no i wont fix the typo

Just because he is the creator of the series, it doesn't mean he has the right to command to fans which characters they can or can't like. Just because he hates Chloé, it doesn't mean we have to as well.

The fans are more than free to like the characters they want to like, and he needs to accept this and shut up forever.

That's one of the main problems here, TA's inability to accept the fact people can like Chloe BECAUSE she's "evil".

I mean, a lot of this discourse definitely stems from Chloe's ruined redemption, which at the end of the day happened, because her character was acitvely being redeemed.

Even TA admitted it was someone's else's doing, because he wasn't as actively involved with s2-3, that he had to backtrack on. Like sure, whatever, so it wasn't the original plan, but he doesn't have to gaslight us like it didn't happen at all.

Like, wheter you look at Chloe as a misunderstood character who deserved better or a "root of all evil" character, she's badly written and poorly handled either way. THAT is the core problem here.

There's a reason why villains made by writers who understand how enjoyable they can be to watch BECAUSE they're bad people are generally much better written.

The more TA wants me to hate Chloe, the more I like her. Sure, nothing will top redeemable Chloe for me, but even if it's out of pure pettiness (don't underestimate how petty I can be) I will enjoy the "irredeemable" Chloe if TA wants her to be like that so bad.

That's it.

Would I accept a redeemed Chloe? Yes.

Do I like Chloe being brought back every full moon to remind us her upbringing made her a walking pile of human garbage?

Absolutely the fuck not.

I don't like Chloe because of my mistreatment from classmates, therefore, I dislike seeing her when she's being horrible.

People who hate Chloe don't wanna see her. People who love Chloe don't wanna see her like this.

So what was QOTD for? Who was the audience?

You'd think if Thomas hated Chloe soooo much, he'd stop talking about her. He's the type of guy to bring up their horrible ex, even when they're dead and gone.

Yeah sure, give thanks to Asu for forcing Itachi into an acting role

He was forced to tame his hair btw

feels so good to finally have the time to draw some Lukloe

Lady WiFi, pt. 14

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Lady WiFi (Episode 4), pt. 14

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Episode 4 Index

like her behavior is easily identifiable; her bullying stems from her wanting Audrey to notice and love her, and the good she did do came from admiration of Ladybug

she looked up to Ladybug, so its understandable that she would want to appear as good in her eyes

it even could’ve been chalked up to that she hated Hawk Moth more than she did everyone else

but she never really changed as a person outside of her hero work; she had her moments where her “bully-ness” seeped into her hero work, and moments where her hero-side seeped into her personal life

her losing her miraculous stemmed from her revealing her identity publicly, which was an attempt to gain admiration from the people she didn’t receive it from

I personally feel like Chloé’s rise and fall was well written; one of the few good things in her life was being Queen Bee, but due to circumstances she created, that was taken from her

when Hawk Moth then later approached her with the miraculous, she chose to accept it (like she’s 14, so her doing this is plausible imo; teens aren’t always making the best choices)

considering that Zoé’s transformation for Vesperia was storyboarded during S2, it wasn’t some random decision to take the miraculous away from Chloé; they most likely plotted Chloé’s arc and Zoé’s introduction prior to S2 even releasing

with that all being said, they HEAVILY butchered Chloé’s character in S4 and S5

I can understand where the upset surrounding Chloé comes from, but bottom line is that

1. it’s Astruc’s show. he wrote it intentionally, so Chloé not living up to the fandom’s expectations is the fandom’s problem, not Astruc or any of the other writers

In a sane universe, Chloé would have never stayed on as Queen Bee past that first outing. Full stop. Instead, Marinette, for some bizarre reason that still eludes me, decided it was a good idea to break rule zero and give a Miraculous back to someone who revealed their identity to not only Hawk Moth, but the entire city. Then, when that had the exact outcome any person with two brain cells to rub together would have realized in five seconds flat, of Hawk Moo and Mayura using the knowledge of Queen Bee's identity for their own gain, Marinette panicked and scrambled to remove Chloé from the team. Except, "It's not safe for you to have the Bee Miraculous because you've revealed your identity" was never going to fly with Chloé, because Marinette already gave her a Miraculous after she's revealed her identity. All Marinette did was reinforce the idea in Chloé's head that the rules don't apply to her.

Firstly I will say: It is possible she was never meant to he redeemed, and that is not the defense that people think it is. That is an admission of either deep ignorance or repulsive malignance on behalf of the writers.

Next I will say: No plotline for a show with a child audience that involves an abused child being abandoned by the hero to the manipulation of the villains and then *blamed for the results of being manipulated by her abusers* can ever be considered well written. I invite anyone who disagrees to take time and reflect on exactly what that entails. If they still disagree I invite them to never interact with either a child, child media, or any form of child service ever again in their life. Such people are menaces.

Now to tackle the specific flaws with *this* plotline from a purely narrative standpoint even if it were merely a part of a larger arc:

It actually begins in Despair Bear. Prior to this episode Chloé was the classic mean rich girl archetype. You could do anything with that. This episode reveals her abandonment issues for the first time. With this door open she is initially humanized and one key to why she is the way she is has been provided. This was the first loan on her arc. As I said, prior to this the writers had no narrative debt to pay off. They used this loan to play for emotion so it needs to be repayed later. That is how narrative works.

Style Queen/Queen Wasp are the episodes they truly mortgage the narrative though. They introduce Audrey and she is openly verbally abusive on screen. *At this point I personally feel you are committed, you do not let any child abuse go unpunished* My personal bias aside, it builds on despair bear. We see the damage being caused in realtime. We see she has no protection at home from Andre. This doesn't mean she is suddenly a good guy in the narrative but it means she is now a child in need of help. In a child's show that takes precedence over any other role she may have. Her public display is a clear desperate bid for approval after being dumped on in realtime.

Her train-incident is a 'Gwen Stacy's spine' moment. As in, there is no reason she should not have been able to stop the train. Ladybug and Cat Noir stop the train using a three inch pipe and Cat Noir's staff braced on nothing special. There is zero damage. IE- physics were *only* applied to Chloé just like they were only ever applied to Gwen Stacy's spine in Spiderman. This undercuts the narrative they wanted to use this act for. If anything having Chloé engage in some Fury-style antics would have worked better.

The end of Queen Wasp is the point of no return. Having seen firsthand how Audrey treats Chloé, Marinette still sticks her nose in trying to reconcile them. When Audrey can't even bring herself to say she loves Chloé without choking on the word, Marinette highlights all of Chloé's *worst* habits as a means to getting Audrey to finally pay attention to her and see her as someone worthwhile(for five minutes at least) Reuniting a child with an abuser and doing it by highlighting all of the behaviors that are *bad* is a horrible thing to do. *This is not a knock on Marinette.* It is a valid mistake for her to make as a protagonist. However once she *does* the narrative has made the commitment to her learning and correcting her mistake in the future. This never happens in ML.

As Panda stated above, giving Chloe the miraculous again was a dangerous proposition. Marinette had a good intent but it set things up for the villains to attack Chloé, the person Ladybug had chosen to put in the way. As the protagonist and team leader Marinette has a narrative obligation to anyone she utilizes for her team. That's how leadership works.

Hawkmoth tries to bribe Chloé and she rejects him. Mayura tries to bribe Chloé and she rejects *her*. This is more than any other temp hero has been subjected to at this point. The narrative beat is clearly her 'taking her first steps'. There is yet more narrative debt. It is all piling up to a clear arc, deviating from that arc requires paying a wicked exchange rate. It's like borrowing from a bank and trying to pay them back in goats. It might work but you're going to need to make it *really* worth their while.

The first missed beat is that despite it being clear Chloé is both targeted and does not understand why she needs to be sidelined, Ladybug does nothing. The leader fails to protect one of her team. Again I must state- This is not damning Marinette. It is a mistake a character can make as long as the *narrative* treats it as a mistake and a tragedy (spoiler:it doesn't)

Just for icing, Chloé has a literal Bee signal. People always lament 'If only there had been some sign!' The girl was flashing it into the sky! They didn't need to show her doong that but they did! Doing so means it's one more thing added to that narrative debt. It's one more excuse the protagonist doesn't have for not acting.

And despite abandoning Chloé it does nothing to help her or her parents(why would it?) Hawkmoth still targets them. The villains disable the signal. (Sabrina is conveniently absent) We get to see Marinette distracted by her jealousy of Kagami leading to her not transforming back *and then we see her gut instinct being to pick Chloé before she is shown thinking of Adrien and Kagami together and letting jealousy get in the way again!*

At this point you've put *so* much on Marinette's shoulders. She has made relentless errors as a protagonist and leader. The narrative debt looks like the US debt. This could all lead to a pay off though, it is still feasible!(Spoiler: it doesn't)

With Miracle Box in hand and heroes already distracted while Mayura's moth batters Fu the villains decide to rope Chloé in because ????????. No seriously, there was zero need for this. They had just windfalled all the miraculous. They could all three whup on Fu, bugger off, and horde the prize. There was zero reason to give a single Miraculous to a child from a rational standpoint. The *only* reason is that Gabe figured he had tormented/isolated the emotionally abused child to a point where she would be a wreck of an akuma.

If this is the narrative reason then it's blatantly acknowledging the abuse setting up for that big payoff mentioned.

But the fight goes down, and we're left with Chloé desperately trying to reclaim an aluma to have any control left in her life. That fails, she gets a talking to like that will stop Hawkmoth from doing the exact same thing tomorrow. Everyone else gets a happy ending *even the parents whose petty fighting started this finalé are laughing and lovey and ignoring her completely because haha dumb evil Chloé*

Zero payoff. Inverse payoff. The opposite of payoff. Laugh at the girl whose torment is the focus of all this while her shitty parents go bone in city hall. Gross.

Nothing about this as it was written can be considered good because it did not pay off.

It *might* have had a chance if they had stuck with the framing *the show itself does* during master Fu's voiceover that says 'Some lose hope' (said while Chloé us using the bee signal to reach out to Ladybug) but nope. It isn't presented as tragic, it's presented as 'evil bad Chloé, laugh' in the end.

S4 and onward just keeps this framing. Despite her initially welcoming a sister she had no reason to care about(until she felt Zoé had betrayed her) despite Chloé being manipulated by the girl who Manipulates *everyone*(Lila) despite Gabriel and Tomoé manipulating her again, despite Chloé's gut reaction *still* being to arrest Monarch, Despite her mother never once showing her affection and openly mocking her again, despite her father *blaming everything bad he's done on her*, none of it is framed as anything but 'Chloé is bad'.

And the end result of a father abandoning the chold he failed to raise properly so he can steal his not-daughter and leaving her with her abusive mother *who is shown cutting in the moment they are alone* is framed as 'justice'.

There is no place outside of the most depraved circles of fiction this can be considered anything like a satisfying narrative arc *especially in a show aimed at children*. 'It's the child's fault the father fucked them up?' seriously? That is 'well written'?

No, no it is not.

What's worse is that at no point in the show anyone recognize that Chloé is being used and abused by anyone thinking she could be of some use to them, she is manipulated by the villains, Lila, and her parents aren't helping with her issues, but it's Chloé's fault for being a bad person.

Zoé was the only one who did try, and even she eventually gave up, though I think that she could only sympathize with her given they had the same mom and thought Chloé was just wasting her time trying to get their mom's approval which is why she was more tolerant of Chloé.

Adrien gave up because of (of course) what she did to Marinette a year before, so when he wasn't even around, for something he didn't see, and again was a full year prior and ignoring how she became Queen Bee and tried to do better, the moment he learns of the prank on Marinette and she doesn't apologize for it he cuts ties with her, like seriously? Or he forgot he didn't bother trying anymore after Despair Bear? And also, after witnessing her being treated badly by her mom since her return, and the villains obviously having targeted her when she was known as Queen Bee, and seeing how she now hangs out with Lila, you would think he could connect some dots and see that she keeps getting worse and worse because toxic people keep flocking to her to get what they want from her and then can then discard her once she has run out of being useful to them, but nope.

Same thing with Sabrina, who sees Audrey, Lila and the villains making Chloé worse, and she decides she has enough of Chloé's crap and leave her too.

Marinette tried to reassure her once after seeing Lila talk to her, and then never does anything ever again except to complain and fight her, oh she tries to give her a magical charm in Revolution but she's stopped by André. Yet despite witnessing Hawk Moth and Mayura coming to Chloé a few times and seeing Monarch still akumatizing her and seeing Lila getting close to her, she doesn't do anything either.

André's homelife doesn't get better once Audrey comes back and sees her making Chloé worse and instead of doing anything he just dotes on Zoé and then exile Chloé later on with Audrey.

Audrey just cares about Chloé not being a loser and will crack down for her to get retribution over petty slights but she's not making her any better by cattering to her whims when André doesn't want to.

Caline Bustier is pretty much hopeless and blind.

Same with the Butler Armand.

Everyone and anyone close to Chloé do nothing and then are surprised when she ends like that in season 5.

Though then again, given how the writing is, the characters were all let down as much as the writing made them let Chloé down.

Doesn't mean it's not maddening. All her friends and family members and the heroes were written to let her down in some way while she was abused and emotionally and mentally abused left and right by her parents and the villains, and I'm honestly surprised that she still looks ok in season 6 when her last scene in season 5 was Azula's level of breakdown, minus the fire.

Like look, I know the characters aren't privy to what we the audience sees, but still, like, it's like they barely tried there.

So, like, well, yeah, her not getting a redemption in those conditions seemed to be written in the sky itself, but the entire execution is just so infuriating to watch and it's like it's just made to be all her fault only and only her that you cannot stomach and accept it because it was just so insulting how poorly done it was made narratively.

the writing was very poor on that part, but imo, because of that there wasn’t a great way to justify Chloé staying a hero. the writing had already solidified her as a “bully who can never be good”, so unless some miracle happens in the future seasons, Chloé is most likely going to stay that way

while I don’t like how she was written, the writers did make that choice, regardless of how crappy the quality was

unfortunately I highly doubt that a redemption will ever head Chloé’s way; it seems like she’s still very much upset over not having the bee miraculous, and probably is still mad at Zoé, Sabrina, and Marinette

my hope for this episode is that it’ll end with Zoé or Sabrina (even Marinette) making a comment on how change doesn’t happen overnight, and that they’ll be ready to support Chloé if she ever makes the steps to become a better person

(based on the trailer, it looks like Lila purposely/strategically chose to akumatize Chloé; something must have been orchestrated by her)

re-reading some of the things mentioned in the previous posts, i do want to add in my two cents on Chloé’s downfall being a result of things she did

I want to start this by saying Ladybug did not take the right course of action, and did add on to the issues here

Ladybug was responsible for losing the miraculous, which led it to Chloé; Chloé then chose to reveal her identity publicly, which then placed a target on her and her family’s backs

there are reasons behind why Chloé did this in my original post, but the action still occurred regardless

overall, during her run as Queen Bee, nothing really went wrong. I think that the poor writing of her character contributed to her eventual downfall

i can think of numerous ways that the story could have been written to better suit a downfall, but the quality of writing chosen makes her lack of redemption seem relatively last minute

as a Chloé disliker, I do genuinely hate how she was written. not in a “omg she’s a bully and i hate her” way, but in a “there was so much they could’ve done with her character, but they favored poor writing instead”

And... let's be clear what was said here:

Chloe, a 14 yr old girl, is 'Evil'. A 14 yr old child can be 'Evil.'

Adults were 'scared of her'. Scared of a child. When did they start being afraid? age 5? age 9?' When did every adult in her life suddenly become unable to function around children?

It speaks volumes of how little TA cares about FDP, Ms. Bustier, Andre, Paris itself, French society, basically anyone represented in the show that he says 'Handling a child that yells was too much for them.'

He's Infantilized France, just to make his desperate, messed up point.

I'll always allow he may have wanted a Character who was like the vision he has of Chloe in his head(said character should have been older, perhaps an intern at Gabriel's or something) but that is simply *not what was put on screen.*

The adult thing to do in this case would have been to work with what was put on screen, work with the feedback. There were a million off ramps short of 'Make her an angel/hero' to take. He had almost a decade to do it.

Twilight Princess