Dumb Dog

I'm not the one not living in the real world here

But sure. Keep "punching up" at a demographic that faces severe risks of being murdered, correctively raped, forcibly married and impregnated, and denied healthcare, employment, and shelter.

The following is a list of posts, articles, sites etc that talk about transandrophobia and/or anti-transmasculinity, or broader issues and experiences of transmascs that may not use (or even like) this language. I think it's important to look at works from people of all perspectives, and I think it's important for us to be able to look at others' works and see if we can apply our own frameworks (i.e anti-transmasculinity) to the ideas they're presenting as well.

I have also included some texts that I consider foundational to these theories, and I highly recommend reading them to see the frameworks a lot of us are building upon.

Some of these works are much more academic in nature, which I understand is an entry barrier. If anyone needs help with parts of works that you may not understand or would like a second opinion, feel free to DM me or send me an ask and I'll try my best to help out if spoons and time is available.

** = contains more links you should also click through and read thoroughly. Some links may be repeated here, because I think they're also foundational and/or exceptional works.

Transmasc Issues & Experiences

Coiner's (st-dionysus) definition of transandrophobia

**genderkoolaid's intro to anti-transmasculinity

**Archive of Violence Against Trans*masculine People by genderkoolaid

**nothorses' pinned post

The Transgender Dictionary "Transandrophobia" page

Not transmasc invisibility, but erasure by S.L. Void

"irl we just kiss" by S.L Void

Boygirl Girlboy blues by S.L. Void

Eraserhead by Jude Doyle

TERFs, Trans Mascs, and Two Steve Feminism by Jude Doyle

Trans Man or Baby Boy? by Adrian Beyer

There is a hidden epidemic of violence against transmasculine people by Orion Rodriguez

Trans Male Privilege by The Trans Dandy

"My Story Is One of Many": The Criminalization of Testosterone HRT by Stann Fransisco

Strip searches, trauma, isolation: Trans men describe life behind bars by Aviva Stahl

**Repro Masculinity: “An intimate snapshot of trans masculinity, reproductive health and the care that keeps us alive” by Ale Pedraza Buenahora, with interviews of many others

Can the Monster Speak? by Paul B. Preciado

Youngman by Lou Sullivan (also known as We Both Laughed in Pleasure)

Sons of the Movement by Bobby Noble

Becoming a Visible Man by Jamison Green

A Trans Man Walks Into a Gay Bar by Harry Nicholas

Transmasculinity and Feminism by Liam Lair

Other Trans Theory

Trans, Feminism: Or, Reading like a Depressed Transsexual by Cameron Awkward-Rich

The Transunitist Manifesto by Luke B.

The Transfeminist Manifesto by Emi Koyama

A Short History of Trans Misogyny by Jules Gill-Peterson

**What is Transmisogyny? by Julia Serano

Articulating Trans-Misogyny by Julia Serano

Black Trans Feminism by Marquis Bey

Gender Trouble by Judith Butler

Who's Afraid of Gender? by Judith Butler

Black on Both Sides: A Racial History of Trans Identity by C. Riley Snorton

I Am A Transwoman. I Am In The Closet. I Am Not Coming Out. by Jennifer Coates

Feminism & Intersectionality

Feminism is for Everybody by bell hooks

The Will to Change: Men, Masculinity and Love by bell hooks

The Routledge Global History of Feminism by Bonnie G. Smith (editor), Nova Robinson (editor)

the problem with radical feminism by lou reading things (youtube)

Gender: A Useful Category of Historical Analysis by Joan Scott

The Urgency of Intersectionality TED talk by Kimberle Crenshaw

Demarginalizing the Intersection of Race and Sex by Kimberle Crenshaw

Mapping the Margins by Kimberle Crenshaw

There is No Hierarchy of Oppressions by Audre Lorde

The Master's Tools Will Never Dismantle the Master's House by Audre Lorde

Freedom is a Constant Struggle by Angela Davis

Women, Race, and Class by Angela Davis

This Bridge Called My Back, editors Cherríe Moraga, Gloria Anzaldúa; foreword, Toni Cade Bambara

Anyways, transandrophobia is about the fear of men as it affects trans men. That is not systemic or structural, but social. And when used right I think it's a fine word (not someone that thinks only systemic words deserve to exist), and I mourn the fact nobody uses it as the creator wished for.

But trans-misogyny functionally is on a different level. It doesn't mean "transfem oppression" or anti transfemininity, it is about the systemic and structural oppression against people transgressing the patriarchy towards femininity in some way. Transphobia (oppositional sexism) X traditional sexism (femininity & womanhood being less-than) intersecting into one thing. And this happens BECAUSE our class under the parriarchy inherently is defined BY transgressing towards femininity/womanhood. You cannot seperate transphobia and misogyny against us. OFC other transfeminists can explain this better but I am me and I try my best.

Transandrophobia is, like transmisogyny, an intersection of transphobia x misogyny. But it's different. The misogyny from transmisogyny (which I never implied was simply anti-transfemininity, though I’m unsure if you're adding on or arguing against me) largely comes from what you said. The misogyny referenced in transandrophobia, on the other hand, comes from the desire to keep "women" (trans men) in their place. Their masculinity is a threat because, like trans women, they are defying the patriarchy.

Most people, that I’ve seen, use transandrophobia to mean the intersection between transphobia and misogyny directed at people "supposed" to be feminine. I have never seen it used in reference to "manhood."

If transmisogyny cant be separated into "transphobia" and "misogyny", why is transandrophobia constantly forced to be?

Additionally, I don't understand how my post implied that I had a misunderstanding of transmisogyny as a structure of the patriarchy or an oppressive force.

I said that? Unless you mean something else

Transandrophobia is, like transmisogyny, an intersection of transphobia x misogyny.

Not even close

The misogyny referenced in transandrophobia, on the other hand, comes from the desire to keep "women" (trans men) in their place. Their masculinity is a threat because, like trans women, they are defying the patriarchy.

That's oppositional sexism aka transphobia in this case. And never what transandrophobia was to be about, want a word that's meant to be the transmasc version of trans-misogyny? isomisogyny is there. you shoot yourself in the foot the minute you subscribe to the bs of changing the definition every two seconds. you get nowhere.

Most people, that I’ve seen, use transandrophobia to mean the intersection between transphobia and misogyny directed at people "supposed" to be feminine. I have never seen it used in reference to "manhood."

Are you new here then? It's used essentially as "anything that harms trans dudes" - and i have people in my notes DAILY telling me manhood is an axis of oppression for marginalized men and that manhood creates it's own unique oppressions cuz *checks notes* intersectionality.

Yea, some people use it to describe transphobia. Some people use it to describe traditional sexism (reproductive care issues mainly being the first thought of many), but manhood/masculinity is generally discussed as something that is important to the conversation. 50/50 people argue that systemic misandry exists because they get social anti-masculinity fucking over certain marginalized groups confused with that point.

This isn't an inherent belief to the discussion of transandrophobia, it's a common ignorance that plagues it. Anyways yea the entire OG definition is about manhood, and people still use it to discuss manhood. The switch up of definitions between this or that genuinely makes meta comentary a bitch. /neu /nay

If transmisogyny cant be separated into "transphobia" and "misogyny", why is transandrophobia constantly forced to be?

Because usually people are discussing an axis of oppression that already has a name and is not unique at all. Trans-misogyny is structural and doesn't affect non-transfeminized people, that is a true thing that happens. But when you talk about misogyny or transphobia under a new name because of it's target it's largely useless. That's why people say "that's not new that's just X axis" - again, in it's original definition it at least explains a social concept that is unique and actually has a reason to exist. Rather than "misogyny against tguys" - that's just misogyny lol. Like it's not like transfems don't experience misogyny and transphobia as axes too! Trans-misogyny is it's own seperate thing. I'm not sure you get that?

You wanna discuss misogyny against trans dudes? Stop framing it as "misogyny against tguys"! Trans-misogyny exists because of a phenomenon observed and identified and named, not because we want a micro-word for "oppression when it's against X micro-group that experiences it". Then, read up on transfeminist theory & expand upon the conversations around how transmasculine people face oppositional sexism and traditional sexism and the way those interact there. You can do that, nobody's stopping you, they're criticizing your approach or your rhetoric not what you're trying to do. There's a difference.

Additionally, I don't understand how my post implied that I had a misunderstanding of transmisogyny as a structure of the patriarchy or an oppressive force.

I think it's more your Odd takes on what transandrophobia is then comparing the two that rubbed me weird.

Edit: yes I read the tags. Most people using transandrophobia aren't talking about manhood. They are talking about an intersection of transphobia and a specific kind of misogyny

"specific kind of misogyny" which would be?

That's oppositional sexism aka transphobia in this case. And never what transandrophobia was to be about, want a word that's meant to be the transmasc version of trans-misogyny? isomisogyny is there. you shoot yourself in the foot the minute you subscribe to the bs of changing the definition every two seconds. you get nowhere.

Yes, it is oppositional sexism. However, it goes far beyond that. Is the lack of gynecological care to the outright denial of it (due to MANHOOD), not an intersection of transphobia and misogyny? Is forced pregnancy with the goal of detransition not an intersection of transphobia and misogyny?

Rather than "misogyny against tguys" - that's just misogyny lol. Like it's not like transfems don't experience misogyny and transphobia as axes too! Trans-misogyny is it's own seperate thing. I'm not sure you get that?

First, transandrophobia often isn't used as just "misogyny againt tguys". Second, many posts about transmisogyny can EASILY be separated into transphobia OR misogyny, and yet people aren't in their comments going "thats just transphobia!" I understand it's a seperate thing, which is why I understand that it can't be as easily seperated into misogyny or trandphobia. Someone degendering a trans woman is both transphobia AND misogyny, just like someone degendering a trans man is transphobia AND misogyny.

You wanna discuss misogyny against trans dudes? Stop framing it as "misogyny against tguys"! Trans-misogyny exists because of a phenomenon observed and identified and named, not because we want a micro-word for "oppression when it's against X micro-group that experiences it".

How. Also, was transandrophobia not coined because a phenomenon without a name? and even if your latter point was true, why does that make it bad?

"specific kind of misogyny" which would be?

Misogyny focused on anti-masculinity, as I said here: "The misogyny referenced in transandrophobia...comes from the desire to keep "women" (trans men) in their place. Their masculinity is a threat."

Finally, out of pure curiosity, what words would *you* be okay with trans men using to describe the specific oppression that faces them? For example: the pregnancy and gynecological stuff, as I mentioned; the misgendering by using misogynistic stereotypes; the erasure/invisibility; etc?

I do, truly, want to read transfeminist literature and build on the conversation regarding trans men/mascs. It's something I'm currently trying to do. However, many transmascs are currently trying to do this, and are largely ignored or forgotten.

Edit: do you have any recommendations for transfeminist literature? I can read them and write a response, if that's something you would like to see from me. Considering you want me to add to the conversation by doing so? /gen.

Anyways, transandrophobia is about the fear of men as it affects trans men. That is not systemic or structural, but social. And when used right I think it's a fine word (not someone that thinks only systemic words deserve to exist), and I mourn the fact nobody uses it as the creator wished for.

But trans-misogyny functionally is on a different level. It doesn't mean "transfem oppression" or anti transfemininity, it is about the systemic and structural oppression against people transgressing the patriarchy towards femininity in some way. Transphobia (oppositional sexism) X traditional sexism (femininity & womanhood being less-than) intersecting into one thing. And this happens BECAUSE our class under the parriarchy inherently is defined BY transgressing towards femininity/womanhood. You cannot seperate transphobia and misogyny against us. OFC other transfeminists can explain this better but I am me and I try my best.

Transandrophobia is, like transmisogyny, an intersection of transphobia x misogyny. But it's different. The misogyny from transmisogyny (which I never implied was simply anti-transfemininity, though I’m unsure if you're adding on or arguing against me) largely comes from what you said. The misogyny referenced in transandrophobia, on the other hand, comes from the desire to keep "women" (trans men) in their place. Their masculinity is a threat because, like trans women, they are defying the patriarchy.

Most people, that I’ve seen, use transandrophobia to mean the intersection between transphobia and misogyny directed at people "supposed" to be feminine. I have never seen it used in reference to "manhood."

If transmisogyny cant be separated into "transphobia" and "misogyny", why is transandrophobia constantly forced to be?

Additionally, I don't understand how my post implied that I had a misunderstanding of transmisogyny as a structure of the patriarchy or an oppressive force.

Have facial hair

Don’t shave

Are butch/masc/studs

Have a uterus and/or ovaries

Don’t use she/her pronouns

Don’t take hormones or take ones that aren’t estrogen

Are muscular or fat

Don’t have dysphoria

Describe their trans experience different to the “official” (see: coined in 2011) definition of transgender

Don’t abide by a western white binary definition of womanhood and femininity

You do not care about trans women and transfems.