Detangling JC, his motivations, & his feelings on WWX (i)
JC and WWX have a very fraught history, and while WWX’s role as the narrator makes it very clear what his feelings towards JC are, JC’s feelings towards WWX and motivations seem a lot murkier. He goes from treating WWX as a brother, to mounting a siege in a concerted attempt to take his life. His actions and motivations in the aftermath of WWX’s resurrection are also subject to interpretation. This meta provides argument for my interpretation of his feelings and motivations throughout these events.
LOVE AND BROTHERHOOD
It is clear from the outset that JC cared deeply about WWX (I wish I did not have to make a case for this because it should be obvious, but there are some who believe that JC did not love WWX). Although he holds bitterness and resentment towards WWX due to his family situation and their rivalry, he cares about WWX and is protective of him. This shines through especially in times of mortal peril.
When WWX was trapped in the Xuanwu cave, he travelled without stopping to find people to rescue WWX. The trip should have taken 10 days, but because he drove himself to exhaustion in his desperation to save WWX, he only took 7 days.
When WWX is in danger of being discovered by the Wens after the burning of Lotus Pier, he uses himself as bait to draw them away from WWX despite the risk to his own life, which eventually leads to his capture and the loss of his core.
SO WHERE DID THINGS GO WRONG
Things started to take a turn after the Sunshot Campaign. I believe a few key events caused resentment and confusion to build and grow in JC over time:
WWX’s refusal to carry his sword, which put political pressure on YMJ
His decision to break out the Wen Remnants, without consulting or informing JC, with put more pressure on YMJ
His decision to defect from YMJ, effectively (in JC’s mind) picking the Wens over YMJ and his brotherhood with JC
His actions at Qiongqi Path which killed JZX — while we know from WWX’s POV what happened, JC and JYL have no idea what went down except from the claims of the surviving Jin cultivators
His attack on the 4000 cultivators at the Nightless City, which ultimately cost JYL’s life
It’s evident that JC is increasingly bewildered, angered, and hurt by WWX’s actions. It’s clear that he’s confused, and just CAN’T UNDERSTAND WHY WWX IS ACTING THIS WAY. All the while, resentment is building in him that he has to clean up WWX’s messes, all while WWX’s actions undermine him as a leader and brings up childhood insecurities and jealousies. But his love for WWX drives him to continually stand by WWX and believe in him — even grudgingly, complainingly, and with growing resentment. Even up to the attack at the Nightless City, even after JZX’s death, he still seems to believe in WWX.
This last event, the attack at the Nightless City, seems to be the turning point where he stops believing in WWX, so I want to cover this particular event in more detail:
A “pledge conference” is being attended by QHN, GSL, LLJ, and YMJ. This conference is a ceremonial affair, centered around their pledge to eradicate WWX and the Wen remnants. It begins with them honoring the fallen with a toast, but while the other three sect leaders make the toasts, JC goes through the motions of the toast with visible unhappiness, and then conspicuously says nothing to honor the dead.
I feel this action needs to be understood in the context of the ceremony. They are standing in the Nightless City, where their comrades died in the final battle to take down QSW, a battle which WWX contributed to greatly. They are pouring the wine on the ground where the bodies lie to honor the fallen: “Here we honor our fallen. Rest in peace.” (Uncontroversial) “Now in the name of our fallen, we will eliminate the Wens who killed them — and the Yiling Patriarch!” (Controversial because WWX was brother in arms to these soldiers, and JGS is stirring shit because he wants the Yin Tiger Seal.)
JC knows the controversial bit is coming, so while the other sect leaders one by one say things like “rest in peace” and “may they live on” he dumps the wine on the ground and refuses to say anything. He is the only one, of the four with cups, who does not speak.
When WWX appears, the others all draw their weapons, but JC reaction is different: “JC’s pupils shrunk. Blue veins lined the back of his hand.” From this sentence alone, it may not seem clear what he’s feeling, but based on the rest of his actions in this scene, I would guess that he’s shocked and appalled that WWX would dare to appear before such a large and hostile mob, A MOB THAT IS CURRENTLY PLEDGING TO KILL HIM AND SCATTER HIS ASHES, thus recklessly and what seems like arrogantly endangering his own life.
After an increasingly hostile exchange between WWX and the mob, JGS calls for everyone to set up the battle arrays to seal WWX in, with the intention of killing him there. But when WWX calls up the corpses buried under them to defend himself, it’s stated that all the sects were in disarray, except for YMJ, which seems to indicate that WWX’s corpses were not attacking the YMJ delegation — and the YMJ cultivators were not fighting the corpses either.
This all seems to indicate that despite JZX’s death, despite the fact that JC has NO FUCKING CLUE what the hell happened at Qiongqi Path, despite the fact that he’s no doubt been fed lies and biased reports from the surviving Jin cultivators, and despite the fact that WWX is currently unleashing an undead army on all of them — he still believes that there’s another side of the story. He doesn’t even know WHAT that story is, but he believes in WWX— grudgingly, and with growing disbelief, confusion, and incredulity— he still believes, BLINDLY, in WWX.
THE TURNING POINT
In the ensuing chaos, JYL is killed, and WWX finally snaps in his grief, unleashing a hellish and completely uncontrolled bloodbath upon the assembled cultivators. It is estimated that this killed three thousand people, severely decimating the cultivation world’s population.
The siege begins after this attack, and we know from the prologue that the siege was headed by JC, and that he was the one behind key tactical maneuvers (designed using his intimate knowledge of WWX’s weaknesses) that allowed them to eventually sack the Burial Mounds. In the aftermath, he was the main person credited by the cultivation world for the defeat of the Yiling Patriarch. When WWX meets JL at Dafan, he corroborates this by revealing, through the narration, that JGS was the second-biggest contributor to the siege — after JC, who was the biggest contributor.
I know that there are other popular interpretations of JC’s motivations here. I will name two:
He participated in the siege only due to political pressure — after what WWX did at the Nightless City, he couldn’t NOT condemn him or the cultivation world would have turned on YMJ too
He participated in the siege hoping to take WWX alive and bring him back home to discipline privately
But I don’t subscribe to either of these interpretations. I believe he FULLY intended to kill WWX. Firstly, if he was only participating in the siege due to political pressure, why contribute so vitally to the siege, why take a leading role and design tactical maneuvers to bring WWX down? He could have just done as he’d done previously, which was to participate perfunctorily in “opposition” against WWX, but contributing as little as possible, or nothing at all.
Secondly, some may argue that he was trying to capture WWX alive. But before this, he had always given the impression of being extremely cautious, to the point of inaction when maybe action would have been better. JC is VERY risk-averse. His characterization before the siege is that he’d rather do nothing than do something even potentially risky. The intention of everyone else was to kill WWX, NOT to capture him. As such, the risk that WWX would be killed in battle is extremely high. Even if by some miracle, he managed to capture WWX alive despite the best efforts of everyone else to murder him, it would be really difficult to stop the other sects from executing him, and getting permission to take him home and keep him under house arrest. It would be a safer bet to try to sabotage the siege from the inside, which is not what he did. In fact, he did the opposite. He was leading the siege viciously and with intent.
So I believe that he fully intended to kill WWX, which means the turning point was JYL’s death. Up to her death, JC still believed in WWX. After her death, however, the very last we see of him is him clutching JYL’s body, completely in shock, having not yet processed her death. I believe his last words to WWX should hint to us what caused the snap from blind faith to blind hatred. These words were: “Didn’t you say you could control it?! Didn’t you say it would be fine?!” To which WWX (who is having 99 fucking breakdowns all at once) finally admits that he was wrong, and that he can’t actually control it.
My belief is that this incident made JC realize that JYL’s death (and JZX’s as well) was largely caused by WWX’s loss of control over his demonic cultivation, and IMPORTANTLY, JC’s inaction re: WWX’s method of cultivation and his seeming descent into violent radicalism. Despite all the warning signs, the growing escalations, the increasingly violent confrontations with increasingly large death tolls— he continued to believe in WWX, even when he could no longer understand or predict WWX’s actions. Everyone told him “you need to reign him in” “he’s going off the rails” “he’s a danger to us all” and JC didn’t take them seriously because he BELIEVED IN and TRUSTED WWX.
And now his sister is dead, his month-old nephew is an orphan, and WWX has massacred three thousand people in a single night, likely including members of YMJ, in a total loss of control and conscience. I think that was the turning point, the crux of the betrayal.
I believed in you. I defended you. I stuck my neck out for you. But you scorned my help. You rejected and discarded me. You betrayed my trust.
You don’t give a shit about me.
You don’t give a shit about anyone else.
I BELIEVED in you, and YOU BETRAYED ME.
—
NOTE: Right now this meta is getting a little long, so I think this is a good place to maybe cut it in thirds? Part II should cover the siege, WWX’s death, and the 13 years in between, and Part III should cover JC’s actions and motivations after WWX’s resurrection. As the next parts have not been written, I can’t link it! But when Part II is done, I will edit the post to include a link below the cut:
Keep reading
I disagree with your interpretation on where things went wrong, and I’m going to write it all down one by one.
1) WWX’s refusal to carry his sword wasn’t an actual issue, he just seemed eccentric and disrespectful for it, but it certainly didn’t put YMJ under any political pressure. Here’s what put YMJ under political pressure, the fact that WWX refused to hand over the yin iron seal to the Jins.
“In the beginning, Sect Leader Jin asked Wei Ying for the Tiger Seal with nothing but good intentions, worried that he wouldn’t be able to control it and lead to a disaster. He, however, used his own yardstick to measure another’s intents. Did he think that everyone is after his treasure? What a joke. In terms of treasures, is there any sect that doesn’t hold a few treasures?”
- Chapter 73
Any good leader, should have recognized this for what it is, an attempt to control the YMJ clan. And I have reason to believe that JC knew it, too.
2) WWX’s decision to break out the Wens was done without consulting JC, but it was also an emergency, where more people would have died if WWX hadn’t taken any action. You say that JC was “increasingly bewildered, angered, and hurt by WWX’s actions. It’s clear that he’s confused, and just CAN’T UNDERSTAND WHY WWX IS ACTING THIS WAY.”, but WWX explained to him exactly why he took the actions he did.
Don’t forget. Who was the one that helped us burn Uncle Jiang’s and Madam Yu’s corpses? Who returned to us the ashes that are in Lotus Pier right now? And who took us in when we were chased after by Wen Chao?!
WWX points out that JC owes a debt to the Wens, one that he should, by every ethical standard, pay back. Through confucian ethics, WN saved his life and brought his parents bodies back, allowing him to fulfil his duties by giving them a funeral. He owes a debt to him, and not just that, but the debt goes along to his parents, who would not have been able to rest in the afterlife were it not for WN’s actions. He owes Wen Ning 3 times over for this.
WWX, is fulfilling Jiang Cheng’s debt by helping the Wens, and Jiang Cheng knows it. He even says to WWX,
To attempt the impossible’? Fine. You understand the YunmengJiang Sect’s motto. Better than I do. Better than all of us do.
WWX, is in fact, following the Jiang Sect motto, by doing what needs to be done, even if he will fail. This is the meaning of the Jiang motto.
3) WWX did not actually defect from the sect, but rather, it was JC who refused to support him
Wei WuXian replied in a relaxed tone, “Yunmeng is so close to Yiling. I’ll sneak back whenever I feel like it.”
Jiang Cheng snorted, “You wish.”
Wei WuXian, “You said it already. I wouldn’t be in the right even if I am. What else could I do except for jailing myself here?”
Jiang Cheng, “What else? Of course there’s something.”
With Sandu, he pointed at Wen Ning who lay on the ground, “The only way of making up for things is for us to end things before they get the chance to!”
Wei WuXian, “End what?”
Jiang Cheng, “You burn this corpse right now and return to them all these leftovers of the Wen Sect. That’s the only way to make the subject die!” As he spoke, he raised his sword again, preparing to attack.
However, Wei WuXian clenched his wrist, “Are you joking?! If we return Wen Qing and the others to them, they’d meet nothing but a dead end!”
Jiang Cheng, “I doubt you’ll even return all of them. Why do you care what kind of end they meet? A dead end it is, then—what does it have to do with you?!”
Jiang Cheng, “I’m the one who fucking wants to give you a thrashing! Yes, they helped us before, but why in the world don’t you understand that right now any remnant of the Wen Sect is a target of criticism! No matter who they are, with a surname of Wen they have committed a most heinous crime! And those who protect the Wen are at risk of being condemned by everyone! All the people loathe the Wen-dogs so badly that the worse they die the better. Whoever protects them is against the entire world. Nobody would speak for them, and nobody would speak for you either!”
Wei WuXian, “I don’t need anyone to speak for me.”
Jiang Cheng exploded, “Just what are you being so stubborn about? If you can’t do it then move over—I’ll do it!”
Wei WuXian, “Just let go. Tell the world that I defected. From now on, no matter what Wei WuXian does, it’d have nothing to do with the YunmengJiang Sect.”
Jiang Cheng, “… All for the Wen Sect…? Wei WuXian, do you have a savior complex? Is it that you’ll die if you don’t stand up for someone and stir up some trouble?”
Wei WuXian stayed quiet. A while later, he answered, “So that’s why we should cut ties right now, in case anything I do affects the YunmengJiang Sect in the future.”
Or else, he really couldn’t make any guarantees on what he’d do in the future.
- Chapter 73
This isn’t WWX defecting for no reason. This is JC pressuring WWX to either defect, or to kill the Wens. WWX chose not killing the Wens over staying with JC. JC saw it as WWX choosing the Wens over him, and maybe it was, but he gave WWX a ridiculous ultimatum.
4) WWX’s actions at Qiongqi path is one that JC predicted, multiple times. In fact, he was almost hoping for it to happen, given that he called WWX an enemy of the sects, and supported the rumours that said WWX was building an army. He was the one who put WWX in that kind of spot, where something like this would happen.
Jiang Cheng, “I’m the one who fucking wants to give you a thrashing! Yes, they helped us before, but why in the world don’t you understand that right now any remnant of the Wen Sect is a target of criticism! No matter who they are, with a surname of Wen they have committed a most heinous crime! And those who protect the Wen are at risk of being condemned by everyone! All the people loathe the Wen-dogs so badly that the worse they die the better. Whoever protects them is against the entire world. Nobody would speak for them, and nobody would speak for you either!”
After the fight, Jiang Cheng told the outside that Wei WuXian defected from the sect and was an enemy to the entire cultivation world. The YunmengJiang Sect had already cast him out. From then on, no ties remained between them—a clear line was drawn. Henceforth, no matter what he did, they’d have nothing to do with the YunmengJiang Sect!
- Chapter 73
JC put WWX in a difficult position. Note that WWX did not ever tell him to call him an enemy to the cultivation world, only that his actions have nothing to do with the Jiang sect, but JC did that anyway, making sure that WWX would be targeted in the exact way he predicted.
“On your own?” Jiang Cheng sneered, “Wei WuXian, do you believe that even if you don’t stir up trouble on your own, trouble won’t come and find you? It’s often impossible to save someone, but there are more than thousands of ways to harm someone.”
Wei WuXian replied as he ate, “A man with strength can defeat ten with skill. I don’t care if they have thousands of ways. I’ll kill whoever comes.”
Jiang Cheng spoke in a cool voice, “You never listen to any of my opinions. One day, you’ll come to understand that I’m the one who’s right.”
- Chapter 75
This becomes obvious when considering JC’s past actions. He called WWX an enemy of the sects unprovoked, not just because he wanted to cut ties with him, but because he’s hoping that WWX will be attacked and come crawling back to YMJ.
5) The attack on the “4000″ cultivators in nightless city. Firstly, even 3000 is said to be greatly exaggerated. Secondly, JC watched how that attack went down. WWX’s actions didn’t lead to JYL’s death, in fact, JYL died because she was shot by a random cultivator from the orthodox cultivator’s sides. As in, JC’s side killed JYL. They killed her, aiming at WWX.
JC might believe this was due to WWX, but he saw and understood what was going on. He was watching while someone from his side killed JYL, and he was watching while WWX was attacked. He didn’t participate, that came later, but is it really fair to say that he was innocent in these proceedings? That he didn’t act against WWX, while he was deliberately turning WWX into a target, and watched as the consequences of that came crashing down on him?
It’s a bit too easy for people to ignore JC’s actions, and then try to pretend that WWX is arrogant or has a hero complex, rather than someone trying desperately to do the right thing, lol.
Mm this is a long response, so I must also address it one by one.
1) WWX’s refusal to carry his sword wasn’t an actual issue, the fact that WWX refused to hand over the yin iron seal to the Jins was the issue.
Actually, I agree. The underlying issue was that JGS wanted the Yin Tiger Seal, so was trying to sway sentiment against WWX. But there’s a sense of everyone at each succeeding event referring to a history of past actions to be upset with WWX, and the Jins fanning the flames. Even if the underlying reason to fan the flames is the Tiger Seal, it doesn’t change that the thing being used to exert political pressure is a cascading series of actions with the first being “refusing to carry his sword” then all the times he lost his temper and said something arrogant building up into a general sense of “he’s too arrogant”, “he’s out of control” and “he is standing in opposition to all of us”.
When WWX loses his temper, he always says he’s above them all and all of them put together can’t do anything if he wants to do something against them. This is… objectively alarming to hear from someone who holds a weapon of mass destruction, especially in light of escalating skirmishes with other sects, each with a rising death toll. WWX’s cascading series of actions gives the cultivation world a reason to fear his possession of the Tiger Seal, and this seems to prove true when he loses control at the Nightless City. The others continually warn JC of the danger WWX poses, but although JC growingly resents WWX for it, he never seems to consider WWX as an actual threat. The turning point was the Nightless City.
What I don’t understand is this part: “Any good leader, should have recognized this for what it is, an attempt to control the YMJ clan. And I have reason to believe that JC knew it, too.” This is a strong claim. But you haven’t provided any evidence for it. I’m honestly confused where this came from.
2.1) WWX explained to JC exactly why he broke out the Wens, so JC clearly isn’t bewildered, confused, and struggling to understand why WWX is doing this.
The reason that WWX gave JC is that WN returned the corpses of his parents, which IS a reason to feel gratitude. But the true reason why WWX goes out of his way for them, is because of the core transfer, and because he accumulated goodwill with them during the days that JC was unconscious.
Jiang Cheng was someone who held deep grudges. He was imbued with the hatred he held toward the Qishan Wen Sect. He had been unconscious the whole time when Wen Qing and Wen Ning helped him, so he couldn’t feel the same way that Wei Wuxian did at all. Due to this, he had never shown courtesy toward Wen Ning.
It is clear from the excerpt you displayed, that even though WWX has stated his reason, JC is struggling to understand his reason. This is clear throughout the conversation.
Why do you care what kind of end they meet? A dead end it is, then—what does it have to do with you?!
Why in the world don’t you understand that right now any remnant of the Wen Sect is a target of criticism?!
Just what are you being so stubborn about?
… All for the Wen Sect…?
To JC, I think his thought is “yes, they brought the bodies, but they’re the reason my parents are bodies and not people, so the least they could fucking do was bring the bodies” and there’s also the issue of the REST of the sect that was massacred and their bodies were just dumped. There is a debt of gratitude, yes, but there is also overlaying duty of honor-bound vengeance (which is also a thing in Chinese ethics), and a massive vengeance at that, because the entire clan was annihilated. This brings me to the subpoint you make under this argument.
2.2) JC owes WN 3 times over for bringing back his parent’s bodies, a debt that he should, by every ethical standard (and by Chinese ethical standards), pay back.
I don’t want to take up too much space, so if you’re interested in discussing this in good faith, I make an extended argument about the honor-bound vengeance here. Someone linked me an article from CN fandom to refute my argument, which raises the point about the bodies, and which I tried to address here. Unfortunately the person has deleted their responses, but I think a key point of note here is that the matter of “which one is higher, the debt of gratitude, or the vengeance and duty to protect the sect” is a hotly debated topic even in the Chinese fandom. So I feel it’s difficult to say “by Chinese standards, JC did wrong” or “by Chinese standards, JC did right” when Chinese people are still arguing fiercely about which of several conflicting standards should apply in this case. It is certainly wrong to say “by every ethical standard” he did wrong.
That’s why you will see that the title of my meta is not “Why JC was right”, it’s “Detangling JC’s feelings and motivations.” I have more thoughts on this, but I’ll save them for the end.
3) WWX didn’t defect for no reason. JC made a ridiculous ultimatum, by pressuring WWX to either defect, or to kill the Wens.
I’m very confused. The excerpt you quoted doesn’t support this. In fact, it supports the opposite. JC doesn’t pressure WWX to defect. He doesn’t even make this a YMJ matter. He says “there’s only one way out of this: you need to kill the Wens, or they will turn on you!” (not YMJ)
Right now any remnant of the Wen Sect is a target of criticism… those who protect the Wen are at risk of being condemned by everyone… Whoever protects them is against the entire world. Nobody would speak for them (the Wens), and nobody would speak for you either!”
It is WWX who comes up with the solution of DEFECTING, and who makes it about YMJ, when JC’s primary concern was WWX himself. This is WWX trying to be RESPONSIBLE, but to JC it’s also: “I was trying to help you, but you think I’m just afraid for my own skin?” “Is that all there is between us, the sect?”
I feel like calling this an “ultimatum” also ignores the fact that JC isn’t just pointing and saying DO THIS, DO THAT, without doing anything himself. He’s saying “Give up the Wens, and we can still cover this up. We can bury this. We can make them forget the Jin cultivators you killed.” He’s not making an ultimatum: do this or we cut ties. He’s saying meet me halfway. But WWX can’t meet him halfway, nor can he explain the true reason why he can’t. He can’t tell JC about the core surgery, so he decides: let’s just focus on saving you. I can take care of myself.
4.1) WWX’s actions at Qiongqi path is one that JC predicted, multiple times.
WHERE? The excerpts you provided only showed:
Do you believe that even if you don’t stir up trouble on your own, trouble won’t come and find you?
You never listen to any of my opinions. One day, you’ll come to understand that I’m the one who’s right.
He did not predict WWX’s actions. He predicted that trouble would find WWX, and was warning him to be careful. WWX dismisses his concern. JC says you never listen to anything I say. Idk I personally see a kind of sadness and hurt there. But idk, I feel like we might be reading different novels here.
4.2) JC was hoping for Qiongqi path to happen, given that (A) he called WWX an enemy of the sects, and (B) supported the rumors that WWX was building an army.
Okay, let’s tackle (B) first. WHERE? WWX broke the Wens out. JC comes days later, sees the Wens and makes a dry comment on how the other sect leaders are acting like WWX has 占山为王 when the people are just children and the elderly. He didn’t start those rumors. It doesn’t say anywhere that he supported them. Honestly, my personal interpretation was that he didn’t really take them seriously up until the pledge conference. The last time we see him before the pledge conference IIRC was when he brought JYL to WWX, and he repeatedly makes fun of the Yiling Patriarch moniker. He thinks it’s ridiculous, and honestly kinda funny, but ultimately a joke. Then the next time we see him is the pledge conference, where he seems to be realizing just how serious this is getting. The Yiling Patriarch title is being used unironically and without humor, and they are literally getting ready to storm the Burial Mounds. JC is visibly disturbed, and looks like he’s beginning to doubt his choices.
Okay, so now (A) next. I don’t know if you read Chinese, but I personally feel the tone conveyed in the translation here misses out some stuff, so I’m gonna quote the original and try and break down some of the nuances I PERSONALLY felt were lost in translation:
After the fight, Jiang Cheng told the outside that Wei Wuxian defected from the sect and was an enemy to the entire cultivation world. The Yunmeng Jiang Sect had already cast him out. From then on, no ties remained between them—a clear line was drawn. Henceforth, no matter what he did, they’d have nothing to do with the Yunmeng Jiang Sect!
此战过后，江澄对外宣称：魏无羡叛逃家族，与众家公然为敌，云梦江氏已将其逐出，从此恩断义绝，划清界限。今后无论此人有何动作，一概与云梦江氏无关!
The translation makes it sound like the statement is paraphrased, but in fact, the original gives JC’s entire statement, word for word.
The statement is actually written in a formal register. The feel that I get from this statement, is that it’s very much a PR statement.
I personally feel like the tone of “and was an enemy to the entire cultivation world” is a teeeeny bit off. It sounds like it’s the emphasis or main focus of the sentence, when actually it isn’t.
In Chinese grammar, you can use commas to make a single longgg run-on line, but in English you have to separate them into sentences. In the Chinese, it’s one clause in a really long and somewhat brisk sentence. As a result, it feels a little more careless and throwaway to me, than carrying some kind of deliberate malevolent intent.
Here’s I would phrase it to try and convey a bit more of the formality, but retaining the run-on quality of the sentence: “After this fight, JC announced to those outside the sect: WWX has defected from the clan, putting himself in open opposition to the clans; YMJ has already expelled this person; from here, we have cut all ties, so henceforth, we would like to draw a clear boundary. In the future, no matter what actions are undertaken by this person, it has nothing to do with YMJ!” *The word 敌 is, in fact, enemy, but I translated it this way because the emphasis is on his action of publicly opposing the main families.
Notably, the majority of the statement is taken word for word from what WWX told him to say. He literally says EXACTLY what WWX told him to say.
5.1) 3,000 is said to be a greatly exaggerated death count of those who died at the Nightless City
Yes, maybe it was 2,000. Maybe 1,000. Who knows, it could have been 500!
I don’t know how to say this. But 500 is a lot of people.
Maybe someone will be able to find a canonical reference to actual numbers, but based on the adaptations, I find it difficult to imagine that YMJ was that big (as a great sect) even before it got wiped out. A battle in which 4,000 cultivators were fighting against probably an equal amount of corpses is a MAJOR battle. It could possibly have been nearly the entire population of the cultivation world.
5.2) JC saw that WWX wasn’t the one who killed JYL. He deliberately turned WWX into a target, meanwhile WWX was just trying desperately to do the right thing.
As I said, JC didn’t blame WWX for killing her. He blamed WWX for LOSING CONTROL, and for the cascading series of actions that led to THAT ENTIRE SITUATION becoming a thing. Did I say that was entirely reasonable? That’s why the meta isn’t titled “WHY JC WAS RIGHT AND WWX WAS WRONG” it’s titled “DETANGLING JC’S FEELINGS AND MOTIVATIONS”
JC should have done something instead of standing by! Clearly, he didn’t stand up for WWX because he WANTED them to attack WWX! I’m sorry, but I got the impression that he’s fucking nineteen or twenty years old here, young enough that they still call him 小宗主 (young sect leader). Could the inaction be, idk, because he was young, hadn’t yet made a name for himself, and was overly worried about offending important people? It’s clear that by the time WWX comes back, that has changed, and others are afraid of offending HIM now. But he and WWX were both atrociously young for how much they had to take on. The others in their generation had elders and sects to lean on.
Do I sound ticked off? Honestly, your response has deteriorated in quality and I am having trouble believing that I actually wrote all this out in good faith. MDZS is SO compelling to me because it shows us a “bad person”, a “person who has done wrong”, a “villain by every ethical standard” by presenting us with WWX in the prologue. It then goes on to show us, in detail, how everything went wrong. WWX makes mistakes. He has flaws. But fundamentally, we see his reasons and empathize with him. He’s NOT a villain, and we grow to hate and rally against the people that villainize him.
And in my opinion, this is MXTX’s main message: It’s easy to point fingers, make moral statements, and convince yourself that you are morally superior by making those condemnations. But by drawing an imaginary line between yourself and some “villain”, by bluffing yourself that “even in bad circumstances, I wouldn’t sink to those depths!” you fool yourself into the false assurance that you are clearly not capable of doing wrong. MDZS forces us to confront the fact that it is human to do bad things, and most of all, it also forces us to confront the fact that WE are also capable of doing bad things. The purpose of MDZS is not condemnation. It is self-reflection.
re: the ethics.
I think it’s really funny how there are multiple ethical outlines, even within the same philosophy, and JC chose the one that is the most unforgiving, and the cruelest, lol. And, that’s the theme with his character, because, even he knew why WWX wanted to save the Wens, he didn’t understand it, because he doesn’t understand the idea of fulfilling his duties, and especially doesn’t understand putting himself (no, not his sect, HIMSELF) at risk. And, for him, what is best is for WWX to be at his side, as the servant that he never denied to JGS or anyone else at the meeting that he is.
I also think it’s funny that you seem to think JC telling WWX to lead the Wens to their deaths is “meeting him halfway”. It’s not, it’s JC telling WWX that he doesn’t respect WWX’s morals, choices, or even agency.
You seem to think that most of WWX’s actions were the cause of his death, but ignore the fact that, each time, WWX was attacked first. JC blames WWX for “losing control”, but he was at a meeting to ally himself with people who were trying to murder WWX, and in fact, attacked him first. “WWX murdered 500 people”, and those people still attacked him first, and those people were also the ones who JC saw attacking WWX.
I’d buy that JC was completely done with WWX, and that he decided to kill him like a rabid dog after JYL died, or whatever, if he had decided to stay out of that meeting, maybe, and said he wasn’t interested in pursuing WWX. He didn’t do that. You say that the turning point is JYL’s death, but if that was the case, why did he ally himself with people who were discussing murdering WWX before anything happened to her?
Additionally, he still holds his grudges against WWX even after WWX dies, and by Jin Ling’s account (and his own words during the guanyin temple arc), blames WWX for being the reason that his parents and his sister died, leaving JC “all alone”.
Whatever the case is with the moral outline, the idea that someone is capable of doing wrong even when they are the best of people, I don’t disagree with that. But, the problem is that, when discussing JC, it’s a weird statement to make, because he was the one who blamed others for his own issues, and he was the one who refused to look at his own actions. He’s the very character who never confronted his own actions. Even WWX admits that he had gone too far when it came to taking revenge on the Wens, lol. JC killed WWX, and thought he was right for doing it the entire time.
He did not defend WWX after WWX decides to save the Wens. He most certainly did not stick his neck out for WWX. He decides to save WWX once, loses his core, and decides to never help anyone out again, because he refuses to take risks like losing his core. He would rather be dead, than sacrifice something that he values (which is what he expected when he made that “sacrifice”).
