.
He essentially tells Athena, "it's a world I'll have to miss, because it's far from here, and I may not live long enough to see it." He tells Athena because of her position and status, she has the power and lifespan to maybe help change the ways of the gods, to make the world kinder than the one Odysseus has known. Maybe she can use her position of power to make a world where gods hold themselves accountable, so that maybe Telemachus and those who come after him will know a kinder world that won't ask them to make terrible decisions.
Does any of that make sense? I hope it does.