If you were raised Christian, when were you told about hell?
As a child, under 10
As an older child, over 10
I don't remember
Other/Nuance
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@dumpsterprophet
If you were raised Christian, when were you told about hell?
As a child, under 10
As an older child, over 10
I don't remember
Other/Nuance

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@noonesgaylikegatson your post has not left my mind since you made it. I see it everywhere.
Christian doctrine is like very fucked up at its core. and it's hard to explain how fucked up it is because people will say "noo it's not the doctrine or Bible it's the people being bad!" but like all of those things are Christianity. The people, the doctrine, the texts themselves, the way those texts were chosen and put together. Also I don't care how nicely you say you think someone is going to hell, it's still not kind or just. The way you say that doesn't matter.
And sure there's people with a version of Christianity that removes many of the problematic elements, but it's such a minority of people and is it even really Christianity at that point or something else?
I remember learning that churches that don't require difficult demands of their followers struggle to maintain members. like the problematic elements and the control ARE what make people join and stay. It seems nobody is "on fire" for things that aren't problematic.
I dunno.
saw your blog and wanted to ask a Zionism question! someone explained to me the difference between Zionism and Kahanism and said Zionism isnβt bad, and itβs bad for goyim (sorry if I got the word wrong, i mean the one that means non-Jewish people) to declare they are for or against Zionism because itβs nearly impossible for us to be educated enough on the issue to have a good opinion, and overall we shouldnβt talk over Jewish voices. They seemed like a very reasonable person. I just wanted to ask the perspective of that from an anti-Zionist Jewish person because Iβm still not sure Iβm comfortable with the idea of the homeland stuff, but they were right to assume Iβm very uneducated on the topic. They said I should ask Zionists for their perspectives on the topic, but my one Jewish friend said an unfortunate amount of Zionists are also Kahanists so I should be weary, and I donβt know how to decisively tell the difference.
thank you in advance! sorry this may be a big question
The first thing to note is that Zionists are by no means the authority on Judaism so don't let them tell you what you can and can't speak about.
Zionism has global implications so it's not just an internal matter. Zionists use that as a way to shield themselves from criticism. You can and should listen to both Jewish and non-Jewish voices that are advocating for human rights. So yes you can speak on Zionism because of it's impact on global politics and it's various human rights violations.
Yes Kahanism is extremely violent and extremist but so are many Zionists. Zionism is a 19th century nationalist movement for a Jewish homeland and it has achieved that through human rights violations and an ongoing genocide. Personally I have a problem with the idea that a homeland for me should come at the cost of Palestinian homes and lives.
Sure Zionism means different things to different people (most Zionists aren't even Jews fyi) but it's important to pay attention to whose voices are being silenced in the name of a nationalist movement.
Tldr: your Zionist friend is wrong to silence you and use antisemitism as a shield from very valid criticism. Zionism is a violent movement and has been responsible for numerous human rights violations. Both ant-Zionist Jews and non Jews have not only the right but an obligation to speak out against violence towards Palestinians. Fuck Zionists. Zionism is antisemitism
From Cory Doctorow on Christian Zionists:
But Christian Zionists aren't philosemites. They hate Jews and believe that we are all going to hell for murdering Christ. Their support for Israel isn't grounded in a belief in the necessity of a Jewish ethno-state β it arises out of the apocalyptic belief that Christ will return once Jews "return to the Holy Land" β albeit only briefly, before being cast into a lake of fire for all eternity.
In other words, from a conversation I had with my mom once:
Me: You know why evangelical Christians are pro-Israel, right?
My mom: No, why?
Me: Because according to the Bible Israel has to exist in order for the end of the world to happen. But they still believe non-Christians should and would go to Hell.
My mom: So they don't actually care about what happens to Jews, they only want them to start the end of the world.
Me: Exactly.

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There's also a reason I almost always say "harm" when talking about issues in the church and not "bigotry". Bigotry is part of harm, sure, but it isn't the whole picture.
I think sin doctrine is harmful. I think the concept of original sin is harmful. I think purity culture is harmful. I think hell doctrine is harmful. I think vertical morality is harmful. I think mandatory forgiveness is harmful. I think sin leveling is harmful. I think emotion and behavior and thought control are harmful. I think child indoctrination is harmful. I think believing you are separate from the world ("we're in the world not of the world") is harmful. I think isolating/insulating yourself from the world is harmful. I think believing this life is your "practice life" and your "real life" is in heaven is harmful. I think believing that you alone hold the one source of truth is harmful. I think spiritual bypassing is harmful. I think atonement theology is harmful. I think proselytizing is harmful. I think telling people that their thoughts, actions, emotions, beliefs are being monitored every second of every day is harmful. I think believing you are more knowledgeable than experts because you have an all knowing God on your side is harmful. I think believing you know other people's experiences better than they do because you have an all knowing God on your side is harmful. I think encouraging/requiring victims of abuse to put up with abuse because divorce is a sin is harmful. I think prioritizing faith over evidence is harmful.
I'm certainly missing things but this is long enough as is. And not every christian or church does or believes every single one of these, but none of these are one-off or two-off or even three-off things I've experienced. These are all patterns I've noticed.
So I find it odd that when I talk about harm within christianity, a lot of christians only hear "bigotry". And I also find sentiments along the lines of "it's not the doctrine it's the people carrying out the doctrine imperfectly" odd. Even if there were a church that was 100% bigotry free, addressing bigotry doesn't automatically address any of these other things. And I think that the harm christianity does goes far beyond bigotry. I think a lot of the harm is baked into it, baked right into the doctrine. Which means that for every person causing harm by carrying out the doctrine "incorrectly", there are just as many causing harm by carrying it out "correctly".
OK but for real real? I was raised by a evangelical mother and a catholic father and I can 100% tell you that compared to evangelicals catholics enjoy life more.
Mom: I only listen to evangelical songs all famous musicians make deals with the Devil like Freddie Mercury who was also gay and that's Wrong
Dad: *drinks wine while listening to I Want To Break Free* wine was Jesus' favorite drink it's good to drink it
βCatholics all live in guilt and austerity and never have fun. No I have never been in a Latin American country why do you askβ
I feel conflicted about Christmas stuff cause on one hand I enjoy giving presents and telling people I'm thankful for them and I like holidays in general. on the other hand I don't like jesus so.
I'm pretty sure the devotional my mom read to us was like, almost against doctrine but I'm not about to tell her that.

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I don't want to resurrect the culturally Christian discourse but like. if it's a culture doesn't that mean you have to show it some level of respect? like instead of spending all your time talking about how awful my culture is, since I apparently don't get any say in it being my culture or not
For xtian apostates, I hope you have a good christmas even if that doesn't mean the same thing it once did. I hope you get to chose what parts of the holiday to take and what to leave, or if you want to treat it just like any other day that's fine too. I hope you aren't forced to participate in things that are upsetting and contrary to what you believe.
The other thing about discussing harmful things about the christian church and getting "that's not what that verse really means/that's not how that doctrine should be applied/that's not actually supported biblically/etc" back is that... at a certain point it doesn't matter. Yes there are varying beliefs within christianity (understatement with 45,000 different denominations lmao), but you don't get to claim that christianity is separate from any harmful beliefs when a lot of harmful beliefs are the majority.
You can say "the bible wasn't ever talking about gay relationships in [xyz] verses" but that doesn't make the average church actually safe and affirming for queer people. You can say "actually hell doesn't have any biblical backing" but that doesn't mean very much when like 75-80% of christians believe in hell. You can say "men and women are equal in the eyes of the Lord" but it doesn't erase the rampant misogyny in christian culture.
If the members make up the church, if members are the church, then at a certain point the cultural beliefs or majority beliefs have precedence over what was intended. You can't say "oh just ignore [belief/doctrine/interpretation/etc]" when that would be dismissing the church's most predominant collective beliefs. You don't get to just disregard harm because that "wasn't the intention". You don't get to look at the result of said harm and decide it doesn't matter because it makes you look bad.
I've started realizing that there were rules I was given as a kid growing up in fundamentalist christianity that I internalized as Very Serious, but I've learned as I got older that they were more like social expectations rather than Real Rules. So now as an adult I'm shamed for feeling oppressed/traumatized by said rules because it was my fault for not having the skills to discern that it wasn't a Real Rule. But I really, truly don't know how I could have known better.
I grew up in an environment that encouraged black and white thinking. I grew up knowing to fear hell. I grew up knowing Jesus could come back at any moment and if I was sinning I was fucked. I grew up knowing that God had access to all my thoughts at all times. I grew up learning that all sins are equal to god, that lying is the same as murder, that having an unkind thought was the same as violence. And I grew up terrified of questioning things because questioning the lord and questioning the authority the lord put in place (church leaders and parents) was from Satan, and giving into Satan would send me to hell.
Any mistep could have sent me to hell. And Jesus could come back at any time. I couldn't risk testing it. How is any of that my fault?
this. like why are we blamed for taking seriously the thing we were told to take seriously? "nobody believes that" well I did. Even "little" things like believing lying was actually wrong got me in trouble.
idk if I'd always say I'm an antitheist cause I go back and forth on it but it is kind of funny that it's extremely derided and seen as immature or bigoted but like having ONE religion you hate is ok if that religion is Christianity. Like wouldn't it be more prejudicial to hate just one religion? Isn't that weirdly giving xtianity too much credit?

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the fact that Christians call it good news that you can be saved from the eternal torture chamber when the same guy who is saving you invented the torture chamber... it's like that post "heartwarming: girl raises money to stop orphan crushing machine" but it's weird if you question why there's a torture machine and why you need money to stop it
βGood news! The guy who put you on the Conveyor Belt to Eternal Torment can get you off the Conveyor Belt to Eternal Torment for the low low price of an entire lifetime of dedicating your time, money, and devotion to promoting him and his rules! Isnβt he such a great guy?!β
kids who werent raised christian being like "lol baptising children is whack if they tried to do that to me i would start doing things to make it look like i was possessed" no you would not. you would bask in the pride and approval coming from the adults around you and you would quietly wait your turn because you were told from birth that sinning sends you to hell and baptism is The Promise that youre dedicating your life to jesus that youve had hyped up for years and watched other people be fawned over as they cry happy tears about it and you do NOT want to fuck up your One Big True Promise To Love Jesus Forever So You Don't Get Tortured For Eternity when you are literally 8 years old. im begging yall to remember its a thousand times easier to see the church's bullshit for what it is when you're not actively in the church. eight year old you is not thinking about trying to fight back against an oppressive religious group indoctrinating children because You Are The Children Being Indoctrinated. stop acting like you would've magically known better if it were you.
ok wait i have to reblog this again because i saw in the notes someone saying they wanted to get baptized twice because they were scared it wasn't enough the first time and. yeah.
whenever anyone had a "better" testimony than me; whenever i thought about the words i stumbled over; whenever i felt like i wasn't a good enough christian so what if that was fraud (because don't you know, it is worse to be the lukewarm believer?); even whenever i felt like i was being a good christian (because if i am better now, then was i good enough back then?)
the shit runs deep and when you are being indoctrinated, you are being Indoctrinated. it doesn't have to seem rational from the outside.