Genuine question about your bi lesbian post (I checked the tag for explainations and yours was one that came up), one of the bigger confusions for me with the mspec lesbian label is: what is a lesbian then? Ive heard it re-defined "queer attraction to women" but thats also for example what bisexual women have. Lesbianism centers women and its the only sexuality that doesnt include men. I dont see why lesbians cant just have our own label for our own sexuality? If we decide lesbianism includes men we wont even have a label for that shared experience anymore.
i think the thing is, is a lot of exclusionists are coming at this from the wrong direction. so much of the language used to argue against mspec lesbians is binarist to the extreme, which is extremely frustrating when what we're talking about is a non-binary identity.
lesbianism has always included nonbinary people, and bisexuals, and gender nonconformists, and trans people, and aspecs, and men, and genderqueers, and mspec people of all kinds! we didn't always have the language, but if you know what to look for you'll see we were ALWAYS there.
but then the second wave of feminism hit, and with it came a lot of very loud upper-middle class white women's opinions. political lesbianism became a thing, and lesbian separatism, and suddenly it wasn't enough to just love women anymore. in fact, under political lesbian ideology, queer love for women didn't factor in at all.
men were evil. men were inherently oppressors. men were sexually depraved animals that would ruin anything they touched. attraction under this ideology was an ethical choice. any woman who chose to align herself with a man was a traitor to the cause, and a victim of the patriarchy, and impure.
if that terminology sounds familiar, you're right, it is! this was the birth of radical feminism, and with it came proto-TERFism.
now, please take a moment to consider why it became so important to center the exclusion of "men" in the definition of lesbianism. think about why a binary of "okay" and "not okay" genders would be encouraged, and who would benefit from their segregation.
all that said, i'll address your concerns point by point
one of the bigger confusions for me with the mspec lesbian label is: what is a lesbian then?
the answer is the same as any queer identity. it's up to personal interpretation. lesbian is a word that someone chooses to express theirself, to explain their identity, and to help find community where they belong.
in my opinion, and how i define lesbian for personal use: a lesbian is someone who experiences queer attraction to women, and prioritizes that attraction when seeking relationships.
but if a lesbian defines their personal experience with lesbianism around their lack of attraction to men, that's cool! it's their identity, and they're the only one who can decide how to relate that to the real world.
the not cool part is when a singular experience is generalized, and touted as universal.
There Is No Universal Experience. the way you feel is not going to be exactly identical to everyone else.
Ive heard [lesbian] re-defined "queer attraction to women" but thats also for example what bisexual women have.
this seems to be a shocking statement to a lot of exclusionists. but. having things in common with other queer people is a good thing. yes, correct, bisexual women experience queer attraction to women. and they have personal reasons why they don't identify with lesbianism, just like you (i assume) have personal reasons why you don't identify with mspec labels. some people have personal reasons why they identify with multiple labels. and it's not our business to pry into anyone's private life!
also, as an aside bc it feels like a lot of people forget this: a bi woman's queer attraction to women is not lesser than a lesbian woman's. bisexuals and lesbians are equally queer. bi women and lesbian women have valuable shared experiences, including and not limited to their love for women, and the history of their communities.
Lesbianism centers women and its the only sexuality that doesnt include men.
it is not the only sexuality that doesn't include men. ceterosexual. finsexual. enbian. neptunic. nominsexual. womasexual. hell, even bisexual doesn't have to include men! i could go on and on and on, but my point is made.
if you don't want to use a different label when you already identify with lesbianism so strongly, well... huh. i wonder who else feels that way 🤔
I dont see why lesbians cant just have our own label for our own sexuality?
this is a bad argument, and my absolute least favorite phrase to hear in a conversation about inclusivity. i will not give a question asked in such bad faith the dignity of a real response.
If we decide lesbianism includes men we wont even have a label for that shared experience anymore.
again, we're not ~deciding~ that lesbianism includes men. multigender, genderfluid, nonbinary, butch, and otherwise genderqueer lesbians have always existed. it's transphobic revisionism to say that they didn't, to pretend this is a new concept.
1) there are always reasons why a person connects with a label. when it comes to queer identity, a lot of people think long and hard about it. we're talking hours upon hours of introspection- weeks, years even. if someone identifies in a way you don't understand, it's not your business to question them. they've thought about their experience more than you ever could.
2) because this is a big argument that gets thrown around: we are not going to force you to fuck men. we are not going to force you to fuck us. if you are not attracted to men, and/or you don't want to be in a relationship with someone who could be, then walk away from them. that's literally all it takes.
3) the acknowledgement and acceptance of mspec lesbians Does Not suggest or encourage the normalization of corrective rape, conversion therapy, or lesbophobic harassment. it does not contribute to lesbian erasure, as that is a problem with public representation and historical accounts, Not a matter of personal identity.
if you have any other questions, or if you want someone else's perspective, @mogai-sunflowers is another good person good to talk to! just please be respectful 💖
