isupern0va

these two are very interesting to me because monica was originally cast as "miles' love interest" and yet there isn't anything EXPLICITLY romantic about their relationship

sure, they clearly have history and know each other well - "it's good to see you | good to see you too", how comfortable they are around each other, phoenix knowing what was going to happen the second rooster sat down at the piano and encouraging the others to join in, rooster telling phoenix about maverick pulling his papers - but there isn't a single thing that can't be interpreted as platonic

EXCEPT - in the extended scene of rooster singing great balls of fire (just saying, i'm straight for miles teller's voice and nothing else), towards the end he is clearly singing to phoenix (at least from my perspective, idk if it's just me? mostly he sings to their whole little foursome but for a bit in the last chorus - you're so kind, imma tell the world that you're mine, mine, mine - he's like peering out the side of his aviators at her, and it looks like the camera is deliberately behind monica's shoulder to show he's singing to her). however I don't think that part of the song is shown in the movie which leads me to believe that

there was perhaps going to be a romance there and they maybe even filmed it - the movie certainly would have had time to allow for a rooster/phoenix romantic plot, possibly mirroring pete and penny's, particularly if they had hooked up in the past in a similar fashion (as I choose to believe although it never went anywhere in reality/canon)

but obviously there was no canon romance for them (by which I mean a kiss or verbal confirmation of romantic feelings/a relationship) - though their interactions could definitely be subjectively perceived as romantic if you went looking for it - so I guess they cut it out for pacing reasons or because it was too similar to mav and penny or because they wanted phoenix to be more developed or

because they realised how much chemistry glen and miles had and decided to make hangster the new love story instead shrugs in homoeroticism

And tries it with HRH Catherine, The Duchess of Cambridge

They are rich but still nice.   They are nice because they are rich.

Why Reylo is one of the most valuable elements of Star Wars Mythology

And why Disney should not let Reylo end with The Rise of Skywalker if it wants to take the moral high ground.

AS an American, I’d like to take a moment to suggest that Americans have a lot to learn from Rey and Ben. Forgiveness, hope, and redemption, while recognized as nice ideas, are so often not given the deference they deserve. Instead, we’re so much more focused on the pursuit of justice and power, which reflected in film leads to resolutions like Kylo Ren’s/Ben Solo’s death. Or, in real life, leads to paradigms like those present in American criminal justice.

We are doing an unarguably terrible job with criminal justice and reform. We are not forgiving or empathetic as a society. Our justice systems cling to our grudges and desire for punishment when nothing good can come of it. I can only hope that we can recognize our faults, learn, and grow–with a little help from film and story-telling.

As does all good mythology, Star Wars present morals. The intentions in the sequel trilogy are *ahem* perhaps less developed than the previous trilogies, but there’s still something to be learned. In TRoS specifically, moral guidance is best sought in critically analyzing the filmmaker’s choices and identifying the fallacies presented. 

Enter Reylo, the age-old enemies-to-lovers archetype where a heroine and anti-hero restore justice and find happiness. TRoS did it, then killed Ben. Why? Because in the American mindset Ben did ‘horrible’ things, and he should recognize his failures and welcome his own death in order to preserve the ‘pure’ deserving soul, Rey. Criminals don’t deserve a redeemed life of happiness, according to the American creators.

Now, before I get into how wrong this is, here’s a shout out to all of the incredible works out there that have analyzed Reylo and all its glory and value. Here’s a wonderful masterpost by raven-maiden. 

The impact of Reylo in analyzing criminal justice

Our current criminal justice system, at least within the American cultural setting where Star Wars has been developed, is a self-defeating, myopic mess.

There is the profit-driven corporatization of its structures that ignore best treatment practices opportunities for convicts within the system. There is the systemic discrimination that plagues fair treatment of both individuals and groups in the criminal justice and judicial systems from beginning to end. There is the unwillingness and/or lack of resources in our criminal justice system to address and improve the mental health concerns and socio-economic disadvantages of its prisoners and, as a result, cultivate reformed behaviors and improved opportunities among people who have committed crimes. There is also the hypocritical tendency of the criminal justice system to bolster the privileged and penalize the disadvantaged.

Regardless of a person’s place in society, our criminal justice system is focused almost entirely on punishment and removal of people within society who have been convicted of crimes. This doesn’t fix anything. It either maintains or worsens the causes that encourage people to commit crimes. Additionally, our criminal justice system does very little to promote actual justice in the forms of restorative justice.  Generally, people who have committed crimes are not provided avenues that offer meaningful opportunities for reparation, or counseling to recognize and alleviate the social, economic, or physical issues that caused people to commit crimes in the first place. No one is born bad, or wants to be evil, except for perhaps psychopaths.  And it’s clear that Ben/Kylo is not a psychopath, despite of and evidenced by the crimes he has committed.

The Problem with Shunning Reylo or shunning criminals

Those who are Anti-Reylo are generally concerned about abuse, imbalances of power, and toxic behavior and relationships, which they associate with Kylo. I get it. None of those things should ever be tolerated, much less promoted. All people, including Antis, can be assumed to condemn at least most criminal behavior, like Kylo’s. However, the hitch is when people are not willing to tolerate and accept individuals who commit crimes into their communities or relationships ever again—like permitting Kylo to repent, atone, and have a romantic relationship with Rey.

Here’s my issue, many people, for the most part, are sufficiently intolerant to be willing to forgive a person who has committed certain crimes. Clearly, some crimes are beyond redemption. In the spectrum of the severity of crimes, what role does a line in the sand have in story telling? Where does society draw that line? Typically, once crossed the criminal cannot be redeemed. In this way of thinking, reformed behavior, with or without atonement or restitution, would be not be sufficient for welcoming a person who has committed certain crimes back into a community. Like Kylo. Now, it’s not that there shouldn’t be a line. But sometimes we draw that line sooner than we should, and we’re not helping anyone (ourselves included) when we do if forgiveness is never an option.

Just Kylo’s association with the First Order, who as an organization murdered multiple world populations, is past the line for a lot of people. For some, it might be his order to kill the villagers at the beginning of The Force Awakens. Or kidnapping Rey and pushing into her mind during the interrogation scene. Or calling her ‘nothing’ on the Supremacy. Whichever.

I’m not going further into that because for my argument I don’t consider him to have crossed the line, and most Reylos don’t either. Here’s why, and why it matters.

First, Star Wars is mythology. It’s about a god Force and space wizards with laser swords. It teaches values and morals through fantasy and fictional dramatization. It is meant to serve as symbolic guidelines, not hard rules for interpersonal relationships in daily life.

Second, someone argues that Kylo Ren/Ben Solo has irrevocably crossed that line, there is very little to learn or gain from his attributes, his experiences, or his sacrifices. There should always be something to learn. Some *may* be willing to forgive Ben. That forgiveness would have qualifications for the redemption such as certain acts of restorative justice or a sacrifice. But empathy here is limited, if not lacking. And to function as a healthy society, we need lots of empathy.

Third, while Kylo’s representation in the trilogy films is less dimensional that in the extended comics and novelizations, one can not argue that he was abused, neglected, and manipulated into the circumstances of his portrayal. He also was never given an opportunity to truly explain his justification for his actions or the conditions that led to his choices. 

Overall, I’m not interested in where that unredeemable line is for people who support his death, or what redemption might entail. It’s likely they would never be willing to support his reintegration into society/the light side or consider him an appropriate love interest for Rey. Thus, what matters about him only matters in how it reflects on the heroes to whom he is an enemy. That would make him a black hole. But he is an anti-hero, and an amazing opportunity for self-reflective growth. We all make mistakes; he is just an extreme example from whose mistakes we can learn from.

Why Rey’s forgiveness is a necessary component of functional criminal justice

I am interested in the value of forgiveness, and the role mythology has in teaching that value. I’m fascinated by Rey’s willingness to forgive Ben Solo, especially since he turns and supports her once he knows she would forgive and welcome him if he renounced the characteristics that make him a villain.

Society is never going to improve if we lock up our criminals and throw away the key. Or execute them.

Now, I’m not expertly qualified to summarize the fields of criminal psychology or criminology in relation to Kylo Ren. However, I do hope to take a stab at why his criminal behavior is relevant in a tale of forgiveness.

Crime is cyclical. There will always be more people committing more crimes, and people committing crimes over and over. Also, most people who commit crimes, if released, will not be persuaded by punishment alone to stop doing whatever they’re doing that is criminal. This is because, for the most part, people with a history of delinquency have already experienced enough suffering in some form to create the impression that criminal acts will help them avoid the suffering they fear. The most commonly imposed societal threats of repercussions to their behavior, such as imprisonment, would be less severe to them than the punishment though suffering they’re attempting to avoid.

Kylo was abandoned by his family and betrayed, almost murdered, by the Jedi. The supposed crime of associating with Snoke/the First Order initially provided him shelter from those who wronged him. Then, a means of recuperating the power he needed to survive. However, he continued to be abused, manipulated, and neglected. Thus, his crimes continued though which he sought escape of fear and suffering through the pursuit of power in order to provide the needs he was lacking.

The motivations that cause one to commit a crime are generally recognized as related to the absence of any of Maslow’s hierarchy of needs: physiological, safety, love/belonging, esteem, and self-actualization. Maslow, A.H. (1943). “A theory of human motivation”. Psychological Review.

Maslow’s Pyramid 

Kylo suffered from an absence of up to four of those five levels of the pyramid.

Now, society will never improve if we believe all criminals are evil and will always be evil unless we scare them into being good. People who commit criminal acts typically act through fear due to lack of a need. Threatening people into behaving well is not going to take their initial fear away; threats don’t provide missing needs. However, it may foster in delinquents a sense of desperate hopelessness, which would only cyclically perpetuate the conditions cultivating their criminality.

For most of the Star Wars Sequel Trilogy, no one criticizing Kylo’s esteemed role in the First Order is going to convince him to abandon the people who have welcomed, protected, and admired him in order to return to the ‘murderers, traitors, and thieves [Rey] calls friends.’ Not until Rey offers him a place by her side and an opportunity to make things right.

Trust, counseling, and pathways that allow people to meaningfully reenter society into a safe place through proof of intention by reparation, are the conditions through which criminals most effectively break out of the cycle.

We should be providing people who have committed a criminal act with:

1) the security of a route to acquiring their missing needs; 2) the confidence and recovery to be gained through restorative justice; and 3) a safe place to re-enter society. If we want delinquents to go from inclined to commit a crime, to not, then society must give people with criminal pasts a means to reform. To redemption.

That requires forgiveness.

Rey offered these things to Ben. She wasn’t willing to take him as he was in The Last Jedi as Kylo Ren. But she was willing to help him meet the needs he was missing: safety, love and belonging, esteem, and self-actualization. And if he turned, which provided him a pathway to meeting those needs when the dark side and First Order would not (despite his hopes), then she would take his hand. Ben’s hand.

Rey’s forgiveness of Kylo would provide a necessary step in the path to him becoming a better person. To reform. To become a hero that the galaxy desperately needed.

In the Rise of Skywalker, perhaps Rey didn’t need him to defeat the Emperor. She might have done it on her own. But she likely wouldn’t have survived if she did. And then the Jedi, the light side, peacekeepers who attempt to maintain balance in the world where the dark doesn’t over take the light, would have disappeared.

Ben’s turn, his choice to change, is what all people who have committed crimes should be permitted. But Rey’s forgiveness, and empathy before that, is a necessary part of Ben’s redemption. Why change criminal behavior, if it is somehow necessary to survive meaningfully, for nothing? Because it’s the right thing to do? That’s not how we work, fundamentally. We’re not angels.

It’s time to say it:

To err is human, to forgive, divine. -Alexander Pope

Rey’s compassion and empathy for Kylo, and her subsequent forgiveness, to me, is the most important thing to come out of Star Wars. Her willingness to respect and admire a person for who they are, despite a dichotomy, despite a criminal history, is a lesson we urgently need today.

Rey learned this herself, which is perhaps the best story telling choice in TRoS. After she stabbed then healed Ben on Ker Bir, she never again chose to engage in attack. She only saved what she loved. She never again used her lightsaber for assault, only deflection. With her potential for mercy, she convinced Kylo to turn. With only self-defense, she defeated the true threat to the Galaxy, the Emperor. The psychopath.

Retaliatory violence would have only made her become part of the cycle of evil. As our criminal justice system does.

Rey and Kylo teach us empathy. They teach us to be better.

Ancestral archetypes embodied through Reylo, and how they’re wasted

If Ben had lived to atone fully, apart from helping Rey free the galaxy of the true source of evil in fascist totalitarianism, Palpatine, he would have lived to cherish and reward Rey for her empathy through their relationship. The ‘dyad in the Force’ that connects Rey and Ben is related to the long-standing concept of dyads representing two parts of one soul, or soulmates that come together to protect humanity.

Dyads have been seen throughout the history of Western philosophy and literature and have played a role in archetypes as discussed by well-recognized voices including Carl Jung, Joseph Campbell, and Plato. These archetypes, dyads included, have ­­been seen as ‘universal, archaic patterns and images that derive from the collective unconsciousness and are the physic counterpart of instinct.’ They serve to inform and instruct, to help us digest our psychologies and nurture our societies. We’ve seen this dyad in many forms, including that described by Carl Jung as the anima and the animus, and reflected around the world in various cultures and spiritualities including Adam and Eve, Yin and Yang, etc. Essentially, a dyad represents balance. Through Ben and Rey’s archetypal dyad, we can learn so much on why to reform our criminal justice system and mindset. And this is not a new thing.

Behold, Plato’s Androgyne.

“The man was originally the child of the Sun, and the man-woman of the Moon, which is made up of sun and earth, and they were all round and moved round and round like their parents. Terrible was their might and strength, and the thoughts of their hearts were great, and they dared to scale the heavens, and they made an attack on the Gods.”

Connecting this to Star Wars, as perhaps (we could only hope the writers considered, or through the pervasiveness of Jungian’s theories of archetypes we can assume was inadvertently manifested) we see representations as both Rey and the light side (or also the Sith due to her parentage being of the darkness/the Moon), and Kylo, as the dark side (but also of the Rebellion/Resistance due to his parentage). Either way, there’s so many ways to relate this. Regardless, Rey’s and Kylo’s ancestral battles are embodied through the balancing of the light and dark sides of the Force. “The Gods took council and Zeus discovered a way to humble their pride and improve their manners. They would continue to exist, but he cut them in two like a sorb-apple which is halved for pickling.”

Assuming the Gods and Zeus are expressed in the Force, here is where Rey and Kylo are separated from their families and tread their separate ways into the light and dark respectively. The same can be said for the Jedi and the Sith. ”After the division, the two parts of man (the Androgyne), each desiring his other half, came together and throwing their arms around one another, entwined in mutual embraces, longing to grow into one; they were on the point of dying from hunger and self-neglect because they did not like to do anything apart; and when one of the halves died and the other survived, the survivor sought another mate, man or woman, as we call them–being the sections of entire men or women–and clung to that. “

Now, because it’s clear that Kylo and Rey are obvs meant to be together, I’m going to connect the Androgyne to the Sith and the Jedi. “They were being destroyed when Zeus, in pity of them, invented a new plan. He turned the parts of generation round to the front, for this had not always been their position, and they sowed the seed no longer as hitherto like grasshoppers, in the ground, but in one another; and after the transposition the male generated in the female in order that by mutual embraces of man and woman they might breed and the race might continue; or if man came to man they might be satisfied, and rest, and go their ways to the business of life: so ancient is the desire of one another which is implanted within us, reuniting our original nature, making one of two, and healing the state of man.

Here the Force is Zeus, and the “seed [that is the] male generated in the female” is the birth of Rey. And through ‘the mutual embraces of man and woman’ Rey and Kylo, turned Ben, they ‘breed and the race might continue…reuniting our original nature, making one of two, and healing the state of man.”

Plato. “The Symposium”. Benjamin Jowet, trans., Great Books of the Western World

Thus, the value of Reylo.

Through recognition of: 1) the unintended flaws in our humanity need-based motivations for crime; 2) the cyclical nature of crime within our psychology and society; 3) the requirement for forgiveness, support, and acceptance to stop that cycle; 4) and the requirement for man and woman to come together to create new life;

we find that the pairing of our Heroine and our Anti-hero, and the forgiveness and compassion of Rey, serves to restore the balance and heal the wounds in our story.

However, the filmmaking choice to kill Ben, even if in self-sacrifice, is characteristic of society’s unwillingness to tolerate a criminal’s reintegration into society. Despite this, even I started out after the film thinking, “they couldn’t let Ben live. Not for Rey to reach her full potential as a Jedi. He’d drag her down.” Would that necessarily be the case? No. End of discussion.

Thus, Rey’s forgiveness and compassion are devalued and defeated with Ben’s death. There is no hope for those who have been neglected, manipulated, and abused into committing crimes, and our Heroine is left without her soulmate amidst a society that cannot relate to her. With our need for ostracism and retribution, despite the inherent suffering of our repentant villains, we only subtract from the light in society, not add to it. And we’re back where we started.

So. In conclusion, Rey and Ben’s story cannot stop here. Looking at you, DLF. Fix it.