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'It's a man's world, the music industry': An interview with Street Chant's Emily Edrosa
Duncan Greive interviews Emily Edrosa as Street Chantâs long-delayed second album Hauora is released, and discusses the often-grim realities of life as a woman in the New Zealand music industry. Content warning: contains discussion of sexual assault.
I met with Emily Edrosa twice in April. We went to a pub near my office, and each time she was wearing a Street Chant t-shirt. This seemed to me analogous to the way founders of tech startups wear the companyâs logo on shirts at all times. Startup founders never know when they might be around a potential client or investor; Edrosa never knows when she might be around a potential fan. Sheâs also got that startup mentality of living on bad food and sleeping on couches â a deep commitment to the project, to sacrificing comfort for a dream of something bigger.
Where she and startup founders differ is in pace. Hauora was released a full six years after Means, and she did the first pre-release interviews, with the writing and recording essentially complete over three years ago. She wrote affectingly about the yawning delay for The Pantograph Punch: âI canât express what a struggle this album was to write and complete. Writersâ block, poor band dynamics, substance abuse problems⌠you name it.â That was in September of last year â the album was still seven months away from its release.
Still, despite the darkness of that list of delaying factors, thereâs a persistent black comedy to Street Chant â both lyrically and in the vaguely radical sharing of their social media presence. Itâs a way of experiencing the band which is as valid and enjoyable as listening to their music (and probably as profitable).
A typical example is a photo posted in mid-April of Edrosa embracing Billie Rogers, the only remaining founding member of the band (theyâre on their third drummer). Edrosa had a row of stitches along her chin, and the text told of a theft of a showâs takings and the quasi-home invasion required to get them back.
We met on either side of our publishing âI Will Come Forwardâ. She had messaged me as soon as the first tweets emerged, and spoke privately about some of her experiences as a woman in what she would characterise as âa manâs world, the music industryâ. That formed the backdrop to our conversations, which are condensed and edited below.
What were your first experiences of sexism in the music industry?
When I was really young we went on tour with The Datsuns. Their guitar tech â whoâs probably one of the more famous guitar techs in New Zealand â he was just giving me shit the whole time and Billie as well. About using too many pedals, telling us about the sound, which Iâm used to â like sound dudes literally walking onstage and changing my EQ on my amp.
I remember once a guy asked me for my autograph and [the tech] came up to me and was like âis that your daddy, is it?â in a real creepy voice. And I was 22, it was probably one of my first tours. I was just like, âis this what the music industry is like?â.
It got to the point where Alex, our drummer, went up to him and said âhey man, youâre gonna have to chill out. Youâre making some really inappropriate commentsâ and he goes âwhy, are they bleeding?â And then Alex was like âwhat are you talking about, man?â and he was like âwell thatâs what they do, donât they, women? They bleed.â
We told The Datsuns and they were shocked. I think we didnât have to be in the same space as him again.
Thereâs this weird thing with New Zealand where one strand of its musical history venerates a kind of primitivism with guitar. But then at the same time even within that scene, you definitely get the sense that thereâs a particular way to do that and when women come into it they were being scrutinised extra hard about how they play.
Itâs only in the last couple of years that Iâve wanted to even express femininity in my music. And I was thinking that with this album I really hoped that people wouldnât use the same adjectives as they did last time to describe us, which was âbrattyâ. Which to me is like a gendered thing. They wouldnât have done that to two dudes, I donât think, unless they were a lot younger than we were. We were in our early twenties.
I was thinking about it â Iâm pretty good at the guitar, but I worked to get there because I was aware of that scrutiny and I didnât want to be compared to Le Tigre or Sleater Kinney. Because I felt like if we sounded like a girl band, weâd be marginalised because people see it as a genre. But Iâm actually kind of ashamed of that thinking, because thatâs me buying into it as well. And Iâd watch my friends on stage and dudes in the crowd would go âtheyâre not even that good at guitarâ and then some dumb garage rock band would come on after them who cannot play and everyone would be like âyeah!â
Thereâs this whole extra layer of distance that you must cross before youâre allowed into the âreal musicianâs clubâ.
I had to fake it. I didnât know what I was doing. I had to walk in there and be like âthis is whatâs happeningâ â but if I do that then Iâm a bitch. You canât win. I wanna make music for girls to feel comfortable to go to the shows and to feel like they want to dance to. Not for dudes in Flying Nun shirts to stroke their chins or young dudes to brood to or anything like that. But then also Iâm ashamed that I thought to express femininity was some kind of weakness.
Thereâs that reflexive thing, particularly with men of a certain generation, have about pop music. The same kind of reaction as when Kanye started using autotune. If youâre trying to make a pop-rock record, do you find that you have to almost chase voices out of your head that are trying to tell you that writing a huge hook is betraying some kind of sacred text?
Totally. And voices that arenât in my head too. Voices that are in the room. Maybe itâs a New Zealand thing? To me thereâs nothing wrong with ambition and thereâs nothing wrong with trying to write a pop song. Some people like to turn the vocals down and put heaps of reverb on the terrible lyrics.
That always seemed like a cop-out to me. It said âthis is the ceiling, be stoked with a gig at Kingâs Armsâ you know? I donât think that that was in you guys. I felt that there was more.
I think so too â but then I thought about it too much and fucked it up. I just did an interview with the Herald earlier today and I just found myself saying like âI donât care, I reckon that I am one of New Zealandâs best songwriters.â
And for me to even say that as a woman, and maybe even as a New Zealander, is like a political act. People want to play to nobody. People want things to be average so then they canât be disappointed. I donât know what it is in me, maybe itâs arrogance but I donât know, maybe I donât have anything to lose. Who doesnât want their music to reach as far as possible?
Do you feel that way about Hauora?
I think one of the things is doing it at home and I didnât have anybody on my back, I didnât have the record label saying âthis is the dateâ. I think that wouldâve helped because otherwise Iâm just gonna do mixes forever, try plug out plug-ins forever, try harmonies forever.
Obviously you do have a record label but the involvement wasnât in that way. Was that you resisting that kind of input or was the input just not being there?
Weâd send Ben [Howe, head of Arch Hill] mixes and heâd give his opinion but I just donât think he wants to be that kind of label. Honestly, I donât know if I want that kind of label â but I think I need that kind of label. For it to take so long I think was maybe a self destructive move on my part because, more than anything, I want to be able to pay my rent by making music.
Recording Haoura in Edrosaâs room
Why did you stop being interested in guitar music?
I think itâs boring and I think it became resigned to averageness. If Pavement is your benchmark, you know, like I love Pavement â but they never tried.
But not trying was kind of a revolutionary act, when they didnât try. But then everything that came since wasâŚ
People like mumble, people donât care about lyrics, people donât care. I dunno, maybe itâs a real white person thing.
I donât fucking sit around watching cooking shows or shows about how to build a house. Iâm sorry I know you probably do.
I think itâs because rock music is basically being led by, and maybe I need to be opened up to some new stuff, but by white men, mostly middle class. And what have they got to prove? Thatâs why all they do is stand on stage and stare at their shoes and mumble some words. Not even just people from New Zealand but worldwide, thatâs the thing.
Hip hop music is far more interesting because youâre coming from a different space. They donât have time to go stand around a half-filled bar and play to their mates. Somebody said to me the other day, âyou need to come from a certain privilege to follow your dreams.â Rock music: I donât know whatâs wrong with it.
What is it about hip hop that you found so much more attractive?
Itâs actually far more interesting music to me. All the references you can look up on Rap Genius. I want to do that with my lyrics. I did do that with this album. Nobody fucking does that with rock music. I dunno, I like hip hop because it makes me feel strong and like I donât feel strong all of the time. Iâve got bad hauora, what can I say. I just reckon that people arenât trying. People just arenât trying with rock music. But even if a dude comes out with rock music right now and heâs trying â a white dude, itâs not gonna be enough for me.
When a Kanye record comes out â and weâre speaking in a post Life of Pablo, post-âFamousâ situation â it feels like itâs got risk hardwired into it lyrically. And look at Young Thug whoâs just vomiting out releases and works like an absolute dog. It feels like a relentlessness to how theyâre committing themselves to their art which is just different.
I would like to be more like that. Maybe thatâs it as well, why rock music is boring. Where are the collaborations? Itâs just one voice all the time. People who do rock music have a weird kind of idea, I guess maybe financially itâs easier to do your UMO, your Tame Impala nowadays, and play everything yourself. Financially it probably makes sense, but I also reckon like the idea behind it is they want it to be like a single genius. Like a Brian Wilson-type. Hip hop is just full of collaboration and it just makes it so much more interesting.
Edrosa holding an LP of Hauora, six years in the making. Image: Supplied
Interview part two: conducted on Wednesday April 20. We start off talking about âI Will Come Forwardâ
There were all the quotes [in response to Tidballâs original statement] which were like âI donât know what this is about but I support you.â Like what the fuck kind of way is that to treat anything? Especially that kind of thing. You arrive at my house with blood all over your clothes, âhey I donât know what this is about but I support you.â
But I feel like the music industry itself needs to take responsibility. I mean, I got into an argument on Facebook the other week about how much of a responsibility it is for the promoter to show diversity in the lineup. Because otherwise why are women, why are trans people, why are people of colour gonna feel comfortable coming to a show when thereâs no fucking visibility? Itâs hard to even think about now but itâs a manâs world, the music industry.
I think it has gotten a lot better in maybe the last three years. I donât what that reason is and the cynic in me actually says that itâs like the rise of the â90s being in fashion. Tumblr â90s. And people have taken the good bits. And I think obviously theyâll stay because people are woke now or whatever.
Itâs not surprising. Iâm just trying to imagine how that would feel because as a white dude, you know, things have always been relatively sweet and easy for me. So itâs just not something I immediately think about. Then suddenly, youâre right, itâs like a post-Tumblr realisation that itâs been easy for a reason and itâs really fucking hard for everyone else â but for exactly the same reason.
It is and I constantly, constantly feel like, with regards to my place in the music industry, Iâm dealing with men but most of the time â and to be honest this includes you when you guys were managing us â Iâm being surrounded by like older dudes who are whispering in my ear what I should do. And itâs fucking confusing because everyoneâs saying different things and itâs like everyoneâs speaking at you with a real authoritative tone. And I kind of feel like no oneâs ever actually said to me like âwhat do you wanna do?â I canât remember specifically if you did or notâŚ
I almost certainly wouldnât have.
It was you but then on the other side it was Bob Frisbee, John Baker. I think now that Iâm older Iâm less of an idiot. I know why people were interested in Street Chant then. I know why we were on the news or whatever. It wasnât because of the decisions that all you guys were making, it was because of me. It was because of the spontaneous decisions that I was making â but society, man. I didnât even trust myself.
So how have you been management-wise since?
Weâve just been self-managed. I think there were like a couple of moments where weâve had people but theyâve acted more like booking agents. Because I dunno, on our level, can we really afford to have somebody taking 20 per cent? No.
If the person taking 20 per cent was doubling your revenues, then sure.
Exactly, but thereâs no way. Even from promoting this album now, Iâm trying to think about how weâre going to promote it. Thereâs no RipItUp, really. Is there a Groove Guide? I dunno whoâs gonna publish us. Thereâs no Real Groove. Thereâs no print press, thereâs no music channels. I kinda feel like I can just do everything myself, really.
You said before [we started recording] that the Tidball thing isnât just some isolated situation. That youâve been sexually assaulted more than onceâŚ
By like dudes in local bands as well. When people think of someone thatâs going to be a sexual assaulter, they donât think that theyâll like The Smiths. âThatâs not what I imagined. I didnât imagine that person when I learned about what a rapist was.â Itâs not like that and people need to get that idea out of their head.
Do you feel like your experience is particularly divergent?
Honestly, I find it hard to find â and I donât know if this is just from the music industry or just being a woman in the world â more of my friends have been sexually assaulted than not. Itâs because of a number of things. Itâs because everyone in New Zealand walks home, everyone knows each other, and everyone is wasted the whole time. People just donât understand that there is no grey area. People thought that a world of grey existed before the last two or three years, I think. And people do victim blame. I victim blame myself, saying âaw I shouldnât have drunk that muchâ â but fuck that attitude. Itâs only that Iâm a bit older, in my late twenties, that I can even be aware of it and claim it or whatever.
Itâs weird because, like you say, separating the music industry from society is kind of impossible to do. Itâs a child of it, even if itâs got more extreme elements of it. Do you feel like there are things that could be done?
I have a huge alcohol problem. But Iâve never, ever sexually assaulted anybody. And Iâm a lesbian. I dunno, same rule should fucking apply. Like, I get blackout drunk all the fucking time. Just because youâve got some sort of Babyshambles complex or whatever â people need to be held accountable. And also, when you hear something â I was fucking telling my friend at a party the other week, we were high as shit but I was like âaw youâre still friends with that person because I know that that person is a rapist, is a sexual assaulter.â And itâs someone that we all know.
And when you hear this stuff and you go âaw sorry yeah Iâd heard that.â Iâm like âwell why they fuck are you still mates with him?â Then they go âyeah but itâs like those girlsâŚâ and itâs like âbut what?â Itâs like itâs awkward for them to talk about.
Which in the scheme of societal niceties, surely it doesnât outweigh sexual violence. And theyâre just always there. Fuck, Iâm guilty of that. Iâve probably forgotten more stories like that than I can recall, just like you.
I know one dude who is a literal rapist and every party I go to my friends are hanging around him â and Iâm like ânah that guyâs a literal rapist and you all know this. Go to fucking hell.â But nobody will do anything about it because it might be an awkward convo. Never mind anyone else.
Recording bottles falling over at Roundhead. It never made the album. Image: supplied.
Before we were talking about your tour with The Kills â it sounds like it has been hard for you with women who have achieved a certain level of status within the industry.
Our first big tour was with The Dead Weather and that was Jack Whiteâs band with Alison [Mossheart] from The Kills, and she did not give one fuck about us. It was an all male band, all male crew, everyone was yelling at us the whole time. I stood on one of fucking Jack Whiteâs leads or something and everyoneâs screaming at me. I feel like âjust remember!â
How quickly people forget. Just remember how fucking hard it is to be a woman in this industry. I wouldâve appreciated a hand. I actually donât think she said one word to us. She just sat in the corner smoking Marlboro Lights.
People fall in love with this vision of how a rocker should look and act.
Itâs so fucking done. Itâs so outdated.
The worst one I saw was this guy and he was like âwell thatâs what rockânâroll isâ, and he was like referring to David Bowie and the underage groupie scene and stuff like that. And being like âwell thatâs what everyone signed up for.â The whole thing to me was just particularly disgusting. And I think this is where a lot of people get it wrong or wouldnât have expected â itâs meant to be a place for the misfits to escape that.
And for me it was because I thought if I was going to get sexually harassed it would be by jocks â not, as I said before, by someone who likes The Smiths. But then Andrew, he used his mana in that world to assault people so itâs kinda more disgusting. I feel like heâs a bit of the boogeyman for this whole kind of thing.
Itâs very easy for people to go âoh I wonât work with him.â Cheese on Toast, in my opinion, hasnât been that relevant in years. Heâs not that attractive, heâs not in your friend circle. People need to think about rumours that they hear about people that play in bands, or their flatmates, or their friendsâ boyfriends, and have the same standards.
Street Chant out front of the Grey Lynn villa where Haoura was recorded, and which features on its cover.
Youâve just got back from the South island leg of your tour â it sounded pretty chaotic.
After the Dunedin show we just went to sleep in our friendâs lounge â weâd stayed there last time and some cash had gotten stolen, but it was only like $40 and some ciggies I think. We thought that was pretty weird. But then we woke up this time and all this money was stolen. We could tell that bags had been rifled through. And we looked at who was there, cos they were sort of partying afterwards. I was asleep cos I was so tired, but yeah, it was like a fan of Street Chant who had messaged me asking me for my lyrics and who was there last time as well. We just immediately knew because everybody else who was there was basically like extended family.
So you went and got it back?
We went round to their flat and they were coming back from town and had obviously been spending it up.I was, like, in shock and I was very calm â I was just like âlook, weâve all done stuff that we regret when weâre drunk. Can you just give it back? Otherwise⌠thatâs fucked, why would you do that?
âAnd Iâd probably ruin your life on social media, letâs be honest.â They just wouldnât admit it for ages. Then our friend, who we were staying with, just started screaming. They just went and got all the cash out of their room and handed it to us.
Itâs such a brutal fiscal exercise, touring in this country in the first place. Then someone steals your cash. Howâd you get the stitches?
None of us know how to drive either so then we had rush and try eat some food before we got on the Intercity bus to Christchurch, which was like hell. It was filled with teenagers. Then the bus driver was screaming at us like she was our mum. Itâs a long drive, longer than in the car. Maybe like seven hours. Then we arrived and didnât have a soundcheck and played again, straight away. Afterwards we were loading the gear out and I was just running and then I hit this sign, this low sign. There were many streetlights â itâs Christchurch so probably not â but I dunno, obviously I was pretty tired and not in the best frame of mind. And then I just fell on my chin.
Because it was the last night of the tour we were just happy and excited and we were just like âletâs keep partyingâ. Billie just taped a sanitary pad to my chin and we tried to keep partying. Then I actually went and looked in the mirror finally and it was this gaping hole in my chin. I was just like âtake me to fucking A&E.â It was like 4.30am, which was good because it meant there was no queue. I had to get five stitches.
Do find as you get older that all of the different things you just described, which sound insane but also some variety of normal for doing that kind of thing â do they get harder to take?
I feel like thatâs what being on tour is. Itâs just constant problem solving, whether itâs like youâre at the venue and your fucking lead wonât reach the amp to any number of things. Just problem solving constantly. Yeah I think I am finding it harder as I get older, just because we arrive at the venue and then we have to do the door, and then I get exhausted from being nice to people and Iâve got social anxiety so I wanna drink during that time. So Iâm drinking and then Iâm onstage probably a little bit more pissed than I should be. Or Iâm just so tired that I have to drink to stay awake. Every city you go to everyoneâs like âtonight youâre in town so weâre gonna party!â And when youâre staying on peopleâs couches youâve gotta party by obligation. And I donât want to, well, sometimes.
But then you canât afford hotels. And if you canât afford hotels then basically you exist in public spaces.
Yeah I canât deal with that, Iâm a shy person. And also Iâm just fucking tired, I would like to lie down. But then we want to do the door because we donât want to pay a door person cos weâre fucking broke. But then weâre very happy and lucky to be doing this. Because I know that thereâs a lot of bands out there that people donât fucking wanna go and see.
You guys are a successful band. Imagine if all that were true and you get 12 people in. For most bands, thatâs what happens.
Or the venue wonât even book them. So yeah, weâre pretty fucking lucky. People come up after the show and theyâre like âI love you. I think that youâve got the best voice in New Zealand music. Youâre an amazing guitarist.â Say all this shit to me and quote lyrics from my song and [a friend] will be like âyou know that person snuck in.â
That still goes on? What are you charging now?
For this tour we wanted to do presales just because itâs like more pro or whatever. So we did $10 presales and then we wanted to do $15 on the door but it just like seems so much. People still want $5 shows. People still think $10 is too expensive. Because they think if you have passion you should want to do it for free.
I read that Pantograph Punch piece you wrote which was really cool. It had this honesty about a lot of the stuff weâve talked about. Where did that come from?
I canât bring myself to lie. And plus I feel like the truth is more interesting. I donât know what excuse I would give as to why our record took so long. Whatâs more interesting than the truth? That I had a fucking mental breakdown and had dreams about having a baby every night. I dunno, I feel like itâs so interesting it sounds made up.
Can you talk about the breakdown?
I probably shouldnât use that word but I kind of did, a bit. I mean, I alienated myself so much. I was just in the bedroom of that house, thatâs the one on the cover. And so I didnât really talk to anybody except for my girlfriend, and she would have to come around to my house. We were recording in my room with Bob and Alex and I was so chronically sick at the time.
Itâs such a damp house. Such a damp house and Iâd probably just spend two or three days in bed a week cos Iâm like allergic to most things. Well Iâm really only allergic to dust and cats but I drink a lot and Iâm allergic to like pesticides and cleaning stuff but I canât afford good stuff or organic food. So itâs like Iâm fucked. And I drink so much that my liverâs already processing that. Then living in a damp house and not getting enough sunlight.
But even in 2013 Haoura had a name. It had all the stuff it has now. Yet it was over three years away from coming out.
Yeah it was basically the same record. I guess recording this album has essentially destroyed my relationship with Alex, the drummer. Because he was there a lot, he basically was pressing record for me to do all my vocal takes and I could tell that he wasnât into it, but I was too scared to confront him. So thatâs basically the whole of 2014. At the end he finally quit. But anytime I wanted to play a show or do anything, he was just kinda, he was just passive-aggressively not wanting to be in the band.
I think I just didnât want to listen to it, because it represented that part of my life. And then finally the whole of last year Ben was waiting for the artwork but I couldnât think of something â I just wanted something that represented what it was about.
Itâs perfect because a house should be what provides you with those four elements but that one sucked it from you, right?
Exactly. Thatâs the one that didnât. It kind of was perfect. And I recorded it in that house. Itâs just kind of like â I mean, most people have lived in a shitty Grey Lynn flat like that.
Does the process of actually having gotten it out, do you feel somehow changed by it?
No. I thought when I held it â I havenât even gotten around to listening to it on vinyl and I donât really care. I donât really get into vinyl. I canât afford vinyl. I have a record player and it was taking up too much room on my desk so I just put it in my cupboard. Because if I want to listen to something itâs way easier for me to plug in my computer.
In that Timaru Herald interview for Laneway in 2013 you say, paraphrased, âYou expect to have a better job or life than your parents had but itâs not gonna happen.â I feel like three more years of Auckland house prices rising and the internet taking jobs and the music industry, year on year, just shrinking.
Also like protecting itself.
I dunno, I feel like I donât really need a record label but â I feel like thatâs a hard statement to quantify. But people want jobs, dinosaurs want jobs. So much so that maybe, because thereâs old people in charge of the music industry, thatâs why itâs so shit. Because they donât understand. They donât understand what people want and they donât understand how newer generations think and how they think about music.
I guess they come from an era with very different audience behaviour and different financial realities.
To make any money in the last few years weâve had to sell out to Becks, which makes everyone think that weâre sellouts.
A writer I know once hit me up, furious, about Becks sponsoring music month, and Iâm just like: anything to get a musician a meal, you know?
Thatâs how I think. Heâs probably more furious because for one of the Becks things we got our lyrics on the Becks bottles â but John Reynolds is the artist who did it. And the amount of money we got for that is laughable.
I honestly canât remember but â
In the hundreds, not the thousands?
Then John is friends with Billie and told us how much he got for that. I mean, if I had that amount of money youâd never see me again. I will never, ever see that amount of money. I donât fucking know if we even got our money, because it just went down our publishing recuperable hole that will never be fucking filled â because who wants to hear a whiney grown woman on an ad, ever, playing rock music. Maybe on like a 90s tampon ad? But not today.
Street Chantâs Haoura is out now on LP or through Spotify. The band play The Kingâs Arms this Friday.
